Jumbo Reverse Mortgages, with Christina Harmes Hika

0:02 Hey, welcome to the Reverse Mortgage Podcast. I'm your host, Bill Gross, at Bill Gross Probate on social media. We do this every week and where we interview most commonly reverse mortgage originators, managers, some vendors, other people in the in the business, but I'm excited to have today right in the fat square, not fat, I shouldn't say that, right in the bullseye of the industry. One of the leaders, several people told me I had to talk to her. I've met her, we've talked a few times. But more importantly, talk about specifically jumbo reverse mortgages. Hey, there's jumbo reverse mortgages. Christina Harmsa, a certified reverse mortgage specialist. Thank you so much for joining us today. Hey, Bill. Thanks for having me on today. I'm happy to talk about jumbos and all things reverse. So, let's talk about first off where jumbos fit in to the repertoire. Does every you know, I know there's certain loans that are certain staple parts of verse mortgage, you know, lines of credit, standard loans, monthly payments. Are jumbo loans available through all companies, all lenders, all do all regions have access to or is this a proprietary product that you've been able to both get the expertise on and find access to? Great question. And just for your viewers, the landscape of mortgages in general, but also reverse mortgages. You can go to one company that has a certain set of products, and some do have their own one jumbo or like three or four jumbos, but it's all the same company. Or you can work with a broker, which is what I am, and I am a broker, so I have access to all the different lenders out there and multiple jumbo or proprietary offerings. And they're all a little bit different. So, if you are looking for jumbo, I believe if you're looking for a reverse mortgage anyways, you should be working with a broker because they're able to know the entire landscape. When you hear no from somebody who just works at one company that only has one loan offering, you think, "No, I can't do a reverse mortgage." But maybe you can. When you're working with a broker and especially somebody with a lot of knowledge, they should have in their head all the different things that are possible. So, one of the cool things in my career is I am often able to do loans that others aren't just because I do have access to other lenders. There's

2:05 Multiple lenders with multiple jumbos and proprietaries out there. You know, I'm a bit older than you and I know that when I started in business out of college, one of the great books of all time, In Search of Excellence, monitored the best American companies and a consistent pattern they found was their limited product offering. Like McDonald's was a case study. They said, "Well, back then they only had hamburgers, cheeseburgers, fries, Cokes, shakes, and I think fish or something else." And that made them great. But over time, McDonald's had to diversify the menu to offer coffee, breakfast, salads, fruit, whatever else. And other businesses, think of car companies. Used to be you went to one car dealer. It was just a Ford company or Chevrolet. Now you go to car marts where there's like 10 or 12 cars together. And that's think with a mortgage broker has an offering that is wider than direct lender. I know I was a mortgage banker and a mortgage broker both and I was more of a broker in that and offered more. So there's pluses and minuses. Obviously though at the same time you have to work on developing the relationships with the lenders as a broker to keep those doors open and those relationships solid. So talk a little bit about how your experience your knowledge allows you to maybe have those relationships where maybe a less experienced broker might not be able to. That's a really good point. So when you do a lot of loans and you have your one representative at your company, they start to take notice. They start to take you seriously and then you're able to when you call they pick up the first time you're able to get the best rep within that lender. It just it does provide a lot of benefit to you that you can then pass on to your borrower. Yeah. And I've been lucky enough to specialize just in reverse for a very long time. So that's all I do all day. I have a lot of phone calls to those reps. You know, the top 5% or 10% in our industry has access to services.

3:54 I'm in real estate. I talked to more attorneys, more services, more vendors than a Realtor® does one or two probates a year. They're not going to have those opportunities just like you have more loan options available. So, let's talk about jumbo. First off, what is the standard loan limit where a jumbo loan starts to take over and then what kind of products are available beyond those points? So, really interesting landscape. We say jumbo and that's kind of where it originated. But as of today, it's not just jumbo, it's proprietary, which means non FHA. So for the average consumer, I say either an FHA, HECM, home equity conversion mortgage, which is the most common we all talk about, or a non FHA. And within the non FHA, we say jumbo because we do go up to home values of 10 million. If the home value is higher than that, they'll still do the loan. They will just cap the value they're using at 10 million. But there's actually other proprietaries. I have one on my desk right now. It's a condo, non FHA approved. The value is 250,000 and there's a lender out there who will do it. And so having this landscape in your head of the differences in all the different proprietary or jumbos really helps you help somebody because that lady was turned down a couple of times by somebody else saying, "Oh, your condo association is not FHA approved. You can't do this loan." Some of the proprietaries have a value limit of 4 or 500,000 where they won't do anything less than that. So if you really do know this stuff, you'll know which lender has this weird particular thing. Then you know what guidelines if you get into weird guideline things that make it not possible for somebody to do a loan on one type of proprietary, switch to the other type of proprietary.

5:33 Could I give kind of a rundown of what they look like? Yeah, I was I was going to try to make up my own list. So yeah, why don't you do it rather than since you know the answer rather than me guessing? Sure, why not? Yeah. So generally it's going to be I think in my head of and this is current today, right? Every year these numbers updated sometimes the programs are updated randomly throughout the year. So in my head a home value of about 2 million is kind of the marker where I say they're probably going to be more interested in a proprietary. But don't think that you shouldn't look at the FHA HECMs just because your home values over a certain limit because there are benefits to the FHA HECM that the proprietaries and the jumbos don't have. One of which being the line of credit that is available throughout your entire retirement. There is not a proprietary with that on the table. So anecdotally this is not a common thing but I often talk about this one client I had. He wanted he heard about the FJ HECMs, heard about the line of credit that grows, really like that concept. Well, when he came across my desk, his home value was 4 million. And I had this in my head. Well, the home was free and clear. And so, could we do an FHA HECM or a jumbo? So, I presented both to him. Obviously, with the FHA heekum, you could have a much higher loan amount. Excuse me. With the FHA HECMs, the loan amount was lower, but that line of credit was open the entire time he had it. And so he ended up doing the FHA HECMs at a $4 million value because it just made sense for his situation. So one caution I always say to people and loan officers is to not assume that it's just based on the home value. But what you'll hear out there in the market is somebody who has a home value of five million, they'll go to a company that only has FHA HECMs and be told, "Oh, you know, you can get this little loan amount." Doesn't work for them. FHA HECM doesn't account for values over about 1.2 in right now. That changes every year. So values over 1.2 might be looking at a jumbo, but really HECM

7:36 Still makes sense for a lot of people up to about 2 million. At 1.2 million. What kind of loan amount would it an FHA be the maximum? And then are the are the proprietary loans higher loan to value or they go higher loan amounts but maybe a lower loan to value. You got it. They're higher loan amounts overall. So if we have a $10 million home, we can get a few million out to the client where the FHA HECM couldn't do that. But if we actually look at the same home value if say a million dollar home, right? And we're comparing an FHA heekum to a non FHA heekum, excuse me, a non FHA, it's not a HECM at that point. If we're comparing those two, the percentage that they're willing to lend on the proprietary, the non-FHA is lower than what can be done on the HECM, but there's a kind of break even. In my head, that's about 2 million right now. Okay. So, it just sounds to me like you have a larger toolbox, more tools in it. And the key is you've got to as a professional, you know, assess the client properly and make sure you're picking the right tool and maybe adjust the tool on the fly to get the right fit for the customer. So, I know on the FHA program, one of the features is it's a non-reourse on purchase. I think it refunds nets as well. I believe is that true on proprietary and some proprietary on none of them or generally is that not a feature? That is a feature. They are self-insuring. There's no mortgage insurance and the lenders are self-insuring but the documents it is still a reverse mortgage which is a non-reourse loan. So the closing documents still say all the same very similar language. I don't want to say all the same very similar language. It is a non-reourse loan but the interest rate is a little bit higher. And so that's why generally my rule of thumb is if you can get a HECM and it makes sense for your goals, wants, needs, sensitivities, do a HECM because the interest rates are that much lower.

9:20 Yeah. You know, unless you have some other compelling reason why you need something different like condos. So, let's talk about condos a little bit because a lot there's a market I think untapped of seniors moving. And the advantage of a condo when you're older is there's less to take care of, right? You have common areas for entertaining, common areas for a pool or golf or whatever else. Maybe a smaller living unit, but it's a association affiliated with it. So, famously FHA has limitations as to what they'll approve. Talk about proprietary. Are they, you know, are they, you know, willing to, are there certain standards? I guess they vary by lender. What's the rules on condos being approved for proprietary loans? So, they do still vary by lender. The FHA has a requirement that there's either full FHA approval on the whole complex or single unit approval. And sometimes the way the questions are answered or the way the financials look maybe the occupancy percentage, it just doesn't line up. So that certain complexes or certain units simply cannot get FHA approval. Right now, we have a different problem in the industry where HOAs actively don't want FHA approval and that's a different problem and I think that's just awful. I think HOAs should work to help their homeowners, but there are two ways. There's the misconception that reverse mortgages are somehow bad and that's where they stop and they go, "Well, we don't want reverse mortgages in here." Why? Why? Well, they don't really understand and they don't.

10:49 No. Well, they don't understand. That's not They really don't they really don't understand. I mean, that's just stupid because you have to be the opposite. You have to be owner occupied and review that every year versus a conventional loan, you can say it's owner occupied and move out and nobody's ever know the difference and be running the property and they don't want that. So, the reverse mortgage at least has at least the FHA version has a built-in protection annually to make sure that their own occupied, which is something the HOA is almost always interested in. Yeah. Yeah. Plus, often they'll say, "Oh, when the person passes, well, with a regular mortgage, you got to keep those payments up every month when those passes. With a reverse mortgage, you've got six months with no payments and then possible two, three month extensions." So I do think it's really shortsighted that if excuse me HOAs first are allowed to just not get approval and second have the ability to block approval or work counter to the process. Yeah. You know and again I think this is an issue of education because frankly the only difference in the payoff on the reverse and a regular is the drama is bigger on the reverse because there's kids they assume there's no payment until it's too late. And all the more reason why maybe the HOA should have a educational seminar in the recck room and I'd be glad to do it locally because it's just it just makes no sense. I mean, it makes no sense. It's a better loan for the HOA by definition.

12:14 It's a better deal for the HOA. I don't know why they would think otherwise. Okay, so you know, look, I'm a real estate broker and I was I think we had this discussion previously, but just for the audience, I was shopping for a home. I fantasized about moving to Florida. I'm married, so unless I get divorced, which I can't I can't both get divorced and move to Florida. I can move to Florida, if my wife changes her mind, that's not going to happen. Or I can I can get divorced and be broke, but that's not going to happen. But that said, I look I was looking and shopping and looking at houses when I could afford and I even know that I could consider getting reverse mortgage. I'm 66 years old. Why would I not? I'm trying to take my c the cash we have and say, "Well, I don't want to touch this. Don't touch that. Well, I have this much extra. Could buy a property there for about500 or $600,000 and one day I was talking to you or somebody else I said hold it I could probably get reverse for probably 300,000 instead of $600,000 I'm looking at a $900,000 property what do we do to get more people be aware of the again it's not for all cases all the time but the obvious opportunities the reverse mortgage is correct what do we do to get people more aware of that well there's a few factors one of the factors that I think is honestly one of the bigger problems and this is across the whole population is people are not financially literate and they're not financially literate to a point where they trust themselves in making these financial decisions. Then you bring it to an unknown or reverse type product where it works differently.

13:44 People trust themselves getting mortgages because mortgages kind of all work the same way. They don't have to learn a lot through the process. Though first- time buyers do learn quite a bit, but then for their whole life, a mortgage kind of works the same way once they get it. Well, with a reverse mortgage, it works very differently. This is also a time in their life where their brain is maybe not as functional as it once was. And they feel like, oh, it's unknown. I'm afraid of the unknown. So, we need to get people over the fear of it, which means bring in the adult children. One of my processes is who else is important in your life for this decision-m process or bring them in because you have to have confidence in anything. You have to be competent in it. And that's one of the biggest things I see is, you know, we'll have a couple the husband was handling all the finances. He passes. Now the wife has to handle her own finances and she's not she's not skilled at it yet. She doesn't feel comfortable yet. She doesn't feel comfortable making these decisions. And sometimes that alone is the stopping point. The numbers will make all the sense in the world. It will fit her goals, her situation. Her family will be on board. But you can just tell she's just so scared of making big financial decisions. Well, like you said, and you use the word yet. It's not that she's not capable, it's that she hasn't been doing it. And like anything else, if you don't do something, you're not you don't feel comfortable and you're not good at and you have to do it for a while. I think the other opportunity is with reverse mortgage sales is bringing in you talk about the family. I think that's part of the process all the partners in the process. Meaning I think too often archers look at well I'm just you know want to do loans if they not ready to apply I'm not ready to meet with them versus well what an opportunity if they have an attorney or they have an accountant advising them well what a great opportunity to meet that person and they may have clients they can refer to you and I think that we so often look at these extra steps as impediments to one transaction versus an investment in our business that can lead to multiple transactions and that's why I do podcasts frankly I talk

15:47 To attorneys I talk to originators who have families that need to sell property all over the country. I'm in Los Angeles because you know it I believe in getting the word and as a result by talking to people I help people but it works out as business as well. So we just need to kind of raise the standards on people as well. So let's talk a little bit about where does proprietary fit in meaning I don't think I know a little bit about you. I don't believe you go in with that as a lead about the product. It's more about you as a professional or as an educator or as a adviser and then you're going to look in the toolbox and oh wow here's a proprietary option here's a FHA let's look and see which one makes more sense for you. Is that kind of your approach more as an adviser and the proprietary products are just part of those tools. Absolutely. And I live in San Diego. Our home values are very quickly easily over the millions and so it's just come across my desk a lot. Hey, this person is thinking they might want a reverse mortgage. And then when I look into it, well, their home value is 34 million. And then it's on me to explain what is available to them. I think it's really important that we educate and explain all the differences. And then from there, then it's their choice, right? And often the choice skews towards the proprietaries because they can get more of their equity out of their home and that's generally what they're looking to do. I think the other thing about reverse mortgages in general is that it's a longer selling cycle in that too often by the time they're talking to a lender they're already in escrow to buy a property or for some reason they need to refinance.

17:23 They have a loan coming due or they need money for something. Reverse mortgage, I think, at its best, is part of a whole plan and therefore requires some evaluation and education and consultation and probably several appointments or several conversations before they're ready. Do you notice that you see customers on reverse mortgages maybe more times or talk to them more times before they actually originate a loan versus forward mortgages? Yes and no. You know, I used to work with first-time buyers. There's a lot of conversations with first time buyers before similar. Yeah. Yeah. So, with the reverse mortgage, at least my book of business, what I've noticed is my clients kind of fall into two buckets and they're very different buckets. So, the first bucket is the more needs-based client. And often that is a life event. Something happened and it is affecting the finances and we need this loan and we need this loan yesterday. So, those clients often there's not all that many conversations. It's fully make sure they understand, bring everybody in, and then they're trying to close as fast as possible. That I think is not a fun process. So my mission in the industry is to get people to look at this before and incorporate it as part of their retirement plan so they can be in this other bucket of clients I have, which is the planners, the people who say, "Hey, I want my retirement to be great. I want to make sure that I'm utilizing everything that's a available to me. And hey, my home is the largest asset and the best investment that I've made for a lot of people. Not always true, but for a lot of people. And how am I not going to touch that in retirement? That just doesn't make sense to me. Doesn't make sense to me either.

19:03 Let's look at the reverse mortgage. And in that case, those conversations can take longer because they're kicking the tires. They're trying to figure out in the plan. They want the financial advisor to approve everything. Sometimes it's conversations with CPAs, other friends and family, financial advisors bringing into the conversation with me to review all the numbers and make sure they're comfortable with it. And surprisingly, I'm on a mission to change this, but surprisingly the advice is consult with your financial planner or financial adviser. Well, they don't really understand the product. Correct? They don't sell this product. Most loan officers don't even understand this loan and how it works. So then the financial adviser often has to be brought into the conversation. So it does lengthen the process. But what I often find is the tire kicker types, they know they're going to get a reverse mortgage. They the numbers make sense. They like the concept. Sometimes they also need a life event to kind of get that kick of, okay, let me finally do this. And unfortunately, sometimes that life event has already caused late payments on things, maybe damage to the credit report, and it makes it so that the loan is either a much rougher process or maybe not possible for them. What percentage of your business generation is through professionals, accountants, attorneys, state planners, and the like? And what if anything can you do to support their business so they want to work with you?

20:31 Up until about three years ago, I would almost say 100%. Because I always found that working with professionals, they're generally the one that finds the need, right? Somebody's coming to them saying, "Mom and dad need help in this way or maybe we need help ourselves." And then they go, "Okay, well, how can I help?" Well, I know Christina my YouTube channel has actually started taking off and I'm getting more consumers to find my YouTube channel. They're getting educated. And I'd like to invite anybody watching this, Christina Harms, just search it on YouTube, you'll find my YouTube channel. Have a lot of educational videos. So, it's been interesting to have that change because I moved from consumer direct early on. I used to do seminars a long time ago. I know I'm young, but I've been in the mortgage industry since I was 16. Three years. Yeah. Thanks, Bill. Thanks, Bill. I'm almost 40. But so yeah, it's been interesting because early on I recognized the people that would come to the seminar, they were often too far down the line of financial crisis for me to be able to help them. You know, the foreclosure is happening tomorrow and they come to the center. Here comes here comes the Oops. I'm trying to get your YouTube channel up as I'm talking to you. I'm sorry about that. Oh, thanks. That's okay. I appreciate it. My production team isn't very good. It's me, so sorry about that. Same. Buyer beware.

21:55 It's all about Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry. Where were you? But it has been really interesting getting more consumer direct, but these are educated consumers now and I haven't experienced that before in my career. That's been really a nice change. But, I'd say still, you know, 80% of my clients are from another referral partner. We have a long ways to go with this industry to get people educated. I, as a real estate agent, I'd say that we are doing about one in 10 of what we should be doing on the purchase side. And I think every senior who has a property free and clear should have a line of credit at a minimum just for protecting their equity and in case of emergencies. And so I think there's at least 10 times as many loans that should be done. And we need to work with professionals to get on board with that. I brought up your YouTube channel. I kind of interrupted us. There's a good-looking guy in the bottom left. Who's that? Who's that good-looking guy? That was a great interview about probate and reverse mortgages. You think I would know your channel? I was on it. But look at that. Yeah, we got 97 views in a day. So, that thing is really cooking. You really have you got some real activity there. You doing great job there, lady. And so, this to me looks more like you're educating for consumers here. At least the videos are more things that would be of interest to consumers as opposed to prof competitors. I'm trying to do more content for originators, but this looks like some great information if somebody's considering getting a reverse mortgage and not quite sure what to do.

23:15 It's actually dual purpose. So, I started the channel because separately I am a reverse mortgage coach and I started with those videos. What ended up happening was consumers were not finding anything else on there's not that much out there. So, they were finding my channel. So, now my content is dual purpose and I say that in the end. If you're a loan officer, go this way. If you're a consumer, go this way. But it's education for loan officers as well. Wow. Well, I know I had fun on it and I thought you did a great job and you had a great guest me. But no, it was a lot of fun. I think that you really bring a lot of value to the industry. So, you mentioned in passing and that was the purpose of the call today. It was more about the product, but that you are a coach. Let's talk a little bit about that just to kind of lay that out. What do you do as a coach? Obviously, you can't do everything. You know, because coaching originators and success, you know, there's so there's mindset and there's skills and there's technology and there's product knowledge and all that. So do you have a particular focus with the coaching and what does a typical client who comes to you for coaching look like? Yeah, so the typical client that comes to me is somebody who either has taken a big break in their career or has done a long career of forward loans and is now getting into reverse mortgages. And I think of the reverse mortgage industry a little bit like a mafia. People don't want to tell their secrets. They don't want to tell how to learn anything. They don't share a lot of information. Oh. If I'm sharing, somebody gonna kill me or shoot me or something if I'm if I'm sharing information. Not to that extent. I guess I shouldn't say, but like they're very like tight lipped. I was talking to a loan officer. He's like, I talked to three different guys and they just wouldn't tell me anything. Like I couldn't learn from them. They wouldn't share their trade secrets. I'm very different. We have a 2% market penetration, which means you and I are not competitors. We are competitors with the PE the 98% of people who have no idea what this loan is or maybe think it's something bad, right? And so the loan officer who finds me and I coach generally is going to try a reverse mortgage anyways. And that's the scary part. This is what I identified early on in my career. I was assistant manager for a big reverse mortgage division of a

25:18 Bigger forward company. And the loan officers would get a lead, right? Somebody, hey, my mom needs a reverse mortgage. Can you do it? And they would go, "Yeah, of course I can do it." And they definitely shouldn't have said that. And then they would they would attempt to do it because when a mortgage is like a mortgage, you can kind of figure your way out. And I remember those days being a forward loan officer. Being a reverse loan officer, there is so much more. And the responsibility is that much higher. This is more like an insurance and a financial planning product than it is any mortgage. Though it is through the mortgage, it is on the house. The way it works, you really have to have that higher level of knowledge. So when you ask what my job is, sometimes I feel like my job is just going to forward loan officers and going, "Don't try one until you know what you're doing." And when you want to know what you're doing, I got you. And then I help coach them through. I have training courses. I work with some financial advisors on how to look at this to teach the loan officers how to approach this. And just all the pitfalls, right? It's people are already kind of afraid of the process. They're kind of afraid of the reverse mortgage because they've heard bad things. They look into the numbers, they go, "Okay, well, I think it's good." But then they're really on edge. And you have to be very handholding. You have to be very careful how you present. You have to look out for their best interest and be absolutely genuine and tell them, "No, this isn't a good fit when it's not a good fit." So, I think some of my job I really just feel is like teaching loan officers how to stop selling and get on the same side of the table and say, "Let's look at this reverse mortgage. Is it the right fit for you and your goals and your situation?" And get on the same side of the table with the client. I couldn't agree more. I think that if there's one piece of career advice I give real estate agents or loan officers and it's based on my own experience when I stopped being a generalist and trying to do a lot of things and really focusing on one thing in my case probate real estate life changed because I could go deep and learn stuff I became an expert. I have to argue with clients. If

27:21 They don't agree with me they're not going to listen to me anyhow. So I don't really care. I generate enough business from that I could work with people who wanted to work with me. And I think that it also gives you opportunity to create value for your business rather than just you know competing on rates or points or fees like many forward mortgage lenders end up having to do. In reverse if you come up with a whole different approach and you combine the mortgage with an investment strategy or with the right investment advisor you're creating you're saving 10 20 $50,000. You get them into a estate plan instead of subject to probate. You're talking about saving them $50 $100,000 by being more professional than your competition. And so I think that's the opportunity and with so many people struggling, you know, the fat middle of our of our market, both originators and Realtors® struggling, the answer is not to try to do more things. It's really try to hone in on one. And the other thing I think, tell me if this is right, because I know it's true with Realtors®. I think it's true with originators. You know, with Realtors®, I say to them, you have in your database already, like if you're going to if you want to learn probate real estate, I would say, well, learn about probate real estate in your market area and then share what you learn with everybody you already know. You probably already know two 300 people. If you just did that, there are people in your world who are going to go, you know, it's so funny. My cousin's father passed away and he has a house. I don't know what to do with it.

28:41 That's a probate. And I would say the same thing with reverse mortgages. Somebody's going to say, "Oh, my mom is elderly and can't pay her bills and we're thinking about a mortgage. Can you help?" That's reverse mortgage possibly. And I just feel like if they just got clear on creating one, you know, direction and mastered it and then shared that with their current audience, there's business there that's going to the online lenders and the website lenders and the bad corporations that they're missing out on. They should get Now, you're a coach. Is that a fair assessment in mortgage as well? Oh, 100%. And that's one of the my biggest challenges like I'm thinking of a few coaching clients I have right now that they're doing forward loans, but I'm saying, okay, if you want to move your business to reverse and do more reverse, you need to talk about reverse. You need to brand yourself as reverse, right? Just like you said earlier, if you're a fast food company, well, if you say, Christina, I'm hungry, I want food, then I go, cool. What kind of food do you want? And if you say I want burritos, then Taco Bell might be the place that we go. But I probably wouldn't suggest McDonald's, but at least I have an idea of what and where each one lands, right? A lot of loan officers are of the mindset of I can do anything. I can do everything. But then that misses people. And so the biggest I think awesome part of my career was when I realized I needed to have resources online that said I am the reverse mortgage specialist. The light bulb went off for exactly what you're talking about. That when people think of reverse mortgage, they think of me, at least in my social network, right? And people want that same thing. I still have loan officers. I can do anything. Oh, and by the way, I can do reverse, too. And I can sell houses because I have a real estate license. Like, really? You're going to compete with me on listing a house? I could barely keep up with what's going on in documents and compliance and commissions and all stuff in real estate. You're going to compete with me and you're going to do forth mortgages and reverse mortgages? No. And you're going to sell insurance and you do securities? You're not you're not going to do any of it well. And that's the problem is if you're average, you're going to get whipped out from all angles these days, I think. So, you have to have a hard point of

30:44 Defense or hard point of valuation. And I do think that reverse mortgage is a great one for originators. I think it's underserviced and both I appreciate you as an example of the expertise as well as being a coach as well. And so Christina, for people want more Christina in their life, what's the best place for them to get that? Well, easy. Lots of Christina at Christina Christristina.com or www.christinaarmms.com or more than anything find my YouTube channel, subscribe. You can get lots and lots of info, free coaching on there, lots of free examples of what a reverse mortgage presentation looks like for actual clients. And there's just everything in there. Realtors® have videos in there. I grab my own links regularly to send to people just you know and me I'm on which is of all things are really important and me as well. So look Christina thank you so much for the time today talking about proprietary products that we called jumbo but really proprietary products as well as I have professional attitude towards it as well as coaching. I really appreciate meeting you and working with you and hopefully continuing to grow our business together. Thank you for your time today especially. Absolutely. Thank you for having me on. This has been wonderful as always. Bill, thanks. And for the rest of you, this is the Reverse Mortgage Podcast. We get together every week with originators, vendors, in some cases some management. Oops, wrong. I went to go to that page. Reverse Mortgage Podcast. You can continue the conversation on Facebook. We have a Facebook group called the Reverse Mortgage Podcast.

32:06 Just go there. If you have questions or referrals or looking for people to help you in certain areas, feel free to join in there. And as well, you can find me on social media at Bill Gross Probate. As always, make today your best day ever. Thanks so much.