Preparing Before the Reverse Mortgage, with Brian Bailey, CRMP

0:01 So, as a real estate broker, my focus is often on probate, which is kind of once the cows get out of the barn, how do you get them back in? In estate planning [clears throat] is preparing ahead of time. Reverse mortgages kind of affect both because you can do a mortgage to the individual borrowers or do it without a plan and then you have a mess in your hands if something happens or plan ahead of time. And Brian Bailey, who's a certified mortgage professional, understands the importance of at least doing what you can to prepare ahead of time. So, Brian, thanks for coming back on the program. Well, thanks for having me, Bill. Appreciate it.

0:31 Let's talk about the importance of preparing. I mean, obviously you know, somebody calls you call them, they want a verse mortgage, you can write it up, but along the way, you might notice the own title in their names, not in a trust or something along those lines. What is the importance that you want to look for before you write the mortgage, make sure they're prepared for what their goal is,

0:51 You know? I think as far as it being in a trust, it's not really too big of a deal on our side. We just need to know if it is in a trust whether it's revocable irrevocable and then if that's the way the client intends to close in that in title with that the problem has been coming up at least in my experience and I haven't talked to the other CMPs in regards to this but I think I think four out of the last five reverses that I've had have had dementia issues.

1:25 Ouch. Bad. I don't know what's going on. I've just seen a se serious uptick in that on my in my book of business and what I've been seeing. And those have had POAS involved. And the problem that can arise is it when the underwriter is looking at it, they want to make sure that a senior h isn't take being taken advantage of. Like kids aren't coming in or someone's coming in and saying, "Okay, well, now we're going to make all these financial decisions and bleed the senior dry, you know, without them even realizing what's happening." so obviously we can kind of see what the lender is doing on that. And also they're kind of watching out for themselves because if it if a lawyers get involved and someone's suing somebody, you know, they just have to make sure all their ducks are in a row. So, what I'm finding is that if clients, you know, especially like a husband wife situation or even if it's a solo senior with their kids or whoever, having the POA set aside or put together ahead of time so that way if and when anything ever happens, then they're it's kind of smooth sailing like look, the person was of sound mind when they initiated the POA and then any kind of forms of dementia or you know, heaven forbid whatever else it could be comes into play. It's understood due to doctor's letters and such. If that makes

2:55 So it seems like we Yes, we live at an intersection of a couple things. One is people living longer physically. So second, dementia seems to be more common.

3:07 Maybe it's because of chemicals or drugs or something. Who knows why? But it seems like more percentages. I also think third people are more heightened to it and fourth with more money you're going to have more litigation and it's just one more vector to attack a transaction if there's an heir who feels that they're entitled to property and so increasingly this is becoming important issue. So

3:28 Now like me though you're not charged with really making that determination but you are charged with noticing if you deal with somebody if something doesn't look right.

3:39 Exactly. We can't ever as a loan officer, we're not allowed to not take an application. You know, we're supposed to take the app. The underwriters are the ones who underwrite the loan and det make the determination at that point in time. But as loan officers, we are, you know, instructed to kind of keep an eye on something if we feel like there's something fishy going on or whatever. It's our due diligence to make that known to underwriting. But in the reverse space, thankfully there is another aspect of it. They go through the HECMs counseling and the counselor goes through and they answer their questions and they're making the determination. There's sometimes where people maybe they have dementia, but you know it's a delayed de dementia if that's a thing. I don't know. But like you know on a day-to-day basis they can they can handle they understand what's going on. They're fully within their wits. It's just that maybe they won't remember tomorrow or next week what had transpired. So you know it's just a whole bunch of different things that can kind of come from that. And then at closing, if they feel if title, whoever the notary is, if they feel like this person really doesn't know what's going on as they're being explained to, they, you know, that can throw up red flags. So, I've had situations where people are trying to slip stuff by me.

5:08 You know, I find out there's a POA involved in the in the middle of the transaction and, you know, something pops up and they're just trying to slip it by and that doesn't do anybody any good. We just need to know what we're doing with upfront, you know.

5:25 Having gone through this with a family member, I know also sometimes seniors go in and out of cognition, right? You might see them real commonly in the morning outside, fresh air, sunshine, they're a little more with it, and then as they get closer to dinner time, my experience was they would slow down physically and then that would also slow down mental capacity. And so some you meet with them for an application or for my case a listing,

5:53 You know, at 2:00 in the afternoon or one in the afternoon, they seem normal, but the reality is they're not really all there. And you know it's a debate whether or not that's binding but nobody wants to be in a debate like that. So we're going to turn to professionals where we can

6:08 And in your case the protection that's new is the counseling being required. So talk explain a little bit more. You know, if I if I said to you and I'm in perfect I hope perfect cognition today and I'm ready to move for reverse mortgage. I can't just meet at your office or online sign documents put a loan in place. There's a process we have to go through even besides the paperwork, the appraisal, the escort, the title. There's a counseling process. Talk a little bit what that looks like physically for a client.

6:32 So typically what happens is I get a referral or a client reaches out. We go through, we collect the certain information and it's pretty minimal to get a proposal together and then I package the proposal, present it, and if the client chooses to go forward, I've arranged my proposal to have the HECM counseling documentation up top. Very easy for them to access. And then from there the they ha have a list of national providers that can do it over the phone and then a certain amount of local providers. Now local is a very loose term I've seen because if I have a deal in Yuma or Havsu that local could be Phoenix, San Diego, Vegas, you know, there's not a lot of counselors and they have to give them so many. But they can do the counseling over the phone and in that the counselor kind of goes through uses the proposal that I gave them. They have access to it with a code. They go through and kind of explain to the customer and do kind of it's a third party. They're approved by HUD. They're going to just make sure that I'm not a s a snake oil salesman. Making sure that you know I didn't promise you know that leprechauns are going to jump out of the product. You know that it's a legit product and that was presented to them correctly and that they truly understand what it is that the product can do and can't do and just like as a safeguard they have no interest in it. They're just making sure that everybody's on the up and up. So it's a third party system.

8:13 Now the I've seen you know I would call two different types of power of attorney. One would be they're taking over. They're in lie of they're really your customer, though they're power of attorney for the borrower. It could be a child. It could be an attorney, a professional, but you're just going to deal with them. They're going to do the b the business. And I also see power of attorney where more commonly, I think that's a child where they still want mom or dad involved in the process,

8:45 But they're but mom and dad aren't signing, they're signing for them as private attorney. Do you see that in the counseling? And does a council accommodate kind of, you know, multiple parties or is it just one?

8:54 So, what I find is, you know, a lot of times I don't know, you know, I don't know what their intentions are or they didn't tell me their intentions upfront. So, the power of attorney kind of comes up later on. Then I have to go back to the counselor and say, "Hey, I needed to add this person on. Were they counseledled with you?" and the counselor will say because the counselor will note who's kind of in the room with them at when they do the counseling. But I need them to state it on the counseling record accordingly. You know, John Smith, you know, power of attorney in fact for Jane Smith, you know, and such. So, it does need to be annotated on the Hecken counseling sheet. How it's being laid out. That does have to match what the loan docs are going to be. So there's that. In the situations where there's like full, you know, full control, like you were saying, that's usually when the client's not even really there or if they're there, they're not understanding what's happening, right?

10:00 The counselor may I'm not sure if they do this, but they may be asking, "Are they there?" you know, kind of to have an understanding of what the situation is.

10:11 But if somebody says they have a POA, I just got done doing one out in California where they the POA was set up, the mom had a really quick set of dementia. She had gotten I mean through some vaccinations, she found that she ended up with like some lung thing. It wasn't COPD, but it was stage 4 something and it was bad where she had to be on oxygen. Well, she went outside to check the mail. And inside going outside to check the mail, she didn't take her oxygen. She tripped. She fell. She was without oxygen for too long. Dementia went from point A to point Z really fast. And but we had just gotten they had just gotten everything set up. So, we were within three months of things happening. And they were in California and dealing with Kaiser Permanente. That was fun. You know, that was that was that was interesting because and this is another aspect is in when people are setting up a trust, don't you know, I would say if I was setting up a trust today, I would tell the them don't make two doctors necessary to sign off on any kind of medical thing. One doctor's fine. There's no reason your loved one should have to go deal with two doctors. And I think that's kind of something that the attorneys just do naturally. And it makes sense, you know, it does make sense, but I just don't know how entirely necessary it is because that two doctor thing just made things a complete nightmare. Now, that was dealing with, you know, bureaucratic involvement in a large insurance health care system. You know, if you're small town, you just go down and you know, there you can talk to the doctor very easily and that's fine. But, just something to keep in mind.

12:06 So power of attorney obviously if it's in place and you have a process to handle that. Yep. One of the one of the questions I always have and I don't have an answer. I just curious your feedback. You meet with a client who is otherwise perfectly healthy [clears throat] and owns a property and wants to do reverse mortgage here in California where probate really is very expensive and tedious and owns property in their personal name or maybe their husband and wife in their name not in a trust no evidence of an estate plan you know I'm really on a campaign to get everybody to put a plan together but I imagine doing it while you're also applying for a reverse mortgage whether it's a purchase or refinance at some point just the paper starts to pile on further and further and further and it gets to be harder for the customer. So some people have a mind to say yeah let's get started on it and you know at least we'll have the trust name to title property and the reverse mortgage is done with an insured deed we'll get it done at some point or other people say no let's follow up afterwards and get the mortgage done if that's what they need the money for. Where you stand on that process.

13:18 I don't know. I think doing two things at the at the same time in that situation, I don't know if that's ever a good a good idea. Yeah. I'd say if you're doing the reverse and you're already in process of it, just going ahead and finish the reverse, get that in place, and then you can always quick claim deed the title of the property into the trust. Doesn't really matter what the loan's under. Whether it's under both of their names or a single name, it doesn't really I don't think it really affects the inner workings of how the property is owned. You know, we have non-borrowing spouse. You know, they're not allowed to be a borrower because say they're 55 years old, they're not 62. So maybe they're going to be on title, but they're not going to be on the loan. Doesn't matter. So it's nice that we can close the loan in the trust, you know, and if somebody wants to do that's great. But I don't think it has any real bearing whatsoever because with the reverse, you have six months, you know, in a situation where both borrowers pass away or the last b last surviving member of the of the loan, even on a non-borrowing spouse situation has spousal protections, they're still covered. You know, they but once that's both borrowers have passed away or borrower and non-borrowing spouse pass away, the loans come and call and do. They got six months to get things figured out. And so I don't I just don't see where that has a bearing. So I would just go ahead and close the loan and then get and make sure in the meantime you could be working on that on that trust.

14:59 So let's change topic a little bit to kind of general things about reverse mortgages. I know you're one of the most long-standing and serious reverse specialists I've worked with and we've been this our third podcast together. So, I know you pretty well. Let me just throw a couple misconceptions out real quick because whether you're a borrower looking at a reverse mortgage or you're professional who has to deal with customers, explain these things. There's a lot of misconceptions more about reverse mortgages I think than anything in real estate. So, let me go the first one, which is don't get a verse mortgage because you'll leave the debt to your heirs.

15:36 Yep. Yeah. No, that's not the way it works. It's a non-reourse loan. So, what happens is at the when the loans called due because the they're not living in the house due to whatever reason. That could be living in assisted living, whatever the case may be, or passing away. When that day comes, they are going to call the loan due, and in six months, you have to you have to either liquidate the house, the loan's going to get paid off accordingly, and any of that money is going to go to the heirs or the trust or however the estate is planned out if it's planned. And then from there, you know, it's going to be handled accordingly. If the loan is, let's say, it's very hard for this to happen right now, but if it did happen where, let's say the market just tanked and rates, you know, and the loan was higher than what the house is worth, there's a nonreourse feature on heekums that allow that to that money gets washed. It gets it gets eaten up by the by the program and that helps have protections for the heirs in that in that case. So a lot of times when they're like worried about the mortgage insurance that's what's the mortgage insurance is paying for that's protecting you. And then what's really cool too that a lot of people don't understand is the idea that let's say your house is worth 300 but you owe 400.

17:12 The heirs can choose to buy the house back at 90% appraised value. So let's say they pass away that 400 they can actually buy it for the 300 minus 30. So they can buy it for 270,000. In Arizona, California maybe not as big of a deal, but say a lot of the Midwest or East Coast people who do have generational homes, you know, that the kids want to maintain that home that they lived in growing up and such, you know, that's a big thing. You know, that's huge. I mean, who else is doing that? Where else can you get something like that where you can buy a house for guaranteed, you know, 10% equity, you know, position right off the bat?

17:58 Now, I think the misconception or the myth comes from the original reverse mortgages where they would lend up to 80% of the value of the property and then 2008 when housing values went down, there were people upside down. There's still some those loans on the books where the borrower lives so long that the they are upside down. But the new loans being done today given loan to values it's almost mathematically historically impossible to be upside down and even still there is a provision you talked about but I think that myth is really there were many foreclosures when it was upside down from the original loans done but I don't think there's any there done during the reformat.

18:37 Well, I think I think that's another hard part is because of the foreclosure concept. The term foreclosure is so negative and so like, you know, like people freak out,

18:47 But a lot of time and when you look at reverse mortgages, the foreclosure rates super high. It's not because people are losing their homes. They're not even making payments on the home. It's because when somebody passes away and they can't contact the heirs or there are no heirs, they have the lender has to go through a legal proceeding called foreclosure in order to get to get the legal position to liquidate that house so they can recoup their costs and then whatever money is left over goes to the heirs or goes to the estate accordingly. You know that and that's why if there's nobody there like you need to have a plan set up which is kind of the point was you need to have something set up or your intentions put down so that way people know what to do with your estate once you pass away and you're going to give it to the church then give it to the church or to Bob across the street just maybe not your dog though I mean I don't know how that works [laughter]

19:45 And I think people you can leave your dog I've seen that you know I literally got the phone with somebody who would have said, you know, my parents had a reverse mortgage is going to forclosure. Well, what they left out was that mom and dad, you know, didn't have an estate plan. Mom and dad died over six months ago and they've been living there for free. They left out that they probably got numerous letters from the reverse mortgage lender saying, "Hey, because the reverse mortgage lender gets notified upon death, they have a social security number and they get those records."

20:16 So, I've been getting letters for six months, ignored those. Then in this case, they actually filed a notice of default and ignored that for 90 days. And now they're calling an attorney in a panic because they're facing foreclosure. So I think the proper, you know, plan is if you have a reverse mortgage, make sure that people are going to inherit your property. There's a plan in place of some sort. If there somebody living there, let them know, hey, once we're done, you can't live here forever for free. They're going to call the loan due, and here's what we're going to need to do in order to effectuate that. Either follow probate or here's an estate plan to do that. So, I think that's where

20:50 I think that's where it comes from is the lack of planning. They think they're going to lose the house and they will. You know, if you die, you're going to lose your house. That's part it's part of the program unfortunately, but you can leave it to your heirs if you do something or they do something pretty modest, I think, ahead of time.

21:06 And that's why I find it very important. A lot of people ask, you know, what part of the misconceptions that you're talking about, you know, or I get my because I run the reverse division for Patriot Pacific and I get a lot of my loss asking me like what is the most one of the popular things that people fight back on and a lot of the concern is the kids, the kids getting involved and worried about their inheritance and such. And

21:33 You know, I don't run into that very much. I'm sure it's happening a little bit here or there behind the scenes. I never I mean very rarely do I hear it verbatim like people are telling me that. But I think more so the kids get involved because they're a little concerned that their parents are being taken advantage of. So I mean I every proposal I do I try to get the kids there. I try to get whoever's involved, you know, whoever they're if they've got a CPA, a financial planner, if they've got anybody involved whatsoever in the decision-making process or wondering if this is a good product, I want to talk to them. I want them to hear it from the horse's mouth that what this product can and can't do, get over those popular misconceptions and for people to see, you know, maybe take a little bit of that mystique out of the product. And for them to feel comfortable because I tell them I want them to know I want them to have my card. I want them to call me if and when something does happen to you know, I want them to call me. I'll walk them through. I already made my commission. It's like I have no bearing on it. Whatsoever. But I'm an L for life. I want you to come to me and let's help get you through the servicing and you know, you can't hide from you can't hide from this. You can't have them pass away and just think that nobody will know

22:57 Right for infinity. That's not going to happen. They get notified. You have six months. You have up to two, three month extensions that can be done as long as you're making a serious effort by listing the property or refinancing and such. But, you know, you have to communicate with the lender. You can't hide from them.

23:17 Yeah. I find the extensions, at least in California, I don't see those being granted anymore. There was a time No. And the mortgage the deeds say that the lender may give an extension, but also pigs may fly.

23:28 Pigs don't fly in California and you're not going to get extensions in California. That's my experience seeing scores of these loans. Yeah. And I think that you if I had a magic wand and I was in charge of the reverse mortgage programs across the country, of course you are maybe for your company, I would make two requirements. One is I know there's an annual form filled out by the borrower that confirms this still their primary residence and some other facts. It's just really are you still alive? You still there? And then second, I think that I would ask the question at that time, so you know obviously this loan's good until you pass. Do you have a plan in place for when that happens and who's in charge of that and do they know what to do? And I think if you can have that question ahead of time that person becomes your prospective new customer. And just to go back to something you said before, I think when children get involved, I think originators, you know, get concerned when they say, "Well, you're eating my equity." I think that's a reasonable question to ask. And it's not so much that they're objecting to the process as they want you to tell them, hey, how does this really benefit me as well as my father? Maybe the answer is it benefits your father so much and it won't help you that much other than helping your father. Okay. Or what helps you too because by doing this there's more left over. Okay, great. But I think sometimes those questions from the children that come across as attacks are really just, you know, comfort me, help me understand what this works like. Help me understand that my father's not being taken advantage of other or both. And assure me and show me some verification that you know what you're doing. And if we answer these questions professionally, we're prepared to handle them, I think we're fine. I think when loan officers get defensive and expect things to go smooth, that is smooth. Smooth is when the customer asks you a lot of questions, point of questions, because they want to know the answer.

25:21 Yep. Smooth. What's not smooth is nobody has any questions and they call you up in two days and say, "We're not interested." And you have no idea why. You don't know where wires got crossed. Exactly. And that's not good. That's not doing anybody any good.

25:36 It's an extra phone call. I love I mean my favorite page out of the proposal is the amorization schedule. Let me show you what your house is going to do in value at a projected 4% over the next, you know, so long. And this is a historical 60 years across the nation. This is what the average is. This is what HUD wants us to use. And we know they're conservative on their numbers. So, let's use the 4%. This is what your house is doing. Here's how the loan will perform. Right now, you're sitting on $300,000 of equity. And 18 years from now, you still have $300,000 worth of equity. Like, you know what I mean? Like, yes, you're going to lose a little bit in inflation, but in the meantime, your parents got to sit there and live there with no principal and interest payment, and you know, they got to buy a cabin up north or they bought an RV or, you know, whatever the case may be, enhance their income, whatever the numerous reasons for somebody to use reverse. Yeah. But, you know, and when you when you can get people in front of the numbers, that's where that's where everything comes up. I have a wonderful presentation I do for financial planners and CPAs, but especially financial planners, they love it because it shows on their side, it's part of the coordinated withdrawal strategy that Dr. Wade foul helped put together and it shows where by using the reverse in estate planning you know not we're not talking about people who you know oh no you know the sky is falling and I don't want to be a greeter at Walmart where it's great for them too because it changes their life you know but it also can be used by the mass affluent you know who have plenty of equity and plenty of assets but instead of depleting their 401 401ks, IRA, annuities, whatever the case may be, they can, you know, when the market's bad, they can take it from the from the reverse. And then that helps, you know, when you see it both for the for the consumer, like this is what their numbers look like, the heirs, because this is what their numbers look

27:39 Like, and then the financial planner, what their numbers look like. It's win-winwin for everybody in that situation. And you hate saying win-win because nothing's win-win, but it really they're after 10,000 some Monte Carlos that they did with this coordinate withdrawal strategy, it passed every single one of them. That's amazing. Something that people really need to take into account.

28:02 Well, because you're taking something that's illquid and making it liquid, you have more options. More options almost always gives you more I think we talked about that last time. The power of flexibility in your toolbox and it's not often you have a

28:12 You know flexible you know putty that you can put anywhere and make it work but really this becomes that to some people so you know kind of moving towards the end here because you are in a leadership position you know where I sit

28:25 As an industry we should be doing about 10 times reverse mortgages that we are but for the stink of the past reputation which we have to you know remove that one person at a time and the lack of understanding the product both by the consumer consumers and by the practitioners.

28:41 The consumers only see an ad on TV, which I think is misleading at best and kind of slimy [clears throat] in some regards. And yet there's obviously a need for certain types of mortgages. But like you say, the financial planning is more sophisticated, requires a more sophisticated originator, more sophisticated presentation. And at the same time, we have an industry of Ford originators who are just for the most part, the top 10% are doing great. The next 10% are surviving. And 80% are flailing. They're licensed through this product. And so you have this pool of people, you know, is the next generation of reverse mortgage originators going to be one or two% of that group that take on this opportunity. Or will be people outside who have more customer service or financial background and move into this business. Where are the next originators going to come from to help service what I see just an insatable need for more help?

29:36 Yeah. You know, there's a there was a recent move of a large brokerage here. They have moved away from the platform of having their forward or their loan officers being reverse certified and went more towards the model of like letting anyone do a reverse and kind of leaning heavily on the AES and different people to help them through the product. And I had one of the lenders sit down with me when we were at the Nurmala event in San Diego, kind of told me about it and said, "No, hey, consider this." And I'm like, "No." Because I kind of modeled my system after what I had gone through when I, you know, when I got certified at that at that broker. [snorts] And I'm like, "No, I like that. I like that it takes you need to understand the product. You need to understand its pinch points and stuff and how to properly present it and how to properly use the tools, the software and to really know what you're doing on that point. And then once you've done that, now we can work together handinand. I'm not going to just send you off to one of the AEES to do it. No, I'm gonna I'm gonna walk you through it and give you pointers on whether that's pricing or that's, you know, overcoming objections or all that. I think it's necessary and maybe that does keep us from expanding to percentages that need to be higher. I don't know. I think at the end of the day, the average person is gonna take the path of least resistance, like electricity. It's going to take the path of least resistance. And when people are trying to buy houses, it's easy. It comes right at you. When people want to refi, they pick up the phone and they call you. Reverse is a different is a different animal. It's kind of like the financial planning CPA animal where you need to educate people on what they're doing. You need to help them understand what the product is and the vast

31:40 Array of inner workings of it. And with that, I think a lot of people just don't like or don't want to be challenged with that. And I don't think you're ever going to get to that point if you don't make it a practice. If you don't if you decide reverse is going to be part of my quiver. I want I want that arrow in my quiver. Then you will take the time necessary. It's kind of like VAS. VAS have enough nuances that it's not like your standard conventional or FHA loan. You've got to understand the inner workings of the VA and so with that you just do it accordingly. I don't know I don't know what is going to take the idea for the forward guys to get more involved. I wish they would. It's I struggle with it. I struggle trying to encourage them to do it and I get them signed up and then like to get them to kind of finish it is always a always a task. But it's this business, you know, Realtors®, loan officers, title people, it's like hurting cats at times, you know, it just can be it just but I think that's in every aspect. It's always the 8020 rule. 20% to get 80% of the of the of the business done.

32:54 You know, I heard Tony Robbins say talk about the proto principle famously 8020 and he said it's no longer 8020, it's now 9010 or 955

33:02 That the top 5% get all the rewards. And I think to anybody who's watching, if you're an originator or considering getting in this space, I'll just tell you my story. Six years ago, I had to relaunch my career in sales and I went all in on a niche and I've been on a pursuit to master that niche in my market area and I learn every day. I meet people every day and learn more, but I know more than almost all my competitors of the niche that I work in. And as originator, I see an unlimited runway in the reverse mortgage space. But you got to commit to it. You got to learn it. You have to work with the right people, be mentored by the right people, have the right procedures. There's no shortcut. The shortcut is the hard extra work. And but I just see this as such a tremendous opportunity. And Brian, I know you do some leadership. And I think you're a great stop for somebody who's interested in that spot to at least stop and make an assessment. Hey, is this for me or not? But if you're going to go with Brian, he's like me. He's kind of old school. There's no fooling around. Like you got you got to do the work. You got to lift the weights and run the track. There's no shortcut to being fast or strong other than the work. So Brian, I just appreciate, you know, your time with me today. I know that people can reach you at reversefinanicial.com is the website and then we have your contact information as well. So if somebody's interested in either getting reverse mortgage or professional who has clients to talk to you about an assessment or an origin looking to make a career change, this the best way to get in touch with you?

34:27 Yep. Yep. Just give me a [phone number]. That's my cell phone. I mean, it's right here. Call me. I'm all ears. I'm willing to work with anybody on that. I try to be as approachable as possible with all of it and try to take the mystique out because I think that's part of the problem is there's just too mystique. Doesn't need to be doesn't need to be that complicated, but it does require some focus and attention and I'm willing to hold anyone's hand through that and get people going. So,

34:58 Fantastic. Well, I appreciate your time today and previously as well. And what you do going forward. Thank you so much. Well, thank you, Bill. Thank you for this podcast and everything that you're doing to spread the word.

35:07 Well, thanks. And the rest of you, this is the Reverse Mortgage Podcast. We have a new episode every week, usually with mortgage originators, sometimes managers, sometimes vendors, to learn how to better serve our customers, whether it be we're a Realtor® or attorney or mortgage originator. If I can help at all, obviously you can reach out to Brian directly. If I can help, reach out to me at Bill Gross Probate. If you like this, subscribe, send me a note. If you want to be interviewed on this, send me a note as well. If I can help in any way.