Collaboration in Reverse Mortgage Lending, with Loren Riddick

0:03 When I launched this podcast about 2 years ago, I did because as Americans, we should be doing, in my opinion, 10 times the reverse mortgages that we are. We should have people unlocking equity in their home, able to invest it, build, improve their homes, improve their lives, live their lives, live with dignity, help their families, all the good stuff that comes from being productive, efficient, and free. And we don't. And last We actually did last reverse mortgage. So here I did this podcast, we're going in the backwards. So, really excited to have today a guy who I think is maybe as convicted as I am on this passion of trying to do more. His focus is more helping forward engineers or I would call regular loan officers get into the space, take it on at a professional standard, raising the service levels of the industry to provide value for our customers. Loren Riddick, he is a CRMP, a certified reverse mortgage professional. He also has website reversewisdom.com. Loren, thank you so much for joining us today on the podcast.

1:04 Oh, Bill, look, man, it's I'm honored to be with you, my friend, and been looking forward to getting on your very tight schedule for a while, man, and I appreciate it. And you know, for those of you that don't know Bill, I mean, listen, and also I'm proud to be on my fourth year on the board of directors of the National Reverse Mortgage Lenders Association with NRMLA. And I see RMP, but I got to tell you, Bill is a top-notch pro, well-known in and out of our arena. So, Bill, we thank you for all you do for our industry, man. It's just It's an honor to be here today, and we definitely concur. We want to grow this thing and help many people with this amazing program.

1:43 And I think that in a industry of real estate and mortgages, where so many originators, so many real estate agents who are related tangentially to this business are struggling with a with business. Now, I'll say I've I a great year, and things have been going really well. And I think it's kind of kind of focus on helping people, but I see this as such an open opportunity, and yet, like I said, last year we did first mortgage as the year before. So, let's start off with that. What is it we're doing wrong that this amazing tool that you and I look at, we know it's not even that people are rejecting, they're not even aware of this tool. What are we doing that this tool isn't even being reviewed by more people, let alone used by people who we know should be taking advantage of it?

2:28 Well, you know, I tell you, it is what keeps us up at night, right? But, it also motivates us we had you know, Harlan I think we were on a call the other day, and you know, he wrote that Cinderella story of reverse, or I forgot the name of the title, a great book. And he said, "Hey, you know, reverse business is like being at Greek Week, being really the one of the only people providing the best cold beer in the yard, and no one even wants to come and get it. You know, it's like it they don't understand, you know? So, it's like I think there's a lot of I know there's a lot of ignorance, you know, about the program. So, I think that's a barrier. You know, Bill always love you know, in fact, oftentimes we say, "Hey, look, let's talk about the elephant in the room, right? You know, what is a reverse, and what it is not? And you know, if a real estate agent has a listing, and he or she determines there's 12 years left before a Wells Fargo's paid off, you know, there's a mortgage question, who owns the home until they pay it off? Client or bank? Well, most people, even in our business, forward and reverse in real estate, oh, well, the bank owns the house, like the sky's blue and sun is warm. And of course, we know that's not true. The bank doesn't own the home until foreclosure. There has to be a myriad of things that have to happen. Someone slips on a banana peel in the front porch, they don't sue Wells Fargo. Wells Fargo doesn't grant permission to remodel one's kitchen or home. And Wells Fargo doesn't sign listing agreement, purchase contract, or closing docs for Mr. And Mrs. Jones. And that universal truth most people don't understand.

4:17 And then even when we help them understand at least as far as HECM goes, that FHA insures this amazing program. So, that's the characteristic. Long and the short of it is it's not a snake oil voodoo thing. So, I think number one, there is an amount of ignorance. As an industry, where do we fail the most? You know, listen, ego is edging God out. And Bill, I know you and I want no part of big ego. But the fact of the matter is there's just not a lot of frontline mentors to help, especially in the forward space or in a reverse space. But, you know, if you think about it, someone could go to every single reverse mortgage class that all of our investors, you know, present. They could read every book. They could go to every conference. And in my opinion, their learning curve is still much more than a join that loan officer at the point of sale at the kitchen table virtually or in person.

5:38 Because the classroom only prepares you so much. Those life stories that we have, you know, if you can plug in with a mentor, you know, that's one thing that I you know this is not a NexGen Reverse plug, but one of the things I am super proud about is that we have an open door bill so that if someone wants to come in and partner with Reverse, we focus on the D to G for them, not the A to Z. So we give them support on the front and the back so they can kiss the babies and shake the hands and focus on the two to $300 hour work, not the caught up in the details kind of work. And so what we do and what I encourage everybody to do is to try to find that mentor within your organization because unfortunately, Bill, just due to necessity, our AEs and we've got some great ones, man. I could name them, you know, our major players out there. Man, we just have some phenomenal AEs. But with respect, their main focus is to focus on the manufacturing process once the file gets in their room gets in their building, maybe smooth off the rough edges, but really manufacture that loan through processing and underwriting the very best in closing and funding the best way possible.

7:06 But when they're asked to step outside of that role, run quotes, do 100 quotes and close five of them. They're running a quote for a client that they've never spoken to.

7:24 Right. And maybe a loan officer that doesn't even really know what questions I ask. I sure didn't when I was learning. And then put themselves in a situation where they're going to go into the lion's den and hope that they don't get you know, a question that's not on their cheat sheet.

7:44 Right. Bill, one of my favorite Well, not favorite, but unfortunately one of the most common occurrences is I'll have the person that'll call me, Bill, and they'll go, "Hey, Loren, I think I've got a client that'll work." Great. You know, what time tomorrow or first week do you want to talk about it? Oh, no, you don't understand. I'm 5 minutes from their house. I'm about to meet their financial planner, their attorney, their children, and their you know, and I just need to know what to say. And you're laughing, you know what I'm talking about. So,

8:15 No, that's so true. For me, if I boil it down, why are we not doing better? Number one, there's just a stigma of ignorance that most people don't know about, and because there's not a lot of Bills and Lorens and other great players in the world, we don't have the ability to make the biggest impact that we want to, and frankly, that's why you know, that's why I came to Next Era. We have like 3,600 loan officers, and I'm like, if just one referral comes from one a year, what's that? 3,600 puts us like at number two in the whole industry. It's crazy. So, I think anything that you and I and the other people can do that we can come together and help bridge that gap. Whether that's having the reverse mastermind summits, the normal conferences, the great work that you do here on the podcast, the HECM World presentations, you know, and our beloved you know, investor partners, man, we all achieve more when we all do better. And so, I don't know if that's what you were looking for, but that's from the heart.

9:26 No, I get it. Look, you covered There's a lot there to unpack. So, let me let me try and break it down into some what you said into some individual pieces. Why we don't do more, and you said ignorance. So, there's two there's two challenges I as I see it. One is the industry doesn't do a particularly job of getting the product out in the marketplace. Right? You know, as Realtors® we have the National Association of REALTORS®, which you know, there's a lot of controversy, but at least there's an organization whose job is to promote you should buy a house. Right? There's a concept of buying a house. Where the first mortgage is, I think we don't have a concept that A, there's a product that helps you keep the home and unlock the equity that's available to you. As a as a real estate agent, you know, I see many customers who own a home free and clear that should have a line of credit make it reverse line of credit rather than a standard line of credit. There's advantages to that. Or a reverse mortgage with additional available credit line. Either one of those would be better than leaving all that equity on the table in many in many cases. All should look into it. Many should get it. And we don't do that. And so, let's talk a bit about why do you think it is that we accept we see a customer who owns a house free and clear.

10:45 Why would it not be natural to say at least have you considered a reverse mortgage? You're right, you have a financial planner, you have stocks, you have bonds, you have annuities, you have this, you have that. Good for you. You're not destitute, you're not eating dog food. Okay, good. We got to that level. Have you at least run the numbers with a professional? Why is that considered salesy and not a Well, that's a reasonable standard just like asking do you have homeowner's insurance? You know, if your mortgage is paid off, you don't need mortgage insurance or you don't need the insurance on your house, I guess, but you still should have it. It's still a good idea to get. Right? Why don't Why is that it in the idea that a house is free and clear is untapped potential unless you at least considered that. To me, I think we're missing that step.

11:28 Well, it's arguing religion, Bill. Well, I do that, so No, but well, if you think about it, like for those of you that don't understand what Bill and I are talking about right now, you're brand new to reverse, you're just trying to figure it out, you're going to have some headwinds. And some of those headwinds are going to be exactly what Bill's talking about. You're going to have the guy that's got the million-dollar home, completely paid off, 5 million in assets under management, who doesn't realize that they can set up a line of credit had no access to any of the credit, none, no equity, no access to it at all. All of it at risk to the nursing home housing bubble or market, and none can take with them. To So, to Bill's point, why would they not look at it? The numbers don't lie.

12:21 Right. You know, just look at it. I mean, they shouldn't get it. I mean, they shouldn't have it. They shouldn't even just look at it and consider that as an option. It's because you're arguing religion. You see, you got to understand, even I'm a fifth six year I'm a fifth generation East Tennessee fella.

12:37 Wow. But I've had I've traveled all over, you know, the last 27 years. I've been in mortgage banking 14, passionate about reverse. I know so much California market, which is really weird for East Tennessee guy. But the point is, regardless of where we go, for if you think about it, from our earliest recollection, Bill, what's the American dream? Get a home and pay it off. And leave it to the kids. Right? I mean, it's get the home paid off. So, think about it. I talk to clients all the time. And, you know, it And I do think it's shifting, Bill, because I think our greatest generation, the you know, a little older, you know, they may have the free and clear home, and it's a little more of a stress to help them go into you know, accessing some of that, but I found that it's getting easier because the baby boomer that's got the you know, million-dollar home that owes three, 400 grand, they realize that there's only one thing worse than having 6 to 700,000 equity, right? In that situation. What's that? Well, having more, right? They're And you show them options, but I think it's just it's just an ingrained belief, my friend, that takes a little bit of time, and I think the tide is turning. I think people are not as, you know, put the crucifix on you as soon as you start mentioning it.

14:10 But, you know, it's definitely it's definitely a pain in the butt that you want to help people, and they just don't get it sometimes.

14:19 Well, and I love Dave Ramsey, because I do think that he speaks to the vast majority of people. You know, his advice is great. And in truth, if you had no debt, you're certainly better off than if you have a bunch of debt. I mean, there's no there's no arguing that point. And America it's kind of like losing weight. Can you lose too much weight? I'm sure you can. I never have. And you won't don't want to advocate people to be anorexic. And so, there's a risk, but to tell people they should lose an extra 5 or 10 lbs is generally a good idea. That said, with all due respect to Uncle Dave, I think he's a he's also a fellow Tennessean, isn't he? He's a national, I believe. Anyhow,

14:58 It's not about whether your house is paid for and clear, it's what your net worth is, and what your income flow is, and what your assets are. And again, I can say at least just look at the numbers and roll that out. That's on the Dave Ramsey don't have a loan side. Then there's a whole 'nother piece of the puzzle that as a real estate agent, I didn't even know this. This is what I was talking to one of the originators on the podcast, and I was explaining to him how I was looking to buy a condo in Florida. Now, long story, we're not moving anywhere. I've got three grandsons 5 years or less within walking distance. We're not going anywhere. But, if I could buy a residence, make Florida my residence, avoid California taxes, I could move my license for a lot of my activity to Florida and save money as far as that goes. We were going to Florida every year for vacation. That adds up as well. And I was looking and I couldn't find enough with the money I had free to buy, couldn't buy enough. And the guy said, "What if you consider a reverse mortgage?" I thought, "Well, why would I do that? I don't need the money." He goes, "No. Instead of buying a $500,000 condo, with a reverse you can buy an $800,000 condo." I said, "Well, hold on. That makes sense. What? I'm a real estate agent. Why didn't I know that?" And the answer is reverse for purchase is really hard to do. Right? There's limited title companies. I think there's one guy, and I've been chasing after him for a couple weeks to get him on the podcast, and I haven't been successful yet. There's one guy that we know who just does it nationally.

16:23 Also, as a listing agent, when somebody calls and says they're going to do a reverse mortgage, I know what that means is there's a there's a whole education process and a whole preparation has to go on. But, the issue is not set to do that yet. Is it unreasonable to expect people to do reverse for purchase in numbers and quantity? Is that just too much work for agents, you know, to expect them to do? Or should we be lining people up and getting them ready to buy instead of paying cash, get the reverse in place, and have access to the cash in case you need it? Imagine moving across country. If there's ever a time you should have extra reserves, that would be the time to have extra reserves.

16:58 Yeah. First and foremost, the H4P or the reverse purchase is without question, non-debatable, it's always better than paying cash. Right? If you've got a If you've got the you know, $600,000 in cash, well, why not spend just 400,000 and keep the 200 grand or put 600 and buy a million. Either way, it's better than paying cash, right? So, that's I agree with you there. Can it be mass-produced? I absolutely in our model it can because, like I said, we control the narrative and we partner them with a very seasoned sales and back-end support. And I do think that it is a little bit more precarious, Bill, when you have a purchase because there's more on the line, but I do I think a good I think a really high-end originator that has a great account rep can get out in front of it, inspect what they expect, and do, you know, phenomenal things. I think undeniable. And you know, if the thing is with the real estate agents, we talked about it, there's three huge benefits, right? Number one, we have them understand what we led off with is when they do get that call that mother grandmother had a reverse, they don't automatically think, well, I hate that you got screwed. You know, there's no listing here, click, bye. You know, number one, yes, it is a listing because they never gave up ownership. So, take the call. Number two, what you alluded to, stretching the buying power

18:37 Yeah. Of a, you know, 600 to a 900 to 1.2. Well, that's undeniable. The client loves it. The Realtor®'s job is much easier because they're not putting the square peg in a round hole while all of their peers are struggling with the 600,000 number. And for the first time in the history of the mortgage game, Bill, we're positioned to get paid on cash deals. How amazing is that? But listen, if there's one thing, and I'm so thankful that you give me a chance to speak today with you and your group, and you and the massive people that watch this live and recording, is that there is a time when the home becomes a house. I believe that what I'm about to share the next 60 seconds is so phenomenal, it will be that driving force for awareness and for more people taking advantage of the program. Here it is. When the widow is there and she and I know you're up in Northern Cali, you know, Beverly or Southern Cali, Beverly Hills area, so probably not going to find that much for 600, but just bear with me. Let's say that someone has a $700,000 home, a widow and she owes 300 grand, Bill. She's paying at least $2,000 a month in principal and interest on fixed income on a home that has become a house. Due to stairs to climb, yard to mow, the grandkids are far away, but maybe most importantly, she's walking by her husband's favorite chair, he's not there anymore.

20:06 So, the home has become a house. She's a prisoner. She's never going to pay the $300,000 off. And if she has $400,000 in equity, 700 value, 300 mortgage, she has 400,000 equity, she cannot take with her, told at the risk of the market, nursing home, blah. Housing bubble. There's only one thing worse than that. What's that? Having more. As she makes a payment, all she's doing is making it for somebody else. Here's the key, Realtor®. You list the $700,000 home. You take the $400,000 in proceeds after paying off the 300 and now you facilitate a 6 to $800,000 purchase.

20:53 Right. With the H4P. Bill, we just showed that Realtor® partner how to get paid on not one, but two transactions to the tune of about 1.3 to 1.5 million save her life and yes, we're positioned to get paid on cash deals again. You know, or for the first time in the history of the game. So, yes, reverse purchase is the way. It can be done. And I think that you know, to your point, the real estate partners we're very passionate about doing real estate presentations. We have a Action Realty, which is like a sister company of us as far as the real estate side, and there's great collaboration there. But having the ability to talk to those seasoned real estate partners that are, you know, a little vintage like we are, it just makes sense for the Realtor® partner personally, and also for their practice. So, love the question, man.

21:54 Yeah, I do think that the reverse originators are you know, reverse repeat is at best minority for the most active reverse mortgage originator. And so, it is a challenge to sell the listing agent on accepting that loan, and you got to you have to work that. My daughter's buying a property here locally, or making offers on property locally, and her husband has a big client who's a mortgage originator, and turns out that originator is best friends with the listing agent on the house. Well, that helps a lot. If you're not best friends with them, you have to become the best friend with them. And I And I always tell, you know, a mortgage originator, the minimum standard service is you have to call the listing agent and get on the phone with them before the offer's accepted, cuz your part of your job is to help us get the offer accepted. And I'm not sure reverse mortgage originators aspire to that, because they're not getting referrals from Realtors® the way that forward originators do. So, there's a little which I think is short-sighted. You know, it is. It is. It's an opportunity. It's an opportunity. It's an opportunity, and I always feel like if you never are penalized for doing good for your client. You help your client get their house, it just the way life works, the business comes to you from out of space. You don't know where that is. That's the case you did extra phone call that you didn't have to do, but you did it cuz it was the right thing to do for your client. So, I think for all of the reverse mortgage engineers, I really challenge you to step up. And when somebody comes to reverse repeat, do it at the highest level. Find out what the best originators do to get their clients offers accepted and do that. Whatever that means, that's what you should do. And if it is, you know, if it's mine, call me. Just let's talk and have a conversation about what's involved.

23:28 Okay. I have a couple of tips and tricks as far as John Ledy would say. What's your tips and tricks for doing that? I'll share with the group what I do, forward or reverse.

23:38 Yeah. What is it you do? Well, I'm asking you first. Give me oh, so you're asking me. Well, look, the at number one, be available. Because if you're not available before accept your offer, I'm not going to find you when we're in escrow and there's a problem. So, at a minimum, like at least now, nor 90% of the time, I call any offer we're considering accepting, I'll reach out to the originator to interview the best part of what my seller expects is what my attorneys expect as a service. I was an originator. I know the right questions to ask. You know, and I'll play a You know, I don't have that Tennessee drawl like you do. So, I try to play stupid and sound like I don't know what I'm talking about. Ask a few questions and see if they're really on their game or not. And I can tell the I can tell the difference. Oops, I think I lost you there. Ooh, I think Wow, that happened fast. I think Loren might have accidentally hung up on himself. Wow. Okay. So, we'll just continue here. I'm sure he's going to jump back in. What I was going to say is at a minimum, call the listing agent. Tell them the stats of the loan. In this case, if it was a reverse, has your client done the education already or not? Let them know that. Right? It's one thing to say they're pre-approved and it's another thing to give them documentation, your company's internal documents to show that somebody is There you go. The Give them the documentation to show that the borrower is pre-approved.

24:57 As much as you're allowed to disclose, the more information the better so that the listing agent can present that to the seller, to the multiple sellers, to the attorneys. So, I would say at a minimum be available. Would be my number one you know it to me that's you should call on every pre-approval letter when the agent says they're making the offer, that should be a standard practice. I would say as a minimum. And then second, if the listing agent calls you, call them back in a timely manner, you know, as far as that goes. Is there anything else you think I'm Is there some magic trick that I'm missing in that process?

25:29 No, I think you spot on, man. You know, if you're not available like that's the age-old thing about mortgage guys or gals is that we miss closing dates and we don't call you back. We're not available. So, we can fix the second one easily cuz there's no excuse for that. You got a team or something. So, yes, be available, inspect what you expect, all that. But I like you. I like to be very proactive when I'm working with a real estate partner because of like you know you've got a lot of This is going to sound awful cuz I'm a Tennessee guy, but a lot of hay in the barn, man. Like there's a lot of good work that's already been done over years. So, they know they have the confidence to go back to their counterpart or their client go This if this guy is saying it's a deal, it's a deal.

26:21 Yes. And so that has its place. But among that above that, when I get a an opportunity, I will absolutely I will call. Now, I do let the real estate agent kind of drive the bus a little bit especially if it's their referral to me. If it's my referral to them, then I'm calling the shots. More so than maybe them cuz it's just good business cuz I know my client. They know their client and I understand my lane. But, what I will do, Bill, is with their blessing, I will reach out cuz they've already said how good I was. They already know that. They've already told the other agent, "Hey, I'm dealing with the best in our in our area in these things." Well, I will make a call. I will send a text. And I will even do a bomb-bomb video really quick. "Hey, just congratulations. Let me tell you, Bob and Joanne are fantastic candidates. Perfect file." Or, quite frankly, Bill, if it's a file that's got a little bit of hate little bit of rough edges, with the permission of the client, some agents don't like this, but I prefer to be up front and just say, "Look, we've got this, but this is the one issue we're working through, but within 10 days we'll have that solidified. And if this is the only thing that I see going on with this deal." But, the point is you reach out, be available, and you know, I think that is very powerful, very proactive, good business. And it's bold, right?

28:00 It's an opportunity cuz as you mentioned, hey, many times we'll send over, you know, FHA, you know, 60 70% down or H4P, you know, I don't put reverse purchase cuz I don't want to freak them out, okay?

28:17 But, what I will do is I will use the opportunity to go, "Hey, are you aware of this program? Well, we're going to buy your home for a million dollars with 600,000 down cash. And the other 400 is through the H4P program. Love to tell you more about it. Let's, you know, what have you." But, I look at it as an opportunity, just like you and I might look at the opportunity to, "Hey, who else is involved with this decision? Well, there's three children involved with this decision. Great. I want to talk to all three of them and their spouses.

28:55 And if we can get their parents' parents on top of it. You know, I want everybody in the room as much as possible. Why? Because you and I know it's the greatest untold story and the more facts the more we can't do anything about the fingers and ears and eyes closed.

29:14 Right? But the more facts we can put out, it's undeniable the power of this program. Okay, so here's the one weak spot

29:23 That is my pet peeve. Which is that you know, it's a tough enough sale. We've talked about how tough it is to get people to look at it and tough enough to take a loan when people are told you want to own a property free and clear and it's tough enough to get a purchase accepted and all that. We as an industry have shot ourselves in the foot and I did origin- I was originator 20 years ago and I did a couple reverses of the 1.0 version with financial freedom in those days. And it was a great product, it just was abused. It was abused to the detriment of many people, rightfully so. The program was completely changed. The problem now with the program that I see is the poor service post death of the borrowers and it shouldn't be. And it's so for those who aren't don't really know the process, you know, every year on FHA reverse mortgage a HECM they get a letter they're required to fill out the borrower's due saying I still live here, I'm still alive, I still basically I still qualify for the loan. And I've always said, you know, if you're an originator, why would you not call your client every year around the same time to say either you're going to get this letter or you should have got this letter or hey, you should have got it a month ago, did you get it? Either one of those are fine every single year to make sure your customer is alive, that they still need another loan because they might need a one.

30:44 And if they would say, "Hey, you know, I'm really having problems and my son's stepping in, my daughter's stepping in." What a great time to get involved in the handoff or the future handoff of when they're not around? And so, if I was, you know, the head of Next Reverse, if I was the production manager for the company, I wouldn't only hand out commission checks every month if you could document how many of your past clients you called, and if you didn't, you wouldn't get paid. Or I don't know if you can do that, but something like that. Because that process is not just good service for the business, it's good business for the originator to have the depths of relationships, and yet very few do that. And what happens is, unfortunately, mom and dad pass, sons don't know even how to reverse mortgage, or they're living there for free, they think, and next thing you know, there's a foreclosure, and the property's not in a trust. It's a you know, they need to open probate in order to even to answer the questions what to do, and it becomes a nightmare. Now look, I get a lot of listings off of that. That's kind of why I started this podcast also, is because I wanted to meet the servicers to say, "Let me help you before this becomes a nightmare. I can get probate done lickety-split. I can help walk people through the process. I can advance the money to get the process started." But that said, as an industry, we've got to do a better job of staying in touch with clients so that handoff is done effectively, properly. That should be the hey look, sure glad we had this loan rather than a standard mortgage.

32:07 Why are we not doing that or what do we need to do to get your colleagues in this industry on board with deeping the relationship? I know you do, but what do we do to get the rest of them motivated and understand the importance of these deeper relationships?

32:19 Oh, man. Probably one of that's probably one of the toughest questions you've asked, man, because you know, on one hand, I will be very And listen, I respect and appreciate everybody in our industry, top to bottom. We couldn't do it without all of us. Don't know how to service a loan, so we need that. But that being said, I do feel like as an industry the servicing aspect of it is lacking. Partly, you know, I have no qualm with anyone that wants to make a living and whether they're here or overseas or whatever, but you know, especially in the south, you know, I know a lot of our seniors they have a difficult time understanding virtual assistants in far away places. And God bless them, but they're just trying to follow a script and if it doesn't fit in that script, you know, that's a challenge. Obviously a lot of these rules have been made in place because there has been some abuse there. And to your point at the death the death call at the end it's very challenging because you know, it's you know, you don't want to sound harsh.

33:39 You know, hey, I need I need to know are you buying this house? Are you refinancing? Are you selling it? Are you walking away? We need to know. Why? Because FHA has these very strict rules that if we don't follow loan might not get you know, we may not get reimbursed if we take a loss or whatever's going on. And so I think that again, it's fighting the good fight. Bill, I cannot tell you how many times that I've gotten a call from a local person either maybe they're not local, maybe they just look me up. But with my credentials and things like that, hey, I'm getting the runaround. I don't know what to do. My mom and dad dealt with an 800 number out in whatever or they did a loan with a very high-end caliber person and then 3 months later some bottom feeder came through and you know, promised them the moon and the stars which really wasn't a benefit at all. And they can't find them now. What do I do? And so we have to fight the good fight. We have to put our money where our mouth is and take on those orphans and try to help them, but I think your point is how do we get them to do it up front? We talk about that here. I think that any good business looks at that as a good opportunity.

35:08 Are they doing that in the bottom feeders in the churn and burn shops? I don't know, probably not. No. No. And so it you know, thank God for Dan Houlgate which of the world and his understanding reverse and reverse and understanding servicing and whatever else going on, but to your point, I just it's such a challenge because we want it to grow, we want new blood, but we want them to do it our way. We want to do it the right way.

35:37 Right way. But and yet we've got a lot of people that are complacent. Our industry is older and they're just not out going and getting it. And let's be real about it. I don't think the average reverse professional is nearly as ingrained to the real estate community as the forward originator.

35:59 Correct. That goes back to my passion bill because I believe that the tried and true originator that's been in the game 10, 20, 30 years they already have the respected name in their community. They already have a handful of real estate agents that know that the job's going to be handled correctly. And that is a perfect segue. With the title companies and the forward originator, I believe that's the way we're going to grow this thing and make it happen.

36:33 Well, I know you're working hard to make it happen. I know you have your masterminds and I met you through the NRMLA program, the National Reverse Mortgage Lenders Association, excuse me. You really raise the high standards. I'm so honored to have you here today. I kept you on too long, you know, you're hourly rate. I can't keep you on too long.

36:49 Just kidding. He's doing this for free, but Man, I would I would be on here all night long. I think they would kick me out, but it's just been an honor, Bill. Like I said, the work that you do, you do so much for our industry both in the real estate industry as well as, you know, what we have in the reverse and the mortgage arena, man. Just really appreciate it. And like I said, I'd like to reach back to you know, offline as we continue to, you know, Axon is a very quickly growing partner within our family, if you will. And specializes on keeping the majority of the commissions with the real estate agent compare you know, combining them with that tried and true you know, mortgage model to where they can make sure the deals are going to get done. And Axon has different events, you know, all over and we will be going to these different events and communities all around the country. And so I know there's going to be a lot of webinars and things. Would love to lean back on you because you bring so much to the table, man.

37:55 Well, thanks. Thanks so much. Anybody would be well served your questions whether you're looking for the reverse mortgage yourself or you're a real estate agent in the area, particularly Tennessee, want to look for a great partner, or a financial planner, or if you're an originator looking to consider getting more committed to the reverse mortgage process, Loren is a tremendous resource in that area. His phone number is on the board, [phone number], [email address]. And then we'll have his website up. He's at Nexus Mortgage, but he really is a pillar of strength there and one of the leaders. Actually, I just can't thank you enough, Loren. Thank you so much for being on today. Really appreciate your time and your insights.

38:32 No, thank you, Bill. Man, thank you. You have a blessed day. I appreciate you, buddy. Thanks so much. And for actually, this was a Reverse Mortgage Podcast where we get Reverse Mortgage originators, not always as prolific as Loren is, not just as an originator, but as a leader in the industry of really raising standards. Hope you found it helpful. Like this, share this. Give me a comment. Reach out if I can help @billgrossprobate in social media. As always, make today your best day ever. Thanks so much.