Using a Reverse Mortgage as a Purchase Tool, with Ted Butler, The Voice of Reverse Mortgage

0:02 Well, people tell me I have a face for radio. Today I'm really lucky to have the voice of reverse mortgages. So I don't know if that means he has somebody a face for being the voice of radio or not, but certainly he is one of the experts of reverse mortgage and more importantly and using it for purchases, Ted Butler, who happens to be the voice of reverse mortgage, the founder of HECM for purchase.com and with Mutual of Omaha reverse mortgage. Ted, thank you for joining us again today. Oh, my pleasure, Bill. Always good to see you. Thanks for having me. And you know, I as a real estate broker I got into this business of reverse mortgages primarily because of problems on people past and the servicing issues. But there's a whole another aspect to this I learned about which is using this as a purchase tool. And the term often used is HECM for purchase, home equity I'll let you tell me. HECM for purchase home equity conversion mortgage, I think it is. Absolutely, but we like to call it at Mutual of Omaha, we call it the lifestyle home loan. There you go.

1:02 And so we're finding that is a much kinder and softer introduction to a very versatile purchase option. But yep, HECM home equity conversion mortgage, you got it right. And so you know, what prompted me to learn about this was kind of the hard way. I currently live in California for personal reasons looking to perhaps relocate to Florida. I lived there, loved it for a couple years. I'm married, I have family here. It'd be complicated. Don't want to sell the family house, but I could maybe make it a second home by a primary residence in Florida. We had enough cash, I didn't want to take another loan on to buy for $500,000. And I was shopping and shopping and it wasn't much I could find that I would work with. And then all of a sudden I realized talking to I think it was you or one of your colleagues that well, I didn't have to limit myself to $500,000 because with that with a HECM for purchase, I could get maybe a $300,000 loan and get a $800,000 purchase price with no extra payment. So talk about a bit how the HECM for purchase program works. Yeah, and you are a poster boy for what FHA agreed to do. So what they did is they took the standard home equity conversion mortgage that prior to 2007 was used as a refinance tool. And with our urging and guidance, they realized that this program could be just as applicable as a purchase option as it is a refinance. So in your situation, it would help somebody leverage the down payment amount that they had available. And who would not rather start shopping in a much broader circle of available homes that $500,000 purchase price and still not have a monthly mortgage payment. And so that's one way that we help folks strategize using this program. The other is that person who may say, "Ted, I have $800,000, but I don't know if I want to put all of that liquid capital back into another illiquid asset. How about I only put $500,000 into that and I can keep

3:07 $300,000 to give my financial planner to help strengthen my income in retirement." So the great thing is it's a tool that really can be looked at through both ends of that same telescope. And so again, there's a couple different options you're talking about. One is you can buy for cash using the reverse mortgage. Another one is you can supplement the cash you have to buy a house using a reverse mortgage. Yeah.

3:32 And you know, the other situation though I didn't really apply for that is I imagine also it would like to use if you have excess cash, like in my case I was looking to relocate, you can maybe pay down the mortgage you have or refinance their a second home into a lower payment as well cuz you're using the you can shuffle the equity as it makes sense based on your personal finances. I think that's the thing is it gives that equity that otherwise is locked in and unavailable normally. I there's no way I could have qualified to refinance and buy another property in Florida. It just wouldn't wasn't going to happen, but I could I could get a home equity line or a HECM and then give me some flexibility what to do with it. So those are the options. Now I imagine it's challenging in that the HECM loans do require you know, some extra time and it gives some education and some preparation of the customer more than a standard loan. There's no reason why it should be other than it's a little different and people aren't as prepared for it. So what's the timeline look like for a purchase? If a buyer is you know, going to say, "I want to move like in my case and I want to get a HECM." What are the what's the extra preparation they need in order to get a HECM and then in reality what does that look like in getting that done? Well, in reality when we accept a purchase and sale agreement, we require at least a 30-day close. Now, I will tell you I closed loans in as little as 14 days, actually one 11 days. We really don't like doing that because that really puts a lot of pressure not much on us, but title companies, etc.

5:03 But we are very comfortable with a 30-day close. And it really is no different than what they would have to do to get ready for conventional purchase. Yeah, a little bit of forethought goes a long way, a bit of education, understanding what the options are. That's why we spend so much time educating Realtors® about what this option looks like. But once they once they say yes, this is the finance tool that I want, Mutual of Omaha provides a fully underwritten pre-approval as part of the process. So we can hit the ground running as soon as they locate a home, agree on a price, negotiate a purchase and sale agreement, and yeah, at that point we are halfway there. And it's really fun. When people realize the impact that either keeping you know, a huge chunk of the proceeds from the sale of their departure house, what that means to their lifestyle, what that means to their retirement income. Oh my goodness, it's amazing. What usually happens though is people will take that extra money and particularly if it's new construction, they'll plow it right back into all the upgrades that they could possibly dream of. And oh my goodness, do we make three parties happy that way? We make the buyer of course happy. We make the Realtor® happy. And oh my goodness, do we make the builder happy because in today's new construction world, profitability is squeezed beyond belief. Right. And so really their capture is really coming from those upgrades. Our buyer is purchasing those upgrades for pennies on the dollar and they usually go all in on them. So much fun. So much fun for them to say, "Yes, you can have the upgraded flooring. Yes, you can have the upgraded kitchen. And yes, you can even have the outdoor kitchen if you'd like." Now, on one hand the upgrade process and builders can evoke some negativity in that sounds like well, they make more money on the upgrades than the house, which is true. I used to work in the building environment as a lender.

7:06 The flip side I can also tell you is that when buyers at the time of purchase buy the upgrades, they often are cheaper than they would get later or less and certainly more convenient to get done later. And so I started this business in the new builder home community, Diamond Bar and several surrounding cities. And I saw the process up front. I know that people complained about how much the upgraded flooring was and the cabinetry and some of the other options that we had. But I also saw when it came time for the buyer to replace that stuff after they moved in, A, now you got to move out of the flooring or move your stuff out. And B, you know, the vendor was a one-off versus the builder doing it in mass quantity. And so I do think it's certainly worth pricing and comparing and I think what you're really doing is giving them the tool and the flexibility at the time to take the limitation off the off the table to say, like in my case, it's funny, I was looking at $500,000 condos and you know, 550, 580. I don't really have that much money. Well, all of a sudden I had $800,000.

8:14 I'm like, "Well, hold on. I need another this. I need another that. Oh, that's a little closer." And I spent in shopping I spent that money real fast. And I do think that giving people the flexibility is the key whether they use it effectively and but the builder upgrades aren't necessarily a bad thing. They're something that gives people the chance to maybe customize the house the way they want it when they move in. Yeah, we love telling our buyers, "Yes, you can." Yeah. "Yes, you can have that house that you dreamed of. Yes, you can have the upgrades that you would really like." And you know, for many of our folks, Bill, this is the last home that they're going to live in. Might as well make it the best home that you've ever had. Enjoy this time while you'll still have it. Oh my gosh, we have such great stories about people who have really found a home that was far beyond what they could have ever dreamed of without using this program. And it's fun. And so you know, we do a lot of new construction business, but I would say the majority of our business is still resale. You know, people buying homes to go closer to their kids and grandkids is one of the number one motivating factors. We have people who literally move away from their kids sometimes.

9:35 But usually it's for quality of life purposes and it's really interesting to see how the demographic has changed. I've been in this industry now for 23 years. And oh my goodness, things are different today than they were when I first got here. You know, one of the most important aspects is how the home buyer demographic has shifted. We have a number of contributing forces, but I encourage people, especially those professionals that may be watching this, pay attention to the data. A great source happens to be the industry itself. The National Association of REALTORS® has great information documenting what's going on in today's real estate world and the surprising thing is that average age of a home buyer today is age 63. Yeah. A year ago, it was 59. Yeah. 53%

10:35 Of all home buyers are now 55 plus. Right. We are now the largest demographic of buyers in the country. Hey, we, are you saying I'm over 55? Well, I mean the I'm talking back collectively just

10:49 I'm well over 55. I've just Are you over 55, Bill? Well, sensitive about it. Yeah. I know, I get that up a long time Have a good But you know, the interesting thing is that you know, the number has changed. We're now dealing with a record low number of first-time home buyers. Oh my goodness, does that upset a lot of Realtors®' apple carts. I mean, that used to be the linchpin of their business. Well, not today. If you're going to have a business, Right.

11:14 You have to reorient to where the business is and that is boomers and older. We're seeing higher down payments than ever before. We're seeing more cash buyers than ever before. We're seeing for sale by owner at record lows. You know, it is it is so different than it used to be and just a little bit of awareness will really help the professionals both on the real estate side, on the finance side, and yes, and the home buying side as well. And one of one of the interesting myths that I like helping people become comfortable with is you know, we hear a lot about what type of home is somebody going to buy in retirement and there's kind of an automatic default that it's going to be a smaller home. Not necessarily true. Yes, just over half, 51% of the time that 55 plus buyer is going to buy a smaller home. But 38% of the time they're going to buy a larger home. Right. And it's so it's it you cannot just assume that person facing retirement is going to buy, you know, a little downsized package someplace. And it's a it's really an awful lot of fun. Well, if you're going to buy a house and you have an extra nice area for your grandkids to come visit and where your kids to bring the grandkids, you're going to get more visit time. So, that's one of the motivating factors. I know friends of mine who bought some beautiful homes in Florida because that makes sense. And you know, to your point, you know, more and more buyers are 55 and older, 60 and over, 65 and older.

12:50 It's amazing to me as a as a close watcher and viewer of real estate industry news and marketing how the focus so much on buyers is on and nothing wrong with a you know, first-time couple in their 30s with their first kid. I think it's my daughter's in that category. I think it's great that we help those people, but like nothing is being addressed to these issues of the older buyer as far as buying properties maybe when you move in to make the proper arrangements and fixes to accommodate access and remove safety issues. And I think obviously financing. I've never seen anything on Zillow, Redfin, realtor.com. Maybe realtor.com I have. I'm just trying to think. I just see so little marketing information about the reverse mortgage and yet this is a tool that would unlock more options for more people. And if I was a real estate agent in a community where people moving in, I'm in LA, we have people moving out. If I was in Florida or Tennessee or Texas, people moving in. And if I was in near adult centers where people moving in, I think this is a big competitive advantage just waiting for Realtors® to learn to find the Ted Butler of their area or to combine with you in the area you service and to really offer a tool to help people unlock equity and have more affordable option. Well, I can tell you where we are seeing it without a doubt, Bill, and that is with new home construction. We work closely with almost every single 55 plus builder around the country, every major one.

14:28 And the feedback that we get from them is really compelling. 15 to 30% of sales today are being done with our product in that 55 plus community. And yet, it's still it's almost like a closely guarded secret.

14:45 It is. And I have a podcast on I have a podcast on the subject. It's a closely guarded secret. It's amazing to me. Yeah. And so part of it is industry insider information. Okay, nobody likes sharing the secret sauce. Well, I'm here to spill the tea, okay? That's exactly why you and I are talking right now. And we're doing everything in our possi- in our in our power possible to educate. I last year, let's see, over the last 3 years I've trained over 2,500 Realtors®. That's nothing. That's nothing compared, but I'm only one guy. But I've trained 2,500 Realtors®. We're trying to reach builders, Realtors®, but I will tell you where I'm having the greatest impact and this is this is really kind of foreshadowing. 50% of my purchase business is now coming from financial planners. Wow.

15:36 The financial planning community is now realizing the power of the lifestyle home loan and the implication that it has for longevity in retirement. And they're the ones that are really starting to pick up the banner. Even I would say even more so than Realtors®, quite interestingly. Wow. So, I do a lot of work in the financial planning industry. Wow. I'd say please say that the majority of my business comes from financial planners and they are now becoming right there with Realtors® as far as my number one referral source. So, I'm going to encourage I'm going to encourage a number of people today. I want everybody to get into the reverse mortgage industry if they can. I want forward loan officers to think about ways that they can broaden their reach. Oh my gosh, I feel sorry for my forward brothers and sisters out there. It's been a tough few years. Layering in the idea of reverse mortgage can really improve your overall reach. Working with Realtors®, it's an it's actual natural fit and then cross-pollinating with financial planners also. Once people understand that this is the tool of the future. We have a huge demographical shift going on in the country, not just home buyers. Yeah.

17:00 We educate financial planners about something called peak 65 where we have the largest mass of American society moving through aging right now and it is going to really turn the tables on all aspects of our culture. Homes are going to be changing. Planning is going to be changing. Caregiving is going to be changing. But you hit the nail right on the head, Bill. There's such lack of preparation, lack of awareness. Right. And it's like you're watching a train wreck almost in slow motion. It's inevitable. You know, that's why and it's interesting because it's not a surprise. There's a reason why the Department of Housing and Urban Development created the FHA home equity conversion mortgage way back in 1987. They saw the handwriting on the wall. They realized that the baby boomers were not being replaced at the same rate as the previous generation. And what happens when you have fewer people moving into the populace as opposed to the group in front of them is that means there's less taxpayers going to support that larger generation at a point in time where that larger demographic is starting to consume more of the government programs that are out there.

18:21 Anyway, so it shouldn't be a surprise, but that's why you and I are talking today and Yeah, love the opportunity. Let's talk about some of the challenges cuz you know, great opportunity, but with all opportunities come obstacles that need to be addressed and worked on. What do you see as the biggest challenges for people who explore the option of a heck of a purchase or the lifestyle home loan that just doesn't fit for them for some reason or maybe due to lack of preparation it could have fit, but they didn't plan ahead. What are some of the challenges or obstacles that you see that maybe we can work around or overcome or can't be overcome. They're challenges to the product. Yeah, those are and you're right, Bill. There's always two sides to every coin. There's always cons to go with the pros. So, the cons with our program is that A, you have to have a certain amount of down payment, much higher than a conventional mortgage. And we're talking, you know, 60% plus in most instances. So, we're not going to be a dramatic budget stretch. We're not for that person who can afford 20% down. So, right away, we're going to encapsulate a certain group of home buyers. The second aspect is that while we don't have a monthly mortgage payment, we do have some credit standards. So, we have to do take a critical look at somebody's past performance. We aren't going to gauge their interest rate based on credit score or income. They're going to choose whatever interest rate that they want and there's a range of interest rates with this program and there's benefits for each one. But with the purchase, we are going to pay critical attention to the fact whether they've been able to manage their responsibilities well over the last 2 years. Have they paid property taxes and homeowners insurance on time, HOA on time?

20:09 Any delinquencies or judgments or defaults, etc. We are going to have to accommodate for that. And it's not that they can't proceed with some of those blemishes, but it may increase the size of their down payment. You know, some hurdles, not anything instrumental, not anything really different than what they might be looking at with a conventional mortgage. You know, the other aspect is the fact that this is a negatively amortizing loan. So, they have to understand that just like with a standard home equity conversion mortgage, it's a mortgage. The lender, Mutual of Omaha, is going to charge them interest for the money that they've utilized. It's not a handout program, it's not a giveaway. And so, that interest without making a monthly payment is simply going to accrue. So, they'll see a mortgage balance that will grow slowly over time. But the same function that allows a conventional mortgage to work, which is called home appreciation, is the same function that allows the reverse mortgage to work. And so many people fail to grasp that when they use a conventional mortgage, let's say to buy a house, they borrow $300,000 to buy a house. But by the time they're done paying that mortgage back, they paid the bank back well over $600,000, probably closer to 7 or 800,000 dollars. And that would be crazy if that $300,000 house was still worth only $300,000 30 years down the road.

21:38 But we know that $300,000 house is now probably worth a million dollars. So, yeah, it makes financial sense to have paid the bank back $800,000 for that $300,000 purchase. The consumer doesn't think like that, mainly because the industry doesn't want them to think like that.

21:57 So, the industry doesn't want them to focus on how much money their mortgage is going to cost them over 30 years. But it's that same basic principle that allows the home equity conversion mortgage to work. And that is the understanding, not guaranteed, the understanding that homes have grown in value and will continue to grow in value over time. And that growth in value more than covers the cost of the financing. Other than that, oh my gosh. I mean, who wouldn't want to live in their dream home without having to put all their proceeds into the house, not having a monthly mortgage payment, and maybe buying a much nicer house than they ever thought that they could. It's such a win-win-win situation. It's so much fun. One of the challenges of relocating sellers,

22:46 Particularly seniors, where it's, you know, physically it's more challenging to move, pack up, and there's emotional sides, is the financing of the of the interaction. They may be selling a house, let's say here for me in Los Angeles, and they're going to buy a house, let's say in Nashville or Florida or Arizona or someplace. But there's an interim period, like, you know, where they're living day one, where they're living the last day and the first day. And so, one of the options that we've used has been to try to find like a 30-day overlap where contingencies are cleared on the on the sale, and then they can go ahead and close on the purchase 30 days before they close the sale side. Now, if you have enough money to do that's great. Another option is if you have money in IRAs, you can borrow money in your IRAs or withdraw and pay it back within 60 days. So, if you're going to, you know, pull the money out of your IRA to close on the purchase, you can then sell your house and pay your IRA money back is a way to do that. Another way to do that would be with a HECM for purchase where you could perhaps buy a property with more money borrowed than you would want normally. With the idea that when your house sold, you could either pay down that loan mortgage or keep the money in the bank afterwards. But one of the challenges is sometimes that sale price isn't higher, could be a little less. You know, for the same size house, LA to Florida, you might get you might be half the price or 75% of the price.

24:11 Are there issues on being able to get a loan when you have a loan and moving out of state? I mean, can you can you document that you're actually planning to move? Is that is that a possibility to use the HECM for purchase in a scenario of relocating like that? Or what would the restrictions be? Yes. So, of course, it's an FHA mortgage, which means it has to be your primary residence. Right. No, you do not have to sell your departure house in order to purchase the new house. But yes, you have to have the funds available for that down payment. And you will have to document either that departure house is being sold or is under contract or that you have firm plans on what to do with it, that you're going to rent it out for instance or keep it. And we have 60 days for you to establish residence in the new property. You know, it's interesting. I'm working with a with a borrower right now as a matter of fact who just sold her departure house last week after last August purchasing her new home using a bridge loan. And so,

25:25 It Yes, it's expensive. Sometimes people are impetuous. They throw the like in horse jumping, they throw their heart over the jump before the house the horse gets there. And in this instance, yes, they found the house they wanted, they wanted to act on it immediately, they took out a bridge loan. Now, we are not going to have enough to pay off the entire bridge loan with the proceeds from the departure home. But using the lifestyle home loan, we are going to have more than enough using the proceeds to once we finance the new primary residence, we'll have more than enough to handle the paying off the balance of the bridge loan. I've never done I've never done a transaction like that, but it's working out beautifully. And yeah, now we're going to have a borrower who's going to get her dream home, no monthly mortgage payment, and an extra couple of hundred thousand dollars to sock away for retirement. I really believe in all businesses these days that what used to be the edge case has become a more standard product or service offering. I think back on McDonald's in the 1980s, a book was written about how they were the one of the best companies in America because they only did certain food. They only did hamburgers and cheeseburgers and fries and milkshakes and fish sandwiches. And yet to respond to market, they had to add all these other products to be competitive. I think as real estate agents, it'd be nice all we did was first time buyers or sellers. I do think that we need to be working more edge cases like relocation and working with a lender to make it happen in the destination and a referral partner there to monitor the closing of the escrow.

27:11 And I think those are both challenges for real estate agents because we don't normally get involved in the financing like that and the referral part. But opportunities because if we do a good job, we're serving our customer and I think that alone is what gets more business for us. So, part of the reason I launched this podcast was to challenge real estate agents to be better at your business. Don't tell me how slow the market is. Tell me what you're doing to make the market bigger for yourself and for your for your customers. And one answer is to really learn this tool. You know, Ted, it's one thing to say you've talked to a lot of real estate agents, which is nice. I'm sure we have Realtors® on this call and or forward originators on this call who want to get into this tool more and learn how to be more effective. So, what are next steps they should consider taking? Obviously, subscribe to the podcast. We have great people like Ted on every week. Not as good as him every week, but we have really good people on every week. Sometimes better, but not often. But besides my podcast, what can somebody do who wanted to consider this as a, you know, career move or enhancement or new niche, whether it be an originator or real estate agent or financial planner? What are some of the next things they can do to help move that process? Well, I think one of the best things to do is have a conversation. And I always put myself out there as a ready ear. I'll be more than happy to share my experience, strength, and hope. I've been doing this now for 23 years. Prior to that, I was a financial advisor.

28:35 And I want everybody to get into this industry. So, I don't keep it a secret. I'll be more than happy to give you insight. Of course, I'm a bit biased. I work for the number one reverse mortgage lender in the country, Mutual of Omaha. We're the largest now, the highest rated. But more importantly, it's about understanding and education. If you're a forward originator, yes, you can dramatically expand your business by incorporating this one extra tool. But it's different than what you're used to. We are much more education and relationship based as opposed to transaction based. You're going to do far fewer units and spend much more time, but I think you'll get much greater satisfaction. For the financial planners out there, you need to know how this tool works in order to help your clients survive retirement, manage continue to keep those assets under management as long as possible, maximize guaranteed income in retirement, etc. And then for the for the laypeople out there, the consumers, believe me, education is what it's all about. I'm more than happy to take the time to make sure that you've got the information to make an informed decision. So, give me a call, send me an email, go to my website.

29:55 I'll be more than happy to guide you to whatever resource that it is that you need. There's a website other than mine that I refer people to all the time. So, if anybody listening has a pen and paper, get ready to write down this very simple URL. And if you're ready, it's www.hud.gov. HUD.gov. Why do I send you there? That is the entity that created the modern reverse mortgage. In the search box, just type in reverse mortgage and you will find everything that you need to know about this program, not from a lender's point of view, not from an originator's point of view, but from the federal agency that created this program. Many people are shocked to find out that hey, this is a federal mortgage program. They're even more shocked to find out that it was signed in the federal law in 1988. So, this program, the home equity conversion mortgage, is more than just a mortgage. It is a superpower mortgage with the full backing and protection of the federal government. And so, when people say, "Oh, Ted, are they safe? Are they sound?" Of course they're safe and sound, or the federal government wouldn't be providing them the way that they are. Now, when I say provide, they created it, they manage it, they insure it, but they don't lend money to people like you and I, Bill. You may have noticed they put that responsibility in the hands of lenders like Mutual of Omaha.

31:30 But go to hud.gov. It's a great place to begin your research. I'll help you fill in the blanks. And then, you know, you'll be able to come to a very workable understanding of what this option might mean for you. Yeah, the other thing that I really try and encourage people to do is to keep an open mind. Many people have heard of reverse mortgages. And many people have heard negative things about the program. And just like any urban myth or legend, there's usually a little grain of truth somewhere. For sure. I have to tell you, I've never come across a program that has been so mischaracterized as the modern reverse mortgage has. It is unequivocally, and I mean unequivocally, the safest mortgage in America by far. It has, if not the highest, one of the highest consumer satisfaction ratings. Right. This is from people who've actually used it, of any financial product that there is. Higher than insurance, higher than annuities, higher than real estate transactions, higher than conventional mortgages. Right. Yet, somehow the stigma continues. All it takes is education. Believe me, I know. I know because I was one of those financial advisors, you know, 24 years ago, sitting there in a room in a seminar with my arms crossed going, "Tsk." Right. Until my clients forced me to do my own diligence, and I was going to write a white paper on why not to use the program, but that white paper turned into a paper extolling the virtues of the program because I went to hud.gov, did my research, I went to FHA, learned how they interact with program. FHA is the department of HUD that insures and administers the program.

33:23 And oh my gosh, was I surprised. And I think most people will be surprised as well. But there's so much more to unpack with this. It is such a fabulous financial planning tool. And one of the things that my financial planners really gravitate toward is how we can help them with their clients move away from an asset that's a liability, a house that has a payment, to something that not only doesn't have a payment, but something that can produce income. Now, the money that you get from a standard reverse mortgage is not income. You don't pay taxes on it. It's not classified as income. It's a loan. But, do you know that you can purchase a duplex, a triplex, and a fourplex with this lifestyle home loan? So, imagine a financial planner who's got a client entering retirement that needs income. Their planning hasn't worked or hasn't worked well enough, and they need income. They can turn their house, a single-family residence, using our program, into a substantial multi-unit property, Right. Two-unit, three-unit, four-unit.

34:37 Live in one of the units, no carrying cost, rent out the other one, two, or three units for income. What I recommend they do is hold the property in the name of a trust. Don't name it after yourself. Hire a property management company to manage the property. Yes, it's going to cost you 10%, but it'll be the best 10% you've ever spent. Sit back. If plumbing breaks, complain along with the neighbors about the lousy landlord, and sit there and collect the money. My financial planners love this concept. And so do the consumers who decide to take advantage of it. And there's so many other fun things that you can do. Well, look, there's a whole host of things. That's why I have a podcast with about 100 episodes so far. And so I said, "Let's talk about" I appreciate Ted you going into detail on the purchase side in particular. If you want more information or would reach out to him, hecm4p.com is the website. Ted Butler hecm I'm sorry, hecm for purchase. Hecm number four purchase.com, sign below in the banner, as well as his phone number, 425-891- 6644. Ted Butler reverse mortgage, the voice of reverse mortgage. Thank you so much for being with us today, both your voice and your picture, and your service of education.

35:56 We appreciate your contribution. Thank you so much. Well, thank you so much. Have a good day, everybody. And this is Reverse Mortgage. We get together in a new episode almost every week with a reverse mortgage originators and vendors to help us be more effective in serving our customers. Love to get your input. If you're interested in being on the podcast, if you're a originator or in that space, just let me know. Otherwise, if I can help in any way, reach out at Bill Gross Probate on social media. As always, make today your best day ever. Thank you so much.