Lifecycle-Based Approach to Estate Planning and Probate Administration, with Nikki Hashemi

0:02 Welcome to Probate Weekly. I'm Bill Gross, your host, and every week we interview most commonly attorneys to help us in probate and probate administration, estate planning to avoid probate. And, you know, my nature is much more technical and didactic and more task-oriented in my life and I need to always work on my softer skills. I notice that successful attorneys blend the two. They're both good at the law and knowing the procedures, but as well good at the interpersonal and the I would call the softer skills of a business. And really we have an expert on that side of the process, though she covers both. Nikki Hashemi, who's an attorney with RELAW APC. Nikki, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you so much for having me, Bill. This is exciting and I look forward to this conversation. So, I know you have a lot of training and background in coaching and NLP, neurolinguistic programming, and really more the relationship side of the business. Talk about how you came to integrate that into your legal practice. Absolutely. You know, when I was doing my life coaching certification and that was kind of a side gig where I just felt like, you know, it's something that's so important for me to learn the human brain and how we function emotionally from a different perspective. And more than anything it helped myself because I started to realize that just naturally speaking we get stuck in certain decisions that we have to make throughout life. So, when I started to implement that and how to unstuck ourselves as part of my coaching experience and I implemented that in the estate planning administration part of my career, I realized that there's the same commonality exists where we all get stuck when it comes to big decisions and sometimes we don't realize why we're stuck and it's for me it's really important to merge those two and not just have okay, well, this is I'm going to do estate planning. I want to check off the box, but the point is

2:05 How are you going through this process and what exactly are you trying to get out of it? So, I know that in all businesses there's we all have to kind of find the right combination of technical skills and soft people skills and apply them, you know, in appropriate amounts. Attorneys by their nature tend to be, my experience, more task-oriented. They go into it cuz they want to be attorneys and deal with the law. And nobody told them, well, but it's a business first and you better figure out how to work with people or else you're probably going to have a tough time. So, this is a little different. How does this play out in the day-to-day administration of legal practice? Meaning, okay, I get that that's your goal and concept, but if I'm coming to you for an estate plan, I'm coming to you to help me on a probate that I'm administering, what does this look like on a day-to-day process? That's a really good question and you're absolutely right that it's important to meet people where they're at, right? So, for me the first step is yes, I have my tasks, I have my legal knowledge, but I need to meet the human being where they're at. So, when it comes to taking on a client who wants to you know, who wants to do their estate plan, whether it's a brand new estate plan and they have no idea what they're doing or they're already confused about what the process entails or if it's someone who already has an estate plan and we're you know, revising it or refreshing it or whatnot, for me what matters the most is that we first connect at the individual and at the human level. So, in estate planning when I'm having the conversation, it doesn't start with, oh, let's you know, go through this checklist of questions and give me the answers and no, I have a very candid usually 30 to 1 hour or 30 minutes to 1 hour consultation with them where I just want to get to know them and I want them to get to know me. And that usually establishes kind of that that bonding between two human beings to make sure

4:09 That the next step, which is going to be preparing their estate plan, is based on a foundation of trust and a foundation of comfort and the same goals that we're trying to achieve for the client. And on the on the flip side when it comes to administration, if I'm representing someone who you know, you know, they come to me, they're a successor trustee, the you know, grantor has passed away and now they have this trust document, a bunch of assets and they don't know what to do about it. In a every single time when we're sitting in that consultation, the first question that that I ask after the niceties and hellos is, how are you doing? And it's important to catch you know, to catch them in a place where the individual is probably grieving. They're going through a lot of emotional turmoil. They're going through maybe beneficiaries just calling them and constantly, you know, breathing down their neck, when am I getting their money? And a lot of times this is a successor trustee who is sitting in my office maybe just days after someone has passed away or days after a memorial ceremony and they're saying, you know, we just had the memorial and I have no idea what's going on. Right. You know, I mean, I've been through that myself.

5:28 My father passed. He was very well known in our community and I remember I came home from the funeral and it was like a mob scene at our house in our community at that time. It was almost like there was a party afterwards and they were expecting me to entertain. And I had the house, you know, as the older child and I had the nicer house and I had locked myself out of the house. Somehow in the in the hubbub or they had locked the door. We usually would go in the garage and someone must have locked the door when they came in to put food in or something. And I remember thinking, I haven't washed my hands coming home from the funeral and there are people crying on my shoulder about my father. And yet there are things that have to be taken care of from a security point of view. He was an attorney, you know, there's a prac- there's some practical things that you have to deal with right away cuz people depend on you and if you pass, they has to be taken care of. So, in some sense I imagine you almost become like a counselor, a grief counselor in a process like this. Absolutely. And a lot of times, you know, what happens is when they're sitting across from me and they're when I ask them, how are you doing or have you had time to grieve, Mhm. the usually their eyes well up, right? And I'm an empath and my eyes well up and I have no shame saying that out loud because I think it's so important for us to first realize that that emotional aspect has to be taken care of. And yes, sometimes I am maybe a grief counselor just to be able to help them through that stage because ultimately I'm an attorney who is, you know, dedicated to making sure that my client is going to do all the right things, is going to check off all the boxes, that they take their, you know, fiduciary duties seriously and no one is going to come after them later on saying, you know, what happened here or what happened to that. So, it's important to be that grief counselor and as professionals I think we all, even with yourself in what you do, we all wear different hats all the time and it's important to not just isolate ourselves and say I am only an attorney and I'm only going off of

7:30 These checklists. And to step back and for me it also I feel better and I sleep better at night knowing that at least I helped one extra individual where I can just kind of talk them through what they're going through a little bit emotionally so that the rest of the process can be done efficiently and effectively. I mean, having been through, you know, grief, losing both my parents and my in-laws, I can say that now I over time became religious and as religious Jews we have some very structured intense grieving procedures designed to force us to deal with it. And I've seen over time how that allowed me to kind of move forward in a healthier way and I recognize in other people like when my the first one with my father passed, I never really grieved for him. To this day I you know, and you can't go back and do it in a sense. But you're right, I see how it just stops people cold because on one hand they want to take care of something that's important financially or responsibility for their family, but emotionally they're they're stuck. Like if they don't deal with this, if they don't remove this rock from their shoe, they can't really walk properly. And so I think as a attorney this isn't just about you playing grief counselor. This is really about being doing good attorney work is empowering your client to make decisions in the best state of mind.

8:53 Absolutely. And you know, the other difficulty that that arises is it's not always a peaceful death that we're dealing with. Right? So, when I'm sitting across someone who just lost their husband and it was very tragic situation. You know, it's a very different mindset that they're in. It's no longer like, okay, I'm just kind of going to go through the stages of grief. It's it's trauma that now is instilled within them. There is all these you know, there's secrecy now because of what has may have happened to this individual. And that's the other part where and I you know, I'm sorry for your loss and it's it's it's difficult to like you said, to go back and do it. So, it's so important to do it right off the bat and often times I do also, you know, refer my clients. I say, you know, have you reached out to your spiritual leader? Have you do you have a support group? Do you want me to introduce you to a support group? Like how can I help in that regard? Everything else can wait, right? As long as you don't come to me, you know, 8 months after someone has passed away, you're okay as far as time if you're within the first, you know, 30 days or so. Right. Yeah, that's a that's an interesting challenge that people have and at some point you're going to have to deal with this and so the other part is that I imagine not just grief, but interpersonal relationships, right? Just because mom and dad died, all of a sudden siblings don't get along.

10:24 Magical. It'd be nice. You would think. But I was looking at it as whatever fire was brimming between them when dad or mom are alive, their passing and then the money at stake to be discussed is just like throwing a bunch of gasoline on the fire. Now, I know as a practice you don't take on contested probate administration or probate litigation, but I imagine your job is to help people avoid that, right? In probate administration if you have more than one I've seen cases where they don't contest up front. Everybody's great. Everybody's on board and all of a sudden you always cheated me. Next thing you know, they're grabbing their attorneys and kind of like the hockey players they throw the gloves down and start the fight. So, what are some key things you do to try to keep people's emotions in check or directed as opposed to using the probate or estate planning process as a bludgeon for unfinished business? That's a great question and I would say I would want to start off with the planning should be done at you know before death with the administration in mind. So, one of the reasons that I see having administered so many cases is that one of the things that happens is that the individual who created their trust, you know, they created it I don't know years ago and then over time every time something came up like they got upset with a with one of their children or somebody, you know, there was some falling out. They would do an amendment to their trust, right? And then there is I've had cases where there was a trust, there were nine amendments.

11:59 [laughter] I kid you not. Nine amendments. Now, what does that mean? That means that every single time there was something, they would go run to their attorney's office and say I'm going to [unclear]. They would smack an amendment on top of the trust and then move on, right? So, nine amendments later this individual passes away and now they have their successor trustee who is one of five children having to send the original trust and every single amendment to all of her siblings and all the beneficiaries. That's usually when the problems are absolutely, you know, they skyrocket. And that's why always when I'm when I'm doing the estate planning with my clients, I always remind them what is the ultimate goal you're trying to achieve? This is not about you know, one day being upset and one day not being upset. We're human beings. There will always be conflict in our lives, right? We can't just keep running and smacking amendments on our trust. But if your ultimate goal is to leave clarity, is to leave peace of mind, is to leave just a cohesive, you know, family that will continue without you present, then keep that in mind at the time of estate planning and not the fact that, you know, you're you're just planning based on emotion. So, in that regard it's for me what I do is really focus on that on the estate planning side, which is the most important part because without it then, you know, as you know, people end up going through probate probates in order to be able to administer the assets.

13:38 And if whether or not, you know, the individual created their estate plan the way that will lead to peace of mind or not, death and money just tend to create chaos and bring out the worst in a lot of people, unfortunately. And what I try to do is I don't like to, you know, get into family problems or anything like that, but I'm often seen as the peacekeeper. I do represent the one individual who hires me. So, as an attorney, if it's the successor trustee or the personal representative in a probate, they're the ones who hired me. So, my ethical duty to make sure that their legal you know, journey is is taken on properly, that, you know, there's no issues with regards to the steps that they're taking legally speaking. However, I also welcome, you know, if there are beneficiaries, I say let's keep in contact with them. And I tell my client if they're one of the siblings dealing with nine amendments and a bunch of upset, you know, people who are constantly calling them, I say, you know what? Tell them to call me. And when they call me, I'm the third person who can explain to these beneficiaries and say, okay, my client is now at this stage, you know, we're now marshaling the assets and I keep them informed. And again, most of the time that kind of disarms the emotional, you know, anger or frustration cuz usually that's what it is. And usually when people are kind of going head to head, it's because they're frustrated or because they don't know what's going on. So, keeping them in the loop, keeping them informed tends to usually just kind of bring down the intensity of the emotions. I always feel like the extra phone call and the extra email is some extra grease in the gears to keep things a little lubricated and I've never heard of somebody say, you gave me too much information. I've only heard the opposite and you know, you're

15:41 Hiding from me. You're selling the house. I'm the real estate agent in the deal. So, are you selling the house without, you know, my knowing? And so, that's why I'm always careful to try to introduce myself right away to all the heirs because you know, you as attorney have certain limitations of what you can and can't represent to other parties. As a realtor I really don't. I can only advocate what's best for my client, but I can talk to whoever I want to. I can talk to other attorneys, other parties and be that grease in the wheels I think is important in these difficult situations. So, let's talk about kind of the nuts and bolts of the process. You know, I think that one of the as a real estate agent where we get involved, so we see a disproportionate share of these is where the customer or the client has created the world's greatest estate plan and every realtor who's been in business a while has had the experience that you go to the house, you say, well, I noticed that you have the title as Mr. and Mrs. Smith. Oh, no, we have an estate plan. Really? Funny, I looked at the title report ahead of time. You sure? Oh, yeah. And they run back and they come out with this beautiful binders in a box. They open the box, pull the beautiful binder out, they open the binder. The front page is like from the attorney, don't forget to sign and notarize this and record this. Which is like, well, hate to tell you, but you really have a fancy notebook. You don't have an estate plan. of course there's some benefit to that, maybe. So, obviously to me, the job's not done until it's executed and the estate's funded. Talk about your process to make sure your customers and I know it's hard sometimes because they want the plan, they want to review it, they'll get back to you know, you can call them a million times, they're not going to come back sometimes. So, it's not all the attorney's fault, but talk about how your approach to getting the customer to end up executing and funding the estate plan that you've diligently prepared for them.

17:23 Absolutely. So, you know, the analogy I use with my clients when we're doing the planning especially towards the end of the process is I say, you know, you now have this beautiful box and it has a bow on top and it's and it's lovely. You've put all your wishes in there and you've put all the names and all the people and all that stuff. And at the end of the day it's an empty box. You have to put stuff in it in order for this to work. And one of the things we do as part of our process is we make sure that all of the real properties that they have as applicable are transferred to the trust. So, we actually record the deeds and that's part of the process. So, stop for a second cuz that's that I know that you do this, but like for those watching and for real estate agents, this is a big distinction cuz a lot of attorneys don't do this. I would say the majority don't. The ones I interview tend to because they're better. And so, what so, you prepare the deeds for the client and you actually get them to execute the deed, notarize or whatever and then you follow through and get them recorded so you know they're recorded. Exactly. Yeah, so we do the recording and

18:32 Everybody do that? To me it's like especially today, you can do the notary even online now. You couldn't do that before. You can do the recording online. Why is that not like why is the bar not say, if you don't do that, you're disbarred? I don't even see why that's a discussion.

18:45 [laughter] You know, it's we and we have a lot of attorneys who do estate planning themselves and then the deeds are recorded by our firm cuz we're also a real estate firm, right? So, that's where the that holistic approach that we have really works here. The other thing is it's not always just real property, right? So, then there's also individuals who have brokerage accounts and they have other policies and, you know, cash or money sitting in the bank or whatever. That's the part where I always tell them I say, I can't walk into the bank for you and transfer anything over to your trust. But I can tell you exactly how to do it. I can tell you what to tell the person. And what we like to do is we like to really give them those reminders, but at some point, I mean, it's like we can't adult for them. Hopefully the client will do their own adulting.

19:38 To though, wouldn't you? You like to have a cattle prod that reaches through the phone and just zzz. You're going to do it, right? This [laughter] Seriously. But I mean and usually our clients, you know, the biggest assets usually are real property. So, that's why we as a you know, as a matter of policy, we just make sure that that is recorded. So, if you were to see a binder from one of our clients and they have real property, that that they owned at the time that they were creating the trust, of course. Right. What you will inevitably find is that there is a stamped recorded copy of the deed in that binder. And that's that's the only time when we actually give them the binder after we've recorded the deeds. Got it. And that also includes, you know, if they have out-of-state properties, right? So, we then work with attorneys out of state to prepare those deeds according to those requirements and then make sure that those are also recorded and everything is nice and clean and clear. But Bill, I'm sure you've seen this a lot where, you know, then people create the trust and find they funded with the original few properties and then they go buy another property. Yes. Yes. And they don't realize that, okay, well, I just bought one, two, however many other properties. Yes. automatically get title to the trust. It's important to tell your broker. It's important to tell your agent, I have a trust, by the way.

20:57 Yes. So. No, that's 100% when you say that. I mean to cut you off because this is a constant problem, too, which is you know, with public records, I can see how a customer holds other properties. So, I know if they have a trust or not. And so, if we're buying something or selling it and whatever, I can make sure we implement that procedure, but I think that You're right. It's like, why have a trust? So, when I write a check out of my bank account, which I never funded properly, and then buy a property with it, and then now we're paying for it out of my, you know, income with my joint account with my new wife. And I meant this property for my son from the first wife. It just doesn't work, you know? And I think these things are maintenance is so important and that's why I think also it's important to check up from time to time. If you have new properties, a good you know, if it's significant, if you're talking about an income property or substantial, it's worth to remember your attorney just make sure everything was done properly. and as real estate agents, we should be flagging this stuff. We should be encouraging our customers to bring it to the attorney if we know that's probably necessary. So, you know. Absolutely. And well, you know, it also goes hand in hand with the whole with the whole idea behind having your trust reviewed over time, right? Because when we have our review meetings with our clients where we look at this existing trust, but it's not just looking at the trust. The rest of the conversation is, well, what has changed since you created this trust?

22:21 So, does the trust need to be changed? Did you acquire new assets? Do we need to re-title those over? and obviously, as far as the actual trust documents and the will and everything that goes with it, have there been major life changes, right? Has there been a death, a divorce, a remarriage, a marriage, you know, birth of a child, whatnot? And a lot of times, you know, people again, in their minds, it's like, okay, check, I have a trust. Right. It's important to keep coming back to it at least every 5 years if you don't have major life events. and it's not always life events. I mean, there could also be change in person in dynamic with the individuals you've named in your in your estate plan. so, and that's where, you know, catching those additional properties usually comes in when people come in for the trust review because inevitably, there's always the client who, you know, they created their trust, they funded it with their property, and then they did a refinance. Right. And then they take it out of the trust to refinance. Yeah, and then never went back in again. Yeah. Yeah. No, I've seen those regularly, too. You know, You know, in constitutional law, there's an argument over, you know, strict constructionists, meaning as it's written, and is it a living, breathing document? and it's a theory that the Constitution changes with time.

23:45 I think, as a real estate agent, I can say, your estate plan is not a living, breathing document. It either wasn't written right or it wasn't written right. And if you don't write it right, you're going to have to do something to fix those problems and they're not going to be free and they're not going to be fun. You're not going to enjoy it. And so, definitely it's worth your review. Absolutely. One of the trends I see just in my time in this in this niche, I've been focusing in probate real estate now and estate real estate for, you know, full-time for about five and a half, six years, is the need for professional fiduciaries that more and more estates have multiple properties, commercial properties, that you know, when you step in as a successor trustee, it's really like you're taking over a business. And if you already have a busy life, you already have a job or you already have a business or you have a family, taking on a four, five, 10 million dollar or more estate is like taking over a business, except a four, five, or 10 million dollar business. And while people can be effective, it's no real testament to their manliness or their womanliness or their productivity. It really is, do you have room to deal with this and do you have the skill set appropriate for that? Talk a little bit about where you see the role of professional fiduciaries. You I know you as an agent, I think, I mean, as attorneys step in and do that sometimes. Talk about I just feel it's really underutilized and should be more commonly recommended, more commonly implemented. Absolutely. You know, I'm starting to see more and more families who actually get stuck at this at the level of not knowing who to name as a as a fiduciary. Now, sometimes it's because they may not have family around them that they trust or they do have family and they don't trust them.

25:23 So, I bring up the idea of a professional fiduciary rather frequently and I say, you know, it's some it's important to know that what it is that you want is going to be taken care of by an individual who has the bandwidth and has the know-how, right? And knows when to reach out for, you know, legal counsel if they need to, when to reach out to different professionals when they need to. so, you know, I think it's it's very important to always have that conversation with the clients when they're planning and to make it be The other thing that comes in, it's not just the, you know, five to 10 million dollar estate that this professional fiduciary is going to be administering. It's also the fact that they're emotionally removed, right? So, they're not going to be grieving. They're going to have a different mindset when it comes to administering everything, when it comes to getting a whole bunch of, you know, appraisals and date of death values and, you know, making sure that they know what's where and what to do with it or making sure taxes are taken care of by the CPAs. So, that's where professional fiduciaries can have that kind of like that removed emotionally removed position to administer efficiently. Now, is it good for every family?

26:42 Not necessarily. It really depends on the dynamic. I recently have a, you know, just finished off an estate plan for a client who said, you know, my daughter, she my oldest daughter, she's an attorney. She doesn't do estate planning, but she would know that she would probably call an attorney who does trust administration or whatnot to help her through it. And she has the sophistication to be able to handle the type of estate that I'm leaving behind. But then I also have clients where they say, you know, I have three adult children and they're just having fun in life and spending mom and dad's money. and I want to name my eldest. And I say, well, would that eldest child, if let's say something happened to you tomorrow, would they know what to do? They're only 25 and they're having the time of their lives, you know. Would they know what to do? And is that how you want this to be? Because if anything, you might leave more chaos and confusion without a professional fiduciary than you would with one. Would they want to do it? I mean, if I'm 25 years old and spending mom and dad's money, maybe I don't need bothered, you know, ringing the banks for copies of certified statements and they want a copy of the death certificate and certified trust documents and, you know, some of this stuff is very tedious and difficult work to get banks to comply, safe deposit boxes. So, I just again, I think it sounds glamorous to handle the estate, but often times the it's just really business and a job. And it's also one that you only do probably once in your life.

28:11 And so, you're not going to learn to do it that well cuz you're only going to do it one time. You know, it's not like you're a professional administrator. So, I was I definitely recommend most people consider it because and also as a realtor, I think that they can work more quickly and we can maximize the value of the assets, particularly if there's multiple assets involved, commercial assets, I think is important. Well, look, I know I've got a little bit long time-wise. I really appreciate your time, Nikki. You know, I met you by your announcement in the LA Business Journal of joining really one of our favorite firms, RELAW, I'm not sure how you pronounce it, but RELAW APC with I think the principal attorney is Jennifer Felten, one of our favorites, who really goes more into real estate and I've had her on the my podcast a couple times. talk a little bit about your recent change in your practice and why you aligned with RELAW as a way for your business. Absolutely. So, Jennifer Felten is truly someone who I admire professionally and personally. And when I joined this firm, I joined with the intention to lead the trust and estates department at RELAW. Oh. Now, the beauty with about RELAW and having a trust and estates department is all the things we just talked about, right? Making sure that title is clear, making sure that And the other thing is, you know, at RELAW, we also create LLCs or form corporations. And a lot of times, that is part of an entire, you know, a more holistic estate plan that a client needs.

29:40 Yes. So, working at this firm has enabled me to really have the foundation and the processes and this amazing setup that Jennifer's created at this firm and how well it's like a well-oiled machine and having a support system and then having her as a mentor. It's just been phenomenal and I really you know, I see so much potential in this department that I'm growing and I'm just very grateful to be part of this team. It truly is amazing. So, when you say growing, does that mean that you are is it just about you know, doing good work and getting more business? Do you actually go out and recruit other attorneys to join? What's the process look like of growing a department like this? So, I mean, I'm not only working on the actual matters, so the estate planning or the administration, but I'm also in charge of making sure that I'm networking and I'm and I'm bringing in other just is you know, putting the word out that at this firm we now have a well-established trust and estates department. Nice. Well, I'm glad to I like I said, I had chance to interview Jennifer I think twice. Amazingly, I remember I did research before we interviewed. I was exhausted.

30:54 [laughter] I asked her, "How do you How do you do all that and practice law? You have your own cases." I mean, she really is just an incredible woman and so again, I saw that you joined the firm and wanted to welcome you on behalf of the real estate industry. She does such amazing job there and then to me it is a natural. It was kind of a gap in their in their offering and I think you fit that nicely and I think you said correctly that in my experience as a real estate broker in probate administration, trust administration, yes, setting up LLCs, moving assets into them, either as a planning stage or administration stage, real estate law, evictions and contracts, all that fits nicely with having those resources in-house versus having to go outside and find people. I imagine you guys could do the evictions as well through these commercial properties and things like that. So, again, it to me just makes a lot of sense and I'm really happy to see good people get together. So, Nikki, thank you so much for your time. Good luck with the building of this new department but continued success with your estate planning and estate trust and probate administration business. Thank you so much, Bill. This was a lot of fun and I appreciate the invitation to join you here. And if you want more information, Nikki's contact information is below. The phone number [phone number shown on screen] and she's at relawapc.com. relawapc.com is the website and I'll put actually I'll put that on stage as well.

32:17 And then again, Nikki's attorney there. You can reach out to her individually. Again, thank you so much for your time, Nikki. Just again, really enjoy always enjoy talking to someone from your firm. Thank you so much.

32:28 Thank you so much, Bill. And for those of you, this is Probate Weekly. We get together every week and talk about either probate administration, probate litigation or avoiding probate with proper estate planning. Today, I think with Nikki we had a really good insight into that process and how to deal with clients to how to avoid making problems worse. So, if I can help at all, if you like this, please like it, subscribe, give us some comments, send me a text or email, let me know what you think of it. If I can help in any way, please reach out at Bill Gross Probate on social media. As always, make today your best day ever. Thank you.