How to Drive Production, with Shain Urwin of C2 Financial

0:02 Welcome to the Reverse Mortgage Podcast. If you watch past episodes, you know I love to have people who are actually doing the business. We also like to get an occasional management to give us kind of a 10,000 ft view as to what's happening in the industry where I believe we should be doing 10 times as much business as we are. Today, we're going to talk about how to drive production with a guy who I met him, I decided he was just a guy doing loans and a lot of them and doing them well. It turns out he also is a national director at C2 Financial, national production director at C2 Financial, as well as on the National Reverse Mortgage Lenders Association Board of Directors and Education Committee. So, he's a big muckety-muck. Yet, today's episode was delayed a bit cuz he was at a closing with a customer. And so, if you know me, it's all about the customers. If you're doing the deals, you know what's going on. If you don't do the deals, and you did them 10 years ago, you may be out of touch. A guy who's not only not out of touch, but helping drive better practices and better production in this business, Shannon Irwin, C2 Financial. Welcome back to Reverse Mortgage Weekly podcast. Thank you, my friend. Glad to be back. So, we want to talk about I think it surprised me to hear that the issue that people want to talk about is more production. And I think it's true. You know, my thesis of this podcast was we should be doing 10 times as many as we are in that everybody who owns a house free and clear should at least look at a reverse mortgage. Maybe they won't get it, but should at least look at it. Most don't. Anybody buying a house all cash should look at a reverse mortgage. Again, not all should get one, but they should at least look at it.

1:24 That's not happening for lack of education and publicity of the product. What do we do to drive more production? How do we get originators to drive more business to help change the attitudes so customers have a chance to benefit from this product? Well, we all added, you know, you keep doing the same thing as expecting different results. That's the definition of insanity. And that's where we're at when it comes to the reverse mortgage space. We If you look at the number the HECM numbers, the home equity conversion numbers, the FHA product, we're down. We're down significantly from our peaks back in '07. We continue to trail them. There's a few companies having success and they're really churning last year's, you know, the refine. You know, all the I don't know. I don't want to con- you know, say they're all churning, but a lot of them are. They're just churning the same people over and over. And the new growth is either in the age for peace section, which is, you know, the purchase home buying section of the business. And then obviously traditional loans with traditional refinancing of a regular mortgage. Maybe even free and clear their homes taken out. The pioneers of the space are working in the financial industry field with financial advisors, CPAs, attorneys, some Realtors®, but really the breakthrough that I've been seeing in a lot of our top loan officers in the country have been seeing is working with the financial advisors. And there's a lot of education and conversation about it, but a lot of loan officers, they feel that I think that's daunting. Like, I don't even know where to begin. Right.

2:56 Well, I think that business takes a lot more to get in the door because there's a like a price of admission higher than just running an ad on a with the 800 number on some stupid cable commercial. That's easy to do. It's hard to get in the door and get a referral, but when you get one from a financial professional, from an attorney, from an estate planner, they come stronger. Like, the customer comes in believing you, trusting you more. And also, they have a lot of documentation that can help you with that. They also are advising the customer. So, talk about the difference in the work involved in getting in the door initially. That's really where the I guess the biggest challenge is for most originators. It is. It's like, what I don't know what to say or I think I'm going to mess up. And the advisor, you know, they feel like they're not qualified to talk to that group of people, if you will. So, you are getting in the door, first of all, it's not as difficult as you think. I just flew in, got back from doing event last couple days. I was down in Pasadena, California with our friend John Thompson doing event to financial professionals. We did one last year, we did another one this year, and we had about 70 financial professionals in the room. And when we're giving a class like that, we keep it very low level. The whole point of the class, the whole point of that is to get the follow-ups, the one-on-ones. So, the answer to your question is to get one-on-ones, don't you don't have to go out there and be profound and come up with some amazing pitch or sales pitch. It's simply giving the financial advisor, let's say for an example, a little bit of a nugget to say, "Let's look at what you've been doing already, what you're doing well, and how I, as a retirement mortgage specialist, can come alongside you and help your clients when they have needs." And don't focus on reverse mortgages. Don't lead with reverse mortgages. First of all, there's a couple reasons why. You don't want to come in and talk to a financial professional and just throw up a bunch of information on them and go into presentation mode. Cuz what happens is they're going to tune you out pretty quickly. A lot of them already have their own preconceived notions of what a reverse mortgage is. They think who they

5:00 Think they already know who it's for. They think it's for their clients that are no longer going to be their clients, maybe running out of money, whatever it may be. The thing I would say is this, come in the door to get a meeting. Say, "Look, I am a retirement mortgage specialist. I work with clients that are either 18 years old all the way up to 118 years old that are looking to retire one day. And I help people get to retirement and navigate through retirement." And for me, that's what I am ever so as a retirement mortgage specialist. I'm not selling a product, I'm not selling an exact design for every client. I'm not saying, "Hey, everybody should be looking at a 30-year fixed mortgage any more than a 15-year mortgage or a reverse mortgage." What you're saying is I'm here to help your clients. And I want to meet with you and you talk about when your clients need equity from their home, whether it be a equity line or maybe they're looking to purchase a home, who do you send that business to and why? And that conversation is going to open up the doors. Another question to get in the door is say, "Do you have any loan officers that you work with that are sending you business?" And that's a good question. Do you have anybody sending you business? Forget about asking, too many times we come and say, "I'm looking for somebody to send me business." Ask them, "Do you have anybody sending you business?" A next question, this is the big one, big one if you're going to take away to get a meeting.

6:23 Are you taking on new business? Yeah. Are you as the advisor taking on new business? Do you have people that you want to meet with? Some advisors, by the way, will tell you no, "I'm kind of at the point where I'm just managing my book." But very few are going to say no to that question. Yeah. And when they ask are they taking on new business, I just do a simple follow-up. What does a new client look like to you? Who are you looking for? Because when I come across somebody that you're looking for, I want to know. And that is going to open the door for you to tell you tell the advisor what you're looking for. Hm. Now, when So, you're talking about really networking to meet financial professionals and then using that the process I'm just trying to understand the process. And the second step is at that opportunity to set up a ask a few questions, look for some problems and then set up a meeting to sit down and go more in depth as to where you can solve the problem for them. So, what you're not doing is saying, "I'm a reverse mortgage specialist. Reverse mortgages are great. We have the best reverse mortgage because our reverse mortgage does this." You're really more saying, "What's your problem and how can I help you? I think I have some tools in my toolbox. Let's talk about them." Exactly. And if you're going to throw up a product, it's like a doctor diagnosing too quickly. I mean, me and you were just having a conversation about, you know, doctors and things. And when a doctor and you walk into if you walk into a doctor's office and you say I use this analogy all the time. You say my foot hurts.

7:50 And that doctor looks at you and says, "We're going to put a cast on it." You'd be like, "What are you talking about? I mean, we didn't take an x-ray. We didn't even look at my foot. You didn't even ask me any questions. You just My foot hurts, you're going to put a cast on it?" You'd get up and leave that doctor's office. You'd be like, "That doctor doesn't know what they're doing." What the doctor would do is first of all, they would take your blood pressure and they would do all this stuff just to see how your vitals are. They would even do what I say is my wife's favorite part. They would make you stand on the scale. And then, you would go through and you would find out with an x-ray what's going on. That's the problem with the financial industry and lenders. We are constantly trying to sell a product off or often trying to sell a product, they'll say, and not ask the right questions for solution. The reason I started this whole comment before about John Thompson's event we just did was those type of events are broad where we're just getting enough nuggets to give somebody an idea of what they're missing in their practice or where there may some hole. That gives us the chance to do it one-on-one. So, if you really want to have success meeting with financial professionals, do this. CFPs, certified financial planners. They love getting CE cuz they generally have to pay for it. You can get a class like we just did set up for a CFP designation of CE credit really easily with the CFP board.

9:11 Give a class, give them CE, have them come in. Teach them something they don't already know. And many of them don't understand really what a retirement mortgage specialist does. They don't understand the loan side. It's so funny you say that cuz I've done the same thing in my practice. I'm a real estate broker. My prime target attorneys and fiduciaries. And I just sent in a package to be approved to do CLE, continuing legal education for attorneys. Why? Cuz I'm going to talk to them about what I do in the real estate space. And in some regards it's the same goal. And now my approach is a little different than yours. Not successful as you are, so I'm paying attention here. But I've really always wanted people to remember that they have a certain type of problem that they can call me and I'll find the solution for them. I'll either I either am the guy or I'll know the guy who'll solve the problem. And you're putting yourself in the same position, right? Sometimes the financial planner's not going to remember the whole story about how the program works. But they know they need a couple hundred thousand dollars and they know their client has equity and doesn't have access to something else, they have a problem and they don't remember the details, but you're going to tell them how they can solve the problem, I would think. Yeah, and give them a few takeaways. I mean, we're talking general here, but let me give you some real practical takeaways with Bill was just saying. Is when I go to advisors, I say, "Well, have you ever had a client come to you that said, 'I want to pay cash for a house and they want to take some money out of their investments with you to do so?'" And they're like, "That happens all the time." Well, what do you tell them?

10:35 And they shut up. Listen, what do you tell them? What's your suggestion when that happens? Do you say okay and just follow orders or do you say, "You know, really you've been making eight, nine, ten percent of this money. Do you really want to take this money out and put it into an illiquid asset, not liquid, that's subject to risk, called a house, it can go up, it can go down, and it's in one geographical location locked in the United States of America, and you're going to lock up all this eggs in one basket?" Right. Or do you want to consider talking to my buddy, my retirement mortgage specialist, and looking at some solutions? And a lot of those people, you tell that advisor like, "I love that. That's a good idea. I want to try." But you know, a lot of those clients might say, "Well, I want to pay cash, don't want a payment." The advisor might get some pushback, so you have to educate them. And I know some of all of what meetings you educate them like, "Well, now I'm not telling you to take a loan. What I'm telling you is consider looking at the cost of what this is going to really cost you." Right. You know, I think that there's two parts of the problem of education in your industry from where I sit. You know, I don't really have a dog in the hunt other than I like, you know, I'm an American and I want to see our economy do well. I want to see my customers do well. One is the quality of the education, right? You're talking about pinpointing yourself as a professional to solve the problem by liquidating equity that's otherwise illiquid. And so, you're really involved in that piece.

11:54 That's a high-level discussion, right? Cuz it has to be really customized to that person's needs. Each scenario, unlike a forward mortgage on a purchase, let's say, or refinance, it's a very straightforward story. But on a on a retirement package, what you guys presented, there's a lot of moving pieces, tax consequences, timing issues. It is somewhat complicated. That's why you guys are professionals. But the problem is the volume of that messaging out so limited compared to the volume of the product, which is some swarmy 800% saying, "You can live free. Just borrow money against your house." And I know that those ads almost infuriate the people who, you know, or I should say, strengthen those who want to live without a mortgage payment because they see that and say, "Oh, that's for losers because they don't have enough savings." Or you don't want to live that way. And so, it seems that both your industry needs, and I think you're on top of this at the highest level, NRMAB being one of them. I know the round table you're involved with. The data financial planning is another one. Some high-level, high-quality professional education and outreach. But it just seems that the rest of the industry, and my goal of this podcast was to invigorate originators to do more outreach to the communities, to do more education on their own. Doesn't seem like a lot is happening. Am I Am I missing it? I'm always looking for somebody to, you know, copy my format or upgrade it at the level. I know there's a reverse mortgage website.

13:12 That's a different animal. I'm talking about originators need to be out talking about the product in a way that is professional and high-level rather than just, "Hey, for broke you own a house, I can get you a couple hundred thousand dollars and get you get you started." Yeah, the education is key and we need a ton more of it. I mean, on May 6th I'm teaching a class for Mutual of Omaha called Let's Grow This series they do, which is trying to grow the industry. And I love that. I don't know agenda. I'm not with Mutual of Omaha. I just like that they want to teach the industry and it's and there's other teaching opportunities that are out there, but here's the biggest problem is not enough people have this, you know, all tides raise all boats mentality, which I do and you do, but many others don't. The biggest education out there, like you're saying, are stereotypes that are being presented over and over is for the need-based client, which would be somebody running out of money obviously needs reverse mortgage to pay off their debt or to live on their home, which is great because the product is designed to help those purchase that person. It's not the best design for the product. It just is the most uses of the product. The most uses there is cuz it's been told over and over spend everything else you got and then get a reverse, which would be the last resort strategy that Dr. Wade Pfau mentions in his book, which is if you look at the research, the worst way to use reverse mortgage. The best way would be what we call a coordinated strategy. You spend from the reverse mortgage when you need it, spend from your assets when you need it, but getting one as early as possible. So, that goes back to my comments I was making earlier. When you're talking to financial professionals, you got to give them some easy takeaways. And when you're talking to the public, same thing. One I said earlier, if somebody comes to you and says, let's get cash out of investments. The other one is simple.

14:58 When you're talking to your advisors, you say, listen, I know you're an advisor, many of your people have your houses paid for. Many of them don't need a reverse mortgage. They're not needs-based, or they wouldn't be working with you. But how many of them, if they live long enough and keep spending money at the rate in which they're spending it, will run out of money and then be forced to look at alternatives like a reverse mortgage. And they'll say, well, I have a handful. I have a handful of these people that I know if they spend at the clip their clip taking money from Shain, that's when I'll call you." And that's the mindset of the advisor already. So, you're going to help unwind it. They're going to say, "Okay, when the client is no longer my client, I'm calling you. You're my guy." And I'm like, "Okay. Let's think about that. So, you're saying you have people you know are going to run out of money. Why wouldn't we consider looking at a reverse mortgage earlier so they never run out of money with you?" Right. The light bulb then clicks like, "So, what I'm saying is we're going to you a coordinated strategy to spend out of this account during down markets, a few other nuggets I might give them to say, "Now, I don't have to throw up." See, that wasn't That wasn't a ton of information. That was simple. And they're like, "Okay, now when you get one-on-one, you're going to go through some more detailed numbers." Right. And the third takeaway real quick on this, Bill, is this. They need to see this is key, of all the things I've said.

16:18 They need the advisor needs to see what this looks like for themselves. And this is what's amazing. They're thinking already who they think it's for. They would never the average advisor would never think it's for them. When you show it's for them, say, "Look, I'll show you how this will work for you." And they might say, "Well, like myself, I'm not 62 yet. I'm 47, going to be 48 here in June." Well, I set up a plan of how I'm going to do this when I'm 62 now. And I want to show the advisor what it looks like for them whether they're at age or not. So, quick example, myself, I bought a house last June and I haven't had a loan since I was in my 20s. I've always paid off my houses. Well, I took a mortgage, which is against my normal way I do it, because I decided to follow practice what I preach when I bought this forever home Right.

17:12 At age 47. Right. And when I bought this home, I decided I would take a mortgage on purpose to pay it down, but when I turn 62, stop paying it down. And I'm going to not get into too much detail here because I want acquisition indebtedness and things I teach on. We won't could talk about that in detail, but I did it on purpose so that I could set myself up for my reverse mortgage. Now, Right.

17:35 Now, what I did is two things. I kept over $800,000 with my advisor that I would have taken to pay cash for a home. Correct. I would have had 800 grand more locked in my home instead of my investments. Now, this is what's amazing. The market has been so good on that 800 grand that I put in, that I'm up over 400 grand but I'm on some pretty aggressive stuff, but I'm up almost 400 grand on that money from the time I made this decision. That was a great move for me. Now, obviously, that's not everybody's case, but let's just say this. If I would have locked that in my house, I'd have no mortgage. Downside is I have a mortgage this last 10 months. But here's the most amazing part. When I turn 62, I am set up now to practice what I preach by using a reverse mortgage and keeping more money with my investment advisor. And when I use personal stories like that and things that others are doing, that's the key to working with this industry. Well, I realized it was just better to have even if I just broke even with my with investment broke even with the mortgage. I'd much rather have the money in an investment account and the mortgage than to have no mortgage and no investment account or small investment account. And so, why would you not? You could always write a check and pay it off the next day. There's no prepayment penalty on most of these loans. So, it makes all the sense in the world for me and for everybody, whether you're pre-62 with a regular forward mortgage or a reverse mortgage.

19:08 One of the things that strikes me about you that you're really unique. Now, I'll admit I haven't been invited as deep other companies as you've been very generous to bring me in from the very beginning when I launched this. Was to see your training and a lot and you do coaching internally. I was you know, you invite me into your I think team coaching at C2. You've seen you speak at industry events. You mentioned speaking for you know, you could say competitor, but they're also wholesale company, you know, one of the major companies in the industry. You know, I you talk about the mentality of rising tides raise all ships. You know, there aren't many alternatives in your industry for originator to learn whether it be the technical side or I think the sales motivational side. You provide a lot of that you provide it, you know, externally, you know, freely. So talk a bit about, you know, I know you see some originators who are struggling and they go, "Well, he's at C2. I really don't want to get involved." They don't have to. I've been on I've been in your training. You don't even I don't think you would know the company. Even in your internal coaching, I don't think you would know the company. Now, you do talk about some tools that you guys have I'm sure as a company that not everybody has, but they're not that unusual. It's really just fundamentals. To me it just sounds like all you're really talking about is challenging people to raise their standard and raise their aspirations and how they're approaching this business. I mean, at the core I listened to your talk. It would have been great for a real estate agent like me. It would have been great for any small business. You really just have my fundamentals of listening to your customer and then solving their problems. Yeah, and that's the key is Stephen Covey says begin with the end in mind.

20:46 To me, the end in mind is to change how retirement's being done in this country. It's not about growing C2 Financial, which would be great. I'm fine doing that. I don't I don't have a problem saying I work here and I like, you know, working with people that want to work like-minded together. But if you're at another company, I'm not saying come and join us. That'd be great. But you can stay where you're at, too, and work together as well because I want to change how retirement is being done in this country, not necessarily have to go across party lines, if you will. But, the education we do, we have a Monday call that I do every week. Anybody can come, whether you work for our company or not. I do a training call every Monday at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time. But, I do one a month called reverse truth. Now, this last month we had on Dr. Wade Pfau. That information is for anybody that wants to come, but it's more detailed than the training. This next week, on May 5th at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time, we have a guy named John Israel, Mr. Thank You. He has nothing at all to do with the mortgage industry, other than it's it can be applied to your personal life or the mortgage industry. But, I saw him at an at an MBA event. I saw him speak, he changed my life personally. So, I decided, you know what, I want you to change other people's lives on how to be more grateful and show gratitude in your life. And John Thompson, the event we just did last this last week in Pasadena, Mr. Thank You was our keynote speaker.

22:07 Wow. We had Dr. Wade Pfau the previous year. So, that it to say to kind of compound what you're talking about there, Bill, is education, general education to rise the tide, is what we all need. But, not all of it needs to be about reverse mortgages. I want to be careful that you understand that a lot of the training that I do, a lot of the stuff I talk about, is to get out of the box of constantly driving in reverse mortgages. Even though this is the Reverse Mortgage Podcast, I don't want to downplay that we have and again, begin with the end in mind. I do want to see retirement change in this country. A reverse mortgage is part of that equation, but it is not the equation. Well, you know, people ask me why I do this podcast, and the answer is so many of my probates, I'm a real estate broker focused on probate real estate. And so, much of my business now is either referred by an attorney or fiduciary or a family member who my dad passed away, had a reverse mortgage, and it's just a servicing nightmare. And so, for me, it's really by helping, number one, those families through the process, and then two, challenging originators to say, "Why are we doing this? Why are we not getting involved with the customer's family before they pass away and they have a plan of action? Why are we not getting them into an estate plan that includes a trust so they don't need probate? They just need to maybe sell the house, maybe not, but they don't have to go through a probate legal process on top of all that." And just what you trying to raise the standards and challenges. I felt the same way with you, is so much of what you're doing is teaching people the fundamentals and good relations, good value creation for your customer, not necessarily how to make your brand stand out or extra phone calls.

23:47 There's nothing wrong with making calls, but I don't think that's the be-all end-all. It's really who solves the customer problems most effectively. Yeah. And every one of these steps that you're talking about, you're talking about the end of the line now. I mean, your probate side where you're I love that you just acknowledged, "I came to this industry with this kind of thought mindset." is The end of the process, people that are getting a reverse mortgage and the inheritance, the This is where the black eyes happen more than anywhere in our industry, by the way.

24:13 Right. It's this stage. I love that honesty is what led you to this industry, and you're now the premier podcast in our industry. Period. Well, and the education that you're giving out there and the speakers you're bringing on is wonderful for our industry. But honestly, what Bill's doing out there, guys, is the hardest of the work because the black eyes we get in the industry is not from the clients that use our product. They have a 94% satisfaction rating, higher than any other mortgage. People using it, they touch it and taste it, they're like, "I love it." Yeah.

24:44 And I can make a voluntary payment, I can pay down my house if I want, I can draw it out, this line of credit grows, I can use it tax savings, I can use it to save money by not taking money out of my investments, I can live on it, I can stop making a mortgage payment. All the things that they're included in, they're like it's wonderful. But their heirs, their kids, they weren't part of that education. They weren't part of the program. They never touched the loan. They all of a sudden inherit a home with the mindset that I better back up my vehicle to the house as fast as I can, get the U-Haul there and get everything out cuz FHA's taking the house.

25:18 Exactly. That's what they think. It's true. And they don't they don't know now there's the probate process that Bill's talking about and all that stuff. Nobody's talked to them. So here's the number one takeaway if you're listening on our side. Let's help Bill. Let's help these estate planning attorneys. Let's help these attorneys that don't even understand what they're doing. I mean Bill could tell you that story more than me. Attorneys that don't think that as well. So here's what we have to do. We have to say this. This is what I tell every client. Every client when we close on them. Bill said it. I was at a closing this morning. And it was it was a little I need to be there. I love that. You know, I got to tell you I'm always excited to talk to you because of the power and the position you have and the people you touch. But when you tell me you're at a closing it's like this dude's real. He knows what his business is all about. Well, you have to be there. And I told my clients right to their face, I'm in your life forever if you'll have me. Remember that. I so always tell people, I'm in your life forever if you'll have me. And that's not just the closing. I tell that to Bill. Me and Bill are in each other's life because we want to be, not because we have an agenda. I love Bill. I think what he's doing for the industry is great. But I'm in his life forever if he'll have me. And that's a two-way street to that. He's in my life forever as well. And so here's the point. When I tell people that I say don't call the 1-866 number you're going to get on your statement when you have questions. You call the 208 number.

26:36 And I want you to get me in touch with your kids. This is where you're going to find out along the loan process if the kids are involved or not. Now some parents, they feel ashamed getting a reverse mortgage. Hear me. It's so true. It's so Say it again cuz that's just so true. Because they felt like they failed their kids. Yeah. And those are the usually the needs-based clients, not the affluent. The affluent that we use this on, different scenario. But the needs-based client, they feel ashamed. Like, I got I got down to the last dollar, and now I have to use the house. I failed. First of all, we got to change that mindset. You didn't fail any more than spending the money out of your IRAs. You saved it to spend it. That's a mind shift. Second thing, a lot of them don't tell their kids about it. Not just cuz they're ashamed as well, but it's none of their business. So, you're going to have either ashamed, none of their business, or a little bit of both. The third and probably the dumbest of the reasons is they don't have any estate plan at all done. They don't have a will or trust or anything. They just aren't prepared. Yeah. So, those common things, you get to come alongside and help that person work with a bill. Work with this trust attorney that's going to set up a trust or you know, a will, whatever. And help that next step. So, this is where I cover. I say, "Now, if you can get past the ashamed and tell them don't be ashamed. If you can get past the fact that their kids is none of their business. If you can get past the fact they don't have a plan.

28:02 Now, you're going to help them say, 'Listen, we want to talk to the kids, not because we want to get them in your life and get in your business, but when you pass away, this is what your kids are going to think. They're going to think you sold the house or got rid of the house. They don't own the house. They're going to hear reverse mortgage.' And your kids are going to go into panic mode. Do you want that to happen?" No. You don't. And they don't. So, now we can resolve that now. And I put in every today, every one of my closings, I put in this book. Dan Holquist book, which I don't get a dollar for telling you this. Telling you, it's called Navigating Reverse. You put that book, Navigating Reverse, in every one of your closings. He's going to tell you step by step what to do when this process happens. Worst case scenario, flag this book with your kids. If you don't want to talk to them now, tell them read this book if something happens to me and call Shain. You know, if I have a fantasy that if I was a president of C2 Financial, I would make every reginal come to my office to pick up their commission checks monthly and document that they had called all the clients from a year ago every year for the rest of business because to make them have those relationships. And what I find is that when you make that extra call that you think is so hard, it gets easier the next time you call that same person. And so what you're talking about at the closing is a difficult conversation to prepare for and execute, but it makes you calling them 11 months later much easier, you know, if that if that has to happen. And so I think this is the process. For me, if I was to challenge reginals watching this is that's the process. Get started on that relationship. Obviously, at the close the way Shain laid out today, great mechanics, the book, the conversation, and then just commit to calling them every year. They need to do an annual statement in most cases anyhow. Why would you not call your customer every year to help them what? Why would you not do that? I just don't get that. But again, I don't I own the company, but I would hand out the checks only with proof that you called your past clients because otherwise you're just you're leaving business on the table, I think. Well, advisors do it. They call it their annual review system. Yes.

29:59 Every advisor that And now, they might not meet with every single client, but they try to. And they might do some digital, some face-to-face. You can do the same. A quick follow-up is not that difficult. I call mine my You know this, we've talked about it before, but I call it my annual preview system. Instead of looking at last year, I say let's what's this year going to look like? I like that positive side. So, it's an annual preview. We're going to preview 2026. We start doing I start these calls in November and I go all the way through about January because I'm getting ready for tax season. Yes, we're talking about last year, but we're talking about what this next year is going to look like. And I schedule them out all year long. And the key is to make sure they understand these things. Now, let tell you the takeaway. You're going to start meeting with these kids. You're going to start meeting with these heirs. And by meeting with these heirs in these review systems, you're going to get two extreme There's in between here, too. Two extreme responses. One is they are going to be pissed. They're going to be like, you took my equity, you took advantage of my mom and dad. Whatever it may be, it's either from their point of view or mom and dad. And that gives you an opportunity to educate and teach this kid what's up. The other extreme is, thank you for helping mom and dad. Yeah. Thank you for what you did. Their lifestyle this last year or whatever has been wonderful. Thank you so much. And that's the best one, obviously. Yeah.

31:21 But both of those give you opportunity to educate what the next step's going to look like when something happens to mom and dad, whether it be going to assisted living, passing away. But the best thing is this, you picked up another client. If you're a retirement mortgage specialist who's not just hammering home reverse, this person may need help, too. They may need a loan now, in the future, or maybe even a reverse of their own. So, here's what I say. That is your next round of people. And they know people. So, you want to get to know these kids. And you're not going to get to know kids doing a 30-year fixed mortgage for mom and dad. They're never going to talk to you. They will talk to you when you're in the reverse mortgage space. Shain, as always, we've gone for hours. You're obviously one of the leading thought leaders in the industry, one of the leading managers, and one of the top producers in this business. I really appreciate You really helped me launch this podcast we started a little over a year ago. Shain is the national director of production at C2 Financial, the national director of production for the reverse mortgage section. He's also on the board of the National Reverse Mortgage National Reverse Mortgage Lenders Association and education, as well. Definitely reach out to him, get involved with his coaching program. It's fantastic stuff. If you want to get more Shain contact information above, or reach out to me if you're listening this on the podcast.

32:40 Love to get you guys connected if I can help in any way. Shain, thank you as always for your support. I really appreciate you what you do for the industry, and I appreciate what you've done for us personally. Thank you, brother. Thanks, man. And for the rest of you, this is the Reverse Mortgage Podcast. We get together every week. In this case, we have both an originator and a manager and a thought leader. It was really exciting, I think. Let me know your thoughts. You like it, didn't like it? Thumbs up, subscribe, send me a note if I can help in any way. Reach out at on social media @BillGrossProbate. As always, make today your best day or thanks so much.