Now You Can Get a Reverse Mortgage in Tennessee, with Jackson Matheson

0:03 I've been in real estate for decades. I never gave much thought to how do the real estate industry start? Like who was there? How did it come to be that we did certain types of loans and sales and products? I was really intrigued when I met one of the top reverse mortgage originators in the country who was also instrumental in helping get the law passed to allow that product in his state, the state of Tennessee. We're excited today to have Jackson Matthison, who's with Fairway Home Mortgage, recently rebranded. Jackson, thanks for joining us.

0:31 Appreciate it, Bill. Thanks. Look forward to it. So, like one day there were no reverse mortgages in Tennessee and the next day there was? Yeah, so there were reverse mortgages here. There just were not proprietary reverse mortgage products. We had pretty restrictive laws around that. The Tennessee law that was in existence only allowed two kinds of reverse mortgages. It was an FHA HECM, which is, you know, the most common type of reverse mortgage and most of the time people say reverse today, that's what they're referring to. There was also Fannie Mae HomeKeeper loans that were allowed, but those were discontinued in 2008. So, effectively, for the last 15 years or so, the state had was the market was only allowed to offer one type of product. And so that's really what ended up happening. So.

1:15 So, you can have any kind of reverse mortgage you want in Tennessee as long as it was a HECM. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. The old reverse mortgage if you follow this podcast, I've had a number of guests on who work for reverse companies with new products. One of the things that's exciting my thesis on this podcast has been that as an economy we should be doing 10 times the reverse mortgages we are, but for lack of education and the bad reputation. And in this case getting innovative products that more suit customers is critical. So, what first off, I guess if you're in state that doesn't have other products, how do you become aware of the other proprietary products? And why do you think it's so important for the residents of Tennessee to have access to?

1:53 Yeah, I think well, I mean really the catalyst for the whole thing was I was just I originally was in Texas when I started. I moved to Tennessee a few years ago. My wife is from here, so we've been living here almost 5 years now and I just, you know, made the transition to reverse about 4 years ago and just throughout the course of my business I started getting referrals for loans that were here in the Nashville area. They were too high for the FHA loan limit. And then I knew that there were proprietary products available, kind of started poking around asking why and it was like, oh, they're not allowed in your state. And it's kind of just, why is that? Why is that? Why is that? Kept going and once I had three or four I ended up getting three or four like kind of in Q4 of 2024 roughly and I was like, somebody's got to do something about this. And so I just kind of decided I was going to change state law. I didn't really know what that meant or how to do it and I just started telling people I was going to do that and then just by you know, a series of fortunate events, feel like God put some people in my life and ended up working very closely with the Tennessee Mortgage Bankers Association, got some support there and ended up writing a draft that eventually just passed, was signed by the governor back in May. So these to me like the most exciting part of this is not even, I mean, the original win is to get those products available just to give us more flexibility and more products to offer to the marketplace.

3:15 The main benefit is the is I would say the jumbo capability but can also just have more flexibility in terms of qualifying somebody for like paying off debt or something like that. Certain condo, you know, places are not going to be HUD approved. So it just gives more flexibility to potentially qualify some more people or just be a little bit more niche in the planning for how you apply home equity into whatever problem you're trying to solve for the individual. And so I think that's exciting but really for me it's all like forward-thinking as well. That I just think over time we're in agreement that I would actually say 10 times is low. I mean I like we're very much in agreement that this is probably the most underutilized, most misunderstood product in the entire mortgage space and greater financial services planning space as well. And as it grows in popularity, there will be more demand and then more competition and then more innovation and you know, there's just going to be more and more. I'm more I'm almost more excited about how what the reverse mortgage products are going to look like 10 to 20 years from now compared to what they are today. You know, to me that's what that's what I'm most excited about.

4:27 What seems like with technology moving so quickly, so powerfully that and you see things being disintermediated and changed and you know, new companies coming in taking a huge piece of business a little slice of the whole pie that reverse mortgage seems to be perfectly suited to customize something and I'm sure there'll be various attempts at that. Now, I live in California. Nobody ever in California woke up and said I'm going to change the law other than politicians cuz they get paid a lot of money to do that. I'm guessing we didn't talk about this. I'm just going to take a wild guess here that you had one client that could have got another product but for the fact you're in Tennessee. And that maybe was the spark that started. Is that is that sound you know, accurate?

5:13 Yeah, I had Yeah, I actually had two or three scenarios and even now over the last 18 months I've got probably six or eight people that I'm in the process of reaching back to that originally could not qualify or couldn't get enough money out with a heckumnet. Potentially proprietary school will be able to help. So I mean that was certainly the catalyst but it was also just I really want to be kind of a force for good within the industry. Some of that is doing business the right way, treating people the right way and you know, educating people how to do how to use reverse mortgages efficiently, effectively, safely, appropriately. But then some of it is also just kind of policing and improving the industry yourself and just being involved. And that's not something I ever really had done anywhere else, but just kind of got me fired up and just got involved and learned a lot throughout the journey of like kind of how state and local politics works and things like that, too. So, it was just it was an educational experience for me as well. I was frustrating at times, but it got done and I'm grateful for the experience. So.

6:16 You mentioned that you focus on reverse mortgages. What does that mean you know, in terms of your practice and preparation or education? Yeah, so I mean just from a business perspective, 100% of my time is spent prospecting reverse. That's like exclusively what I do. I would say from my actual business perspective, it's about 80%. Last year was my first year doing more reverse than forward business. It was 2 to 3-year journey to kind of switch over the transition into the reverse space and I'm trending towards more and more reverse and that's where I want to go. And the reason for that is I just I just love financial strategy. I see the opportunity. I see the potential for this. I like I kind of like having a fight to cause for or cause to fight for a little bit where it's like when I said this is a misunderstood, underutilized product, it's like just not very many people to include not even a you know, through my own like even most loan officers don't know like traditional loan officers don't know much about reverse mortgages. And most of the time they will only refer to reverse if they can't qualify somebody on a on a forward 30-year fixed when it's like to me the vast majority of the time, I don't want to say 100% of the time, but you'd have a really hard time convincing me mathematically or strategically or just common sense wise why somebody who's 65 or 70 or 75 years old would be better off with a 30-year fixed mortgage or a HELOC than a reverse mortgage.

7:42 And you know, and again, mostly the home equity conversion mortgage, but you know, sometimes these proprietary products can play can play a role as well, depending on what problem you're trying to solve. So, that's what I love doing.

7:53 I imagine for you to make that kind of change, that along the way you either had a mentor and or some systems, procedures, programs that helped you know, learn, educate, you know, find comrades, colleagues in the space. Can you talk a little bit about what resources helped you go from where you were to where you are now?

8:09 Yeah, well, I mean, it started at my company in Fairway. I've always enjoyed financial strategy, and when I first got into the business, they had like an internal Fairway webinar just for like from a financial advisor giving a presentation about different financial strategy. I didn't even know it was about reverse mortgages, and at the time I was married, but I didn't have any kids, and I was like, I'm not doing anything Wednesday night at 7:00, so I hopped on this call, and it ended up being 15-20 minutes kind of talking about how a reverse mortgage can play a little bit of you know, can be a useful strategy or tool to employ a strategy, maybe would be a better way of saying that. Useful lever to pull to employ a strategy in retirement to have just a more efficient outcome. Same individual with the same assets, but we're just going to we're going to have a more efficient or, you know, a more efficient outcome or a more efficient retirement. And I listened to this, I was like, that's the coolest thing I've ever heard. And my first thought was the first question my head was like, what's a reverse mortgage? And I was that's the story. I love telling that story because it's just like, I was in the business almost 18 months probably at that point. Hadn't even heard reverse mortgage. And so, and this was back in like 2021, I think. You know, towards the tail end of kind of the COVID spree is when I when I got in, and so, that just sent me down this rabbit hole, and I just started reading articles that turned into research papers that turned into books, read, you know, a lot of Wade Fahl stuff, is probably most common I've read. Just some of the other producers in our industry have published books. I read some of their content. I was reading, you know, some of the research papers from Barry Sacks, and you know, a lot of people in our industry, like we're all familiar with like sort of the research that's been published over the last 10 years.

9:53 And I just kept reading about that more and more and more, and I went through Fairway's certification process, and to start doing reverse, and then just kind of started this transition, and I'm talking to anybody who will listen about it ever since.

10:05 You know, I've had, you know, I think every major company on my podcast, so I don't have a dog in the hunt. And when companies do good, I want to encourage that and recognize that. And Fairway, fun fact, the first originator I interviewed about reverse mortgages was a Fairway agent, Martha Shanks out of the LA County area in West Covina. But I never really followed up with her or got her back on to the podcast, but from there I but I've known Fairway forward originators when I was in that in that market more. You know, we're top producers in my area, great resources. I know the company to be solid for a long time. You know, this is not a company that just came out of the woodwork one day. They've been around doing a good job, and has some really solid forward originators I know, and I've now had a chance to bring you on as well. And they've gone with a program that certifies. Now, some companies say either you're reverse or you're not. And other ones say you can be a forward originator and then add the reverse mortgage as long as you Some just don't do whatever they want. Yeah. That's what I'm trying to get rid of. And I think that companies either need to have a separate division or a certification program to move originators along like you, because I think we need more, but we don't need more bad ones. We need more a few more good ones. So, talk a bit about what did they certify? Was it just a rubber stamp they gave you so you could put on your business card, or was there actual training and information you picked up?

11:26 Yeah, no, there was actual training, and it was it was pretty in-depth. I want to say it was 8 or 10 hours specifically towards reverse specifically. And obviously, some of that was compliance but a lot of that was just understanding the products and kind of greater holistic planning. I personally gone beyond that tremendously myself and you know people ask me what do you do for hobbies and I go well I got three kids under five and I work and I parent and then for fun most of the time I'm reading finance books about this stuff too, you know, it's like I'm kind of like obsessed about that. So yeah, I mean Fairway does I would say kind of have a hybrid where nobody's originating a reverse without being certified. We also have a pretty substantial like leadership team and support team for that and then your first several loans you are being hand walked through that process as well but nobody is advertising or originating a reverse mortgage if Fairway is not who's not been appropriately trained and he's not

12:21 So important. I think it's so important. One of the things that you know turned me off to it would be I would get calls from you know a real estate agent, I'm a listing agent and I get calls from originators who talk about the product and I and I knew a little bit about it. I'd been a originator the first part of my career. I'd done two of the old type of reverse mortgages the fair the freedom I think they were called financial freedom ones done in the I think in the late 80s early 90s and so I knew you know the basics some of the basics and when I would ask an originator he would just fold like a house of cards and that creates such a bad reputation for a product that already has a bad reputation. What we really need are to get the best of the best of the reverse world in front and that's really the really the purpose I launched this podcast was to say if we're going to make a change we better get the best people involved and highlight them and say there's a distinction and I get not all your success or all your training maybe not even a majority is from the company's certification program but at least they have that. Like you got to give them credit that there's a gatekeeping going on within your company. So I want to again shout out to Fairway for maintaining that standard. Is that the right way to go versus separate divisions? I don't know but it's better than most companies and it's you know, I met several like you that are I think very professional, and I think that's important.

13:32 Yeah, no, I totally agree, and you know, every company can kind of make their own decision, but I am a firm believer that if you're not going to take it seriously, you shouldn't be doing it. And I will say most loan officers that I met at Fairway and even at other companies, they kind of self-select out of like, you know, I know that I know that I don't know much about reverse, and so I would rather just refer it or let somebody else handle that because you're right. I mean, it's the up the uphill battle for everybody in our industry is just kind of going against the stigma or these deep-seated like old outdated information that's either not true anymore or was never true and it's just kind of you know, your uncle in 1987 said, "Don't ever do a reverse mortgage. The bank's going to steal your house." And you know, and that you know, I've certainly heard horror stories throughout my journey. Some that have like truly moved me to tears. But the business has been completely re-regulated since the 08 global financial crisis to Dodd-Frank to the reverse mortgage stabilization act and so on. Like the you know, things have moved a lot. I always use the example of the Wright brothers flying the first airplane. It's like we've all flown on airplanes, and it didn't look anything like the glorified kite that the Wright brothers were using at Kitty Hawk. Now we're just sending people around the moon in the spaceship, you know? I mean, like the technology's come a long way.

14:49 Yeah. And so from the first reverse mortgage back in the '60s to the first HECM back in the '80s to today, we're just not talking about the same thing. And yeah, it's just really important that we have, I agree, trained professionals, and I think just anybody who considers themselves a professional should always be learning and growing and trying to stay up-to-date and current. And again, that motivation is a big part of why I'm constantly reading and refining my craft, and it's why kind of just got fired up to go change Tennessee state law and ended up working. So, that's crazy.

15:21 Good for you. I you know, again, I see way too many that are forward originators who stumble on the idea. It's on the rate sheet, so why not go and I literally get a phone call from my best friend's aunt's neighbor. And she goes, "I watched your podcast and I thought you said this, but the guy said this." And you know, he tells me I can't even qualify for like 10% loan to value. And I said, "Something's just not right." I knew a guy in her area. I said, "No, that's I can't do a loan, but I know somebody who can." And she come back like in tears. She's so appreciative because this is you know, this is really it This These are times that people can't make mistakes. Like there's no more time. You know, you're 70 years old and you're making major financial decisions. You know, if you don't get enough money and you start liquidating assets and paying taxes on it, that could be disastrous financially. Especially if you live longer now and who knows how that goes. So, I'm very passionate about this and it's really important to me. So, let's talk about then, what do you do to Only back up. Are you licensed just in Tennessee? I know Fairway operates, you know, I think in all 50 states.

16:23 Yeah, Tennessee is like I think we're number five, four or five or six. We're like kind of, you know, of the in just in the reverse space and in the total mortgage bank. I mean, we're all 50 states. We're a very large several thousand employee company. And then on the reverse side as well, we're I think around number four or five or six, something like that in like the national origination. So, we have all 50 states. I personally have Tennessee, Texas, and Washington state and I'm planning to add a handful more states this year as well as just as I've sort of my influence has grown, I've been getting more and more prospects from different places. So, I'm just kind of been gradually adding in some more.

17:04 And now you have a lot of past in Tennessee. What are you doing to help promote your you know, image, your opportunities, your you find people who can work with you that you can help them.

17:14 Yeah, so I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. I write a lot on LinkedIn and again, kind of towards just trying to directly impact My target audience on LinkedIn is the financial planner community, the financial advisors. And so I'm just trying to constantly be publishing case studies or just kind of thought-provoking questions or just re- reframing the way that the industry looks at that from a from a proactive planning perspective, not a reactive loan of last resort, the plan failed perspective. And so and that's kind of to your point about the lady you were talking about who kind of got a bad answer at first and then you know, it's like, the reality is, you know, we don't want this and the industry needs to pivot towards reverse mortgages proactively avoiding last resort scenarios rather than reacting to last resort scenarios. The reality is a lot of people who were that we're interacting with are frequently kind of on the doorstep of you know, we don't have very many options. So sometimes you have to be able to solve problems and solve them quickly.

18:19 Right. Before, you know, cuz we got I just had a lady like 2 months ago who was you know, her husband had unexpectedly passed away and basically was like, I got enough money to get to you know, the end of next month and like, you know, that's those scenarios really, you know, pull your heartstrings a little bit and they're and they're hard and gladly you know, luckily we were able to help her out and get her the payment for and get her a little extra money and just get her back on her feet where she's got a position where she can, you know, fight for herself going forward. But sometimes it's sometimes it's too late, you know.

18:53 Speaking of too late, one of the areas I get involved with reverse mortgages is after the borrower has passed. And this is this is why another reason I launched this podcast was increasingly I was getting phone calls where, you know, son was living in the house helping the father, the remaining of the two spouses and then they died and he hadn't made payments, didn't have to didn't have to make payments, he thought. And then, you know, ignores the mail, and then one day gets the, you know, we're going to put a notice of default. Now, California is different than other states where most servicers just race to foreclose and force the family to apply. And, you know, if the property is named in the decedent in California, that requires a probate. Now, in some states it doesn't, there's other shortcuts, and but if you have to go through a probate in California, that's a whole process. And that's regulated, and I look at that and say, that's the failure of the originator to get involved in that family, because of course they should know, oh, we have a reverse mortgage, but it's not a problem. As soon as dad or mom pass, we need to get right on the phone and get a game plan together with our, you know, with Jackson or whoever did the loan with them. Talk about what our options are. And so, and I also know and then enough of these now, with the HECM loans, that the borrowers receiving a letter every year to verify their qualification. And so I say to myself, well, why are companies not Why originators not making sure they call, like when that letter goes out, the week before, the week after, involved in that process, as excuse to call them once a year? How many have any of them done? If you have you did three If you did 200 mortgages in your career, that's just one of work days, not that much work.

20:26 But we don't do that as an industry. And what happens is too often the gap between what to do and who to help who can help me with it is too big. So, talk a bit about kind of what you've seen in that area. I'm sure it's one of the negatives that in the course of getting this law passed, you heard I'm sure heard stories, maybe exaggerated, about people threatening to lose their home, thinking they're going to lose their home. What do we do as an industry, or what do you do to help families avoid the emergency and maybe just have the plan set up ahead of time?

20:52 Yeah, I mean, that's a really loaded question. The answer is every scenario is a little bit different for this one. I mean, to I hesitate to do this, to defend my industry slightly, I would say it's a very hard thing to do at scale. Because if you think about when a reverse mortgage is opened or like when it when it when you start one like it might be in place for 5, 10, 15, 20 years down the road. People might sell and move to another house. Like there might be changes there. There are family estrangements that happen. There are you know, attorneys or financial advisors that get fired or that retire or whatever. And so I will say that the you know, we as professionals are always trying to do what we can to help people avoid problems and proactively manage those things. But at the end of the day like every individual is also responsible for their for their own situation. Now, for me personally when I'm talking to clients or new prospects, I'm always asking them number one, I'm a collaboration guy. Number two, yes, I sell this product, but what I really sell is my knowledge and information for how this product's going to help your home improve your holistic plan. And so if you have a financial advisor, I want to talk to them. If you have an accountant, I want to talk to them. If you have your oldest kid who's helping you make financial decisions or going to be part of your care situation, I want to help them. The last thing that the worst thing that can happen from my perspective is that you go to your annual review with your financial advisor and you say I got a reverse mortgage and he says, what? You know, like that's not I don't want that to happen because I want to work with the financial advisor and make sure that everybody's on the same page. And the more people that know what's happening, we don't want financial advisors after the fact finding out that they had that their clients got a reverse mortgage cuz then it's not going to be working appropriately in conjunction with the rest of the plan. And we don't

22:55 Want kids finding out at the funeral that there was a reverse mortgage thinking they were going to get X instead they're getting Y or they have this other thing. But as long as all that stuff is clearly communicated,

23:05 Right. I very much believe in the fact that you can have a much better, more sophisticated, more efficient, safer, longer retirement appropriately using reverse mortgages than not. And it just it just takes a lot of a lot of communication and proactive problem-solving and things like that to try and make that happen. And it's but it's way easier said than done, you know. It's way easier said

23:29 Well, I do I mean it what you're doing isn't easy. It's work you're supposed to do. And I'd say less than half of originators do any of that. That's really where the problem lies. I think when you're a big company with a hundred call center, you're not going to do it because they don't really care. I mean they're not involved with the person. They're just selling loans and selling businesses and making investments. And yet the other originators, like you say, it is a long-term investment of time. But, this is what builds a business and a career rather than just commission and a job today. And then where's my next deal going to come from? And I think I again, one of the purposes of this podcast is to highlight those originators who do these best practices and to challenge or inspire the rest to say, "Hey, you need to step up. You know, your client should never be in foreclosure. That's a failure on your part." Now, it doesn't mean you can control it. Doesn't mean you should commit suicide if it happens. It just means you need to take responsibility for allowing that to happen. The client didn't get the result they should have got. And what can you do to improve your system to stay in touch with them better? And again, that's really where you know, I fell out and wanted to highlight best practices because this is it's just it holds back as an economy, we need to unlock that equity. And this holds us back from taking advantage of it. Of course, I'm preaching to the choir here. So, and I'm Jewish, so I'm preaching to the choir.

24:44 So, I didn't need to stop there. Okay. So, I was amazed to find I'm just curious I'm not sure how tied into you are to the overall industry. I was amazed to find out recently there were less reverse mortgages done in 2025 than 2024. Like I would have thought for sure we're doing more of them. I imagine it's because of interest rates. It's very interest sensitive product. But with 10 times more potential business, I would think that would slow down the growth. What am I missing? Why are Why How could the industry go backwards?

25:16 Yeah, that's a great question. I my podcast? Did I do it? Is it my fault? I've asked I've asked the same question myself to myself and to other people in the industry, within my company, within even outside the company, at conferences and things. I know that I have cuz you're just looking at the data going like what's not adding up? Like why are not way more people using this? Especially given the amount that interest rates have gone up, the amount that inflation has gone up. I mean, you look at the net worth and asset allocation for a median or a mean, you know, your average baby boomer retiree in America. And the amount the numbers of car loan defaults, the number of credit card debt increasing, and all this other stuff. You're like, how are people not going, you know, turning to this? And I And I really believe it's a lot of It's more psychological than anything else. Number one, I would say most people are not against reverse mortgages or against what they think reverse mortgages are, and that, you know, like the very first assumption that they make is wrong about what the product is. Number one. And then number two, because of what they think it is, who they think it's for, which is It's for anybody that's not me, you know?

26:42 It's like cuz because the reality is that I don't even want to joke about this, but the reality is most people over the age of 65 view needing to get a reverse mortgage is like shameful or embarrassing. And usually what I tell people is like, "Look, I work with a lot of financial planners who either have told me that they already have a reverse mortgage. These are multi-millionaires in some cases, eight-figure net worth individuals who have reverse mortgages on their house currently or will as soon as they are old enough. They're in their 50s now. So like there is a segment of the industry that is understanding that there is a legitimate play here and you know who you're talking to and who the client is and what their needs are totally dictates what do I use it for. But the reality is like everybody owns a home. Everybody's like I think that is the single biggest argument for reverse mortgage utilization is I'm not we're not debating do I put money in a brokerage account or a 401k or buy life insurance or do the like all these other people are arguing with opportunity costs. I'm like, "You already own the home. It's there. The money's there, you know?" I don't have to argue that opportunity cost piece with them because it's in it to me it just doesn't make any sense to not be utilizing that or at least be very aggressively pursuing opportunities for like how could how could this be used strategically just for a better outcome.

28:09 Or this considered. I think the thing that I find is people like you say aren't even aware of that's an option to think about. I was one of those. I when I started this podcast, like the second third episode at the time I was looking to buy a condo in Florida. Living in LA, married with my daughter's married with three grandsons under five. So somebody I know your household looks like cuz I'm there every day with my wife and

28:31 It's chaos. We're hanging in. We're doing good. It's control chaos. A lot of fun. Wouldn't miss it for anything. My youngest is three months. So I we're like We're new

28:40 Your youngest is three. To three. Yeah. We're ahead of you but it just means bigger problems at this age. So and the three of them conspiring together. You can see all that working out. They're all boys. That's all the whole thing.

28:51 Yeah. But You know, I was looking to maybe to buy a condo in Florida, make it my residence for tax purposes. You know, we're empty nesters. We're not going to move physically cuz we're close to the grandkids. But I can make them my primary residence. I work I work out of my home office. I can make, you know, find a condo and do that there. And then the kids would come to Florida a couple times a year and kind of make that work and come back to California for maybe, you know, less than half a year. So, I was looking to do that. And I had, you know, a certain amount of free cash. And I just couldn't find something that was, you know, attractive enough that I would consider doing that. I was talking to a friend of mine who said, "Well, have you considered a reverse mortgage?" And I thought, "Well, why would I do that?" He said, "Well, you're purchasing." And I said, "Okay, why would I do that?" He said, "Because you can get a lot more purchasing power." I was I was looking at about 500,000 for a condo. He said, "Well, you could probably buy an 800 or an 850 with the same cash. And now you have a nice place." Cuz I just wanted a little bigger, a little nicer than I was seeing. And I didn't know this. I'm a real estate agent. I'm thinking, "How do I not know that? How do I not know that?" Or that there were there lines of credit that people I have clients who have a million, two million dollars paid off house. I didn't know that they should be getting lines of credit. There are such products. They have to pay the closing costs to have it. But what a great safety tool to have. What a great opportunity to use something. So, I didn't know this. I think part of it is we said to talk about it more and get out there.

30:14 Yeah. No, I totally agree. And I kind of the way that I try and approach this for people a lot is like just trying to get them to under I think a lot of people they're just on autopilot. It's just so ingrained in them that if I'm financing a house, I'm getting a 30-year mortgage. And if I have a house, the goal is to pay it off. And I think where people really think about why they want those things. Like why those are like the popular or like just a cookie-cutter solutions. People get 30-year mortgages because they want low payments. Right? It's definitely not because they want to pay off the house efficiently or minimize the dollars of interest that they pay. The amortization is a you know, you're paying mostly interest the first 5 to 10 years anyways.

31:01 Right. And you're not So, people get 30-year mortgages because they want low payments. It's like, well, the required payment on a reverse mortgage principal interest payment on a reverse mortgage is zero. So, if you want a low payment, there's no contest, you know? And then in terms of like having a paid-off house, what does that get you? The answer is no mortgage payment. And so, it's like a reverse mortgage to me is like literally having your cake and eat it, too. It's splitting the difference of I can retain liquidity or gain liquidity in a house that was not liquid before and not have a required payment.

31:32 Right. And then the next thing that I reframe for people is that we spend our whole lives and accumulate you people got to got to switch put the switch from accumulation to distribution. Right? When you're employed versus retired, it's a completely different mindset. And people have to be able to flip the switch from if I borrow money, I pay it back. Whether it's credit cards, student loans, cars, a house. If I borrow money, I pay it back. If I borrow money, I pay it back. And it feels like you're operating left-handed, you know? It's just very counterintuitive to say, "Oh, I'm not going to make a payment." The way that I reframe that for people that has worked for most is you are making the payment. The payments are technically deferred. So, the mortgage balance is growing. It's all going to be paid back whenever you sell the house or pass away. But what you're really doing is you're just changing the asset that's making the payment for you. And rather than taking money from a 401k or your brokerage account or your social security income, your W-2 income, paying taxes on that and then making a mortgage payment that's mostly interest, and then depositing the rest of the principal into an illiquid asset that it goes grow very much, it's like we're just switching the asset to this home that I own is now going to cover the payment for me. And that's what a reverse mortgage does effectively is the house co-signs on the loan. That's how I started describing it. Think about your principal, interest, taxes, and insurance.

32:50 The house is co-signing on the principal and interest component. It will just pay it back whenever you sell the house. You're still responsible for your taxes and insurance. And whether you have a mortgage or not, you're responsible for your taxes and insurance. You know, I mean that those are the those are the responsibilities of a homeowner, not a mortgage.

33:05 Cool. Right. And so when you start framing it, I think that way, I've started to have more traction just kind of getting people to realize like, this is not irresponsible to not make payments. It's actually smart and strategic to make it to make the payments with my house than it is you know, now I'm using my house to pay my mortgage and I'm using my 401k to pay for my lifestyle rather than money from my 401k to my house. And that's the whole I mean, the loan of last resort concept in general. Like, this is the red button nuclear option. Everything goes to hell in a handbasket. We are all out of options and all we have left is to tap the house. I mean, I can rip that to shreds without even talking about the numbers or Wade Pfau's research or Barry Sacks like any of the other financial research that's been done to prove that's mathematically not true. I mean, just conceptually, it defies common sense in my opinion. The main one being planning is by definition proactive. And so if you're part of your plan is well, if this plan doesn't work, then we're going to turn to this, that's crazy. It's like, why don't you just build a plan that's more likely to work? You know what I'm saying? I mean, you just especially when again, all the research points to proactive utilization is going to yield a much better long-term sustainable option than reactively, I have no other I have no other options and I'm just trying to get it cuz when you put your when you paint yourself in a corner like that, you just you just have way less flexibility and options.

34:40 Well, I think at least consider the tool. I mean, it's one thing to say it doesn't fit when you run the numbers, you look at the numbers, you can make your own assessment for your situation or your a financial planner, you can make an assessment. But if you don't run the numbers or call Jackson to help you run the numbers on the situation, then you're just making an uninformed decision and clients are paying us in most cases good money to make decisions based on the data, not just based on our gut, our feelings, or emotions, or what our experience was. Well, look, obviously, Jackson, we could talk about this for a long time. I've taken a little over time as it is. So, I have to be a little mindful that Thank you so much for I think really number one bringing the proprietary products to the state of Tennessee and congratulations on your involvement with that. Congratulations on your pivoting into a reverse mortgage origination. I'd love to see what we can do to help make another 500,000 of you around the country and maybe within Fairway system. If you're out there an originator, if there's something I can do to help, let me know. I'm building this podcast to create more Jacksons. That's exactly what as a country we need to see happen for our economy. Thanks so much. If you want to get more information, reach out to him, talk to him about whether it makes sense for you as a reverse mortgage borrower or as a as a professional to add this product to your list. Here's his contact information. He's a reverse mortgage specialist with Fairway Home Mortgage, recently branded. [phone number]. If you can't write that down cuz you're listening, feel free to reach out to me. I'd be honored to make the connection and his website mathesonhomeloans.com will take you to his smiling face and all the contact info and you'll get everything you need.

36:05 Jackson, again, congratulations on the move you made and thank you so much for spending time today with our audience to talk about reverse mortgages. Thanks, Bill. I appreciate it.

36:14 And Oops, I cut him off. For the rest of you, this is Reverse Mortgage Podcast. That was a fun. You know, I to talk to me actually made the law in the state is just pretty amazing. But I think more importantly, this is what has to happen in this industry. We need more good originators and many of them come from the regular or forward mortgage market. We need many more in the reverse space. Fairway seems to have a good program for that. Some other big companies do as well. Let's see make sure that we encourage them and apply their successes when we can. If I can help in any way, please reach out. I'm at Bill Gross Mortgage on social I'm sorry, I'm at Bill Gross Probate on social media. I love you to like this, share this, comment on it. If I can help in any way, as always, make today your best day ever.