Finding the Right Reverse Mortgage for You, with Jason Eichmiller

0:01 So today we're I'm lucky to have the guy who really inspired me to do this podcast about a year and a half ago as a guest on my other podcast probably weekly I had Jason Immiller who's a reverse mortgage professional one of the top in the country and one of the first I met who specialized in it and after talking to him I said you know what I really like this space I really want to learn more about it I want to meet more people I think I'm gonna launch Reverse Mortgage Podcast and we talked a little bit about how we could do something together and I forgot all about that conversation and here we are now a year and a half later I've 45 episodes. I've hadund and something thousand views on Reverse Mortgage Podcast. I'm back to the person who inspired it, Jason. Jason, thank you so much for your inspiration and joining me again today.

0:41 I don't know if anybody has ever called me an inspiration before. So, this is pretty neat, Bill. Let's roll with it. [laughter] Let's go. Let's go. Okay. So, reverse mortgages and this is an area that you worked in. I think the thing that I jumped on initially when I met you was I had never met anybody who had really claimed that was their specialization as opposed to the standalone officer who would give me a business card that says I do FHA, VA, first-time buyer, investors, lots, real estate, retail, commercial, industrial bridges, and reverse mortgages. They do nothing. Versus somebody who focuses in on this area. Tell me a little bit about your decision to focus in on the verse mortgage space. Yeah. So, I did not go to school, thinking of reverse mortgages. I didn't, when I was five, I didn't think, I'm going to be a reverse mortgage specialist when I grow up.

1:29 None of that stuff happened. I had, we'll go into like kind of my past. In 2008, I was living in Baltimore, Maryland, and I had a long-distance relationship with a wonderful young lady who lived in Philadelphia. And we were doing the long-distance thing for a while and eventually she went to grad school. She was getting her master's in I think finance at St. Joseph's. So pretty prestigious. She's pretty smart. And she said, "Hey, if we're going to make this I want to make this thing work. If we're going to make this thing work, you're going to move on up and you're going to be a Philly guy." So I said, "I'm going to make this thing happen. Let's go." So I moved up to Philly. We had a we had a house in a nice neighborhood, making friends, but the one thing I didn't have was the job. So, I kept seeing these Robert Wagner these reverse mortgage commercials with Robert Wagner on them, and it just seemed interesting. And at that point in time, I didn't know anything about reverses. It seemed like we'd give seniors some money, and then maybe in the end, we'd take their we meaning the reverse mortgage company, would take their house. And I thought maybe for the right person, if they need the money, it's all about them, right? Their kids can get less. But I didn't understand it was safe and secure and all those good things. But fast forward a few weeks, I'm still searching for a job. I'm on Craigslist and I see that the same the same company that showed the reverse mortgage ads with Bobby Wags, they were hiring and they were hiring in Philadelphia. And I put two and two together and I said, "Well, I am jobless. I can go in for an interview anytime. So went in, spoke with the owner of the company. He proceeded to school me on again like why these are really good programs that help seniors make a just a drastic difference in their lives. And I've found that by just doing this for the past 17 years.

3:18 And he showed me how, hey, you don't hurt their kids either, unless their kids are very greedy. And then phooey on them. So I said, "Hey, I'm jobless. Seems like it's a good thing. I can make a couple bucks. Let's go." So, I started the next week and that's that is how I entered the wonderful world of reverse mortgages. I think exactly 17 years ago

3:37 If my math's correct. Yeah. December of 20 2008. Wow. And what's you end up with a girl? Did you end up she still in your life or how

3:48 Yeah, Bridget [clears throat] is my wife. Got three kids, three dogs with her. We now live in sunny well most of the time sunny. Wellington, Florida, which is right outside of West Palm Beach. I finally got her out of Philly.

4:02 Nice. Greatest sale of my life. Both my parents are from Philly. I think I was conceived in Philly, but my parents drove here, California, and I was born here. So, I'm kind of Philly. I'm kind of a Philly bred type. Anyhow, so let's talk about reverse mortgages. I think one of the things, you've been at this a while

4:19 And you've seen a thing or two in the reverse mortgage space. There, you know, when you talk about the TV commercials, most commonly it's kind of like there's a hammer and a nail and that's the loan you're going to get. And I think one of the things that's really been short changed for consumers is finding the right package, the right loan for them. Talk a little bit about the difference between, hey, here's reverse mortgage, great, sign the paperwork, and really customizing a solution for the individual customer. Yeah. And first of all, to defend the reverse mortgage commercials. Now, I don't know besides Fred Thompson, I believe his mother had a reverse mortgage. So, he's kind of my hero as far as the celebrity spokesman. Tom Celich, Bobby Wag, I knew that Robert Wagner was not a nice guy when he was offset. Didn't like him at all. I met him once or twice. Celich, don't know. I have no idea if he knows anything about reverses or not, but he's a good actor. So, in defense of these commercials, you've got about a 30-cond or a 60-second piece to talk about reverses. There is no way that you can go into absolutely everything, all the aspects of reverses. It's just the commercial, as you understand and everybody watching this, the commercial is just to incite a reaction say like, "Hey, you know what? I could use maybe I could use some money out of my house to help my retirement." And now that Tom Celich says it's safe, it must be so, right? Fortunately, they are safe and secure and they're regulated by HUD and the FHA as all of us know. With that said, a I forget who coined the phrase, but a prominent either financial advisor or CPA called a reverse mortgage the Swiss Army knife of retirement.

6:02 Me. Yeah. So, no surprise there. But there are different types of reverse mortgages. And I think as an originator or somebody who's trying to serve at kind of the best of their own of their ability, you sell your client short if you're not if you're not really diving into every single each different reverse. So what I tell folks when I first speak with them is sort of a summary of I have no idea if this is right for you. I have no idea if you qualify. I have no idea if you're going to want to do it. I don't even know if you qualify which one, which type of reverse mortgage is going to be best for you. So, through our first call or two, my whole goal with this is to figure out, okay, what do you need this for? Like, where's the pain? Is it you need your parents need home health care? You're you've got credit cards up the wizoo and you need some relief. Your mortgage payment's too high. You're back on your taxes. You don't have any problems. You're just trying to maximize every single asset for retirement. And each of those scenarios could mean a different reverse mortgage program. So I think we I think we owe it to our clients to really to go over to learn as much as possible about our clients so that we can really recommend the best program for them.

7:32 That makes sense. No, it makes a lot of sense. I think that you know I use the analogy of Swiss Army knife. I love my Swiss Army knife. It was given to me by my stepfather. I keep it right here on my desk because it's you know it's not a great screwdriver. Is not a great knife. It's not a great scissors, but it's right here and use available. And then if I wanted to get something more specific, I go to the toolbox and get something more specific. And the same with reverse mortgages. I think that one of the overlooked pieces would jump caused me to jump into this space was so many people would buy a house for cash and for example, not get a Swiss Army knife, you know, u reverse mortgage. If you don't need the money, fine, but get the reverse mortgage in place when you buy the property so that if you need it is there for you at some point in time, right? The Swiss Army knife approach to it. So, I would see, you know, as a real estate agent, so many buyers buying, say, buying down a retirement home, moving and paying cash, thinking that's probably not the right alternative, risk-wise, consolidating their assets in one spot-wise, liquidity wise. And that was kind of what caused me to look at it was the people who a own property free and clear and don't have verse mortgage and the house burned down and they got pummeled versus being able to at least write a check for some of the equity right away and make the transition easier and then be people buying for cash and tying up all their money makes no sense at all.

9:00 Yeah. I think now obviously there's nothing perfect but Powerball, [clears throat] right? So, if you've got a billion dollars or you know, hold. Nothing perfect. Powerball's perfect.

9:11 Oh, I think it would be pretty okay. I mean, it's kind of hard to get, you know, one in 292.5 million chance of winning. I won $4 last week, but I didn't. I actually just lost six because I spent $10 on the five tickets. So, negative6 as far as far as that goes. But yeah, I feel like if you have if you have all the money in the world that you think you'll need and in that point you'll have a financial adviser and they think that you're completely okay and you don't need anything else, then sure, buy your house cash. You're fine. If it if you feel good about it, then you don't need this. You don't need extra money. You don't need any of these tools. And that's what a reverse is. It's just again back to the Swiss Army knife thing. It's just a tool. But I'll tell you, there have been so many people that I've helped use reverses to buy. And one of two things happens because in a at a high enough level, if you use a reverse mortgage, let's say to buy a $500,000 home, you put down about 60%. Depending on your age, could be more, could be less, but say about you put down about 60%, so you're putting down 300 and the reverses carry is covering the 200. So now you have somebody who's leveraged their money to buy a house. Let's say they only had $300,000 to put down. They were looking at a $300,000 house. Now they can buy this perfect place that they've always wanted for $500. So they've leveraged that money to buy more and their assets are still in their piggy bank. And again, if you have $23 million, you don't really care about that extra 200. But if you have $400, then you damn well better be caring about that extra $200,000 because everyone, you, Bill, me, every reverse originator that you've had on these this show, they can tell you horror stories about Murphy's law. And when you don't, when you're not ready, the oh, you know what's come out and you got to be writing checks for stuff that you didn't

11:13 Think you'd have to write checks for. So any financial adviser will tell you need to have you need to have that foundation that rainy day fund and this just helps you.

11:23 You know this is a conversation I remember now that really opened my eyes because about a year and a half ago you and I were talking and at the time I was looking at perhaps buying a condo in Florida and my thinking was [clears throat] I make that my residence, make that my tax base for my business,

11:39 Keep the house here in LA as a second home for my wife because we're near our grandkids and such. I'd have to spend at least six months in Florida. Okay, we could I could work on all that somehow

11:49 In a homestead. Cool. No taxes. We could work all that out somehow. And I had about $500,000 cash without accessing my equity in my house. Or having to sell the house.

11:59 Well, I realized in talking to you, well, but I could probably I was shopping and all the $500,000 condos I was looking at just weren't quite right. But also, well, no, I could buy $800,000 in for the same monthly pay, same amount because it's reverse mortgage. I'm not going to make the payment on it that it the cond's going up in value as much as the line of credit. Why would I not use reverse mortgage and buy the property that I want rather than squeeze in the one that I don't want? And so I realized, well, as a real estate agent, why don't I know this? Like you and I talked about this. Why did I know? And most real estate agents don't know this. Why do we not know this? I said, you know, we need to have a podcast to get the word out. To get originators talking to real estate agents, get real estate agents to learn about this process to say people buying for cash at leis explore, hey, can you buy more with a reverse mortgage and get a better home, an extra room, and like in my case, it'd be an extra room so that when the family comes, they is more comfortable.

12:51 Yeah. Or you could buy the same thing. So, say you have $500,000, instead of buying the $800,000 condo, you can stick with the $500,000 condo and only put 300 down. And then you've got again that extra juice in your piggy bank. So just depending on where you're at,

13:07 The challenge if we would want to go down the rabbit hole of condos and reverse mortgages, there are challenges and this is where [clears throat] kind of having all the programs and all the lenders behind you where it becomes valuable. I don't know if anybody's spoken about this before, probably have, but getting a HECMs reverse, which is the government reverse, getting that on a condo, especially in Florida, a lot of other states too, is very tough because the condo has to be approved and eligible for FHA financing,

13:46 Right? If you go proprietary, which is it's the same thing. It's a reverse mortgage just like a HECM. It's just not insured by the government. They have to self-insure. We can go if we want to go down that rabbit hole of like what the differences are. Glad to. But there's actually one or two lenders out there that make getting approved for condos on the proprietary end very simple. And I'm talking about an eight questionnaire. True. Get the insurance, master policy. Great. Good to go. The thing closes where it would never ever be eligible with a HECMs or another proprietary lender who has a lot of these other proprietary lenders. They'll have condo approval processes that mirror the HUD and FHAs. I've got a couple videos that I've done on this and I've helped some people into condos and some folks who have had like Miami Beach area have had assessments on their condos and it's just costing them way too much money and they I don't know what they would have done without a reverse mortgage and it's just they had tried before and they gotten turned down because the originator was just doing the HECM or they were from the one reverse mortgage company that doesn't have the other options. So, had a couple where we've closed it, but they've told me like, "Hey, you were the last reverse mortgage person that I was going to talk to, and I didn't believe that you were going to do it until the thing actually closed."

15:10 So, it's kind of cool. If I was a real estate agent living in a condo in South Florida, I would find out what we qualify for. If it's a HECM, great. I'd shout from the rooftops. If it's not, find the proprietary product, see if you qualify, get the documents together. If so, great. Shout from the rooftops. Hey, we have a reverse mortgage product. For anybody who wants to get one who's in the building or anybody who wants to move in the building, please let me know. And I just feel like these are the areas where real estate agents, we spend so much time looking like we're experts and looking fancy and we're part teams and dressing up the part versus

15:42 Getting the information to help the customer get what they want, which in this case really is they want to buy property they can afford. And the reverse mortgage is one tool or one method that can help expand that opportunity to more people. So, you've been at this a long time, 17 years. I did a reverse mortgage. I think my first one probably around that time as well. I was a originator before I was a Realtor®. Did a couple reverse mortgages. Love the product, but I decided to go into real estate versus mortgages, you know, for a lot of reasons, but you know, I remember the first product, it seemed like there was mostly scam artists and me. And now the

16:19 Me too. Two of us who aren't scam artists. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I didn't know you ac across the country but yeah and then now though I see the program is completely different. There's more safeguards and more procedures. Talk about the difference of the program how it's evolved and so when people say reverse mortgage if they're thinking 2008 2009 it's a whole new world today.

16:41 Yeah. So when you look at from a 10,000 foot view I'm going to disappoint you. The program is very similar. The safeguards are pretty neat though. So, one of the things that's kind of come up that's came across either in 2013 or 2015, I don't know, the numbers kind of the years kind of like jumble together, is we actually take a look and we figure out, hey, we're going to give you some money. Can you I mean, we know that you're not making payments on it because that's the whole gist of the reverse and that's why everybody who actually understands it wants it. But with this money that we're giving you, can you still all like afford all of your other expenses? Your property taxes, your homeowners insurance, your HOA if you have one, your credit card bills, your utility bills. One thing that we I'm saying we like as kind of as an industry and HUD and the FHA who they're the governing bodies of these reverses, they decided that they don't want to churn, which means they don't want to write a reverse mortgage and then have somebody still not be able to afford their life in their house and just have to sell it. You know, kick the can down the road and sell it in two or three years. That doesn't help anybody.

17:59 It gets a sale. Woohoo. It makes a senior feel good for about six months. Great. And then they're right back to the same old program or problem. So, that's one of the really neat changes about reverses. And again, I forget exactly what year it was, is we're going to look, we're going to do what's called a financial assessment and high enough level. We'll look and see if you have a pattern of being responsible with your bills. Now, if you had to miss your mortgage payment or credit cards or your property taxes because you're in the hospital or you lost your job due to COVID or your spouse passed away, it's okay. We just have to know. We kind of have to figure that out and detail that out in a letter of explanation and show that like, hey, this isn't this isn't Sus's fault. She was just up against the wall. It was kind of a one or a twotime thing. And now that Susie has this, it's going to be a blessing for her. She's going to be able to pay off all of her bills. And Susie, again, no magic crystal ball or anything, but the way it looks, Susie is going to be able to afford her senior living expenses and live in her home comfortably, at least financially comfortably for the rest of her life. So, that's the biggest thing. We can also talk about non-barring spouses. We've added protections to spouses. Say if you had a 72-year-old and his 45year-old trophy wife, then the trophy wife, as long as she lives there, she's protected. So, if the 72 goes poof in the night, then the 45-year-old's going to be okay. Again, as she as long as she continues to live in the house and is a resp a responsible human being and pays the property charges. Those are the two main changes in the reverses. But I will say that from the dawn of at least from the dawn of me doing these in 2008, I'm proud of I think every single reverse mortgage that I've done because they back then and now it's just money. It's just a tool. So, I don't want to be too dramatic, but I will be dramatic for a second because it absolutely changes lives, Bill. It

19:58 Just the money itself and not having to make the payments on it. People's retirement, their whole trajectory changes. And then their health changes because, you know, if you're if you're stressed out, you're not just stressed out. You're not sleeping well. It's bad for your heart. It's bad for your blood pressure. I'm not a doctor. I sure don't play one on TV or anything, but I know that when you can go to bed and have a full night's sleep and you can wake up and you don't have that weight on your shoulders, how am I going to pay these bills? Where's this money going to come from? What if the refrigerator breaks next month? If you can kind of like [clears throat] let that lift, it's awesome, man.

20:38 Such a good feeling. Yeah. Yeah. So you're right. I think the program I mean on one hand the safeguards I think got rid of a lot of the flim flam

20:49 Right because it used to be people do reverse mortgages pull a chunk out buy an annuity get a commission on the annuity get commission on reverse mortgage customer couldn't afford the house foreclosing sell the house it just seemed like it was just it was like putting the customer on a rack versus I think the safeguards the product itself is similar though again toned down a little bit but I think you're right at the end of the day it is the same yet I don't think the public understands the power of the potential. Again, it's not for everybody. It's not right for every circumstance, but it seems to me every circumstance should evaluate is this an appropriate tool or not. And I don't see that people are able to do that. They just dismiss it. So, I know for me, I' I have this podcast to try to get word out about the reverse mortgage. To try to highlight great originators like you to say, "Yeah, maybe if you just call 800 have a number, you're going to get, you know, you know, sold whatever they want to sell. Let's talk to professional." Talk a little bit about what your role is when a customer calls you and says, "Hey, I don't really know about this thing, but my friend, my professional said I should consider it." What's the process look like from the initial phone call?

22:03 Yeah, I think the initial, this is a great question, by the way. And every I guess everybody's role is different. Certainly, if you call those 1-800 numbers, you're going to be fed into doing an application as fast as possible. And I know that because I used to run one of those call centers. My first job in 2008 doing these reverses led me to running the branch. And it was a good experience because I learned a lot. I got to do a reverse mortgage for Robert Wagner, one of his producers, and a couple old BC movie stars. We were all connected to him which is pretty neat.

22:35 But there was so I when you end up running the office there's so much concentration on metrics and get the application in and get the deal done and end of the month and all this other nonsense that has nothing absolutely nothing to do with the senior situation. So for me every single call I get I just I just ask hey what do you need? Forget the terminology of reverse mortgage and they might not need a I've had people call me for a reverse mortgage and generally it's for their parents and then we actually just closed one in Pennsylvania last week or the week before where they were looking for a reverse initially but then they decided the son and the mom together and the son wasn't didn't have any nefarious tendencies at all he was just looking out for her for her decided that a regular mortgage worked better. Great. Okay, I'll help you. So, I don't, again, going from the very beginning, I don't know what they need until they kind of open up their open up their brain and tell me everything that they're thinking. But really, it's just, hey, what's going on? What do you need? What do you need money to do to help you? And I think that's the most powerful question that we can ask because really if you open if you hear that question and you say, "Okay, Jason, here's what's going on." I'm sure it's the same thing with your listing appointments, right? Like why am I out here? What do you need? Not just sell my house, but why do you need to sell the house? Like what do you what do you need out of this? How's your life going to be different? How's your life what's going on with your life right now? And then they open up and then I'm in the back.

24:20 I'm taking notes. In the back of my mind, I'm thinking like, okay, well, maybe we should do this sort of reverse. Or honestly, this doesn't make you just have too many expenses all over. The reverse won't do it. You might not have enough equity. Maybe it's time to sell, unfortunately. So, the rest of the process is the same across the board. Senior gets counseledled, they speak with a HUD FHA counselor. They just want to make sure that myself or whoever is helping them told the truth. They'll complete an application. They'll get an appraisal done which gives us the value. We'll underwrite it. And generally I close these things in under a month. But the most important thing that gets us to the right program is just asking the right questions and listening.

25:04 Let's step back a little bit from the consumer business side of it to the entrepreneurial side of it. You run your business in a format as an entrepreneur. You your company I think is keyhome lending. That's you're the proprietor. You're the president, but I'm not sure what the title is.

25:21 Talk about owner, president, Elfe. Elfeito, you might say. So talk about why that format works for you and your customers versus some of the other formats of working for bigger companies.

25:34 I have flexibility to do whatever's smart. So if and again from personal experience working for running a call center from a big corporation with multiple branches that was overseen by one of the market makers up in New Jersey. Do you think if you need to make a change, if you find out that there's a process that's smarter, can we just change it? What if you need what if you need to help somebody out with the process or with pricing because they just need to get over the they need to get over the hump.

26:10 How long does that take? How many vice presidents and team leads and all that other nonsense do you need to go through? For me, I just I try to make smart decisions. Now, I'm not saying that all my decisions are always smart. Definitely I'm learning through this. I've owned Key Home Lending for four I think we started it Yeah. A little almost five years now. So, there's a when you're ready to fly by the seat of your pants, sometimes you do what you think is right and you screw it up. But I can move quick and I'll always pick I'll always pick that and just like, hey, if I if I don't make the right decision, well, at least I meant to and I tried to do the best I could by my client and we'll learn from it.

26:55 Talk a bit about your business development. I know you're active on social media. I see posts of you and your family. Your wife and daughters and having fun in the Florida coast. Talk a bit about social media, how you use that to be you know, effective in business development.

27:10 Yeah, so I've got a YouTube channel. I put out not I don't put out as many videos as I should on it. But that I think that's more of needing to surround myself with a little bit little bit more of a foundation. As a business owner, you have to take you have to stop doing everything yourself. One thing I try to do I try to teach my kids, I don't think it's a great lesson, but I think about it myself is I want to be perfect in everything I do all the time. And obviously you can't, you're flawed. But processing the files, I normally have my hands in about 60 to 80% of the dayby-day processing. And I think that's important with reverses because they do get they get hairy a lot of times. You get title issues, you get appraisal issues, you got income issues. So you really have to have a very good kind of good experience. And then al also you have to have account executives who are good as well. I'm digressing though. As far as social media, yeah, YouTube, I put up posts in Facebook. I advertise in local mom's groups. It's just that sort of stuff. I'm involved in local networking groups. I'm involved in a couple of Facebook groups for business owners. Does it always end up in a reverse mortgage? No.

28:29 But it could end up in another sort of loan that can help somebody. And again, I'm pro as somebody who's grown up doing reverses. I think I'm as maybe as much of an expert as anyone else. Maybe not, but I'm up there. I would rather have the opportunity to help everybody in other situations. I never want to pigeon hole somebody into a reverse where it makes sense to do something else or pigeon hole a 70-year-old into a forward mortgage because I don't have the experience to do a reverse. I'd rather do the right thing all the time and that means having the programs and products to be able to do it. You know, in my career, I don't think we've ever had a more volatile time than the last year and what looks like it's going to be more volatile next year between political changes and political fights and international tensions and AI you know disrupting so many different businesses threatening to disrupt so many more.

29:22 So you know as an entrepreneur obviously you have to make decisions and plan for the future plan you know where you keep your capital save money invest money. What do you see for the next year and what are some of the steps you're taking to be different next year than this past year?

29:36 I think it's just working smarter for me. I think again, no crystal ball. None of us has a crystal ball. I have a crystal ball. It's actually right there if you look at it.

29:46 Never mind. I do have a crystal ball. It doesn't work, but I have one. [laughter] The magic eightball is murky. Ask again. I believe that rate mortgage rates while they've dropped a little bit in 2025. I think they're going to continue a trend. I believe I don't want to get too political or anything and I'm just a guy who helps people with money. I'm not a rateologist or anything, but I believe that the head honchos at the top of the government want to bring the 10-year Treasury bond down. I think that's for a couple reasons. One of they say for mortgages because it sounds good and I think it's the right thing to do. It's going to make our world a lot easier. It's going to make our clients worlds easier having lower rates. I think that's going to happen. I don't think that's their main objective in Washington. I think there's other stuff that other reasons why they want to bring it down. But if they do accomplish that, we should see well we not we should mortgage rates are connected directly to that 10-year especially reverse mortgage rates. Yeah.

30:49 So when we see it go down with a reverse mortgage, you qualify for more money. When we see rates increase, vice versa, you qualify for less money. So I my magic crystal ball is a little bit murky, but if you if you said you have to bet, you have to pick one. I'm thinking, Bill, that by the end of the year we're going to have rates drop, which means we're going to have more business just because we can help more people. The people the folks who got reverses back I'll tell you when in September through November 2023 they had the highest 10 year that was out there recently so those folks are going to want to refinance more because they just didn't get enough money back then maybe they had to do it then it's fine you do the best thing that you can but now you have the opportunity to redo it so I think business is going to grow I think we're going to be able to help more people and the average person that we're going to help we're going to be able to help them help them better. It's not great English, but they're going to get more money or a bigger reverse mortgage line of credit. They're going to do better now when the rate when the rates drop. And if they go in the other direction, so be it. I can't control that. You can just control how you react to and how you just try to help everybody the best you can.

32:03 Well, I think I'm on the same page. It's interesting to get your perspective. So, I appreciate that you agree with me, which means you're probably right. So, I appreciate the of course your prediction. Jason Ike Miller is one of the top, reverse mortgage specialists in the country. He's been on the program, previously as well. If you want more, you go to reverse quotes.com, reverse quotes.com, and there you get a picture of him. You have a YouTube if you want to see the detail, phone number on top, and you [snorts] can call him there at that number, [phone number]. Jason, thank you so much for your time today, explaining to us the details of reverse mortgages and kind of a professional's insight into that. I really appreciate your time today.

32:39 Yeah, this is awesome, Bill. Thanks. Thanks for having me on. Thanks for calling, Bill. Bill just called me the middle of last week. He said, "Hey, man. I haven't had you on this on this podcast yet." And can you do you want to? I'm like, "Absolutely. When's the first time I can?" So, just punched in the punched in the link. So, man, I appreciate you so much having me. Just happy holidays and happy New Year's to you, my friend.

33:01 Thanks so much. Appreciate you as well. Thank you. [clears throat] Actually, he's the person who inspired this podcast a year and a half ago. So, here we are. Hey, this is Bill Gross. This is Reverse Mortgage Podcast. Every week we get a new originator, sometimes managers or vendors to help us be better serving our clients. Sorry about that. A little bit of a cough today. If I can help you at boss probate on social media