Educating the Market on Reverse Mortgages, with James Raymond of Mutual of Omaha Mortgage

0:00 Or do you want me to brighten them a little bit? We're good. Hey, we're live actually and this is the welcome to the Reverse Mortgage Podcast. We get together every week and interview people, leaders in the field to talk about how to better serve our customers using the tool of reverse mortgages. Most commonly we have originators, often we'll have vendors, and we've had executives of different companies. We're excited to have today come at a different perspective on the industry. James Raymond is not just a long-time reverse mortgage professional with a lot of experience and perspective to share with us. But he's really with the largest companies in America, Mutual of Omaha, who does reverse mortgages. And so he'll talk about where their place is, but he's a wholesale account executive. He's the person who, if you are a reverse mortgage originator with a company, you might consider brokering loans through them or through the correspondent channel, finding loans. So he's really one who would help originators access the Mutual of Omaha product. James, thanks so much for joining us today.

1:01 Oh, pleasure to be here, Bill. Thanks for inviting me. Now, I've been in the reverse mortgage business for a while and then I started back in when they first came out, I want to say like '97, '98. I did a couple. I thought they're great. I also realized that they required some specialization, so I kind of stopped doing them for that reason. And then as a real estate agent, I realized the importance of them as a tool and that's why I launched the podcast. You've been in it the whole time. Give us a little background and your perspective. How long have you been in the industry and where did you start and where are you now today?

1:30 Well, Bill, I've been in the industry for just about 30 years. I've been selling reverse mortgages just about the same amount of time and I often joke how I stumbled into it, but I did my first reverse mortgage, I did not know how to spell FHA. That's an absolute true story. My best man's mother called me up and she said she wanted a reverse. I suppose I referred it to somebody who was supposed to be a specialist and she called me the next day. She was very matter-of-fact and she said, "That person's an idiot. You need to learn this." I took that loan literally from those back and the only one was available was Financial Freedom. And

2:10 That. I did those. I did two of those actually. And at that time, Financial Freedom charged a $1,500 broker application fee just to apply.

2:19 Yeah. So, and I took that loan and we were a full Eagle at a smaller shop but did heavy volume. And full Eagle means that they were approved to sell loans through FHA as a correspondent. That's what we call having an eagle that you have the right to sell loans to FHA rather than just broker them through another lender. I'm sorry, go ahead James.

2:37 Correct. Yeah, so when we were being a full Eagle, we had to do it that way. We couldn't broker it. We didn't we didn't have the ability. And I took that loan literally from application of investor through post closing and selling it off a warehouse line and it profoundly changed my perspective on this particular product. New Jersey not being a hotbed of reverses. It is now at that time it was still kind of new and scary and you know, there's reasons for that. We know all the history on these files before you know, the Reagan FHA days. But it profoundly changed me and I would do a half a dozen 10 a year. And then eventually the 2008 crash happened. Some personal life experiences. My wife was quite ill. She's fine now. She remembers everything wrong I've ever done Bill. So, you don't have

3:29 Okay. And I moved into She remembers She also remembers a lot of things she didn't do wrong but that's a whole 'nother story. Exactly. Yeah,

3:37 Exactly. So, My wife is in the room. So, I'd be careful here. So, she turned around and she I went into this full-time after the collapse. Went a full year without a paycheck. That was fun. In 2009, but I grind I just wrote it and stuck with it. And then it led to number one in retail sales, which led to management, which led to wholesale and national wholesale. And I found myself at Mutual of Omaha just about 7 years ago. And I've been here ever since.

4:08 Now, like me, been around from when it first started. And as I said when I did the first couple of financial freedom with the lender, we did them through they were very powerful tools. In this case, I had an older family who had a very grand home, had no loan on it, had no other liquid assets. We pulled a substantial amount out. They had a line for a bunch more. I made a lot of money on it. By the time it was really being misused, in particular the scam was you had paid through the loan and then lenders would turn around and sell the borrower an annuity to give them income rather than use the reverse mortgage to provide the income because they make a commission on the annuity sale of 8 or 10%. It was a terrible investment. And so I saw that happening and the stink of that, I said, "I don't really want to be involved with it at this time." And I felt like you either had to go in all the way or not at all. I wasn't ready to go in all the way on it and backed out. Today, the loan is totally different.

5:05 Yeah. Yet, the stink of that still exists. It's amazing to me people who been in the business older, I would do with attorneys, financial planners, wealth managers who say, "Oh, reverse mortgages, they're really just a scam." They don't understand that the product that they know that about doesn't exist anymore and the new product is totally different. Talk a bit about your experience on watching that shift on the I don't know, wild west days of reverse mortgages to the highly focused and regulated, I think safer product today.

5:34 Well, like I was saying to you earlier as we were doing our pre-talk, you know, love them or hate them, it doesn't make a difference, but Reagan changed your modern-day FHA. It was the whole Reagan administration that brought it into the forefront and the rules got changed. And people who are in their 70s, Bill, and in their 80s, they're right to remember the bank did take your house and equity participation writers. So, when they when they hear reverse mortgage, their first thing is, "Oh my god, the bank is taking my house." Well, that's all gone. I mean, it is gone, completely. Everything. It used to be a walking and breathing with a pen, and you got a loan. Now, it's a full doc underwrite. It's credit, it's income. There's a reason for it, and if it's not a sustainable scenario for the senior, they don't get lent the money. There is a credit profile review, a cash flow analysis. It's very simple to get approved. I mean, you can be 1 day out of a chapter You can be in a 13 one in a foreclosure or 1 day out of a seven chapter seven, and you could still close a loan if you have enough loan to value. That said, there is a document now that says, "Hey, nobody's telling you to take this money out and go get yourself an annuity, okay?" It clearly states that, and we, as AEs, will tell, you know, loan officers, "Hey, if your financial advisor, which a lot of them are, and these clients are taking this out to do investments, it's something that you want to be forewarned against." So, it there's actually a document that they all sign that says that they can't do that. But, all of these horror stories that people heard, well, that changed. And it changed I'm going to say right when you started get into the business, the late '90s, early '00s, and, you know, with the no more equity participation writers, you know, no transient rentals, cash flow analysis, all these different things. We've really seen the metamorphosis, and the protections that are in place, the independent counseling requirements, the non-recourse of the FHA, the even now the proprietary loans, which are

7:38 Enormous for those 55 and older. And we don't see the desperate taking these every all the time. It used to be that loan of last resort. Now, it's a tax planning advantage. Now, it's a hedge against a declining property values with a line of credit. There's so many good things from it that people need to say, "You know, this is what I heard, but now let me check out the new stuff." And that would be my recommendation to them.

8:07 You know, the thing that still is amazing to me is that reputation lasts. I mean, the those problems of that loan are for the most part There's a whole another issue we'll talk about, but that whole issue of what I call reverse mortgage 1.0 is, you know, gone now 30 years or so, 25 years, depending where you want to put the calendar, but let's say 25 years. The stink of it still exists today.

8:31 Yeah. And the only solution is ed- educating the marketplace. I mean, the consumers, the business professionals. And I'm just surprised at how little there is. Even, you know, your company is one of the largest in the space. You also have, I believe, one of the most protected brands. I want to say that of, you know, all companies in finances, you guys are In terms of all companies in the reverse mortgage space, very focused on the brand of Mutual of Omaha. You know, it's an asset that's very valuable and rightfully protected. And yet, I don't know that you're as a company have moved the needle on this product. I'm not I'm not calling you out. I'm saying as an industry, you know, as a real estate agent, I am shocked we don't do more reverse mortgages. I'm shocked we don't do 10 times reverse mortgages. What is it that holds back the ability to get the message out to customers properly? And if that's, you know, if I'm not right, you know, what is your company doing or what do you see happening on the positive side that is educating people on this very powerful tool that can be used for good.

9:38 Well, you know, fear, misinformation, old information, fake news, you know, I'm not going to call out some of the big financial, you know, guys on radio, but they have expressly said it's the worst thing ever and it's not. But as far as what we've done is we've chosen to educate a group of loan officers. I'm very fortunate, I have a blessed career. I have a constituency of over 13,000 loan originators that I help throughout the year. And I probably answer 300 email a day and it's amazing that they don't know this stuff. Financial advisors have been expressly warned for years, their broker-dealers said it's a, you know, persona non grata, you tend not sell it. That's all changed. The third leg of the retirement stool has is now been, "Hey, let's incorporate some housing wealth." And when you look at it at a street level, a guy who has sat across like you from the table with a mad family and a mom or a dad who at the end of the month has more months than money. And you sit there and you get the everything from, you know, there were three siblings, three, you know, three children there. One was saying, "You're stealing my inheritance." One is telling you to scam and the other one is, "Hey, maybe this can help." And you have to say, "Look, guys, this is all great, but let's turn around." Now again, I'm from the East Coast, I'm from New Jersey, so we're a little bit more direct on this side of the on this side of the Mississippi.

11:11 But it's very simple. You turn around and you explain to the children, you explain to them, "Hey guys, you can't eat roof shingles. Okay? You can't eat roof shingles. You can't If you're taking your medicine once every other day because you can't afford it every day, well, there's a there's a there's help for that. And nobody said take all the money out at one time, right, Bill? You know, take what you need. You'll be shocked what three to five hundred dollars a month does for somebody who's sitting at home that has nothing. You know, I see it all the time. So, the education, getting the word out there. What I'm seeing now though is and this is what is so exciting for the first time after a long career and what kind of keeps me going is that those that are 55, 60, 65, they're all in. They've been educated on intelligent leverage and smart decision-making. Those above, that's when we keep running into what we've run into. And then I think once the emotions get in there over the fact, everybody goes sideways. Oh my god, now Mutual of Omaha, here's a quick story and again, I'm a good talker, so just tell me when it's time to

12:20 But here's a Mutual of Omaha quick one for you. Everybody knows of our generation, 8:00 Sunday night was Disney, 8:30 Mutual of Omaha came on, right? So, I went to work for Mutual seven years ago. I called my mom. My mom's 83. She was 75 at the time, whatever. And I said to her, "Hey mom, guess what? I'm going to work for Mutual of Omaha, they recruited me." She goes, "Great company, James. I'm so happy for you. Oh, this is great." I go, "Mom, do you own any Mutual of Omaha products?" She goes, "Not one of them, but it's a great company." And I turned around and I realized what she remembered. Sunday night, me sitting on the couch with her. That brand is incredibly protected. We're number 299 on the Forbes list. We're privately owned and we have a better credit rating than all of them, okay? We're careful what we do. It's a big ship. We can move quickly, but we can't turn around fast, okay? But that being the case, we have taken the position that this is an integral part, the reverse mortgage and using housing wealth, we've taken that position that this is an integral part of retirement security. Now, I'm not a retirement type guy. You can see the energy I have. I'm going to whatever they'll let me do until I until I go out. But, some people want to sit around and watch the news, and you know, and this can help them. And once again, nobody said take out all the money.

13:43 Use that growing line of credit. Let it re- Let it Let it reinvest itself. Use it when you need it. Pay it down. There's so many different things. And I got stories that could go on forever.

13:56 Now, you mentioned that you have an army of 13,000. What I think you're referring to is these are originators at other companies

14:06 Yes. Who don't offer or don't offer the specific or as good product or service in the reverse mortgage arena that you do, who take the product either broker or through correspondent channel, bring those loans to sell your product through their relationships, right? So, that's the wholesale role. So, obviously, a lot of your job is I'm sure strictly just pricing, mechanics, and how you get you know, what forms you need to get started. Do you get involved in or is there a component to the to the relationship of educating them on how to educate their clients, meaning are you helping those originators talk to financial planners or talk to consumers and how to sell this product more effectively? I'm sure you do individually when they call you, but I'm talking more of a corporate is it more of a company initiative or division initiative that you can talk about?

14:50 Yeah, we have a tremendous training portal. I mean, you name it, we have a dedicated master sales trainer and education trainer. His name is Craig Barnes. He's magnificent. If you could ever have him on here one day, I would highly recommend he bring he makes the sale so easy. Now, he takes it from that, you know, deep perspective, and you understand everything you need to know. Me, I'm a little bit more boots on the street. Let's turn around here and figure out what your client needs and then give them direction. I spent 25 minutes on the phone this morning with a new loan originator, a newer to reverse loan originator, a small broker shop who said, "Hey, this is I've only in 21 years I've done three of these, and nobody knows this nobody know nobody seems to know what you know and what you've taught me in the last 20 minutes, and it's been very refreshing and thankful." And I run, you know, sales training, I run, you know, how to discuss this properly, how to bring it up, and I'm very cautious when I speak to the sales professionals. I say, "Look, if your only job is about making money for you're probably not going to do very well in reverse. You'll sell one, and maybe you'll make some money, but you're not going to get another one. But if your heart is genuinely in it to help the client first and do right, you'll not only be paid handsomely, but your client will send you a Christmas card.

16:16 And when you get that letter or that email or that card that says, and this one hits me all the time whenever I repeat the story, "James, thank you so much. Mom passed a few years ago.

16:29 Dad recently pa- Dad passed a few years ago, and Mom recently passed. They were able to stay at home, live with pride, dignity, and what was the other word she used? Pride, dignity, and privacy, all from a loan that we didn't understand that you broke down.

16:51 Right. They have since passed. There's plenty of equity left. We only used what we needed to, and we couldn't have been more thankful for everything you did for us. That changes your perspective on how to educate an LO."

17:05 Now, one of the major problems in the industry so that we talk about the reputation that rightfully comes from the first version of this product that's been changed. The other area that I think is causes problems for the reputation of product is when the loan has to be closed, which is when the bar borrowers have both passed. And I should have actually just pre-recorded, but I'm going to take the chance here and do it live. I'm going to make an assumption, because what I see is most reverse mortgage companies and lenders sell the servicing because they make a few dollars more by taking that servicing rights to collect the payment, and sell it to a barracuda who is hoping, I think, to either foreclose or force a bunch to foreclosure or fees and heartache on the family. And I'm assuming, cuz I've never seen a foreclosure notice from Mutual of Omaha that you guys service your own loans, and you must have some sort of a consultative process that you must have a different experience on foreclosures than the average of reverse. That's my guess. Tell me if I'm right or is there something going on that I should be aware of.

18:18 Who was who was the guy on Johnny Carson? What do you call himself? Carnac? And he had the answer. Carnac the Magnificent, correct. There you go. Hey, Carnac, great job. So, Mutual of Omaha is a direct, the real deal, direct line to Wall Street. We are a originator, seller, and servicer of all HECM FHA products and our own proprietary reverse mortgage product known as Secure Equity. We are the lender. We are the servicer. Now, the mathematical documents and statements that go out monthly, we sub service through the big guy. His name Their name is Celink, c e l I n k. Look them up. However, when that borrower has a question, because of the way we set it up and we pioneered this a few a couple years ago, that when that client calls up for service, we are alerted, the AE. And I call the And I call the LO and say, "Hey, your client's looking for some information. This would be a great time to number one, say hello, and number two, it'd be a great time to make sure nobody's trying to scam them. It's been 7 years since they closed their loan, and there's a lot of bad eggs out there."

19:35 That's right. And you'd be shocked. So, we have what's called broker protect. Whether you're a closed loan seller, and it doesn't make a difference. We have broker protect, and broker meaning you know, originator protect.

19:47 Right. And when those come in, we send those out. I get two a day. And a lot of times it was just a client calling in for a little information.

19:55 Right. But we spearheaded that. And when you service it yourself, we don't run into the barracudas. We've kicked them all out. We've gotten rid of them.

20:03 You know, I know that's happening. And I'm Thank you for clarifying that, and that's on the wholesale side. And I need to text me retail side to verify that there. Because that's your company. Your whole company is, you know, you want to have life insurance, and then and then when they pass, I guess somebody got the beneficial interest in life insurance as well. And you want them to invest with Mutual of Omaha. You want them to buy life insurance. You want them to And how you do that? Well, they have to have a good experience, or else they're not going to be repeat customers. It's kind of built in for you. And so, I've seen that. And I've seen the difference first hand because I look at the property probate. So much of my business now is a probate specialist in real estate. Our foreclosures and families are in panic because they think they're going to lose the equity. The truth is, they really even if foreclosed on, they could get most of it back. Long story, you don't want to go there. But it is properly a concern. And handled appropriately, there's no reason for this to happen. And it sounds to me like you guys And so, I would say to any originator working with James, make those phone calls. Find out what's going on. And if they have a property and it's not in probate, in California, they'll need to get it probated ASAP. Other states, maybe not. Get proper legal advice because somebody has to have authority to act on behalf of that estate. In California, it's nobody until the court appoints somebody unless it's in a trust. So, I you know, I had that thinking in my mind and I'm going to I appreciate you sharing that and any information you have on that information, I'm here doing some research while I'm doing a podcast. I'd love to get whatever you have in that program, broker protect.

21:40 I'd love to know more about that because I think that's one of the key things to breaking this bad reputation. The point when the property has to be the loan has to be paid off should be the highlight of the experience, not the nightmare scenario and the reason not to get a reverse mortgage. And this is why I launched this podcast a year and a half ago is I saw this reputation unnecessarily being created like this. So, let me Oh, go ahead. Go ahead.

22:06 I'm going to just digress for a second back into what you're talking. Let me Let me Let me dispel the myth about foreclosure. There's only one reason or only a handful of reasons why a person would be issued foreclosure. They have not paid their taxes and insurance and even then the servicer usually steps in and pays it, okay? And then creates more of a loan for themselves. They don't want to Nobody wants to kick anybody, huh? Even that. So, that's the first thing. And you're no longer living in the home. So, just say the borrower passes, the next of kin, the heirs, whoever listed are notified, you know, and they have a grieving period, and then they have a time to go to the servicer and say, "Hey, Mom and Dad have passed. What do I have to do?" And the servicer will say, "Hey, you have some time to get your affairs in order. You got 3 months. And then at the end of that 3 months, if you're showing that you're actually doing something and it's not happened, we'll give you another 3 months. And at the end of 6 months, if you're not if things haven't happened, it's a bad market, something's not right, you haven't gotten the offers, the home's off the market, we'll give you another 3 months. And then even then, they'll give you another 3 months.

23:24 Yeah. So you can technically get up to 12 months to get those affairs in order. Now, if you don't get those affairs in order in 12 months, it means you're usually living there and don't want to be kicked out. So let's look at it from a perspective that way. And I've known people I've known of families on very big rural areas that got these loans and mom somehow is 116 and still living.

23:51 And they've actually sent spotters out to say, "We'd love to meet mom." I'd like to meet mom. She's 116.

24:01 116 and you're going, you know, like you find out there's a cemetery on the 22 acres out in the back. And again, God bless. I mean, you know, I don't call it passing by the way, but I call it moving to heaven. But Bill, after this, what we on? 25 minutes? You don't want to go there. None of your friends are going to be there. So

24:19 I call it moving to heaven. So but as far as, you know, understanding that, it there's plenty of time. And you have plenty

24:29 I need to caution everybody listening to this because the truth is, I believe that's true for Mutual of Omaha clients. I believe it's true for lenders who service loans in their own name or put their name on the statement. But for too many loans done by cost-cutting private equity Wall Street financed companies who just look at a profit short-term, it's not the case. I had many customers call me and say, "I thought I was supposed to get 3 months or 6 months and they're just they you know, they ignored me. They won't give me I mailed my letter they say they don't have the letter and they filed a notice of default and so again, I would just say this is why I think if you're building a business, you have to think about who your partners are. And sometimes an extra, you know, 10 basis points might be worth or whatever the number is might be worth the service of having happy customers and repeat business down the road. So, let me let me just kind of as we get towards close of the company as I wanted to ask cuz you do work with so many originators. You work with bad ones that you try to maybe push away or turn down or whatever and then I'm sure you work with some great ones. What do the great ones do that enable them to build a great business in this niche? I'm talking about the ones who are focused in a reverse mortgage. What do the one What do the great ones do consistently that you see that the ones who struggle just don't seem to get their act together and address?

25:47 So, let's address the loan officer the individual first. If the individual is of reasonable intelligence can listen, read, follow direction, and take a little bit of training and invest a little sweat equity, you can underwrite and create these loans on a on a cocktail napkin bill. I mean I mean they're very simple loans. I mean they're very and what I love about the rules is that the rules are what the rules are whether it's here or some of the other lenders. There might be difference of opinion on, you know, certain minutia but for the most part they're all the same. We're very we're considered very accepting on everything. So, that's what's important. What I find the bad ones who are this is usually I see it every day. Hey, I'm on my way to my first reverse mortgage consultation. I've I'm going to be there in 10 minutes. I've never did one. Tell me how to sell it. Or what or what should I do? And I what should I do? And I say reschedule. And they're like, "What do you mean?" And I'm like, "You can't go to I go, why would you even go visit somebody? What if the home's worth 300,000 and they owe 350? There is no way." What are you going over there to talk about? So, and then usually even after you say that, well, I just got to go over there and meet them. You say, "Hey, next question for you, if I may." Or they say to you, "What am I going to make? How much am I going to make?" I know right away I have a rock, and I mean that respectfully to the rocks, okay?

27:09 The good ones say, "James." Always opens up the same way, nine out of 10. "James, I've never done one of these before. I have a nice reputation in the business, and I'd like to help this client out. I don't need to make the most. I don't want to make the least, but I want to do right by the client. And my goal, and what keeps me motivated every single day, I've had a very blessed career, Bill. Okay? You know, I'm very fortunate. But I've worked hard for it, and I'm a workaholic. I say, "I want to do this long so that those clients, when they see you in the market, they give you a hug and not hit you with a can of tomato."

27:46 Yes. I know that is my one and only goal. What keeps me going in it. You're going to be compensated very well, even if you do a skinny transaction. That's the truth. Everybody knows that. However, okay? And those clients say, "James, tell me what to do. I'll do it. What are the What are the bullet points or the or the CliffNotes for those of us who might be old enough to remember CliffNotes before AI?

28:10 What are they? And I'll do exactly what you say." And I've had, you know, and being a top pricing, you know, not only having top pricing, as far as our back-end service, I like to say our service is even better than our pricing, and our pricing is second to none. So, when you combine that and you talk that and have that conversation with a Bill Gross as loan originator, an intelligent guy, they'll research, understand, and listen to somebody of vast knowledge and front-line usage, they listen. They listen more. They talk less. They make sure the clients know that they care, that they're fair, that they can help them. And that's how they do it, nice and easy. You don't have to sit down across the table anymore. Most seniors have Zoom. And honestly, they'd prefer you not come over.

29:00 I noticed in your name on the video here, you have CRMS after your name. What does that stand for? It stands for Certified Reverse Mortgage Specialist. So, we are a sponsor of NAMB, the National Association of Mortgage Brokers. Okay, we're also and NAMB, we have a co- I guess a co-piloting with them and we take originators, we make them stand like 10 hours with us over 2 days, and we teach them every nook and cranny you could ever imagine. It allows them to be a NAMB member. And for you brokers, I'm going to plug NAMB for a second. If you're not a member, go become one. They're fabulous. If you are a banker, make sure you're in part of the Bankers Association. These are the guys who are out on the forefront doing all this stuff. But we run that. It's a virtual class. It's done by our master trainer. And after 29 years in the business, if that's it. After 29 years in the business, Bill, I never had initials after my name. There's another one which we'll leave nameless that I've never necessarily agreed with on a from a higher level. And I saw this and I said, "Well, this one makes sense." And I jumped all over it, and people were shocked. They're like, "James, you could teach the class." I go, "Yeah, but don't tell him that. He'll be out of a job." It's my co- His name is Craig. Great guy.

30:25 You know, I in real estate, we have more designations we do real estate agents, I think. And the in probate, there's a five or six different companies, and I've to each one I've taken, I've learned something. But none of that detailed as deep as you describe. And I will say that there's another designation that actually I do respect quite a bit. I have to say, I've met a large number of their practitioners and have had very good experiences with them and they've helped me quite a bit in I'm building this podcast. So, shout out to them as well. But, James, I really appreciate the expertise and experience and I think the perspective of this business you've given us. I think anybody who's an originator looking to do a loan or a reverse mortgage, needs some help, you'd be a great asset to them. To reach out to James, they will they have a website, obviously Mutual Mortgage is a very big company and has all kinds of assets. But, I think as I as I talked to James in the pre recording, he said just you'll contact him directly. And so, I down below on the screen, we have his contact information, [phone number] is the phone number or [email address]. If you can't get this cuz you're driving or something, feel free to reach out to me. I'd be honored to make the connection. James, thanks so much for sharing with us today, both about you and your company and more importantly about the industry and how we can raise our standards together.

31:40 Well, great for having me. I'm a little I'm honored, Bill. I when I saw the invite, I said, "I better put on a shirt with a collar today."

31:50 And I and I and make sure I shave. And that's what I did. So, working from home, we develop some interesting habits some days, you know, we just turn up the filter if we're not shaving.

32:00 Exactly. But, thank you very much. Like I said, I'm honored to be here. I hope I shed a little light on it and That's great. You know, I'm very thankful for you and for the invite.

32:10 It's great. Thank you so much. Thanks. I really appreciate it. And for the rest of you, this is the Reverse Mortgage Podcast. We get together every week. Usually with an originator or in this case, a vendor, wholesaler or management to give us perspective on how to be better at serving our customers. I'm a real estate broker and I work all the time with people at the tail end, but also, I try to get customers who need reverse mortgages to the right professional who's a specialist rather than just calling some 800 service number. So, hope you find it interesting. If you like this, please like it. If you don't, give me a comment. Let me know what the problems are. You can reach out to me at Bill Gross Probate in social media. As always, make today your best day ever. Thanks so much.