5 Psychological Reasons Many Homeowners Resist Reverse Mortgages, with Shannon Hicks of HECMWorld.com

0:01 Welcome to the Reverse Mortgage Podcast. When I launched this podcast, my goal was to do two things, really. Was to raise the education level of the product to professionals like me, real estate agents, attorneys, financial planners. It was also to undo some of the stink of the past and some of the resistance people have to the reverse mortgage. I'm really excited to have here today one of the experts of reverse mortgages. He is the co-founder of HECM World, a great resource, audio, video, and written blog posts on the topic of reverse mortgage and related items in real estate, as well as the co-founder of Reverse Focus, which is a tool for real estate reverse mortgage professionals. Shannon, thank you so much for joining us today.

0:44 Real good to be back. Thank you for having me. In particular, I saw your recent blog post, which was five psychological reasons many homeowners resist reverse mortgages. Now, you know, I want to say the first reason that I never have rec- recommended one as a real estate professional was I didn't even know about the HECM for purchase. So, I'm just going to plead ignorance and say, before I got to resistance, once I thought about it, then I went to the psychological reasons I'm aware of. So, let's talk a little bit though about the idea. W- You know, you talk about the strongest res- are psychological, not financial. And I think that's just a lack of education and discussion. Tell me about your position and why is it more psychological than just purely financial?

1:27 Yeah, great question. And that's a question I've been pondering recently. You know, as reverse mortgage professionals in the field or mortgage professionals for that matter, I would say the vast majority of our energy and focus is on sales skills, right? Communication skills and rightly so. The better we can communicate with a homeowner or whoever your prospective audience may be, the more effectively you're going to be able to fact-find, uncover what the goals are, and to see if there's suitability, right? And eligibility for whatever the product may be and definitely applies to reverse. But in that process, I found Bill that a lot of a lot of sales people overlook the underlying current and that is the psychological reasons that motivate all of us as human beings when we come to making financial decisions because as you well know, most of our financial decisions are made with emotion and then later justified with logic. But sometimes that emotion can block us from making a decision that perhaps is in our best interest or would improve our retirement situation. And so that's what really prompted me to look into this, you know, I'll just come right out and say it, I'm not a psychologist. I have a very good friend who's a clinical psychologist and a daughter who's, you know, just graduated with their undergraduate degree, but I'm not a psychologist, but I'm a you know, and I would say an average student who's interested in just how we respond as human beings when we're presented with information because I'm in that same boat, you know, and so a lot of these I think are very common amongst all of us.

3:10 Well, I'll say if you can raise a daughter who graduated college and still talks to you, then you must be some sort of master of psychology because raising daughters is a handful of freshmen. So I and I think I think one of the things that we want before we start identifying the issues is it seems to me that the challenge that a rich person is having is they don't even aren't even aware or paying attention to the psychological need by their sales tactics. Like yesterday I saw a very large originator who I got invited to his webinar and it really was just it wasn't even live. And I'm thinking, if I'm scared, I'm nervous, I'm worried about my house, the last thing I want is some pre-recorded webinar of somebody who I can't talk to or reach out to. It just seems like that marketing tactic would irritate the biggest concern as opposed to That's why I do this podcast is to try to talk to people and talk them into talking to people because at the end of the day, rather than Facebook or Google, I think we as individual professionals can give our customers the comfort. So, what are things that an originator should see as a clue and say, "Hey, I'm talking too much to them about tactics and strategies, not enough about the soft skills." What are things they should be aware of to at least know that they're not addressing this underlying issue?

4:25 I think what you look at you kind of gauge the reactions, right? So, for example, if you see someone shutting down as a salesperson or an educator, and I'll say this, you know, all sales people are an educator to some extent, right? But you are a salesperson too, and that's not a dirty word. I mean, the boards on your fence in the backyard were sold by someone, right? So is the floor you stand on every morning. So, that's not a bad word, but if you're seeing that people are shutting down and getting overwhelmed, and it's a recurring pattern, perhaps it's one of the things I wrote about is cognitive overload, Bill, where we just get too much information, you know, I jokingly sometimes tell my wife when I come home it's like and she just downloads the day I go, "Baby, I'm drinking from a fire hose, right?" So, because I want to hear everything she says, but I need time to digest. And the same can apply for a homeowner who's learning about a reverse mortgage. And so, cognitive overload, I think, is one of the issues because the product's features can be somewhat complex to individuals, and so I think that's one thing we have to be aware of.

5:34 So, in your blog post you listed five particular issues. I would be one, but let's go let's kind of go in order just so I can keep track of it. One was moral conditioning. I found this you know, I never thought about this, but it makes sense that a people own a house free and clear. Now, as a Realtor®, I would say you at least should look at a reverse mortgage if your home is free and clear. You should at least look at a reverse mortgage if you're going to buy a house for cash. Probably 90% of the time you should get one, but at least everybody should look at that. Now, you described the moral conditioning where debt equals irresponsibility. Talk a little bit about that and why that's so destructive to people trying to maximize their retirement and their wealth.

6:12 Sure. You know, and I don't fault anyone for being brought up this way. I think there's a lot of validity in it. We see a lot of irresponsible consumer debt, but let's just pause and think for a moment the wealthiest men and women in America. And a lot of them learn to leverage debt in a responsible way and use it to kind of really springboard their fortunes. And so, OPM isn't bad. Other people's money. If you're going to you're when you get a mortgage on your home, you're using other people's money. And so, that mortgage debt has

6:44 Deemed as acceptable. I think where the rationale is that taking on debt again, especially after your home's been paid off, can feel like you're unwinding like you're unwinding many years of success.

7:00 Sorry about Sorry about that. I didn't put do not disturb on cuz I was waiting for a phone call. I'm sorry. It you know, and it's so true. I was thinking literally last night I was watching an episode of the TV series 1923, which is the precursor to Yellowstone.

7:15 Very good. And Harrison Ford Harrison Do you say it? The Harrison Ford character is like going to lose cuz of the you know, difficulties of ranching and cows and blah. He can't get a business loan to feed the cows, which is his business. He owns this enormous ranch, by the largest in Montana, and the largest house in Montana, free and clear. And I'm thinking, well, they didn't have a reverse mortgage then. But the banker is saying to him, "What's the difference if the loan's on the cows and you're going to pay it off or your house, you pay it off. A loan's a loan. It's just really an accounting strategy. Not that you want to spend it frivolously, but he would have loved to get the business loan at a higher rate than what might be a home loan or a reverse mortgage at a lower rate. And so it And why? Cuz he was determined to have his house free and clear for his family.

8:01 Right. Very good example. Yeah, they didn't have reverse mortgages back then, but you know, this conditioning probably started before John Dutton, you know, in the 1800s in the territory, Montana territory. But it is something that's really put into us and people folks have been trained, you know, I'm Gen X and then, you know, I'm right on the cusp of baby boomer late in. We were trained that debt is bad, except mortgage debt, right? So, when people pay that off, there's a real reluctance. They feel like they're going backwards to actually re-encumber the home with a reverse mortgage.

8:34 Right. Yeah. Yeah, it's amazing. And I think another term he uses identity conflict where people think themselves as successful. I retired and I sold my house is paid off free and clear. And yet now I got to sell some securities to cover this tax or I want to do this, go on vacation, I want to give a gift, but I don't want, you know, finance the house, whereas maybe there was some advantages to going that way. So, another barrier you talk about is a loss of control and anxiety where I think And I can see this, that once you start borrowing against your home's equity, it's easy to go back. And we And as originators and real estate professionals, we've seen people who've done this, right? They had a house that was worth, you know, maybe $2 million and over time they borrowed 1.5 million. Now they have a huge tax liability and they have a problem. So, talk a bit about the psychological side of that and then how, you know, where the barriers are that we can help people make the right decision.

9:24 So, there's a psychological and philosophical principle, locus of control. And so if you imagine a circle, right? And inside that circle are the things that we control in our lives, things that we have an effect on, which is good. If we focus on things outside of that circle, then that's when we begin to get anxiety, right? Or that angst. And we don't like that feeling. And so, a lot of homeowners mistakenly believe that getting a reverse mortgage somehow hands control over to the lender, when in fact it does that no more so than it would on a traditional mortgage or a HELOC for that matter. You still have a loan on the home. So, that locus of control, and hey, the desire for control is good. It's a human need. But one reason is that individuals may not feel that as much, and this is an interesting point, that on a traditional mortgage, they're willing to give up some of that control because they know over time they're paying that balance down. So, that kind of softens the blow a little bit. But yeah, we as human beings, we want to have control, but a reverse mortgage, as long as the homeowner keeps, you know, meets the terms of the loan, maintains the home, pays their property charges, property taxes, homeowner's insurance, HOA, whatever it may be. As long as they do those things, they're still in the same level of control that they were with their traditional mortgage.

10:46 You know, as a originator, I used to regularly have customers ask about prepayment penalties, and I would, instead of answering them, bring up the note and read the actual words. Say, "Look, it says right here, this is what you're going to sign. And when you sign it for real, we want to double-check that you see this. It says you can prepay in whole and part anytime without penalty. If it doesn't say that, we have a problem. But it says that, they can't change that." Same with reverse mortgage, it talks about paying off the loan upon death, what your options are. And I think as originators, if we read those documents and know them better, and convey that confidence by showing the customer that they're in control, here's the document we're asking you to sign, not me, and here's what it says, I think it would give them more of a sense of understanding what's going on, rather than in their little minds, they saw in a movie once somebody lost their house, and they don't want that to happen to them.

11:33 Right. I mean, you watch Hell or High Water, you know, and by the way, Taylor Sheridan, a great writer, screenwriter, but you know, you Amazing. You look at that movie and you might think, oh gosh, all reverse mortgages are terrible. No, it's just a storyline. No, I think you make a good point. I think for mortgage professionals don't just tell, show and tell. Show them in the note like you just said mention there and I think that's a very good point.

11:57 Another barrier you talk about that's true for everybody and everything is a status quo bias, right? We stay with what we have. We're comfortable with the devil that we know. And so if we if we have a you know, we're a residual balance on a mortgage that's 12 years old or 20 years old and it you know, we don't want to do anything with it cuz we want we want to get down to paying it off like we've been on that track so long. So, you know, obviously like everything in life you know, it starts with psychology and what your goal is. How do we get How do we get homeowners who really can benefit from maybe some tax savings or other benefits to understanding that yes, even at the age of 65, 70 or older you're in control of things and you can change the status quo for the better if you if you're in charge of the wheel.

12:42 And that's so true. I mean, as human beings, we love rats, right? We love routines, we love the status quo. So, no fault in there, but the question that I always ask individuals, especially if after really speaking with the homeowner and it's determined there's a lot of benefit, potential benefits for them if that is the case, then the questions I'll ask is, hey, in 5 years from now, if you don't do this, how will your retirement look? And then the other is more of a positive affirmation, which is, hey, imagine yourself in 5 years with no mortgage payment, you've taken your grandkids and your family on a vacation that you paid for so you can all spend time together. What would that feel like? It because there's this false assumption, I think, amongst many of us that he who dies or he or she who dies with the most equity wins. And to what benefit? You know, as apparently you can't take your equity from your home when you die and use it as a down payment on your mansion in heaven or wherever you want to go, right?

13:43 Really? You can't do that. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe we think that strategy then. Yeah, that strategy may not work. I don't know.

13:52 Well, I think the goal obviously would be able to spend the last dollar with your last breath and make sure you make your life as wonderful and fulfilling as you can up until that last breath, but we don't have that clock either. We don't have the calendar tells us when that is. If we knew, I think we would all act a little different. Speaking of which another psychological barrier you mentioned is kind of shame and the judgment or what you call the self-discrepancy between you know, who I am, I'm in control, I've paid off my mortgage versus yeah, I am in control and I have this wonderful plan and we're going to really enjoy more than we thought we could by using proper tactics, reducing our taxes, maximizing using our income. So, talk a little bit about that self-discrepancy and how we get people to I think maybe annunciate that to us. I don't think we can really address it unless they unless they blurt out somehow.

14:39 Right. It's this is a tricky subject because you know, as a mortgage professional, you may be sitting with someone who's just really had poor financial management skills over the over decades. And by the way, those don't disappear when you get a reverse mortgage, right? Or when you retire. So, but that individual may see themselves as a success. So, if that's the case, they may falsely attribute a reverse mortgage as a sign of failure and that cognitive dissonance, I guess, for lack of a better word can create some real conflict, inner conflict. And so, that judgment often really is unspoken, but it really is playing a big part in an individual's mind. So, yeah, shame and self-judgment. Getting a reverse mortgage, by the way, I've had clients that are have net worth of several million dollars who got a reverse mortgage. Were they poor? No. Were they desperate? Certainly not. But, they each had their reasons. So, a particular loan you take out doesn't mean you're a failure. It's what you do with it. And what it's going to accomplish.

15:48 The last one we covered a bit before was a cognitive overload. I know that when I have interviewed some originators or watched their marketing material or gone on their websites, I know that there's a lot talking and a lot of numbers and not as much personal interaction to help design something for the individual. And imagine all those numbers and all the options at some point can just cause your brain to say, "I can't handle this and make a good decision." no. It's just easier to say no than it is to work through it. So, what are some strategies we talked a little bit in the beginning. What are some strategies to help the customer or client at the time to evaluate without being overloaded? But, it is a very complicated product. There's a million different variations of it, which they're all different. Lines of credit, no lines of credit, payments, no payments, lump sums, no lump sums. What are some things we can do to help the customer be more capable in evaluating their options more effectively?

16:43 You really kind of hinted at it in your comment just a moment ago, and I think it's so important. We get overly focused. We can as sales people and you know, features and benefits with without really custom crafting a plan that meets the concerns, the worries of the homeowner, the goals and aspirations. And so, yes, covering the product is important, but my goodness, if you don't know what's going on in that individual's life and how long their retirement is expected to last, you're not really meeting a need, you're selling a loan. And so, you know, the reverse mortgage can be a great tool, not all the time. It's not a panacea, but it can be a great tool to solve a host of challenges that retirees face. One short story is I even had a relative of mine, and this speaks to this question of cognitive overload. She was working with a friend of mine who's been in the business for 20 years, but she called me and she goes, "You know, I'm just not really sure about it." And I said, "That's fine, totally natural. You've taken in a lot of information." I said, "Why don't you do this?" I said, "Take a few days, three, four days, just, you know, let it percolate, and write down on a piece of paper, maybe the pros and cons, but there's one question I want to ask. If you don't do this, what is your plan B? Because they had earlier told me that they were going to run out of funds in 3 years at the pace they're spending for in-home health care." And so, sure as rain, four, five days later, I get the phone call, "Yep, we're ready." So, people need space and time to make decisions, and I think that's very important. And that webinar you mentioned that was pre-recorded, Bill, is very key because if it had been live, then you could have interacted with those attendees of that webinar and helped answer some questions and interaction. So, I think that's so key when you're dealing with people, give them time and space to figure it out. This is not a sprint. You know, reverse mortgage is, hopefully, not hopefully, but oftentimes

18:47 Is the last mortgage that an individual may get. You know, I often hear sales people, real estate agents not get the listing, buyer agents not get the contract signed, originators not get the loan done. And they'll say, "Well, the customer just didn't understand. The customer didn't really see it. The customer And I've always said to them, "Look, the question to ask is what could I have done so that the customer would have seen what was best for them and made the right choice. Because ultimately, it's on us. Like if I did a better job presenting their options, obviously people always going to pick the better option for themselves. I just must not have made that option clear or in a way that they could accept it and move on to it. So, what are some things that originators can do? I mean, I know there's some coaching, though to me it seems like most of the coaching is related to technical, which is important. I see more coaching on the technical products and technology and things like that. What are some things that an originator can do to make themselves accountable and do some of that kind of self-evaluation or you know, after market a review and then come back next time and be better at serving the customer?

19:58 That's a great question, Bill. One thing I think is, you know, be a little more focused on the homeowner or the individual you're speaking with rather than yourself. And I know that sounds a little harsh, but as sales people can get a little self-focused at times. It's not about you. It's about the homeowner, right? In this case of a reverse mortgage. One practical technique, one that I used to use is to present information in chunks. As an old Nigerian friend told me 20 years ago, Shannon, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. You know, the village did, right? So, there's truth in that saying from my wise friend, and that is stop for a moment when you present some information as a mortgage professional or a Realtor®, whatever it may be, whatever product you're selling, and say, "I'd like to stop right here and just ask you, does this all make sense or do we need to go over thing anything before we move on?" By doing that, what you're doing is you're moving that information from short-term memory, which functions much like the RAM or the temporary memory in our computer, to the hard drive. Now it can move, now there's space to discuss the other thing. So, you know, we have finite mental bandwidth and if you're exceeding that, you're going to have some real issues. So, that's one way you can do that. Pause, affirm, or find out if you need to go back and clarify, then move on.

21:19 I think one of the, tools that I would point originators to is your HECMWorld. Because I think sometimes that we get so caught up in, the technical and the guidelines and I think just the interest rates, which is important to follow, but talking about things like the psychology, talking about the ways to present things with other originators, I think it's important. I think that gets lost along the way and I know you do a good job of covering You do have a, you know, a take on the market regularly, which is interesting. I follow a bit. I try to I personally try not to get too caught up in it. I always feel like the rates are where they are today and they'll be where they are tomorrow and I'll have to deal with it then. And for now, I got enough on my plate to worry about, but I do think that originators should also more focus on how can I be more effective at presenting and usually that's going to mean asking better questions and tracking their customers. So, that's all said, how does the industry grow? You know, I sit here, you know, if you asked me as a real estate professional, not an originator, but as a real estate broker, those are former originator and executive, I would say that as an industry, we should be doing 10 times, I've said this when I launched my this podcast a year and a half ago and I'm more confident than ever before, we should be doing 10 times more reverse mortgages as an industry than we are, but for our inability to explain it to the prospects effectively. That's my belief.

22:42 So, I know that you do one piece of this great, which is you help educate the originators to raise the standard and raise their information. As an industry, what else do we need to do or is that really should be the focus? What do we do to raise the professional standards both of those in the business and attract new good people who can add to the industry to help us meet this, I think, really untapped need for homeowners.

23:04 I agree there's an untapped need, and I believe that the number of federally insured reverse mortgages, and folks, we call that the home equity conversion mortgage, or HECM for short, but it's a federally insured reverse mortgage. I think its penetration in the market does not really reflect the need for housing wealth in retirement. But that said, I think part of the challenge of our industry one, there's I think there's a couple factors. One is that the HUD and FHA have really curtailed the program as far as its benefits and how it's structured in a way where today's borrower is not getting as much as the borrowers in the past. Now, there were certainly some tweaks that needed to be made and the program needed some fine-tuning to reduce risk to the FHA insurance fund. But that said, that's one of the challenges. The second one, I think, is a bigger one is that our industry has been so HECM-focused, or focused on the federally insured reverse mortgage that I'm not saying every individual, but most individuals out there are looking at that person trying to get them to get a HECM. Maybe it's not the right fit, and this is what's exciting, Bill, is I'm seeing more and more, and you've seen this, too, more and more reverse mortgage lenders are developing these private loan products. They're called proprietary, but they're the loan products developed by you know, individual lenders that aren't really reverse mortgages at all, but they function in a way that allows an older homeowner to tap into their equity. There is, for example, there's a HELOC, you know, for seniors. There's equity select. These different products from different lenders that avoid the payment shock that a HELOC's going to give you. That gives you a fixed payment, so you can, you know, plan around your fixed income. So there's a suite of products now that are alternatives. Maybe the HECM is right, but now there's a plethora of products in the marketplace and I think that's good because no longer are we saying, "Hey, this is the

25:06 HECM. And this is the HECM. And this is great. You know, you should really get one or you consider one." Now we can say, "Well, what are your needs? You know, what's your long-term goals? Do you want to have negative equity or do you want to just pay the interest only? And by the way, you can do that on some of these loans for 30, 40 years if you want. That way you're not eroding the accumulated equity for your heirs if that's a concern. So, I believe that yes, the adoption of the federal insured reverse mortgage is not where it should be, but I think part of that is again government regulations and cutbacks, but also it's maybe not the right loan for as many people as individuals believe. There's a need for equity loans and there's a need to tap into home equity. So, it really depends on the individual, but yes, that said, I would think our industry as a whole could do a much better job in communicating with the public what a reverse mortgage is and becoming a little more sensitive, I think to the needs of the consumer in that process.

26:07 It just seems to me there's a desire for the equity-based products. I think that the problem is the government is too high percentage. I think it's like 90 something percentage of them are done. And like you said, I've seen these new products rolling out, but it's interesting. They're by, you know, good solid companies and I and I've been interviewed some of my podcasts and want to support them, but I don't see major banks, major financial institutions developing and launching it unless they keep it proprietary for themselves. And I think until this becomes more like a Wall Street type situation where there are proprietary products that are available for all originators and there's some sort of standardization of the product, it's going to be limited and I don't know how to I don't know that I can change that, but I certainly want to encourage looking at new products, looking at the proprietary products, supporting those companies that are making changes because what I do know is there's too many people with equity, they're locked in and that we're just not we're not addressing them. One of the other questions is who's the right person to help carry the homeowner over the over the finish line. You know, there's a couple different opportunities here. One is I think the origination business is consolidating cuz technology and you know, the refinance boom I think changed the structures of these companies so much that the head count is dropping tremendously. I see so many haves and have-nots in the mortgage industry.

27:27 Do we retool those? And then I also the argument and I experienced it that some of them aren't retoolable, that some of these people who were originators who came in when refis were easy don't have the skills that we're better off maybe finding some new young people to train particularly the psychology we talked about. What are what are your thoughts as far as the industry, where should the focus be on transferring front originators or you know, traditional mortgage agents into reverse mortgages or really do it does these larger companies need to be seeking out new sales people and train them properly and make them specialists in this field?

28:01 You know, I think the latter's been tried for a number of years, right? I mean the within the reverse mortgage industry. Bring people in, make them reverse mortgage specialists. And a number of them succeeded really well and that's been proven. But I think just the law of numbers, the scale of the traditional mortgage origination workforce is it's vast. And so it we're just a drop in the ocean compared to that. So I think it's really education coming from the lenders and I would say from the mortgage industry that the home equity conversion mortgage or these alternative equity release loans that we just discussed are part of the mortgage landscape. So I think I think our most bang for our buck is to work with these individuals, these lenders, and especially lenders that are doing both, right? Traditional and reverse mortgage. And really getting the mortgage professional and originator, loan officer to understand that this is just another tool in your pocket. Now, you're not going to discuss these with a 30-year-old couple. But, someone who's in their 50s or 60s, this can be part of the conversation. And I think that would help scale the industry very well, I think it would be very substantial how it would scale the industry and the production of home equity loans including the HECM.

29:23 And it seems to me that originator who maybe is struggling to grow their business, but has some past clients, those are right people for reverse mortgages. And while the company struggle to train them, you offer some services. I guess it's HECMWorld's a great education resource. You also have reverse for focus, which is more, I guess, tool-based for originators. Where some of the heavy lifting of the how does a loan work part can be automated. But, the relationship and the contact with the customer that's so valuable that the I think that's the opportunity that's being missed by so many originators who are struggling right now.

29:59 I agree. And you know, some of the more successful sales trainers I've seen have actually, you know, especially if you're meeting people in the field, they've actually rode shotgun with them, sat in the home with the homeowner, with the loan officer. I think it's really important to find a mentor. And whether it's reverse mortgage lending, mortgage lending, or any type of business, a mentorship I think is so key because it really gives you a leg up as you're really getting the benefit of years of wisdom and experience that you just would have to learn on your own.

30:30 Well, speaking of years of wisdom and experience, people often say, "How do I get it?" A mentor being one. Another one is Shannon Hicks kind of puts it all out there. If you're interested in more, you offer HECMWorld. Talk a little bit about HECMWorld, what the purpose of it is, and where you see people giving you the most I mean, I like it, but tell me when people say, "I love it because" what's the most common reaction you get?

30:50 I think most of the comments that are positive are centered on, "Oh, I hadn't thought of that before. This is a different way to look at it." And part of that reason, Bill, is because HECM world is not really a news website. You know, my passion is taking what's happening in the mortgage industry or in aging and retirement, the housing market, those topics generally, and telling people not just what happened, but what this means. And so, really analysis is really where I want to help the mortgage professional out there see things maybe in a different light, a different angle. And that's what I really enjoy doing. So, we have a audio podcast, as you see there. We've been doing that for 17 years. I think 912 weeks so far. So, do the math on that. Yeah, that's a quite a few weeks and a few gray hairs ago. We have a video version, a companion version of each podcast episode as well. And then, the Monday is really geared for the mortgage professional. Then, we have a Friday series that covers broad array of topics. It's really It's kind of a mishmash of what's happening. And so, that's what it's for. It is a It's not a consumer-facing website per se, but we do get older homeowners that come in here and leave me comments or send me emails, but generally the audience is mortgage professionals. So, if any mortgage professionals out there watching, I would encourage you to go there and subscribe. And if you're even just minutely interested in reverse mortgages, I think you'll find some value in it. And so, that's what we do there.

32:25 I think leaders in the sales area of reverse mortgage also should make sure they're promoting this content to their staff. I mean, not all not all applies everybody, but like I saw the article on California lenders' fiduciaries. And you talked about the issue of fiduciary what does it mean? I'm California it was an interesting article for me. So again, I think this is a great resource for people. And I remember I first went to this, I saw at the time it was something else but now it's E913 I thought that's kind of interesting coding and what that stands for. It can't be episode 913. Nobody's done 913 weekly episodes. You have.

33:01 I actually have. Yeah, so you divide that into weeks and that's a lot of weeks, right? So yeah, about 17 years. I You know, funny thing is that I started podcasting because when I was driving from appointment to appointment, you know, I live in Northern California. So sometimes I'd be in the Bay Area, you know, Mountain View or you know, Vallejo or San Jose where I might be up by the Oregon border. I had a little I don't know. This is going to show how old I am but I had an iPod. Basically that little white box, right? With all that stuff in it and I really got into podcasting.

33:32 That was great. Podcasts were just coming out, right? And I found the medium so fascinating. So one day I stopped at the Apple campus, not the new one they have now, and stopped at the mothership as we called it. And went into their bookstore and I bought a book on podcasting and I thought this is what I'm going to do. So yeah, that's how it began. Yeah. And you know, it's been a few episodes but it's been fun.

33:58 Well again, I appreciate the contribution and also you have Reverse Focus which is as I mentioned also. We could hold do a whole another episode really on that which is really a tool designed to I think help originators be more effective at being originators and so those are the two products there we go. Reverse winning toolkit for mortgage originators to achieve. And again

34:21 Suite of tools, yeah. Reverse Focus and we began this is created by myself and other individuals. We were a top if not the number one branch in the nation originating. So we were there at the kitchen table and doing workshops and you know, there with the homeowner. So, we created this as people working in the trenches so to speak. So, we have a suite of tools. We have a turnkey professional website. If you're considering offering reverse mortgages, if you don't have a website, you don't have the credibility that homeowners or their adult children are looking for. So, we help you with that. We also have a

34:57 Relationship manager. So, a CRM. So, you can take those you know, that old book of business and just begin to mine some of the golden that's buried in there. We also help people with local SEO which is kind of interesting. You know, a lot of people promise SEO you're going to be ranked number one in the nation. That's just that's just garbage unless you have millions to invest. But, we can help people shine in a specific market. So, it could be in a particular county or metropolitan area and get them ranked on the first page. So, that's what we do. You know, our goal is really to help the mortgage professional prospect, nurture these loans and close more of them for reverse mortgages.

35:38 I think you hit the spot. You have to have a website. I don't use mine at all for lead generation, but more to send people to after I've talked to them initially and they're going to send that to their family members, their attorney, their this, their that. The attorney is going to send it to the customer. That's the So, what's the impression you want people to start with you and that's why it's such a powerful I think starting basis. The lead generation part is important, can be done, but I think more the credibility especially with reverse mortgages. I think that elderly people are going to revert, you know, revert it by their kids. How they going to present it? Well, your website is the way they're going to present that. So,

36:14 I was going to say our co-founder, his mom was going to get window coverings about 15,000. This is years ago and he goes, well, he looked at the card. He goes, what's his website? Couldn't find him. He lost the deal and he'll will know that it was because he didn't have a website and the same applies for mortgage professionals.

36:30 And it shouldn't be just their company's page unless it's easy to get to. There's other things behind all that. So, really what do you what do you want your customer to see? Companies who give us websites, they want to tell them how good the company is. Nothing wrong with that. But if we want to promote our business and for professionals, you have to own your business and this is a important piece. So, again Shannon, you know, you do so much. Again, we could do a whole episode on Reverse Focus. Maybe we'll do that some other time. Thank you so much for joining us today and sharing with us and your perspective. The blog post was amazing and on HECMWorld.com, you're an amazing resource. Thank you so much for what you do for the industry as well.

37:02 It's an honor to be here. Thank you, Bill and great to be with all of you and our viewers your viewers. So, thank you very much. And for the rest of you, this was Reverse Mortgage Podcast. We get mortgage originators as well as vendors to learn how to better serve our customers. I'm a real estate agent, but I want to learn how to better prepare this cuz I have customers who should be buying all cash or using cash to buy an investment property or something else. It's a great opportunity for us. Also, if you happen to know somebody who has problems with the reverse mortgage for them, maybe their parents and they've passed, that's where the probate comes to play. If I can help with that, please feel free to reach out. I'm @bigrichprobate on social media as always. Make today your best