Building a Liability Management Team, with John Thompson of SMPL Mortgage

0:02 When I started this podcast almost nine months ago, I reached out to a couple people and stumbled across really one of the real sages of this industry and who really connected me with a bunch of people I was able to get on as guests. John Thompson who is a CLA and he is a CRMP and CDLP and has a team one of the top reverse mortgage originators in the country as well as runs a team focused on primarily financial management what he calls liability management. John Thompson, thank you for coming back to the program.

0:34 You're welcome, Bill. Thank you. I'm happy back and I'm glad you're continuing to have great inroads into, you know, what I think's one of the best products on the market, the reverse mortgage. Of course, there's a lot of other things we do, but I'm fascinated about it. I have a great passion about it. And to prepare for our time today, I made sure to get my

0:53 Build, you know, mug ready. Wow. Lucky you. Wow. I wish I filled with coffee. So, I'm ready for you. [laughter]

1:01 I wish I could get one of those coffee mugs filled with coffee, but I just have a I just have a plain one. So, [laughter] so let's talk about what is liability management. I mean I know that

1:10 At its core one of your strengths is you focus on reverse mortgages as opposed to forward mortgages but you do it in the context of financial planning and liabilities and a broader picture yet very nearly focused. Talk about what liability management means.

1:25 Well thank you for asking. So liability management is, you know, just a way of really differentiating the work that we do from other mortgage professionals, but I but it's deeper than that because management implies you're taking something, you're managing over time. Most people view both real estate quite frankly and the mortgage as a transaction, right? I want to buy a house. I want to refinance. I want to get a second home. I need to get blind of credit. Whatever that is transactional. They have something in mind. They want to get it done. They hire hopefully professionals and get those things done. We view liabilities and debts and what we'll call the liability side of the balance sheet as very fluid. So I believe the decisions you make early in life, you know, when you're buying your first piece of real estate or first investment property or whatever it might be, those decisions around how you structure that debt, how you allocate money into home equity, how you think about cash flow, all those have a huge impact on your ability to become financially free if that's your goal, right? And live the life you want to live, right? And so we view it a very active, right? It's not a passive approach. We're tracking people's debts. We track, we have clients going back 30ome years now where we talk to them all the time about what's happening from year to year to year. Much like a financial planner would talk about their assets. Are you growing your money? Are you planning for college? Are you planning for retirement? We have the same conversations. We just approach it from the liability side of the balance sheet.

2:49 Tell people reduce their cost of interest and ideally build up the money they put into their asset side. You know, people get in trouble with debt all the time. I tell people, you know, I can't give you $100,000 to start saving for retirement, but I can get you $100,000 in debt very quickly, right? And that's can be a challenge for people because it's so easy to get debt, right? So that's what that's what liability management is. We work hand in hand with financial planners. They manage the assets, we manage the liabilities, and hopefully the two together results in better outcomes for consumers. And because the financial managers are not really equipped, trained, focused or tools really don't deal much with that liability other than give me a number and we want to minimize it, I guess, would be the way they look at yet.

3:33 You know what's fascinating is you know if you really study people very wealthy have large debts. Yes. They just have strategic debts and they use those debts to leverage income ass income producing assets that cover the debt. Right. So Google has I think like $100 billion dollars cash in the bank. They have debt. They just finance all these new

3:54 AI centers using debt because they can use the income to compensate that. So I guess it's kind of in the same light. Now I imagine not all financial planners are on board with that when you first talk to them, right? You meet a client and say,

4:06 "Well, I think you're right. There's different levels of financial advisors planners and I consider a little bit more broad as well because you go into insurance professionals that happen to manage assets. There's CPAs that manage assets and [clears throat] there's estate planners that can kind of get into this too. But in any case, you're right. So most financial advisors, it's again a passive approach. They want to gather money. Their objective is to find clients with money, give them the money that they can ideally manage over time and grow over time and they get paid a piece of that, right? So they don't get paid to manage liabilities. They don't want to think about necessarily. In fact, their default is to have tell clients debt is bad. You don't need debt, right? But at the same time, as you just pointed out, you know, some of the most successful financial people in our, you know, society and culture here in the United States use debt very wisely to help grow assets and grow other kind of things. And we can all do that as individuals. You don't have to be rich to do that. You just need to understand how money kind of works and be smart about it and use leverage, you know, appropriately,

5:07 Right? One of the obviously the one of the key types of debt that can be used or misused is reverse mortgage. So talk about how

5:16 For somebody who has, you know, assets 10 times their primary residence, you know, maybe they have $10 million of assets. They live in a house worth, I don't know, a million dollars or $2 million.

5:27 Why would that person want either a line of credit or reverse mortgage? What's in it for them to even have any debt at all? Sure. Well, I mean, a couple of easy things you can think about is that, you know, taking on, let's just say, using your example, you have lots of money in the bank, you have a good retirement account, you have a house, maybe it's free and clear. But so maybe you don't need any help, but you want to kind of strategically plan for it. So, you have an unused asset. So, people that tend to have money want their assets to do things for them, right? So holding a million dollar home with a no net do no debt on it may feel good but if let's say for you took out a reverse mortgage let's say you took out the simple the reverse mortgage the line of credit now you have it available to you that line of credit as we know and all your you talk about it is growing that line of credit is growing over time now it becomes access to liquidity with no required payment that can be used to purchase maybe other assets or do advanced gifting we've been talking a lot lately about advanced gifting and so the idea that folks, you know, that they want to, they're altruistic. Maybe it's maybe it's an organization, maybe it's our kids or whatever it might be, you know, and so why are you waiting till you pass away to give away some of this stuff and make an impact in the world when you can do it today, but maybe you don't want a payment and maybe you have plenty of money in the bank, you just don't feel like making a payment, right? A reverse mortgage gives that to you, allows you to use that asset to accomplish other kind of things. So, that's kind of one way you might use it. Lines of credit, there's protection. You know, a lot of people long-term care is a big issue for people. People sort of underestimate the amount of money it takes for home care and those kind of things. And a reverse mortgage can be used to solve a lot of those issues again without a payment.

7:06 And that for that many people, that's important. I have a high net worth client who is buying a house. They've never owned a house before because they inherited a large amount of money.

7:16 Yeah. And they probably don't need a mortgage. But I said, you know, I think the advantage for you in a in a getting a mortgage is now you have the banker or the mortgage lender

7:25 Kind of sitting alongside with you checking the property, doing an appraisal, checking insurance, making sure the documents are done right. And there's a certain value and peace of mind. Obviously if you're trying to maximize every penny, it doesn't make sense. But if you're at a stage where your focus is on protecting yourself and growing reasonably after that, then I think reverse mortgage makes in a lot of sense and becomes almost a requirement to have some way to limit the liability on that one property.

7:52 No, that's right. And you in a way it's diversifying assets at the same time, right? So you're taking that asset which is a single thing that large home with a lot of equity and you're turning it as maybe something that can do accomplish other things, right? And so you're diversifying your asset growth. I'll tell you another interesting reason that people are starting to use the reverse strategically for especially for folks that have you know other assets they have capital gains and so forth. People are taking reverse mortgage and making payments on the reverse mortgage which now generates a 1098 interest right so you get an INT because you made interest and you can use that to offset you know taxes due on other you know capital gains and issues right you've sold a piece of property maybe you sold a business or an insurance whatever it might be you sold something and now you have a $50,000 tax bill you can offset that with interest paid on a reverse mortgage now the strategy is not as simple as just making payments every It may be making a large payment every three or four years and making $100,000 $200,000 payment and getting a $50,000 tax deduction because you made all the interest payments right now. That's a more advanced, you know, and we're not a I'm not a CPA. You're not a CPA. I mean, it's the kind of thing that you do in a in a in a select situation, but very creative, very interesting.

9:12 So, we've talked about some fairly deep concepts, right? And you know my thesis my podcast is that we should be doing as an industry 10 times the reverse mortgages we are as a real estate broker I was shocked to find out how many cases people should be at least evaluating reverse mortgage as an option

9:31 And probably 10 times more per between purchases people properties free and clear to limit liabilities maybe not extremely wealthy that's more sophisticated but even a basic person has a house

9:42 Paid free and clear with no cash why not have some cash available But you've taken a step further rather than and then the other thing I noticed as a as a real estate agent is there's you know the mortgage broker or originator who you know focus on something like I get phone calls from great FHA originators or great VA originators.

10:01 I keep their name and number because if you specialize in that it's a whole world. I get phone calls from mortgageators who do FHA, VA, conventional, jumbo, SBA, reverse mortgage, this that the other thing. I know they don't do any of them well because you can barely keep up with any of these things. And you've gone the other level. You've not just focused on reverse mortgages, but you've taken this liability management and you're actually building a team to specifically work with, I believe, financial planners. Yeah.

10:29 To go deeper in that narrow niche of a niche of a niche. Talk about what your strategy there is about building your team. You're not looking just take any originator. You're not a big corporation

10:39 Trying to hire a hundred people who were failed originators to teach them reverse mortgages, though there's nothing wrong with that if you can do it effectively, but talk about taking somebody who's really appropriate to work with financial planners and their clients.

10:51 Yeah. No, thank you very much. I'll go back to what you said about the diversifi all the different products, you know, VA, FHA, HELOC, you know, DSCR, investor, all the rest of kind of stuff. I do think it's challenging for an originator to be able to keep up with the moving guidelines, all those different things. That being said, I do think you need to have a team needs to have access to all those products because we don't know where the clients are going to come from, especi especially when in the financial planning community where there are financial planners that specialize in, you know, people that own car washes, for example, you know, and car washes generate a lot of cash, but you know, you can there's a lot of deductions because there's tax benefits and so you know, there's no income reported, but there's a lot of cash flow, right? Some of these interesting things that you need to be able to help people with financing. So, we've gone deep there. We are slowly adding to our team. I think the mortgage industry is Bill's much of the real estate industry is, you know, unfortunately a lot of people look like you and I, Bill, right? And while that's great,

11:50 Handsome and good-looking and charming. Exact. That's exactly what I meant, right? And so, and we were much better, much h [laughter] handsomemer, was that good-looking 30 years ago, right? And we need those folks to come into the business, right? And they're young, smart, aggressive. It doesn't matter if they're women or men. You know, if you're smart and you want to learn, we want to talk to you. And so we're looking actively looking for what we'll call nextgen originators who want to specifically work in the financial professional space, which could include insurance and estate planners and financial planners, all those folks. And really work beside those folks under liability management. One of the great things about financial planners is that they don't, you know, once they trust what you're doing and you have a good process and you know what you're talking about, they don't need to talk to me every single day. They don't need to have get the update from John, right? They're happy to have a process, a well- definfined process in our business to keep them informed. They don't they don't want the friction of dealing with me. Real estate agents sometimes want to talk to the guy, right? They want to talk to me and that takes more time and effort. So in the financial professional space, you can have a team and you can grow a team of four, five, eight, 10 people and cover multiple states and you don't have to be face to face all the time. And you can give them updates and they just trust you. It's a very different way of doing business and we like it and I think it's a great business for young folks to get into and we're hoping to grow that over the next year or two. You know, I think what you're pointing to, I have a different path I point people to, but they're related, is in my space where I deal with probate and trust real estate, there is a position, a fiduciary. Yeah.

13:31 Now, attorneys can have fiduciary interest or Realtors® have fiduciary interest, but there are professional fiduciaries and California is actually a license for that. And it requires, you know, some sophistication. There's different specialties. There's more kind of hands-on emotional fiduciaries, there's accounting based, there's legal based, there's some kind of coverall. But the but what they do is they're kind of the interface to the human being with all the technology and all the computers. Somebody has to convince somebody to take that chance, that risk, make that movement. And I think in your case, you're doing the same thing by establishing some trust and then leveraging it once you have it over your team. Is that kind of what the focus is?

14:09 Yeah, I think it's a good point because Yeah, you're right. So fiduciaries a very similar model right they have sort of a person that's out front meeting people and bringing you know maybe business in or at least being the figurehead right but then the team does much of the daily work right money management and you're dealing with attorneys and all the other stuff that goes into being a really good fiduciary which is a very complicated job right and I admire those folks but it is in some ways very similar you're absolutely right

14:34 Now I get a lot of real estate agents who either were trained at some program or tell me their strategy is they're going because they want to work with attorneys in my case, like you do with financial planners or adviserss, they're going to get a list and cold call them. And I feel like, yeah, that's the last thing you want to do because for me, if I was a financial adviser and you're cold call me tells me

14:54 You don't have a book of business, you want to look busy. You everybody wants to work with somebody who's busy, right? There's a phrase, hungry dogs hunt best. I want to do with somebody who's so busy,

15:03 They're squeezing me in. I want to slip in 20 bucks to get in line. That's right. Kind of thing. I like that. So, well, I'm just saying I was at a hotel recently and I got a great upgrade on something because I was want to pay some money. But my point is that the relationships are earned. It's not just something that you can coal call in. So, obviously you have a team you have some business already. What are you doing to both develop new trust and then develop what you have more broadly and deeply?

15:30 Well, it's organic really. So, yeah, I mean while we have cold called people, we don't tend to do that very often. If we're doing anything cold is through LinkedIn, maybe primarily in out of states. We're licensed in many western states now and even back in Illinois, Texas, and Florida. So, we're doing more out of state stuff. And of course, you're not on the ground there. So, it is a little harder to meet people. But, you know, you start with the basics. I mean, my clients have advisors, right? They have other professional advice. So, you start with the folks you already know that can make a warm introduction to someone you want to know, right? A very basic thing. The same kind of thing you talk about all the time. And so we leverage our existing clients, we leverage our existing advisors. You know, if I'm in an office, let's just call it an Americ, you know, Joe Smith, you know, I'll ask Joe Smith, can you introduce me to the training manager? Can you introduce me to the owner of the of the business? Can I come in and do a lunch and learn? You know, and so you're slowly expanding it from there. So that's kind of the way that we're organically growing that. And you know, that's why, quite frankly, I want sort of younger next-gen folks because they're going to have more energy than me. They're going to have more desire to go out and do it. And, you know, I, as much as I enjoy doing all that, it's not what I want to spend all my time doing these days. But they can, right? They can spend, you know, 20 hours a week doing that. So,

16:50 You know, I started the business I was a mortgage originator doing forward mortgages. I don't think there [clears throat] were worse than when I started. And my business plan business model was for when I was trained to go into real estate offices and look for Realtors® needed a loan. Well, how often you do that? Well, they're open not quite 247, but they open at 8 or 9 in the morning and they're open till 10 o'clock at night. They're open Saturday and Sunday. And so, I just basically went to real estate offices all day long. So, I had something I had to work on. I go back to the office and work on then go back out and see more offices. So, but you know, you're young and hungry now that you're more established. You probably are the one who they're setting up a phone call or introduction to or you're talking to maybe on a video call or maybe a lunch down the road. Yeah. So, are you actively looking to bring more people in and what does that look like? Where do you where do you find people that you think fit your profile? You know, because I want they're going to represent you in your business.

17:42 Yeah. So, where are you finding those people? You know, it's we're [clears throat] early on, right? So far we've added to the team has been someone that maybe I've had a personal relationship with that I've gotten to know through my sons. I have three sons, you know, 30, 27, 24, as you know, David, my middle son, works with me, right? And so, he's sort of the model of what we're trying to establish. So, if we can photocopy him, right, scan him and make 10 of him, that would be fantastic. He's a pretty unique person, I think, really skilled and so forth. And so, we're using his network to sort of expand out there.

18:15 Nice. And because we're running into younger financial planners now, you know, they're in their 30s and 40s and those kind of things, you know, we're also asking them like who do you send if you have a mortgage opportunity? Who do you send it to and why do you send it to them? Is it, you know, do you trust them? What's the deal? Right? And trying to and because sometimes that person might be a good fit for our team and they just don't have a process they're following, right,

18:39 Right away. Then there's other LOs that are just loan officers, you know, even within our company that's behind us, C2 Financial, that are just trying to find a different way to do business and the language we talk and the process we follow maybe is appealing to them. And we have a when I talk about process, we have a whole liability management process, how we approach advisors, how we talk to them, the languaging, the you'll see the CLA in my tag stands for certified liability advisor. That's actually a designation that someone can earn, not through me, although I'm one of the proponents of it and I do some of the curriculum, but I've been involved with it for 20 years. So, someone can go through that. And then their focus is on advisors and then maybe they want to join our team. And if not, that's great. I'm happy to help them either way.

19:24 So, you're not here to hire hundreds of loan officers to transform the industry, but the industry needs it. It does. You're also affiliated with one of the largest companies and I think one of the better companies in that business C2 Financial.

19:36 I think so too. So they both need to bring in hundreds of people who are in the business to reverse mortgages. They also probably need to transition some people from forward mortgages to reverse mortgages.

19:48 And I know like me, you've seen a lot of people make that, you know, attempt and some kind of half-heartedly and get blown off and half of them plant the flag and make a transition. What do you see as the consistent factors for those who make that transition and build that business

20:06 As a reverse mortgage professional either whether they have no experience or they're a forward mortgage lender? Yeah, that's interesting because there's been many attempts over the last you know 5 10 years for forward originating companies to sort of train their forward loan officers to become reverse certified or whatever it might be. And to the most part, you're it's failed almost miserably and I cannot figure out why. It's been distressing. So even at C2 Financial, we have I don't know 1,100 or 1,200 total loan officers and only about two or 300 of those are reverse will also do a reverse. And even of the ones that will do reverse, about half those only want to do a reverse. And I find a commonality in some of those that only want to do a reverse is that, you know, because the numbers seem to be a little bit larger when you get paid a commission. And that's not always the case, by the way, and it's changing. The margins are shrinking. But, you know, the work you put into these transactions, you know, if you can do 10 transactions a year, for example, and make x amount of money as opposed to doing forward mortgages and have to do 30 transactions, that might appeal to some people, right? Especially if they're in the latter stages of their career. And put that out there. So, and I think it does take more work to say how do we do both of these and how do we do both of them well so that we gain the trust of you know advisers and real estate professionals and whoever you happen to be working with and I think that is a harder thing and it does take unique talent. I wish more people would do it and I do think that the training is getting better. C2 is doing a better job of training more people. There's mentorship programs that are becoming more effective. You see large nationwide companies that are, you know, training because it used to be you just if you have a reverse mortgage lead, just send it into our we have a couple of guys, they'll take care of it and we'll pay you something, right? And that was it.

21:53 Now they're saying, "Look, why don't you learn the product? Have a mentor for three or four or five transactions." Hold on for a second there. Hold on. Learn the product.

22:01 Yes. That's a whole that's a whole technological innovation to most originators right there. Yes or no?

22:10 You're right, Bill. But that being said, I it's not this is not rocket science. We're [laughter] we're not Elon Musk over here. It's a product. It has some unique features to it.

22:20 And if you just study for I don't know. It's like taking the real estate exam. I mean, it's not rocket science. You got to learn the stuff. You learn the stuff and then how do you what do you really learn?

22:29 You get out on the dance floor and you learn it, right? That's how you learn stuff, right? So yes, you got to take some classes and learn. Now C CRMP the certified reverse mortgage professional is a designation in the reverse space that is quite difficult to get. There's only about 200 of us in the nation and that is hard to get. But if you're committ that's like an expertise in the area, not just a fundamental understanding of that's

22:54 That's a whole that's Yeah. But if you want to do it, why not strive for that if you want to be in the business, you know? Yeah. Look, if you're going to be a specialist, at least you should be striving for it. I It takes you a couple years to knock it down and get the experience. And then, you know, the numbers of actual closings are, you know,

23:10 There's a history. There's a number of closings to get you in there in volume, but you can take the classes, you can go to the seminars, you can go to the to the annual convention, your regional convention, whatever. Yeah.

23:19 You know, I was asked to speak as a top producer poo in 199 something by Todd Duncan at his first superstar retreat. Todd's one of the top like coaches back then, the original in the mortgage space,

23:34 Right? And he said, "Tell me something that loaner can do to build their business that doesn't cost much money." I thought about So, you know what they could do? Now, this was the day before you had all regs online.

23:44 Okay. All is like a service with all the No, all regs. Yeah. But in those days, the you had an underwriter in your office and they had books and there was an FHA guideline book called the 4155.

23:54 Yep. And my brother who brought me in the business made me take the book. I went to Kinko's which is now FedEx office. Copied it. He said, "You need to read this book and you need to know everything and not even the whole book because a lot of it was about servicing, collecting payments and things."

24:08 Yeah. Correct. Yeah. So it was only about a third of the book. He said, "But you need to know everything in this section. How you calculate overtime, how you calculate wages, how you calculate salaries, deposits, what counts, what doesn't count, what ultimate documentation." That's your job is to know that book. And I feel like originators who want to learn reverse mortgage, I'm sure C2 or SNPL or some of these organizations have a book.

24:34 Just learn. And you said this and I'm going to jump on that soap box and say just learn the products that you're selling. Well, every single lender in the space, wholesale lender, or even retail lender, I'm sure they have the same thing, you know, has a online training program with videos and stuff and it might take you 10 or 12 hours, but you're going to know the basics. I mean, I didn't I'll tell you. So, I didn't do reverse mortgage for a long time. I closed my first one about 10 and a half years ago now, right? And I fell in love with it. Now I do it. But for 10 years before that, I didn't. I stayed away from them, right?

25:07 You know, like many people, I had this, "Well, I don't really understand it, and maybe it's I've heard bad things about it. Maybe I shouldn't be doing it." And so, you know, I had one adviser, my personal adviser, Merrill Lynch, said, "Look, I really want you to learn it. I have clients are going to need this." And he was looking down the road, right? He said, "They're going to need this, and I trust you. I want you to learn it." And I said, "I don't know." and then an insurance guy that I did a lot of I did some personal loans for him and his company and he goes, "Look, my mom really needs help. She's in a condo down in San Diego and she needs a reverse mortgage and I think I you know and I told I said I don't know what I'm doing. He goes, "Don't worry. Take as long as you need, but I'm only going to do it if you do it." Right? And so I turned it right and it was it was really I it's a weird term to say, but it was life-changing because I also unsure the product because I did it, right? And so the training program and I had to go through the training. I probably I went further than most people. I went 40 probably 50 hours of videos. But that's how you learn it, right? And then start talking to people at it. I'll tell you the other thing about the reverse mortgage business I think that's pretty unique is all of us are willing to be mentors.

26:12 Literally I could get a phone call in 10 minutes from now and say can you help me understand this? And I and I don't care who you are. I would help you. Yes.

26:20 Because I believe that much in the product and that's the way the entire industry is. It really is. It really is unusual. I have to say you're humpset right that people are willing to do it in a way that in other parts because I think you all recognize you need more people.

26:33 Yeah. To help the industry grow. It's not about competing. There's so much business out there. You only have so much time of the day to do address your customers, but you need other people. And again with AI now you can and online you can download the guide book and PDF. You can read it. You can you can put into a scan a chat GPT and summarize it and put in and create a quiz for yourself. You can put in chat GPT and listen to audio version of it. There's no excuse. But you got to learn the product. I do I say this to real estate agents who want to learn probate.

27:03 In California, we have two forms. Have you read the forms yet? No. Well, why don't you start with reading the forms? It has everything in there you need. Really? It's all It's really all right there. And whatever you don't understand, I'm glad to help explain. So, I Okay, I'm going to get that soap box. You're a very sophisticated originary here. I'm talking about some basics. This is my pet peeve. It just drives me crazy on. And I can tell you right now that, you know, lenders are rolling out AI engines left and right? And so the 4155, the handbook you referred to, it's online everywhere. And all you got to do is go type in a question and say, "Teach me about reverse mortgages. You're right. Condense it down to one page, right?" I mean, it's going to happen instantly. I mean, it's there's never been a better time to learn something new than

27:46 Never. Never. You know, I have my to-do list every day. I learn spend 30 minutes on automated on artificial intelligence. I've been doing this about six months now where I just either have something that I do that I should try

27:58 Or I have nothing to do and I'll just try to learn on some other tool. And it's amazing. You spend three minutes a day on something, you get better and better and better at where things come out and go, "Wow, look what I just did." Like that's crazy.

28:10 And I think reverse mortgages is the same thing. There's so much available. It is. I've been talking about AI now for probably almost two years, right? My coach, you built an AI presentation. I took it adapted to my own form style. I started talking about it and I've probably done I don't know 15 different public presentations. I was just on a panel last week in Chula Vista down in San Diego with three other people literally talking about AI to small businesses and that kind of stuff. And because I like talking about it and it's you just got to spend time with them. They ask me, well, how do you start? You start with what you just said, Bill. Spend 15 30 minutes a day every single day for the next two months,

28:47 Right? You will be you'll know more than 99% of the people in the world. So yeah, it is amazing what's available. And I again I haven't looked specifically on reverse mortgages or mortgages because I'm a real estate agent, but just simple things that we do that and here's the other part that leverages my experience and skills. So I know a little bit and I put that little bit in. Now I'm taking what chat might do that looks a little goofy and it go oh you know this well let me let me talk more about that and all of a sudden my knowledge becomes more valuable and that's the key is if the robots can replace us we're all in trouble. I don't believe any robots replace me in my niche and

29:24 No I don't I don't think so either. I don't have that fear at all. No but I do fe I do fear people are going to fall behind because they're not paying attention. That's a different conversation. So

29:33 Yeah that's a different conversation. And again, I also feel like as the AI grows, the thing that we have to be focusing on, the two things are one, niches, really being very hyperfocused because

29:45 These machines eat up information, but they just don't get the specifics of these niches as well as humans still can because you spend the time on it.

29:55 I think the second is the human interaction. All these things are designed to free us up to talk to each other more. It's amazing to me. Exactly. Have more. Okay, this must be and okay, I'm going to I'm going to call I want to call it by name. So, somebody on this podcast was in a city that I needed to refer a $2.8 million buyer to. I called the and he referred me to a mortgage agent. I'm sorry, to a Realtor®.

30:15 And the Realtor® when I called and left a voice message and texted and emailed, I got back like a text answer that was obviously some sort of chat robot. Now,

30:26 I don't expect anybody to be available 24/7. But when I start taxing, I really I realize this is just kind of goofy. It's just not real human. Doesn't feel right.

30:35 Doesn't feel right. But I'm thinking of all things to automate talking to a prospective referral source. [laughter] Like there's one thing that I have all day to do. If you want to meet a list of probate property in Los Angeles, California, the country, yeah, everything else will go on hold. You know, honey, [laughter] hold the door. Tell the FBI I'll be there, you know, tomorrow. Stop the fire engines. I'm on the phone trying to list a property with a with a attorney or fiduciary, but somehow real estate agents and mortgage originators feel like they want to automate talking to their customers.

31:09 Well, and I'm a big fan of automation, but it's the automation after the transaction is going that I'm interested in. Right. They that was one of the panel questions asked me. They said, "What do you want to automate?" I'm like, "I want to automate everything except for the human interaction." Right. So

31:22 Exactly. [laughter] That's the one thing I don't want to automate. Facebook wants to automate me out of business. They can't. Google wants to automate me out of business. They can't. I don't automate myself out of business. That just seems insane.

31:33 That seems really seem really silly, right? So, yeah. You write the best chat GP in the world and then all of a sudden Google writes a better one. That just means you're out of business. So, why would you why would you compete with that?

31:43 Okay. Well, you and I can get on the soap box for a while. I think that we I we've got our the time scheduled. I really appreciate your generosity, both of your time. And I know you've had a couple podcasts and spirit if someone wants to get a hold of you. I have here let's see the web page has your smplgage.com team

32:02 And then we'll put on the also on the board we'll put oops I lost my spot there. The fancy border there has your email, your phone number. Best way to get a hold of you there.

32:12 That's fine. That's perfect. Thank you. And feel free anybody who's watching this to reach out to me if I can help. I'd be more glad to pass on John's information. He's been a great fan of the program. I want to say really one of the foundational partners helping me get this thing launched. You made some great introductions along the way. I really appreciate you, John. You're a real I appreciate you as a professional and I appreate appreciate you as a friend. Thanks so much for all you've been doing for us.

32:31 You're welcome, Bill. And thank you for everything you do. I mean, you're getting the word out around reverse mortgages not even something you do, but you know it's important and so I love it and thank you. Keep doing all the great work you're doing. Thank you.

32:40 You just want another coffee cup so you're sucking up to [laughter] Okay. Hey, thanks so much. And for the rest of you, this is Reverse Mortgage Podcast. We get together and issue a new episode every week mostly with top originators of reverse mortgages, sometimes managers, vendors and such so we can all do our jobs better where we work with reverse mortgages or originate them. We want to raise that ship. We want to raise that tide so everybody rises up and then also help our customers. So if I can help anyway, please reach out. I'm at Bill Gross Probate on social media.