Nevada Probate and Estate Planning, with Robert Tzall

0:01 Welcome to Probate Weekly. I'm Bill Gross, your host. Do this every week and talk to leaders in the business. whether it be attorneys, professionals, vendors, real estate agents. Really excited to have today somebody who I've known before I got into probate business. he was a friend in fact before he even became a friend. I knew his wife and we've watched them grow up together. so I would say personal friends as well as since he's been in the practice of law. We've touched base from time to time about the business. and he's located in Nevada. so it gives a little different perspective on the business. Robert Tzall, Esquire. Robert, thank you so much for joining us today.

0:34 Thanks so much for having me, Bill. I really appreciate it. It's always fun and this is my business talking to friends about probate, estate planning, helping families. And just to clarify the legality part or the title property, Astuno & Associates is the firm that you're with and you're partner with the firm. and so you but your practice is I think based kind of broad-based what I call probate meaning you do probate as well as avoiding probate or estate planning. You do guardianships and conservatorships and such as well

1:02 Everything that has to deal with those up this way those as we get older as we start thinking about our legacy everything that deals with that whether it be something really happy where we're creating a foundation or something on the other end of the spectrum where it comes time for someone to pursue a guardianship or something like that. So, let's start off with not just the unhappy part, somebody passing, but the part where they messed up and didn't have a plan. We call that probate. and you know, one of the misconceptions in California is if you have a will, you avoid probate. The truth is in California, you take your will to probate and it's part of the process. Even without it, there's the process is almost identical other than arguing over the will. In Nevada, does a will avoid probate or does a will get probated in Nevada?

1:44 Same thing. It gets pro it gets probated. So, if someone's looking to avoid probate, they need to have more of a robust estate planning. estate plan. And really, an estate plan is an act of love. probate we were we were talking about for a few minutes before we before we started recording. It's tedious. It's a lot of paperwork. Some people always want to ask what's the fastest we can do it, what's the deadline, and that's always hard because there's so many hands in that in that bucket. So, if you So, if you really truly love the people that you want to leave stuff to, there are different vehicles than a will. and also because they don't have to be probated, there's also less expense to the estate.

2:21 So let's talk about let's start off with the before picture, the probate. If you don't plan what life looks like. So when I run a list in California, the average probate closing is over two years. Even though theoretically it could be done in 9 months, 10 months. I mean theoretically everything was done as quick as possible, but the average is longer than that. based on actual data, what's the average really look like in Nevada? Because there's there's what it should be, but you know, we have human beings doing the paperwork and we have courts and systems and vacations. What's an average time period from the beginning of the opening of a probate until the final disbursement of the funds to the heirs?

2:57 In my experience, it's at least 18 months. I mean, unless it's a very small estate or there's something or there's something unique like you were just saying, there's paperwork there. Well, there's deadlines. I'm sure in California it's something like 60 days you have to you have to let the creditors know 90 days to do a publishing and whatnot. But, you know, like you said, we're at the mercy of a lot of different people, right?

3:16 So, in my experience, you know, I you know, 18 months the soonest that I've got one for a large estate. I don't know if California has like a small estate plan, small estate and larger estate, but is is is nine months. And that was like that was that was busting that was busting everybody to get that done. So, while we're there, what's what's the distinction in Nevada? Now, in California, we have a new law just came out for decedents April 1st, 2025 or later only where primary residents and there's some other conditions and I have a whole podcast episode coming up on it up to $700,000. There's a streamlined limited process still going to take a few months, but it's limited. So, in so we have a under 168k, which is more for a bank account. We have a 750 for that particular case scenario of single family and then we have everything else gets piled into probate. What are the distinctions if any in Nevada?

4:08 So we have three levels. we have summary sum summary probate for if it's if it's below if it's below $100,000. If it's between $100,000 and three $300,000, it's still a full probate, but the our statute provides for shorter deadlines. and then once it anything over $300,000, whatever type of asset the estate has, then it has to do a full probate.

4:32 Got it. So, one of the things people also don't understand about probate is while everything might look smooth and easy when you start, my experience is the longer it goes, if you have multiple heirs, it's kind of like having food in refrigerator. Something goes bad at some point and it just takes one. And I think people are shocked to find out that one difficult heir, one difficult sibling, one difficult cousin can just throw sand in the gears here in California, it can go from being a year or two process to being forever and very expensive. Is that similar in Nevada? What's that process look like when you have one person maybe objecting and they may be reasonable? They may have no documentable grounds, but they just want to slow things down or stop things. What's that look like in Nevada? If somebody filed something into a probate saying even if it was totally baseless, I have a claim, whether it be a creditor claim or an heir, it's pushing things back at least three or four months. Whatever that deadline was, we could basically say the next three or four months are cooked on resolving this issue between whatever it between the court and between dealing trying to deal with the people in negotiation, you're talking three or four three or four months pushing things back minimum. And then you've got to have the attorney has to respond. Meaning theoretically some heir files a objection to the petition and maybe their own petition. At least that's what it looks like in California. And then now you've got to have your attorney file an objection to their petition and a defense of your petition. Typically not included in the standard attorney's fees. So now you're starting to pay more money. There's filing fees and things like that. So that's where I find probate costs can very quickly double or triple. Of course, it goes to a hearing and a trial. Who knows what the costs are going to be?

6:12 Exactly. It's like any litigation say people want to say how much litigation I don't know. It depends how far we have to go down that rabbit hole. additionally also what I find with when people if you my words come out of the woodwork. It's not it's sometimes not just the money. It's some other issue that's you know you're a real estate professional. I'm an attorney. We have we have our skill sets but these problems existed long before probate. And those issues slip in as well. I have a I had a case the case in last year where my client didn't even wasn't even really interested in the money. She filed the objection because she was estranged from her mother and the executive refused to give her any portion of her mother's remains and that became the big fight.

6:56 Wow. Portion of the remains. Right. So, I know people have different thoughts about this, but she was, you know, when we were talking, she was like, "I'll even take a half of it." How do you measure half of a of cremated remains? I don't know. Interestingly enough, I'm not sure how it is in California, but here in Nevada, courts do not want to hear about fights regarding remains. They will not disturb them. Basically, the person took responsibility for them at death barring either your cooperation between the parties or some or some other situation, they keep them even if they're not necessarily the closest heir. And I think if anybody's listening to this, whether you're, you know, a individual who has property, has a family and is horrified by the prospects or if you're like I am a real estate professional or other professional, we want our customers to avoid this. And so part of the reason we're going in a little deep on the probate side is that's the if the cows get out of the barn, what life looks like. But we want to build a good barn that doesn't let the cows out. We call that estate planning. So let's talk about estate planning. You mentioned that as an act of love. So, one of the challenges is just, you know, not for you, but for me, I'm not in the business of estate planning, but I advocate all the time to my customers and to prospects and to team members, is getting people to take action because it's not urgent, obviously. so what do you see that the difference between people actually finally get to doing something on an estate plan before need or is it is it now mom is getting really ill and that's what they're racing for? Do you see people who just who plan ahead or is it almost exclusively people who are racing some sort of impending disaster in their mind? So in my practice I see it mostly people planning ahead whether planning ahead might be 50 years ahead might be 10 years ahead but rarely do we get a call from you know do I get a call saying you know hey this you know this passing is eminent we must do this now typically because there's so many as a practical issue there's so many other things going on you know with the person's health and welfare that they're not that they don't even get a chance to discuss them even if they're important issues. So, you know, it what it what it what it what it comes down to really is it's a difficult time when people pass

9:00 And you want to create as little friction as possible and the more friction you the more friction you create the worse your experience is going to be. another area of my practice just speak real quickly is in is in surrogacy and assisted reproduction. And I my saying there in that field is you want to have when someone asks how your journey was. You want to say it was great. You don't want to say it was great but and you don't want, you know, at the end of the day we're talking about human beings. We're talking about lives. We're talking about emotions. We're talking about souls. And it you don't want the conversation to be with somebody when they find out a relative pass. And the conversation goes in not talking about how that relative was important to you, not how they made an impact, not how they made an impact on the community or the world, but talk about the time, trouble, and treasure that's involved in the probate and sorting everything out. So you also handle trust litigation which I think most commonly is an estate plan but somehow you know again another misconception is you avoid litigation if you have an estate plan. Well, you might minimize the chances or you might strengthen your chances of winning, but the court, at least in California, I believe it's true to Nevada, too, is filled with litigation related to estate plans being litigated one way or other.

10:20 So, what are the most common areas that you see litigation involving estate plan? Somebody took the time to fill out the estate plan. what happened that they weren't able to avoid litigation? the two are two there the following are the two biggest issues. One when property is not properly transferred into the trust.

10:41 Well, let's stop right there for a second. I'll come back to the other one because that one obviously I'm a real estate agent. That's when we deal with so not properly transfer trust. Now, in California, we have kind of like a kind of like a get out of jail free card, but it's not free, called a Heggstad petition where the court will consider transferring a property back in the trust. That that was clearly the intention. And so, California should be aware of that. We know that you can advise customers to ask about that. The problem is it's as expensive as probate and may even take longer than a probate to do. So, on one hand, it's a solution. On other hand, it's very expensive, very slow. Now, in Nevada, do you have such a reversal process or if you forget to transfer it, are you just out of luck? Like in most states, I know you're just pretty much out of luck. You're out of luck. You're out of luck. you know, absent something where we can someone could produce a writing, which is so, you know, which would which would take the form of an amendment or something like that, but really you're you're out of luck. and most people they think you know you've seen a lot of trust documents they think in that schedule A or exhibit one if you listed it there that's enough rarely it is

11:45 There's nothing like being with a customer who pulls out the trust book they're very proud of the book they get and they pull out the list it has a [unclear] has a property on there and they pull out the next page is almost always the deed into the trust that the attorney gave to them to get notarized and recorded and they never did and it's like well now we have a problem. Now again California there's there's a potential solution. It's not guaranteed and it is expensive and in Nevada you probably don't have a solution at that point. And so anybody listening here I think it's really important to work with the attorney to I think help follow through and get the customer what they wanted which is get the property in the trust or it's called funding the trust. So some attorneys are a little standoffish with real estate agents because they see us as just always asking for business. I would take the position that I want to follow up with the customer at least make sure the property got transferred. I can check public records. I don't need to bother the attorney to find out. The opposite. I can find out it's recorded and send a copy to my customer and copy the attorney so you know that's done. So when you do estate plans, do you follow up with the customers they get these things done or do realtors who are free business followup? What's the process look like to make sure that they bought the safe that they put the things in the safe, close the door and spin the lock? So one we have extensive depending on the client some clients want to come in and execute everything here on one day and we're happy to provide that service. A lot of folks

13:10 Don't want to come in and we provide we provide extensive directions and then we follow up 60 six to eight weeks later. We do have a we do have an estate management plan that some of our that some of our clients use. It's a there's annual fee and that's a little more hands-on if they have questions and that allows us to be a little you know check in a little more and little bit more proactive. I like that personally, you know, I always look at my father was an attorney and his he didn't do estates and wills, but his partner did and they were old, obviously older than me and I'm old. and they had a like a vault in their law office where they in those days you put the original will the attorney held it and that was a common practice until at some point it became common practice not to do that. And I don't not sure exactly why. And then I think now it seems like half are in and half are out where half will hold it and charge a fee and the others say no we anything to do with it we'll put online and give you a copy of it but we don't really have the original or verify that we have the original. How do you handle or advise the handling of the original documents as far as trusts?

14:13 So I actually think the originals should be with the client attorneys. You know attorneys are you know we're awesome but we're just human beings. We die. We go out of business. We go on crazy we go on crazy trips and if you know if you leave well we'll get to the original part in a second but by leaving the attorney there does there does come some risk I think it's not I think it's perhaps advisable for attorney to have a copy but I don't see it as necessary original reason for the original I think the reason attorneys were doing it in the past was estate planning was a lot less there was a lot less trust and a lot more probate so the attorney that did the that drafted the will ultimately you know you know regularly did the probate so and I think that's not as so much the case anymore. additionally, you know, by, you know, if they have the original and we have a copy, say, why do you need a copy? One, so we can look at it and say, "Hey, you signed it. You executed it correctly or not." But also, if something happens and the and I'm sure California has something has something similar. If the original is lost, a reproduction can be can be entered as long as there as long as there's enough evidence that it was actually executed by the decedent.

15:16 Otherwise, you have nothing. And I've had numerous cases where customers come in with a property in a trust and the kids can't find the trust or the person the trustee can't find a copy of their trust and so and they and the attorney's no longer around or they use a service and they can't access. Sometimes they do and there's different things but too often they can't find a copy of the trust. Now what have you accomplished? Right. That's that's a whole another challenge that gets to be illegal. So you

15:44 And then sorry I just want to go back to your point that that goes to my second point about like what you know what do we see litigation coming up in it's not telling people your wishes and yes it's an it's only legally binding if it's on paper but some when people are surprised to find out what that paper says they sometimes go to incredible lengths and so one of the things like you were mentioning you know originals even you know you know it might you might not want to pipe the original to the successor trustee but at least provide a copy to them let them know they're going to on that's on a happy end. On a on a less happy end, you know, I've had I've had to have many estate planning cases where it's a blended family and they want, you know, there's together there's six eight children and for whatever reason some of those children didn't make the cut, you know, beneficiary was

16:28 That is never pleasant. I'm not seeing your chair on those, but on the real estate side of that, man, they just want to kill each other. Some of them just want to kill the fact that that that kid got 10 bucks. Like they would they would die if they could get that money out of the person's hand. It's It's amazing the, you know, and I'm blessed not to have come from that circumstance and so I can't really imagine. No, I'm sure there's some legitimate pain involved in all that. I had one where the husband had an illegitimate child and didn't tell his wife or daughter until later in life. You can imagine their feelings about this daughter. And he had a trust he didn't execute. And so in essence, in California, it's as though he died intestate

17:10 Intestate. And so, I guess by law, she was the daughter of the first wife who died. And so, there's a the second wife is alive. And I believe the way it worked out was the this daughter who was illegitimate or whatever out of the out of the out of wedlock got like half of the, you know, inheritance. And of course, the daughter, you know, when she found out about her halfsister, you can imagine she'd feel cheated and betrayed, whatever all those emotions are. But imagine that person getting half of maybe a million dollar state. I mean, it's just brutal the legal process there. So, and again, if that's what you want, I think you're entitled to do that and put in writing. And it might be he didn't have the courage to tell his wife that was his intention. Who you don't know. You just don't know how it all works out. But I think your point is right to communicate as best you can. Otherwise, you're really leaving a mess for somebody else to clean up. I interviewed attorney last week and I've been as business for a while. I feel like I'm an expert in these subjects. I was shocked to learn something that I didn't know which was maybe this is a California law that when a property is in a trust the trustee when the decedent passes and it goes from being revocable to irrevocable that the trustee is obligated to notify all the beneficiaries of the trust as well as all the heirs at law meaning if the decedent had written out of the distribution say a son that the trustee would be obligated to let that son know within 60 days that they had gone revocable they had become irrevocable and that the all of those heirs and heirs at law and beneficiaries have the right to request a copy of the trust and I think they have to get within 120 days so they can actually see the trust and see the actual terms because as a real estate agent I often get the phone call hey I think they're leaving me out they're not telling me anything I don't have any paperwork and then I'll say well you should talk to attorney well that's a tough phone call to make is you know what's it going to cost and you know people don't necessarily know upfront.

19:10 So a couple questions if I can first if you can clarify in Nevada in general and I understand not giving little advice but just the general principle when there's a trust and the decedent passes and that therefore that trust that was revocable most commonly becomes irrevocable is is the same rules as a trustee obligated to give notice to heirs and beneficiaries of the trust. No, only beneficiaries. Only beneficiaries.

19:33 So, for example, if there was a son who would be an heir at law, but he was written out of the trust, the trustee would not be obligated to notify him of a of that of the correct trust, and he would not be obligated to know a copy of it.

19:46 Correct. He would have he would have to start litigation in order to get the copy of that trust in discovery. And I'm sure as sure as you're aware of anytime I know when I draft, I have no I have no contest clauses. So, if they were to get anything, you know, there's if they were to get anything and they and they and they and they and they didn't know or did they don't I'll put it this way. They're supposed to get something and then they contest it because they thought they were going to get more. There's always the chance of them losing everything.

20:11 So then does the heir in that case just wait until everything's distributed. By then it's too late to sue. What's or if they if they sue right away, they don't know they're being written out. So, how does that even work out when the heir suspects he's being written out but doesn't want to lose out?

20:27 So, a couple things. One, you one, you can it depends how close you are. Meaning, if it's something that you know, obviously, if an attorney called me and my client gave me gave me permission, I wouldn't have a problem sharing the trust document with a nonparty. even though it's a private document obviously like I said with the client's permission but you know beyond that if you're trying to get answers and within I'd say 90 days of somebody's death you're not liking the answers that you're getting litigation is your litigation is really your only move here in Nevada because otherwise like you said how are you going to find out you're you're not legally entitled to notice

21:04 So on what basis then you file litigation because you might not have any you don't have any basis to know you're being written out and that's the problem because so you have to allege you have to allege that you have to allege two things. One, either that there is a trust and that you're and that you're not and that you're purposely being kept out of it either by the successor beneficiary or by the attorney. or you have to say or you have or you have to say that you know on your on your knowledge information that the there's something wrong with the trust. It was it was terminated. It wasn't executed properly. You know, for example, you know, little different of the scenario you're talking about is people can have two copies. I was, you know, I'm in it. And then several years later, I'm not in it. well, I'm not a California attorney. My firm's my firm has offices in California. And a case that went on was we firm represented a client where the everything was going to go 50/50 to the kids. He had a stroke. the kids didn't want to take care of him. His maid of 20 years took care of him. He she gave him she gave her I'm sorry. He gave her everything. So, in that case, classic. In that case, those kids those folks had reason to believe, you know, they didn't, you know, their father didn't tell them during their lifetime.

22:22 Certainly, we didn't have a duty while we were drafting to tell them. But, you know, that fell that fell that fell on, you know, that fell on the client of on our attorneys in California that fell on their shoulders to tell those kids that they were out. you really, but going back to Nevada, really, you have to have some sort of, and I talk to folks at least once a week like this, you have to have some sort of good faith reason to believe to start fighting. Otherwise, it's probably going to result in you spending a lot of money and not getting any money.

22:49 And so, the reason why you might be willing to disclose the trust is because both why make them litigate if you're going to show them they're written out, but if you have the no contest clause, you're putting that up for them to see as well. and so you kind of are saying to them up front it's not worth your time to litigate because you're not gonna get anything and you're gonna if you were going to get anything you would lose it as a result as well

23:10 And they're gonna you know everyone you know this is not something that people can do themselves they're going to have to use an attorney prop probably properly if I give them the if I give them the trust and I'm confident that everything's fine they're going to take that to an attorney to try to hire and that attorney is going to look at and say happy to help you but no promises.

23:28 Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And so that's why I think these things it's so critical. The one common denominator avoiding problems in everything in business I think is preparation or two preparation and communication. Preparing the documents and then communicating it. And I think that you know it's easy to say for a decedent to tell you know kids you're written out you're half written out I'm giving my caregiver. Those are tough conversations. People don't have those conversations when they're alive let alone from their deathbed. But obviously not having those conversations I think make it difficult as well. So, and I think also, to your point about the story with the kids and the caregiver, it is interesting to me how entitled heirs feel when they're not around their family, you know, family member for years, right? I mean, yeah, easy for me to say. It's tough to be around a sick, you know, but we've done that. Me and my wife have been through four unfortunate, long, drawn out processes. not because we're inherited some incredible sum of money as it turns out but because that's what we did for our family members and I think sometimes you know children they take out their guilt what they feel emotionally on through litigation and that's why I think that even if you do everything properly having the documents done right and the communication is so important because you can't avoid being sued if somebody feels cheated they're going to and they have the money they're going to hire an attorney they're going to come after you there's no way around that I don't think

24:53 And Yeah, not only in estate planning but in some of the other areas of law people will speak to me and they say we don't have a current controversy but I don't I want to make sure there's not a controversy. What can I do? Is there some magic pill? Is there something I can do?

25:07 There's no magic pill. It's really just it's like you said it's it's preparation. It's doing everything right because you know I can't like you said people can't stop I no one can stop anyone from starting a lawsuit. The best we can do is stop it as fast as we can. And I think you know a lot of people you know it's you know a lot you know on the other side when I'm doing business litigation businesses will you know they'll they'll want to see how do we protect ourselves and I'll say well you know like you're talking about documentation insurance business like so if someone sues you can say hey we weren't an exit we didn't breach we didn't you know you know etc something like that and I think that it's just it's you know especially with something so personal like estate planning I mean I don't know I you know some people don't want to think about the hereafter And as simple as that. Some people don't think they have anything to give. Some people they, you know, they have a lot to give, but they're estranged from everybody. And, you know, that's that's an emotional part as well. They're not, you know, at the end of the day, they're doing it not because not because they're lazy. They're doing it because they're lonely and there's no one sitting there and helping, you know, suggesting that they do this.

26:11 You know, I don't think this is a news flash. You and I are both Jewish. We're both religious Jews. how we met really through our religious community here in Los Angeles. and in the pro process of estate planning, one has the opportunity to document and instruct how they want things done, whether it be who's raising the kids or how they want their, you know, process to be done, you know, physically, burial versus you know, cremation and such. And in our world of religious Jews that we have some fairly strict or specific I should say instructions, I know of an organization called [unclear] that has put together kind of like an addendum that would go to an estate plan. Do you consult with religious Jewish families on estate planning? Is that something that you've developed on your own? Is that organization you use or isai one that you've worked with? So I work with the RCA and so they because back they started producing templates that that go very well with contemporarily drafted estate plans. I think it's it's it's important because a lot of people you know a lot I'll put this way whatever the religious whatever the religious whatever the faith is I think it's really important and going back to wills for a second. We've kind of been trashing wills because of the probate part, but wills are really important because while you can put those wishes in a trust, the real place to put those wishes where they're enforceable is a will.

27:38 So, if you have those wishes about disposition of your remains, they should absolutely be in your will. They should also be in your advanced healthcare directive. you know, a lot of people, I'll I'll talk about that in a second, but what I what I think that any, attorney, whether they're Jewish or not, who's working with religious folks, you know, they owe it to their client to at least be competent enough to talk about these issues so they can suggest alternatives so they can be compliant in whatever, you know, religious tradition that is,

28:12 Right? Yeah. Yeah, and I know in our forms now he mentioned RCA Rabbinical Council of America as another or is probably the leading organization on various related Jewish law issues. but I think that there's a number of issues. One is appointing well if it's not covered in this list of instructions, who's my you know spiritual counselor? In my case being Jewish, who's my rabbi? Right? If you're Catholic, who's your priest? And that way if there's something that's a question then they would be able to make the decisions that's consistent with your religious belief whatever they are whoever that is to not do that advocates that role and I know we went through that with one of my family members where we kind of knew what she wanted but she didn't put in writing and it was something that we're not you know that we I didn't agree with but at the same time those were her wishes and so I went to my rabbi said well that's her wish that's her wish it's not my place to intercede and that's difficult you know those are things that you don't have in writing and try to make those decisions as if that's important to you. Now it may not be important to you know and I think other personal things like caring for pets there's pet trusts and there's you know charities and identifying those charities with your distribution so these are all things that rather than leave it up to somebody to decide now do you do you get involved in those kind of decisions as far as helping people identify charities or you just ask them in the process of the estate plan and they identify them or what's that look like?

29:34 So, some people have an idea, but really, and this is this is kind of the fun part of estate planning. You know, we're talking about all the negatives that happened, but you know, just like the documents themselves are an act of love, these gifts are an act of love, or these bequests aren't quests are an act of love. So you kind of, you know, I it's it's really nice when you can open up somebody's eyes and say, "Hey, whether it be a dollar or $100,000, you know, you can you can give this to an organization or you can give this to a cause that that that's connected to you. So a piece of you can be built into that organization." I think this is going to become a much bigger issue as we see demographically, fewer people getting married, fewer people in relationships. yeah, making a living is always hard, but most people most people pass away with something, whether it be big or small. And if you don't have a if you don't have a spouse or a partner and you don't have children, that doesn't mean that that money is just useless. I mean, that that still can be a great act that that that still can that still can be a huge gift to something or someone or something,

30:37 You know. I know that's really important and you know have a family member passed away who didn't have any other children and we made a [unclear] and said look they didn't make any designations but I think we all want to contribute something why don't we just take it off the top and that way it's in her name and so we actually were able to contribute something that come and endowed her not it was that much money but it was enough that it becomes a recurring gift to an organization that was important to her and I think those are things that we have a chance to create a legacy. That's a good way to put it. So,

31:11 So going sorry going back to one thing you were talking about with wishes u just to give you an idea like in and for religious folks who are Jewish something specifically I put into their to their advanced healthcare directive is no one can take any action that's incongruous with orthodox Jewish tradition and if a person attempts to do that they are the this the successor attorney in fact can take action against to replace them.

31:42 And now that's obviously if they're orthodox and you have people who aren't. And I think again, whatever you are, you can put it you can codify that. And if you don't, you're kind of leaving it open for arguments and disagreements and things like that. Also, who's going to raise kids? You know, one of the things that, you know, we talked about with my daughter who's married and lovely guy in some ways. He's like my son and we have now two grandkids. Well, God forbid this happened to two of them, who's going to raise them? and my, you know, my daughter's blessed to have two sets of grandparents around and as well as my son-in-law has two siblings. Well, they made a decision that I said, I don't really care if it's us or somebody else. I don't care who it is amongst that group, but let's designate somebody. So, there's no argument because somebody has to make those decisions. If they're empowered decisions, then there's no more room for argument. If they're not empowered, then you can do nothing but argue. They should go to this school, they should go to that school, they shouldn't go to school, it's too expensive, right? Those are things that somebody has to make those tough decisions and if you designate them they can make those tough decisions if you don't designate them. So I would imagine one of the real challenges is getting the right trustee in place right people have a sense of who that person should be but often I think their idea who that person is isn't consistent with who probably would be the best trustee. What do you advise clients? You know just an example you know I think in my case I can think of maybe my brother-in-law who's a very successful businessman.

33:03 Well, he'd make great decisions, but he's so busy he'd be the wrong person to handle the details. He would maybe need to hire a professional fiduciary to do the actual work and then he can make those decisions like for them or instruct them or whatever was appropriate. But how do you consult with clients as far as picking the right trustee because I know that makes or breaks the whole deal.

33:24 Absolut 100%. I was just talking this client last week. her she has two children. Her daughter is turning 18 and we've had extensive conversations and one of the child one of the children is special has the other child has special needs and he's much younger. That's a lot of responsibility for someone that literally just turned 18 30 days ago. so I you're 100% right. a couple things. first you know we live in a world you know you know you're married I'm married but we live in a world where we know many divorce people. even if you have primary or sole physical legal custody, if you're the one who passes away, they're going to that child is going to the legal parent. There is very little I'm not sure about California, but at least in Nevada, you know that they are still a legal parent. They still have parental rights and they're going and they're going to that other parent even if it's even if that parent is estranged. Now, if that parent decides to not if that parent not decides not to do something, that's one thing. But a lot of people say, "I hate my ex-husband. I hate my ex-wife. you know, I don't I would never want my kids to be raised. It's kind of it's kind it's kind of hard to get out of. That's one. But two, you know, you mentioned about people. one, it's not only, you know, there's the skills similar to be a to be an executive are similar to those of a trustee, but the but on even on that note, if you name somebody to be the guardian of your children, I always recommend, strongly recommend that the person who's the guardian is not the person who's the trustee of the money left in the trust to benefit them because people are awesome and you know, we all make mistakes and it's very easy for someone to love and care but still, you know, take a few bucks here, did you expect there because her own pot is is is light and then time for come time comes for college and they realize there's $100,000 missing and it just it's there you know there's it's not an indictment on either party. It just makes it a lot cleaner and typically the person as you want to raise your child is not necessarily the person who is the you know the necessarily the Warren Buffett in the family. You know they're two different skill sets. the other thing is you know is is is I find that people they'll name one person also to do the to do anything attorney

35:27 And fact related or advanced healthcare directive related and again a lot of power for one person to have you know again different skill set people ask me again on the attorney on the advanced healthcare side they say I want all my children to make decisions about my about my life or

35:44 You understand exactly yeah no having been down that road no you do But so what I so what I do what I what I do suggest to people though if you have multiple people you know [unclear] the at least on at least on the statute we've adopted here in Nevada you can you can tick off that they're allowed to take anybody's opinion but they don't have to they don't have to necessarily follow it and if you have an extended family or you have people that you want to give informed you know opinions to the attorney in fact you u there is a HIPAA release where at least the parties can get they can't make decisions but they can get information so they can talk you they can talk intelligently with the person making the decisions and perhaps that perhaps that'll be beneficial.

36:24 You know, I've seen I've been in court where I've seen people arguing where somebody to your the first example gave of the guardian also being the administrator of the funds and the guardian took the a child to I think it was a Carlos Jr. or something and got, you know, burger, fries, and coke for both of them. And, you know, one's arguing that they're benefiting personally from the finance because they're paying for fast food while they take their kid out to lunch. It's like really I mean, you know, at some point, but you set yourself up for that to some degree. and those are those are I'm not saying one's right or wrong. I'm saying that these are difficult jobs. You're going to get criticized. You're going to get if there's bad blood, there's going to be arguments. It's going to go to court. It's going to be embarrassing. you want to try to limit that as much as you can by thinking through and working with a professional to avoid these things. So, as we kind of move to kind of the business side now, so talk a little bit. Obviously, I'm a real estate agent and I work with real estate agents around the country, including in Nevada. you know, I there are companies that sell real estate agents a package where they, you know, get cases and they tell them to cold call petitioners, cold call attorneys. I kind of take the opposite approach. I really want to learn the business and try to develop relationships. Talk a little bit if you had a nephew or starting out the business in real estate and wanted to participate in probate real estate or litigation related real estate or in this area. How what would you advise them to build their business? What would you say would be good steps for them to be productive and to learn the business and be good at it? So I think you kind of said it a few minutes ago as you know as you know you our businesses are this way we people know us and people know our work and like our work and or and even if they don't even if they haven't worked with us they know they like our approach to things and I think the most important thing is to really go out and meet as many people as possible.

38:17 I mean, we're doing this virtually through this through this through this podcast, but I think that most people they're just they're waiting for people to call them

38:26 And they're not they're not looking they're not looking to talk to people and in something like probate it's it's you know to talk business law or you know intellectual property to somebody that's really that most people doesn't doesn't affect their lives one bit but I would say be as broad-based as you can especially with financial people especially with especially with real estate people because you I have I have people all the time kind you know they buy their third house and you know that's what makes them you know their third investment property that's what makes them think about doing an estate plan. So I think really it's it's it's like it's like everything surrounding yourselves with a with a with groups of people from different professions and being able and being able to rely on them. I know what I do is I get out I'll I talk I talk to bankers. Bankers are a huge source. I talk to financial adviserss. I think that also I think that you have to maybe if I was a younger man I would be able to do TikToks about this, but I think there's a lot of misinformation about estate planning. at least once a week I get somebody who calls me who makes you know $31,000 a year who wants to start an asset protection trust.

39:33 Yes. and you know that's really something that that that that you know someone who has $10 million in assets they don't have to touch or intergenerational that that that's not for most of us and I think that you know a large part you know people I don't want to say complain but people comment sometimes on the cost of estate planning and I think that's because a big part of it is is the education.

39:56 Yeah. And I think that's what I think that's what you know if someone's looking out there provide the education for free. Yeah. Yeah. And often times realtors say, "Well, I don't know how to do all that." I'd say, "Well, you just listen to a conversation today. It's been so far 40 minutes long. If you learn one thing along the way, one or two minutes of information, take that, maybe research a little bit more and just talk about that." And I would push back a little bit on your argument about not doing TikToks. Now, I don't like TikTok as a format for other reasons. I think it's not the educa. That's why I do YouTube because TikTok is more entertainment. I think YouTube is more about education. But I would say anybody in any business has the opportunity to educate their customers or prospective customers. And anybody, we all have phones. We all just point there, shoot video, upload it to a YouTube account. And so if you're busy enough and you're all right, you may not want to do it. But for the rest of you on the watching this, I would encourage almost anybody get a YouTube channel and start talking about what you can do to help other people. And there'll be people come to you for that help. So that said, Robert, I really appreciate your time today. if you're interested in learning more about Nevada estate planning, Nevada probate work, or you have a particular case with, children guardians and such, Astuno is the firm. Astuno.com is the website. Robert Tzall is a partner there, and his information I have down below. Phone number [phone number shown on screen] and [email address shown on screen] is the email address. Of course, if you don't write this down or don't look in the notes, reach out to me. more glad to make deduction. As I said, Rob's been a personal friend. I don't how long it must been before we moved to Arizona. I mean to Nevada. Must be

41:34 18 years. Has been that long. Wow. Yeah. So, I've known So, we've known him for You look younger, by the way. Thanks. and it's a personal friend. So, I feel very comfortable making that introduction. And, Rob, thank you so much for your time today and educating people. I really appreciate you so much.

41:52 My pleasure, Bill. Thanks so much. And for the rest of you, this is Probate Weekly. We get together every week and talk about how to serve our customers in probate real estate with an attorney or a real estate agent or vendor serving the market. We can continue the conversation at Probate Weekly's Facebook group which is probate weekly. If you want to get reminders, you can go to probateweekly.com. You can sign up if you want to put your email in. You don't have to. You can put your phone number in for text messaging as well as scroll down for the audio formats and or past episodes on YouTube. I'm Bill Gross. We have a new episode every I think we do anymore. I think it's Thursday morning. but feel free to sign up and get those reminders. If I can help, reach out at Bill Gross Probate. And as always, make today your best day ever.