Changes in Proprietary Reverse Mortgages, with Steve Somerman

0:01 I tell people I've been in the business a long time and I've seen a lot somebody who I have been in the business with step for step stride for stride we started together we started in the same location started really in the same little niche and now we have a chance to reflect back over a period of time Steveman who's a branch manager of PRMG mortgage and focuses a lot of business reverse mortgage helps me get help me get this podcast launched Steve thank you for coming back to the program

0:27 Well thank you very much I appreciate the opportunity So, like me, I started in the business decades ago. That's about when you started. I'll never forget that day.

0:38 Okay. I started in March sometime. I think it was March 1st, but Okay. Close same time. And I started in Claremont, but my territory is Diamond Bar. And I think you were in Diamond Bar or that's when we overlapped at the time, right?

0:48 Yeah. I basically picked Diamond Bar as my territory back then. And it worked out really well. It was a it was a there were some growing pains but once I got a hold of the ability that I possessed not somebody else possessed that kind of gave a sour name to the company I was with.

1:10 You know I basically tell people hey I am I am not Joe Schmo. I am Steve Somerman. Let me fail and yell at me but I'm not going to fail. You know, I think that's a key thing to think about that back when we started, that wasn't a common thought that we started the business, you really took on the company branding and culture and values and principles 100%. And yet they treat us like we're independent contractors. We're paid on commission. They didn't guarantee us any business. And I think a lot of those companies misused that trust. And today I tell people it doesn't really matter what company with. I know that your company's one of the largest in the country. I know one of your one of your executives, Baron, for a long time as well. But that means nothing to me if I do a deal with Steve Surman. It's because I believe you'll take care of it for me.

1:58 Yeah, exactly. That's true. Forward mortgages or reverse mortgages. That hasn't changed in all these years. And I have relationships in D and Bar that are over 30 years old.

2:07 Wow. Oh, good for you. So, I know you started the mortgage business as I did, decades ago. And in those days, the reverse mortgage didn't even exist, I don't think.

2:18 It kind of did, but didn't. Okay. And it came out kind of what I call version 1.0. And I dabbled in that back then. I was originator at that time. Did a couple. I thought it was very powerful. It was obviously misused and that led to a whole rewrite on what I refer to as reverse mortgage 2.0.

2:39 With a lot of protections for the customer. So, talk a little bit. I know you've been for a while. Talk about the protections for the customer that exist today that didn't exist when reverse mortgages really kind of became more popular originally you know 1015 years ago.

2:52 Well, there's a lot of myths. So today the reverse mortgage the individual will take title in their name or their trust. So the so it's like any other loan you're going to you are on the deed of trust. You own the home. It doesn't go to the bank. Okay. The other issue is the amount of money that you can get and the protections of it being a non-reourse loan whereby if you pass away, they reverse mortgage has four 90day periods for you to sit there and dispose of the property if it's in a trust or it's in a will. If it goes to probate, god forbid you have probate in California, but they well, you know about that.

3:45 That's my That's where I live. Yeah, exactly. Be there. That's your That's your That's your campground, man. I'm not gonna I'm not going to touch it. Well, you want to avoid it. I mean, the whole point of if you're going to do reverse mortgage, we want to talk about a little Well, I didn't interrupt you. Go ahead and I'll come back on school.

4:00 Yeah. So that they will reduce the mortgage amount or the appraised value whichever is less by 5%. So that the heirs have funds to sit there and dispose of the property whereby

4:15 Before it was like parents died get rid of the property we're taking over. You know, the that's when people experience the bad part of reverse mortgages,

4:30 Right, to today where after I think it was October 2017, the new guidelines were installed and they're so much more better. They're so much wellreceived. There's a lot of proprietary products that have come about of reverse mortgages for people that have loan amounts that are greater than what reverse mortgages normally would lend on for FHA. So the it just created a wealth of opportunity for seniors to sit there and use the equity in their homes to live on and not have to make a mortgage payment but just be responsible for their for their maintenance, their taxes, insurance, HOA dues, etc. And creating a real great model for opportunity where the senior today can actually look at planning their retirement around a reverse mortgage

5:28 Even in their 50s so that when they become 62 or 65 they're prepared to pull the trigger on it because they've done their homework. And then the people that are over 62 or 65 that's where we come in and see where they're where they're at. And of course, you have to have a p a certain amount of equity based on your age, the value of the property, and what's owed on the property. But it just really gives a great amount of opportunity to a lot of people. I've closed oh my gosh, since we spoke, I've been averaging two or three loans, which for reverses, it's a lot. A month, I've got two that I'm turning in today. I got another one that I'm taking. I got a reverse for purchase that's out there waiting to be accepted. So, it's great.

6:16 Hold on. You covered a lot. You know, there's a lot to unpack here. I know you're real sophisticated, but most of my most people watching this are going to be either real estate agents or regular mortgage originers looking to get into the reverse mortgage space. Let's unpack a little bit of what you said, the use cases. You mentioned that you have loans are turning in. When is reverse for purchase? Now, I have to tell you, I'm a real estate agent. I'm a broker. I have been pretty successful by most standards for years. I'm a pretty smart guy. Like I'm more smart than hardworking, I think. Or I'm more smart than I am charismatic and good-looking.

6:49 And yet I didn't know. I was shopping for a house for personal reasons. I tell the story a lot, but my I'd love to live in Florida. I used to live in Florida. I met my wife and we're married in Florida.

6:59 But we have a house here and our grandkids are here and I can't afford to sell this house and use it. I can only use excess savings. We don't have enough to buy a really nice house in Florida, but I had about $500,000. I was shopping around, couldn't find anything. And a reverse mortgage originator said to me, "Well, you could buy a house for like $850 and get a 350 reverse on top of your cash. If you're going to put 500,000 down, why not get a reverse?" I thought you can do that on a purchase.

7:26 I didn't know that. So, let's talk let's first talk about tell me about the case that is real. Obviously, there's some privacy issues, but what can you talk about when somebody uses a reverse mortgage as a purchase tool as opposed to just a refinance or financial planning tool?

7:41 So, it first of all, the amount of down payment that you'd have to come in with is basically the same percentage of equity that you would have of a normal reverse mortgage. It's just inverse where instead of receiving the money, you have to give the money.

7:59 Mh. So, for example, I'm looking at a bar that is just 65. To me, that's a young senior.

8:08 I appreciate that because I'm 66. So, yeah, I'm I know I'm 73, so I can talk about that. But the she's looking at a $435,000 condo and rather than pay all cash for the condo, she only needs $288,000 to get in, which then leaves her $175,000 to live on. So the mentality is you bas you basically have to back into what a buyer can qualify for based on the net proceeds of a sale or however much money they have

8:50 To sit there and purchase a house. And then once we have their age, we can determine the amount of house they can buy when we know the dollars that they have and they're are able to invest.

9:03 At what stage can they close the purchase side? Do they need the sale to, you know, because there's, I get, imagine some sort of a primary residence issue or a debt service issue. So, can they close on the purchase as long as they're listing their house? Can they close the purchase once it's under contract or is actually have to close before they can

9:22 The reverse for purchase is owner occupied only. You have to have the proceeds and the ability to purchase the house because you're going to move into it.

9:31 Yes. That's what I thought. And so when I was looking at Florida, I thought, well, I could move to Florida and spend enough time in the year, over half, to avoid California taxes, and have my family vacation with me in Florida a bit, a couple times a year, and then come home a lot. And I thought I would save I took all the tax savings I could spend that on travel to Florida. Well, that makes a lot of sense to me. Now that said, my wife wasn't keen on it. So, unless I get divorced, and I can't afford to get divorced and move to Florida. I can I can afford to get divorced, lose everything, and go to Florida penny list, but that's not really what my goal was. So, okay. So, that's reverse for purchase, which I as a real estate broker, I'm thinking like every single cash purchase, not investors, not flips, but cash purchase to live in for primary residence

10:22 If you're over 62. If you're over 62, should include a first mortgage, everyone. Yeah. And then again, the proprietary mortgages, you only need to be 55. Now, the amount of money that you need to come in is pretty much the same as percentages go, but the propri proprietary mortgages are available for values over $400,000 or at least a principal limit factor of $100,000 in most cases. So, as long as you meet those criteria, you have the ability to sit there and get a reverse for purchase and basically maximize the opportunity of living in a property, having the loan balance increase because that's what a reverse mortgage is,

11:10 Right? But keep those extra dollars in the bank with your financial planner, wherever it is that you want to invest them, right? All right. And let them be part of your retirement.

11:24 Yeah. And I think that's to me that's a no-brainer. Anybody who is buying a house or if you're a Realtor®, any client of yours who's buying a house for cash who's 55 or over, look up proprietaries or 62 or over. There's all kinds of options available for you. At least look at the option. At least run it by your client. At least try to be the hero because it doesn't cost anything to bring them the option and it may or may not fit them, right? But I think it will. I my thinking is

11:51 We should be doing 10 times worse mortgages they're doing today just for lack of understanding of the product. Yeah. I really think that when you paint the picture especially in today's California property values and you're and you're 65 years old and you need to come in with about 58% down. Okay. But if you want to live in a home and you have the money to pay all cash for that home, to come in with the 58% down of that sales price if you're 62 to 65 makes a hell of a lot of sense because the difference goes right back into your pocket and you can sit there and use it for whatever it is you want to do to invest. So then when this product first came out, it seemed the most common use case was the desperate homeowner who had nothing but equity and couldn't qualify for a loan. Now there still is a use case to help that borrower. I mean that might be a case but really the growth opportunity are for people who can afford to pay cash or afford to refinance but the reverse mortgage offers them tremendous flexibility and security and safety in a way that doesn't if as part of their overall financial package. For example, there are people who have, you know, huge retirement funds built up and they just routinely pull out dividends interest or sell stocks. Yet, if you're able to get a better return on your money than you would on the mortgage, that may might not be the right choice or that might not be the right choice one year when you have a lot of taxable income versus no taxable income. Talk a little bit about the flexibility that a reverse mortgage gives somebody when they're putting their financial plan together.

13:36 Well, I think they have to think about how much wealth and health are two big important things to me.

13:46 Health, I'm healthy. Okay. But the wealth part is always a work in progress. And I think that the opportunity of utilizing a reverse mortgage even though the again the loan balance is going up to have the available funds to sit there and set up your retirement in a position where you're maximizing your equity to get as much money as you can liquid to sit there and live on that tax-free money. Then pull out from your 401k or IRA where at some point in time you're going to have to pull at least 10% of it out and it's a 10 it's a it's or it's a penalty if you take it before you're allowed to. So to center your retirement savings around the cash again tax preci, you know, when you pull out cash from a refi, you're not paying taxes on it,

14:48 Right? Well, a reverse mortgage is the same thing. It's just your loan balance is going up instead of going down, but the money is yours to utilize is how you is how you see fit. Now you can

15:00 You sell the property and if you don't sell the property in your lifetime then avoids and then you're it gets deferred off into the to the future or Yeah. So you can utilize those funds before you have to sit there and really tap into your 401k or IRA.

15:15 Yeah. Or you can only or you can pull the minimum amount out that you must take, right? And still have this nest egg that you pull out of equity from a reverse mortgage and let live on that until such time that money is gone,

15:29 Right? And now you can sit there and pull your retirement out, but now you're pulling your retirement out because that's what's just left. But how much is that how much has that retirement grown in 5 to 10 years because you didn't have to take it,

15:43 Right? Or you only had to take the minimum required amount. It provides a great wealth of opportunity to a senior to sit there and know that they have that option.

15:53 And if they didn't have that option, then why the heck am I in the business talking about reverse mortgages? And this is why major corporations even with large cash on hand also have borrowings because there's advantages, tax advantages at times to borrow something and pay for it rather than to pay cash for it to liquidate assets that are generating revenue for you. And so again, this isn't for me or Steve to tell you what to do. This is for me or Steve to say to you, make sure you ask your financial planner. Is this an option for you? Because you want to open up options. And I think the other thing about it is you can use it when you want to and when you don't. It's a line of credit. At some point that it grows the amount money you can borrow on an adjustable rate. You're right. So today the adjustable rate is 6 and 38% on an arm, two and 38 margin, for example. Well, the growth rate 6.875% 875% on the unused portion of that money,

16:46 Right? I don't know if you remember her name, but her name is Beverly Mount. And I did a reverse mortgage for her and her husband. Her husband passed, but she and he had enough money in the home in the in Diamond Bar where she basically was living off of what the growth factor was on the unused portion of the money.

17:12 Beautiful. To pay for the loan. Beautiful. You know, it just it just it's just a winning situation when the numbers everything align and you have a free and clear property and now you've got all this money that you can utilize

17:29 To set up your retirement around and then anything else that you have again 401k, IRA stocks, bonds, whatever, but they're stuck in an IRA or 401k where you have a it's required that you have to pull money out after 73 years Then yeah, then pull out the minimum and use your reverse mortgage proceeds to live on.

17:52 Well, then also if you have to pay for something onetime kind of expenses and want to defer it, you can use your line now and then next year maybe liquidate like this year I have a really big windfall on my income which is great.

18:05 The bad news is anything I sell and have taxes on is gonna get taxed. I would love to not have to sell anything more until next year. So, if I had a lot and I have a reverse mortgage, I have enough effect to do that here yet. But if I did, I can just borrow against that to pay for whatever the one time expense was and then maybe repay it next year and defer the lease of taxes for a year, but maybe, you know, at a lower tax rate because now I'm at a lower rate. So, again, nobody's suggesting this is your solution. We're saying this is a tool in your tool box.

18:34 No, it's just an option and you need to talk to your financial planner. If he and if he doesn't understand it and most financial planners don't, you need to find one who does. And so that's a good question I have also for you is where do these loans tend to come to you from? Are they coming from past mortgage clients? Are they coming to you from professionals in the business? Where do you get the business of verse mortgage? Because I think so many times when I, you know, mention it to somebody, I get somebody who's been, you know, as old as me will say, "Oh yeah, those are terrible loans. You only get those if you need them." And I know they'll know what they're talking about, but they have a relationship with the customer. So h how do you get these loans? And then do you ever talk to financial planners and try to educate them on this as an opportunity for them?

19:14 It depends on the financial planner. There are some financial plan planning institutions that just don't like reverse mortgages.

19:24 They won't even let you talk about it. You won't you can't even get into a into to have a meeting with them because they just it's just not part of their persona and the way they want to sit there and financially take care of their clients. And if they if they would just listen and see the advantages of a possibility of a reverse mortgage, then more of them would. Most of my referrals come from past clients,

19:52 Right? Or loan officers from our company who want to do re who have a client that needs to get a reverse mortgage and they refer them to me and it's feeding me pretty well right now as far as the amount of loans that we're doing.

20:05 Nice. And I would I would really love to find a niche with financial planners who are basically self-employed financial planners rather than the industry financial planners because the industry financial planners basically don't like reverse mortgages.

20:28 Yeah, it's interesting you make that case. I think you're right. It's a challenge. I think it's one where we just have to keep educating our customers. Make sure they ask the question and try to get into their heads a little bit. So, you know, you and I have both been in the business quite a while. You know, again, for decades, both of us. You know, I f I'm surprised at how there's not a big population of young people pushing us out of the business. Like I feel like I should have been forced out five years ago. You know, when I was in the business, I was a young hungry buck, right?

21:03 And I ran over people my age. I ran circles around them till they were exhausted. With technology, it's obviously expanded my career. But I also think part of it is I found this my niche in business being probate and trust related. Reverse mortgages being a piece of that causing probate problems and such. And you have as well by expanding into the reverse mortgage.

21:22 So talk to maybe that new originator who's struggling. He's maybe he's at PMG, maybe he's at another company and he's, you know, doing some deals. He's barely paying his bills. He's getting into debt when or she or they want to build a career. Talk about the opportunity of them to specialize in reverse mortgage. What does it take to make that choice? And what do you think the opportunity is for them?

21:44 So, I would talk to them first about the reverse mortgage opportunity. And one of the things that I would do is say go on to Amazon and get this book. All right? It's called Understanding Reverse, Simplifying the Reverse Mortgage by Dan Hulquist. This is edition number for 2022. He usually upgrades it every couple of years with the with the financial changes, but you want to get a good feel for what reverse mortgages are. And you could come to a point where I'm not yet. I'm probably going to do it this year is be a certified reverse mortgage individual, get your CPM license, okay? For reverse mortgages and you know be certified as a reverse mortgage specialist. That the idea of having a niche in today's mortgage world is going to differentiate you from all the other lenders out there because once like the big the big three for me are nonQM reverse mortgages, okay, and first-time home buyer programs. That's it. Anything else that comes to me, it's because it's somebody I'm already working with and it's a referral. But if you just surround yourself and utilize technology with just two or three niches, then the other opportunities of loans are going to come,

23:20 Right? And I think today's youth, they want to make they want to make the big money now, right? And a lot of them don't have the it's kind of like what you said, they don't have the timmerity or the strength to sit there and fight through six to nine or eight months or 12 months or a year without making a lot of money and then they leave the business when the I mean I can't tell you how many times a loan officer left the business and the day they leaves the phone rings and there's a Realtor® saying, "Oh, is so and so available? Able. Well, why? Well, I got a borrower and he's Oh, I'll take care of it. He left He left the industry, but I'd be more than happy to help you. I'm sure you've experienced it, too.

24:06 No doubt. And it's like, don't quit before the miracle happens. You got to stay the Especially now. I mean, you got to just weather it out.

24:16 Yeah. I would say that there's a lack of willingness to endure. You see this in every aspect of life, though. The people who do get all the rewards, right? The young people I meet who are hardworking, disciplined, on the hunt, have a hustle muscle.

24:35 I see some people who are young who just make fortunes or have huge businesses or have fantastic businesses and I see people who don't routinely struggling and it's always they just can't get started. I see it all the time. In fact, there's I tell a story. There's a guy for exercise. I walk in my neighborhood. I go on a three- mile w walk and I wear a headset. I listen to, you know, something educational and or I'm on the phone and I'm walking and there's a guy who sees me. He's a friend of a friend and he tells me he wants to be in the business. This like a year ago. He had his license. He got out of it. Why'd you get out of it? Well, the answer is he didn't work hard enough to get enough deals to stay in the business,

25:15 Right? And I pass him every month or so. I'm getting ready. I'm pass my license. Like whatever, dude. I'm working. Like I'm exercising now. So, I go back to the office and get to work. And I think that's the thing to anybody listening to this. You can learn this niche and be a master at it, but you got to put the time in. You gota put the effort in. You probably have to start with a company

25:33 That's going to pay a little lower commission and hold your hand a little more and teach you a little more or you might have to be mentored by somebody in your business or further than business to get started and look at the beginning as your education. But anybody's will put the time in today. I just think the all the rewards are open to you. You just have to put the effort in.

25:49 Yeah. What we have our model here at PRMG is basically the loan officer can refer a loan to the reverse mortgage division

25:59 And any of the four of us that are in the reverse mortgage division nationally will get that lead and if it's in if we're not licensed in that state we will put them as the referring LO and I'm the LOA and I basically say just get out of the way get me help me get the borrowers initial documentation and watch what happens.

26:24 And that's what happens where I think sometimes people look at that and say, "Well, I'm going to split my commission with somebody." You realize here's a guy's been in the business 40 years. Like, you know, in college, you pay for that. It's called tuition.

26:34 Yeah. Here in our business, you get a referral fee while you refer that business. And I talk to agents all the time, why I don't want to have to pay you anything. Okay. Well, good luck. And I'll be in the business a year from now and you won't be. So, yeah, it's tough. It's tough. It's a tough challenge. People who are desperate want to hold on to every penny and I think that's the mistake coming from a scarcity like that. So let's talk about let's go back a little bit to the beginning and yet now in that obviously mindset must have been an important part of this. I mean, I don't think you know, and I talked about this back then. We met in the field and talked about deals and such, but you must have had some practice or some process that kept you focused in a positive way when you started to get through where you are now. And you must still have something going on positive in your mindset to keep you going at the age you're at, and age we're at. You know, you don't have to work at this point. I don't have to work anymore. I love it. I'm making really good money.

27:27 It's too easy to quit. I'm sorry. It's just, you know, I mean, I know that sounds ridiculous, but if there's a loan to be had and it can provide me with an income

27:41 That is sustainable for the course of a year that puts me in six figures, what am I going to get out of it? Yeah. Well, I think also probably like you, I've learned how to structure my day to where it doesn't interfere with the rest of my life either. I still get my exercise, my family time.

27:58 Yeah. I mean, if you can kind of see behind me that little diploma. I do I train jiu-jitsu. I'm a second degree black belt in jiu-jitsu.

28:09 Wow. Took me eight and a half years to get a black belt. I mean, it's hard. But like you said, I've always been able and I've always had the mentality of work hard and work harder.

28:25 Where's that come from? It's just the way I grew up. I came from the Midwest. I mean, it was the Midwest mentality. You just got to work hard to get somewhere.

28:36 How do you keep it today? You've been out of the Midwest for at least 40 years, I'm aware of. Oh gosh. For a long time. It's just a mentality of being a competitive athlete

28:48 And that competitive athlete, even though I'm 73, I get on the mat with guys that are 100 pounds of more than me and 40 years younger

28:57 And I'll go six minutes with them and let's see what happens. Wow. You know, I don't care. So, that's the mentality I take in to work,

29:07 Right? You know, you use the word they're competitive. I think that's something also that has been downplayed in education from when I was a kid. You know, I was competitive in little league and football and basketball and yeah, raetball and then high school. I wasn't good enough

29:23 To make teams, but I was on the on the I played sports all the time, but I was on the competitive debate team and that got me into college and you at a high level. And I think being competitive like that is a healthy thing. It develops discipline, desire. I think longevity and health creates the wealth because if you don't if you're not competitive in your 20s, 30s, and 40s, you're not really going to make it.

29:53 Yeah. You know, and I and I people will say, "Well, he's full of crap." But you know what? The numbers prove it.

30:01 Yeah. The people that are successful have some type of competitive thirst that drives them to exceed the expectations of what people thought of them.

30:14 Yeah. And that's kind of what the pick the niche to be rich mentality comes from.

30:23 Yeah. Specialize in reverse mortgages. Specialize in nonQM loans. Be the differentiator where okay, this is what I specialize in, but I also do FHA, VA, conventional, and jumbo loans, too. So, now that I've done these reverse mortgages and these nonQM loans for you, how about we share a little bit of more of the pie, and I'll do the same thing on your on the other loans as well.

30:47 Nice. Nice. Well, look, I know I've got a little longer here than I signed up signed you up for, so I you know, we can go for hours. You both. I tell people you can wake me up at two in the morning and I can speak about this stuff for hours without any prompting. It's just I and I think that's the key to the people watching who want to get in the niche is find something you enjoy because if you enjoy it stops being the grudgery of work. It becomes challenge

31:14 Or the competition. I want to be the best in my field and I'm willing to put the effort in to do that, but it's kind of fun to compete and as opposed to So, anyhow, look, Steve, for people want to get more of you, I put your website up. Your PRMG is the company.net loan officer/steveheen summerman. And then all his contact information is below on the website. You want to reach out to him. His phone number [phone number]. As he mentioned, he's a branch manager and has a team underneath him of originators. He covers part of the country and has other friends who are other parts. Steve, you know, thanks again for being on the call. I really appreciate always catching up with you and learning from you and the inspiration you have in setting your physical competition as well as your business competition. Thanks so much.

31:57 Oh, thank you very much, Bill. It's just it's just great talking to you and having that opportunity to share what I think is a phenomenal program and even you what you've brought to the world is as far as the probate expert, the reverse mortgage piece. You're inviting people to learn and when you have knowledge is power and power creates wealth and wealth creates happiness and I can't tell you how grateful I am that you had me back on and I would look forward to sitting there and speaking with you again soon and hopefully some of the changes that I talked about especially the proprietary reverse mortgages where you've got from 55 and up there's an opportunity to pull equity out your house and do something cool. Yeah, it's fun.

32:49 And you stayed to the end. I got to tell you a little bit. You know, in the old days, we didn't have online websites and we didn't have Facebook click for ads and Google ads. Steve and I got our business by going out every day, putting on a suit, putting on a tie, walking in with a calculator, an HP12C or some other calculator, stack of business cards, maybe rate sheets, and we went to real estate offices, mono and mono, trying to get past the front desk, meet real estate agents, some cold, some regular. We'd pass each other a couple times. Sometimes agents would pit us against each other. I mean, it wasn't quite jiu-jitsu, but it was pretty competitive.

33:27 It was competitive. And you know what? Once you get past the gatekeeper, which was the receptionist. Yeah. You know, one of my secrets is make the real estate office your office.

33:37 I would sit there and go, "Hey, Wendy, can I just make a quick phone call? I'm waiting for John." Yes. I'm not really waiting for John, but I'm using it. And I'd go in the conference room and I'd be there for an hour and a half. And invariably in that hour and a half, somebody would come by says, "Are you a bill right now? I got a buyer that needs to be pre-al."

33:54 Exactly. And bang, it works. Right. Yeah. Yeah, the Asian would be there and they're like stepping on, you know, I'll do that for you. I'll go conference room. I'll step for and just sitting there looking around for anybody to walk in the door to talk to.

34:05 Yeah. It but the thing I want to say is it was competitive in that you know we wouldn't physically but we would kill each other emotionally or logically or you know in a competitive business sense it was appropriate. And yet we were also friends. We also would

34:20 Shake hands at the end and say hey you know what? Yeah. Got your piece of the pie. I got my piece of the pie. No big deal. Yeah. Yeah. I think and that's the unique thing I think we don't have today. Business has become so anonymous and I'm trying to kind of recreate that on this podcast as I've had originators from, you know, every major reverse mortgage company in the country. And I want to invite, you know, anybody to come on because this is about educating customers and raising the standards of professionalism. And I'm a real estate broker. I'm not a I'm not doing reverse mortgages. I don't get paid by any of this. I do get paid when people refer me probates. I get do I do get people refer me real estate. Has been sold, don't get me wrong, but I'm not doing this to promote my reverse mortgage business. I'm here to promote the concept of reverse mortgages as a tool to help people accumulate wealth. And also, second of all, don't just call an 800 number to some unknown company. Call a professional who's seasoned, reliable, and worthwhile like Steve Sman. So, Steve, thank you again for your time. I really appreciate it.

35:16 Thank you very much. Appreciate the opportunity. And for the rest of you, this is Reverse Mortgage Podcast. I have a new issue comes out every week. We typically interview top originers like Steve to talk about the business, sometimes vendors, but the idea is that every day we want to raise our standards, educate ourselves, and educate our customers on how to increase wealth and achieve their goals. If I can help, I'm Bill Gross at Billgross Propate on social media. As always, reach out if I can help you and make today your best day ever. Thanks so much.