Big Firm Planning, Small Firm Service, with Nicole D. Adkison

0:02 Welcome to Probate Weekly, where we talk about how to get through probate effectively, how to find vendors to help us do it more effectively, and how to avoid probate by proper estate planning and tactics to keep us out of the probate court if possible. We're excited today to have here Nicole Adkison who we've had on our estate planning show is primarily an estate planner and has offices in Santa Clara in Florida and in Nevada pending admission to those two bars as well primarily in California. And we're just talking a little bit before we started about well it's great that you have these multiple states because there must be a lot of crossover and she said to me well actually it's way more important in California than any of the others because probate in California is so much tougher. talk a bit about why California is so important to have your plan in place or it's important these other states but California really has some special traps.

0:52 Well, they do have special traps but it's just a laborious process in this state. It's public. It's time consuming. It's expensive. The fees are calculated on the gross estate, not net. and so in a lot of other states, and like I said, even in New York included, [clears throat] the probate process isn't a terrible onerous misery. So they don't use trust as a as a default like we do here.

1:17 And so just for the for those of us on the on the call who don't follow details, so you're saying is the probate fee, the attorney's charge or fiduciaries charge is based on the gross estate. So if you have a million dollar house, but maybe have a $800,000 loan on it, the property is only worth $200,000, but the cost to probate it is the cost of a million dollars. And so that's just an example of where the state say California, Gio, surprise that California has lots of regulations and charges us a lot of taxes. Who would have thought that would be the case?

1:51 Yeah, [clears throat] it's it's not a whole lot of fun. But yes, and they're statutorily prescribed. So it's not like it's just the attorney saying, "Well, I'm going to charge this." It's in the probate code,

2:00 You know. Not only that, I know that there are cases where people can negotiate down from the maximum, but to be honest, when I talk to probate attorneys about their business, there's nobody who's making excess margins doing probate business. I just I don't see it. that on one hand, it sounds like a lot of money, right? A million dollar probate cost $23,000. Wow, that's a lot of money for just stupid legal paperwork. Well, if that's all you're getting, it is a lot of money. The problem is there's a lot of work involved to get through a probate that and a lot of time and a lot of attention and interruption. So I think that you know it depends. Certainly it's cheaper to have a plan to avoid probate, right? An estate plan can cost a,000 3,000 $5,000 $10,000 to avoid a $23,000 probate bill or worse. So and that's the goal here. So Nicole, what are some of the basic things when you do an estate plan? you obviously are trying to help people avoid going to probate and plan ahead. What is what are the main goals? Obviously, it's not just not going to probate court. What are the main goals that you try to accomplish by putting a plan that is appropriate for the individual person?

3:07 Well, I mean, the number one thing, at least in California, is to avoid probate. And there's a reason for it. it's not just that you don't want to have to go deal with a judge because, you know, judges are human and his coffee didn't taste good that morning. you're probably not going to get the happiest person on the bench. but largely it's just that so a complex will do the same thing that a but a will acts like a road map to a probate. It has to go through the whole process formal notice and requirements and all that. And a trust will allow you to make all those same decisions and keep it out of the public eye. It's so it stays private. It's not nearly as expensive and it's a lot more dynamic. you're allowed to keep property held in trust, which I do mostly across the board now because it's so much better to protect your heirs and beneficiaries and you can provide them with the level of asset protection, but you get to put in a lot more nuance goals and legacy planning and it's got it's a lot more flexibility as it passes down the line. And if you keep it in trust, one of the things that you get to do is avoid continuous estate tax. I mean, at the moment, it's $15 million per person, but Congress can change their money. They probably will. So, it's it's much the same thing except that when you can keep your heirs and beneficiaries out of the probate process, there's a lot less.

4:33 The biggest misconception I find amongst consumers is that a will avoids probate. And I was tell, no, really, the will is kind of like your ticket to get into probate court. Like, you get priority treatment. I have a will. Oh, great. Well, you get in this line. it actually it doesn't make it any faster. It doesn't really I mean, theoretically, you're not fighting over the existence of a will or alternate wills, but if you have a will that agrees on, but even if you had no will and stated that up front and you had the world's greatest will, you're still going to go to probate court, it's going to take about the same time to get through, right?

5:05 Yep. And with a revocable trust, you get a will. And so, that causes a little bit of confusion, too. But what you get instead is a pourover will. Now, what that does for you isn't a small ticket. So, instead of big ticket like the complex one, you get a little ticket. And that's for assets that get missed in the trust titling process. And so, oftentimes that happens in your world in the refinances and so they take it out of trust, they do their refi, they put [snorts] it back in the trust, and it doesn't always go back in that trust. So, we have something in the state of California called a Heggstad. And that's what we use that for a will for. And it's just a summary proceeding that allows the judge to confirm assets to the trust. And again, it causes a lot of confusion.

5:45 Very common. You know, as a real estate agent, anybody's been in the business a while has had the experience of you say to your client, I looked at public records. It looks like you don't hold the property in trust. Oh, no. We have a trust. Are you sure? I look at the public record. Oh, no. And they run back and you're like, I know it's I'm going to get. They walk back with a beautiful binder. And the top of the binder is a letter from the attorney saying, "Oh, don't forget to execute this deed and get it recorded." And you look at them and say, "But you didn't do that." "Oh, well, we never got around to it." "Oh, well, guess what? your property is not in the trust. Your property is it's like a safe box and you put the gold bullion on top of the safe, not in the safe and spin the wheel, right? So, it's close. and it's better, I guess, to have it than not to have it, but it doesn't really safe safely transfer the trust. And then to your point, then as long as you've done that, then theoretically it can it might create evidence of what your intention is. Now, if you didn't execute the trust, that's one level even further removed. If you did the trust and didn't put the property in the trust, that's where the Heggstad petition comes in. And we see these all the time. I think in LA, we call them 850 petitions. And there's several different types of petitions that confirm who owns property, who doesn't. Why is that important? Because you can't sell the property, you can't list the property, you can't refinance it without clear indication of who's in charge. So when you do an estate plan, it seems to me that this has evolved that I know when my father actually was an attorney, he had a partner who did wills and trust in the old days, they mostly wills like stored them in their office. They had like a old a huge wall safe like a bank wall safe and they had these special folders and special boxes and you know that was like in the ' 60s and 70s and 80s way of doing things. now with technology is not as required but I also know that originally attorneys shied away from getting deeds executed and recorded and yet I see now more are offering that as a real estate agent you know I would say well that to me is important to get done I

7:48 Understand there's some legal issues and service issues where do you stand on when you do an estate plan preparing the deed and getting it recorded for the client that

7:56 That's what we do so because of those funding issues and we're we're a little bit more hightouch and so we do all real estate transfers. if it's in the state of California, we'll do it ourselves. Otherwise, we hire a deed service to put together the real estate transfers. We will also work with the client's brokerage houses. If you connect me to your financial advisor, I'll send you a certificate of trust, do all of the so at least we can get the bulk of the transfers done just because then I know that it was done correctly.

8:22 And that's to me, I don't understand. I get there's legal liability. I get we all have businesses and costs and such, but just as a as a consumer and a customer service provider, that's what the customer, I think, expects at the end of the day. They expect to walk out your office and it's done. They don't expect that they have and it's nice they're trying to follow up on it. Did you get it recorded? Did you do this? That's nice, but I don't think that's what the customer expected when they walked in the door.

8:49 Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of them, you know, they come in and they ask specifically, you know, what is it that we have to do? Because most people don't realize because when you do a will, you just write a will, right? Like you have you make all the decisions and all of that nonsense. And you do a will and off you go. And there's no continual there's no additional process in a in the trust world. You have to execute the trust and then you have to fund it. Now, we fund ours, you know, it's a magic wand, so it's $10 [snorts] cash just to make sure that it's an actual valid trust. but then yeah, it's it's we want to make sure that it's doing the thing that you signed up for it to do,

9:23 Right? I think the other thing I saw a statistic I don't think anybody knows the number there was some whistleblower inside that one of the online national services that does estate planning you know the do-it-yourself equivalent of you as if there was that 90% don't execute the documents of the will that being provided to them. Now, I'm sure the systems the companies have these great follow-up systems and they have agents and bots and all kinds of fancy texts and emails to follow up with people and they can document and say, "Well, it wasn't our fault. We sent the guy 20 emails and 20 texts." but at the end of the day, they're not getting that. And I think to me, that's really the opportunity that the real life human being attorney, which you are one, I don't think you're an avatar. I think you're a real person. I think that's what people are paying for is that relationship to say, "I want to get the job done and can you help me, you know, through this process?" Part of the other part is I think the communication because yes customers can go online and answer questions and questionnaires can be better tailor made with AI now very exotic but I imagine that when you meet with your client sometimes there's the question behind the question or the question based on the tone of the answer because you're human that you're you have that talk a bit about how important it is to actually understand your customer's actual emotions and what's really going on rather than just kind of filling out a bunch of forms.

10:42 Right. And so I actually have a funny story about this do-it-yourself plan. And I think that's probably about accurate. There's while we've created this plan, you got to sign the thing. And a lot of times stuff has to be notarized.

10:54 But this lovely old lady, she went on one of these DIY sites and one of my clients lived next door and they got to chatting about estate plans and she said, "Oh yeah, I did mine on, you know, DIY service." And so she's like, "You know what? Just go see my lawyer." Like she doesn't charge to review them. just have her take a look and make sure. Yeah, just make sure. You know, this lady, she lived here locally, had a house that had been purchased for $100,000 and doesn't have a million. And he had a son cat and she wanted to leave $10,000 for the cat and the cat's caretaker, which was not going to be the son. so that the cat was taking care of for his life and she was going to leave the remaining at the time was about $3 million for the son. Perfect, right? Very simple. Cat done. off again except that somewhere in the questionnaire because it's just a document automation. So somewhere in the questionnaire got it backwards. So I'm sitting reading this thing and she's leaving [laughter] $10,000 to her son, $3 million to a cat. Like she's so glad you came in. [laughter]

11:57 But it balanced on the on the website. It balanced perfectly. Yeah. No, that's and it was printed out perfectly. It was nice font and bolding and all the right text and all that stuff and it's easy. you know, they just reprint the documents and you just e sign and next thing you know, you've executed this thing and you're done off the races and yeah, that that's where we have these issues with technology today that it's so easy to make these mistakes and it takes a little extra work, I think, to do it. And I had experience with a DIY that does trust and estates and wills. They rolled out a probate product where they were they were going to administer probates inexpensive do-it-yourself kind of thing, you know, like half price. And of course, I'm trying to help sell the real estate for the customer who I referred to them. And the appointment for administration hearing got delayed three times because they never got the paperwork right. simple basic stuff, notices and notes that were in the file that they didn't address in a timely manner. And so I went to the customer said, "Look, I'm sorry I referred them to you. I'm really embarrassed. Let's pull a plug and move on somebody else." Fine. So I called the company said, "Well, what percentage of your fee you going to charge?" They said, "Well, 100%. We've done all the work." I said, "She's appoint you haven't even appointed her yet. H how can you say that?" Well, you know, we're online and all the work is done up front and we have this fantastic system. I said, "Well, it's not so fantastic." And literally I had to you know just the way it worked out get very confrontational with them to say this isn't how we treat people and I would never refer anybody to them again.

13:27 And I just wonder what they're like on the state planning side because that's how they treat people. We all kind of treat people one way in different contexts. And so I always feel like these online companies are the reason they're online is they don't want to talk to customers. That's why they're on. They want to be behind the scene versus I think a train like you who meet with people is because you enjoy discovering that you don't give $3 million to the cat. Like that's that would make I would have felt pretty good that day if I were you.

13:54 This is seriously one of my favorite stories. Yeah. And she was the sweetest little old lady. She was like 85. She was just absolutely adorable. And she's looking at me and she's looking at my face which doesn't hide anything. And she's like, "Is that okay?" And I was like, well,

14:10 Is that really what you're going to do? [laughter] I know what the intention was. Well, and again, that gets down to the these things are, and I look, I'm guilty of it, too, in my business. I'm sure you have challenges, too, in your business where technologies made certain things so simple. It's very simple to make a mistake, you know, 10 steps deep. And you know, I got into escrow and I had left a form off of a very important form. I'm good enough and I have credibility enough to go back and negotiate and get it done. But, you know, just a reminder to myself, hey, it's great to click a button and get 20 forms signed at once, but you better make sure you're checking it all very carefully because it's not quite that simple. And it's great to have AI review a document and give you the highlights, but you still better review the document because it doesn't catch everything. It catches a lot very quickly, but it also can l to sleep on those details. So talk a little bit about I know that you know I think currently live in Florida as well or travel to Florida regularly with family. You also do business in Nevada and you're pending I think the bar there. Talk about what's the business like differently in as an attorney in California and Nevada and Florida. How do you see the practice of law and working with clients different or do you is it just the laws you're doing with or is the actual business different?

15:32 Well, I mean the actual business is a little bit different just in that Nevada and Florida are much nicer places to do business in. [laughter] So what does that mean? I mean I think I know what that means. I agree with you. I used to live in Florida, but what does that mean from an attorney's point of view?

15:46 California has lots of regulations. There's the franchise tax board. There's just all sorts of different levels of things to deal with as a business owner

15:54 [snorts] that just aren't quite as onerous as they are in Florida and Nevada. It's just it's they're just nicer planning and that's actually why I want to practice there. Nevada is a great place to put a trust because they have a very long rule against perpetuities which is this thing that allows trusts to stay open for a very long time. and they're nicer to businesses. They're you can stand up a business easily. They have domestic asset protection trust. So there's all sorts of good reasons and it's very close to California. I have lots of clients that do cross-border planning. California will get their tentacles in there. So if you want to just get out of California, you got to get out of California altogether. But and Florida does learning. It's it's just it's a good place to do business. And they've again got a long period. And just back to your previous point real quick about the way we go through documentation. Back when your dad was practicing, we didn't have the great gobs of data and paperwork that we have now. And it's so easy to get lost in that like one escrow form just because there's just so much more to deal with now than and technology is incredibly useful for that. And I like the concept of the document automation services because it helps clients who would not otherwise come see me get something in place. It just has gaps. And so, and that's the same thing with doing business in all three of those places. It's just it's there are gaps and if you don't talk to a person who knows where those gaps are, you will fall into that. Probate is the first number one example for that in

17:27 Yeah. Yeah. I think there's there's gaps on the administration side and I think there's also gaps on the estate planning side that you have to be aware of and you only learn that I think by being around it and seeing it happen and seeing a mistake and somebody bringing you that mess and being careful to double check numbers and things like that. That's definitely true. your tagline as a company is, you know, big firm planning, with small firm service. And I assume that means that you're getting high quality planning. I know you deal with some high net worth individuals, that need big planning, with small service. Talk about what the small firm service looks like to you or what you endeavor to do when you meet with your clients. well the first thing that probably sets the small firm standard is that clients come into me I don't charge for consultations. We spend time together. I don't have an adversarial practice. So there's no major conflicts check like in a big law firm. You've got to bounce it off every other attorney's matters. And so there's huge conflict checks. We don't have that here. Can name on one hand the number of things that could possibly be an adversary problem. [snorts] but I spend time with my clients. I build relationships with my clients before I ever even send them an engagement letter or a required deposit of any kind. Just that you're going to the person that you're you're going to work with. And so, I do things a little bit different and I do the deeds and I talk to their financial adviser. I'm actually stepping into the advisory space just to help my clients plan a little bit more comprehensively. So there's it's it's definitely different than a big.

19:07 Now in addition to the fact that it's more personal, you also are we discussed before un lawyerly like and it was funny the last time you and I spoke. I just hung up with one of the most lawyerly lawyers I talked to. I think of the movie my cousin Vinnie and the judge and how he had a standard of dress. You know, you have to look lawyerly. You have to act lawyerly. the way he, you know, way you dress in court and such. and I don't mean as an insult, and of course, this is something that you say about yourself that, you know, you smile, you laugh. I, you know, I have to tell you how many phone calls I've had with attorneys where just one smile, one laugh would just lighten the load for everybody on the call. and that's obviously, you know, you, it's your personality and your style. Talk about how that is central to your practice and how you've brought that in as a tool or as a benefit rather than just, you know, try to cover it up and get along. Well, I liked people. I like meeting with people.

19:58 Imagine that. Do you know like it's and I didn't go to law school with the intention to be a lawyer. I went to law school to do a PhD so I could teach. So, I love educating my clients about all of the nuances and they probably walk out of my office sometimes, but I love spending time with them and that comes through in my personality. And I said that if I was going to practice law, which I didn't intend to do, if I was going to practice law, I wasn't going to be like every other lawyer out there, especially with the kind of law that I practice. Estate planning is personal and it touches your family and your finances and the drama and we know all of the things. And the last I think one of the reasons that people like 52% or some something don't have estate plans. And I think partly it's just because they don't want to go sit in some formal stuffy lawyer's office and feel like they're being judged for not getting to it by now.

20:49 Right. Yeah. And now I will say I'm on a mission to get real estate agents to help our clients get into the door and whoever gets you there or if it gets you in the door to a stuffy attorney and you expect that and like that, good for you. and if you need somebody who really good for you, just get it done. And if you need somebody who's more fun, smiles a lot, call Nicole or one of her equivalents because either way, you got to get the plan done. I it just it just I don't I just don't understand why it's not more common. I just don't think we've and my conclusion is we just don't educate people enough. And that's why I felt the calling personally to jump in and start educating people on the way to do that. Now, obviously, here in California, people often say, "Well, you know, a trust will avoid litigation and will avoid probate court." And I say, "Well, it's designed to, and it probably will." Odds are, I don't know the percentage. You know, 90% 80% never go to court, are never litigated, but there is a solid and growing percentage of estate plans that do get litigated for one reason or another. and in LA County that same process is in probate court. It's the same code and it's the same, you know, somebody's trying to you know pull this the trust into probate court and of course the person administering is trying to keep out. What are the main issues that you see that cause estate plans to end up being litigated and drawn into probate court and either broken or not done properly? We talked about the Heggstad petition. What are there other things that you see that people aren't aware of that cause litigation and cause contest? Not just going in to maybe move a piece of property the way it was intended to, but there's actually conflict in the estate plan was designed to avoid it, but somehow didn't address it.

22:36 Number one, I just did a presentation on this the other day. The number one reason they end up in court is lack of transparency. M the family is not having conversations with their heirs and their beneficiaries as to what their it's a massive communication break and families who communicate stay together. The ones that don't communicate end up in court. And so the number one thing is transparency. And the other one is you're not going to be as transparent. I understand there are some times people don't like conflict. but the other thing is lack of purpose statements. So, if you're gonna not communicate with your family for whatever reason, at least put the purpose in the trust. So, I just finished one up that we're disinheriting one of the kids and it's because they've gotten most of them in advance during their lifetime because mom and dad have taken care of them much more so than they took care of the other people. But, we put that purpose statement in there. Look, we are disinheriting this person for this reason. It's not because we don't love you. It's just we want to make sure over our lifetimes that things are fair for all three of her kids. And the last thing is the control aspect. Who's going to control this trust? And so Susie gets put in charge because Susie lives, you know, down the street and Tom [unclear] lives in Colorado. Well, Susie is a little bit better situated to control things and help mom pay the bills and stuff like that because she's local. But poor Tom is going to feel slighted and unloved if someone doesn't say we're picking Susie because she lives next door.

24:15 And so again, transparency, purpose statements, explaining why you're making these decisions because otherwise it's people feel unloved. They feel slighted.

24:24 And then at the end of the day, it comes out when mom's gone. You know, I had a family member who had a trust and I'm the oldest of my siblings. and my one of the others lives out of the country. the other one doesn't work. house you know mother and housewife and so in some regards you would look at me as the obvious choice and I would say the default choice oldest sibling businessoriented and she didn't pick me because she you know had said to me I know you're really busy with work and so if when it comes time I want you know your sister who's not working to be able to manage things makes sense great and I'm thinking thank god I didn't really want to do it like I know what's involved I'm glad to help my sister out we're on very good terms with both my siblings. But you know, it's so funny that even after the process started, I felt a little left out like why didn't she pick me? Well, I knew why she didn't pick me. I agreed with why she didn't. It still hurt. Like I can only imagine that if you had not discussed that and out of the blue, it would be, "Oh, she didn't like me or she's once again she's treating me unfairly. Once again, she doesn't appreciate me." And all that comes up, that worst stuff all comes up in the process afterwards.

25:35 It does. And you know like my grandparents stuff fell apart fast. My grandmother died suddenly and no one realized that my grandmother was the glue you know and then she was gone and the glue disappeared. And it's those kind of things because oftenimes families just post along because there's somebody who's a strong figure in the family and then that person's gone and everybody's

25:57 Kind of falls apart because they're like oh all of a sudden the blue is not there anymore. Right. so I know that in addition to estate planning and I imagine you help with trust administration that you do probate administration for uncontested probates. Now that's an interesting phrase because it could be uncontested and then become contested. I see that happen unfortunately more often than you'd like. So what are the clues when you get a probate and it comes to you? What are the clues that will be uncontested? And then what are the things that maybe the alligator in the swamp you didn't see once or twice that pop up and become a contested probate?

26:36 Well, then this is kind of where I sway out of the typical lawyer thing. I have a conversation with everybody. I talk to the beneficiaries and I have a conversation and I can tell you've been doing something for a while. You get a little intuitive and I can tell when there's going to be some kind of conflict. even just having a conversation with a proposed executor. I'm like, "Oh, yep. This is going to be a [snorts] problem to have a great referral." Got to have many of them. And so, it's kind of a feel thing, but I also I script those conflict lines pretty closely just because to me it's worth a risk because I can keep families together a little bit better that way because, you know, there's a bunch of lawyers get in the room, nothing's happening with those beneficiaries. The lawyers are going like this.

27:16 It's unbelievable. It just is is it's just so and I think I pride myself on being able to be between the two lawyers and settle things and you know often times well can you really call the other party like yeah I'm a real estate agent I call whoever I want you know I don't have that I can't give them information that's detrimental to my client but if it's helping my client I can call you know I don't have any conflict issues that attorneys have I do whe there's a real estate agent involved on a property but that's that's not the same thing. So the goal here is that you want to deal with those that aren't going to be contested. And I think that's where sometimes upfront maybe getting people to take certain actions can help prevent that. Meaning I've had people call me who are looking for an attorney and I'm trying to figure out who to refer to and there's like another brother in the offing and he's out of state. It's always a dangerous sign to me because the only way he'll look at the property is on Zillow. And so either I'm the greatest realtor in the world or the worst based on what Zillow says the property is worth. has nothing to do what the property actually is, but he knows cuz he went on Zillow what the property is worth. one of the solutions I find that helps when you have a questionable executor/administrator who may not be professional, may not be sharp on details, quick with electronic signatures and details is using a third party as a fiduciary, third party professional in California licensed fiduciary. I'm really big on that. I feel like, yeah, it kind of doubles your expenses. at least the lawyer expenses can be doubled, but I find that if you get stuff done faster, you avoid that conflict that the brother will not object to the sale when you move quickly. But if you give them an extra couple weeks to think about it, they'll always find something to be upset about and that's when they raise their hand and the whole thing starts to fall apart. So talk a bit, is that an area that you get involved with? I know you see refer cases to other attorneys.

29:05 Do you work with fiduciaries on handling administration of trust and or probates? I do. I'm a huge fan of neutral third parties either private professional fiduciary or corporate trustees.

29:17 Yeah. That is one of the main ways like I have clients and the kids are siblings. They're always in trouble and they don't get along and it's like well if you name Tom it's going to be a problem. If you name Susie it's going to be a problem. Let's talk to a fiduciary. And fiduciaries are really good at what they do. we tax as fiduciary for our clients periodically just because of the relationship aspect and it is it's they know what they're doing they're efficient with it. They are expensive but technically your trustee if you name one of your kids is still entitled to reasonable compensation which is generally 1%. So it's it can be the same fee and if you've got two siblings not getting along guess who's taking the trustes

29:54 Well it's much cheaper than going to court 100%. And I think that in the case of real estate in California if you can avoid court confirmation, you're going to get a better execution on the sale of the price by maybe you know 3 4% is a documentation that I have based on my study. and so that's that's less you're going to pay the fiduciary if you can get full authority and then trust that process versus have limited authority and bicker and also by the way have to get bonded. you know the fiduciaries often have their bonded already so maybe they can get full authority without it. So any just created so many opportunities to move faster and more efficient I think it's and I've been working on quite a bit and trying to promote in fact I have a friend who was perfect for it and he was going through a career change he was coming out of the military but he'd been a real estate appraiser and ran a commercial property management company. I said, I think he'd be perfect as a third party in real estate heavy cases. And lo and behold, I got a case, referred to him. He's doing a great job. And then he's referring me business. So, it's worked out really nicely. But I just, you know, I know people buck when I say it's an extra I think I was looking at probate issue for $4,000, like an extra $12,000 in fees. But it's going to get the thing through faster. we're going to save months on the sale. That's interest. You're not paying us. Taxes you're not paying. That's a squat in LA. That's a squatter not getting in your house. That extra two months perhaps. That's a whole Yeah. Welcome Los Angeles. Look, I've gone over time here and you're ali.

31:20 I'm just kidding. You're very generous with your time. Nicole Adkison, big firm planning, small firm service u practicing law in California as well as involved in the law in Florida and Nevada. And watch for details to follow. If you want more information, her website is [unclear]