The State of the Reverse Mortgage Industry, with Shain Urwin

0:02 I launched this Reverse Mortgage Podcast about six months ago and I got lucky in that one of the first people I talked to shout out to John Thompson said you got to talk to Shain Urwin. You got to talk to Shain and I said great. I was looking for guests and it really I wasn't that partic with that point and I didn't I not he was all that great but Shain is unique in that he's an originator. He's also a manager of salespeople and trainer and coach of sales people. He also is a thought leader in the business. And so when we started out and just FYI, this podcast now we've recorded 32 episodes over 2,800 let me get the actual numbers here over 28,000 views average of almost 54 hours per episode. And one of the reasons why is Shain kind of point me in the direction of looking for certified reverse mortgage professionals because he's involved with that organization. And he also introduced me to a number of the greatest professionals in the business. And so it's been non-stop. So now that all said, you might say, "Well, Bill, be nice to Shain. You owe him a lot." No, see, I'm not getting paid for this. This is about my business. I got into this on the thesis that there should be 10 times as many reverse mortgages as being done. And the only reason we did not primarily was the lack of service to the customer and the servicing problems customers had at the end. So, who better to talk to either to blame for the problem or turn to for the solutions than a guy who has his finger on the pulse of the industry?

1:25 Shain Urwin, C2 Financial. Thanks so much for joining us, Shain. Thanks, Bill. Love, man. I love what you're doing. You're helping promote something that's very near and dear to many of us in the industry, the reverse mortgage space, as retirement mortgage specialists. Man, you are one of a kind. I love what you're doing. I love that you got 28,000 hours of, you know,

1:47 20,000 views. 28,000 views, sorry. And 40, what you would say? 54 hours of actual watch time of your episode. That's awesome. That's awesome. And so that tells me there's a need for this education most amongst professionals. And so I see the convergence of the problem of this industry, the reputation and that's you know the lingering reputation is unfair and the earned reputation that's fair because so many of these mortgage come to an end and the originator has not created a relationship to help guide the customer post death, post transfer, whatever you want to call that. At the same time with the lack of commitment to that. Now when I talk to the top people and I've interviewed really only the top professionals to be fair, the top ones all make a career out of connecting to the customers and hopefully the customer's family and the customer's team yet so many don't. So let's talk about that and start there. What do we you know I was shocked to find out that a customer in a reverse mortgage on most of the HECMs is required to fill out a form every year. What a great opportunity to reach out to customers and interact with them. What do we do to get originators to look at that as the ultimate marketing opportunity rather than some administrative task they have to take care of?

3:00 That's a good question. You know, the servicesers are sending out the form and it's actually colored. It's a big deal. They send it out saying, "Hey, you need to fill out this form." And sometimes they have to send it multiple times because people aren't paying attention. And you don't fill out your occupancy form, send it back in, you're going to have a serer begin the nasty the nasty word foreclosure. They want to know you're living in the home. And I think you're right on that. The average loan officer has no clue that form's even coming to be honest. And they don't have any say or any contact about anything after the loan closes. The loan closes, they've made been paid their commission, they're out. That's a detriment in our industry. I think as loan officers, knowing that we're going to have this form coming back to our client the year after we close that loan every year is something we need to set our clocks to as well. We're not the one that sends the form. We're definitely somebody that can be there to help make sure they're looking for it, make sure we're connecting with them. I have an annual preview system I do, which it's an annual review system. I call it preview because I like to preview what the next year is going to look like instead of always looking backwards because a lot of financial advisors, CPAs, attorneys, they do review u systems, but loan officers don't typically do that. And mine is a 47 questions. It's a questionnaire. Got 47 questions on it. I tell my clients, this has nothing to do with your mortgage, but it has everything to do with your life. And I'm interested in your life.

4:25 And so for me, when you're dealing with these annual checkups, you want to make sure that you're bringing in some value to your client. So check up, make sure that not only are they signing their annual occupancy certificate, and they're going to need to do that every year. We just tell them that at closing, but followup is that time to connect. Also, check with other things like HOI. Is their homeowner's insurance up to date? Is their house gone up in value? Do they have enough coverage to replace their home? Let's say they lived in a little place called LA and their house burned down a few months ago.

4:58 How many people, Bill, I mean, I know you're near and dear to that. I see all your content on it and you're talking about that constantly and the permits. How many of those people can't even replace their own home? They didn't have enough insurance.

5:09 Right. Right. Well, I think it let me add another one in. How do you hold title on the property? Right. Because maybe when you talked to them and did the loan three years ago, they didn't have a trust, but they weren't interested. Now they got grandkids. Now, you know, one of the kids's been sick, now you know what they've retired, now they've cashed out business, whatever's changed. And I think that we have as a real estate agent, I'm not a originator. I'm only at this because so many originators fail and then the properties in forclosure and then the family calls me in a desperation. What do we do? Because we have to go through probate quickly and I help manage that process for them. But to me, it just seems like you mentioned 47 questions that what a great opportunity that is annually if you can to anticipate problems they're going to face. They're going to face these problems. Let's prepare now and lower the pain and lower the expense.

6:04 Well, and not every question will apply to your client. You don't have to go through it like it's a regimen. This is what I tell my loan officers and people I work with. Don't go through and just treat somebody like they're a number and go through all the things that you have on your list. Talk and have a dialogue. If I'm talking to you, Bill, and I know something doesn't apply, I don't continue down that trail,

6:24 Right? Just move on. But the point is offer value. And if you're if you're to go back to your question, you know, how can we as an industry follow up with our clients better and that annual occupancy certificate is going to come out in the reverse space. Use that as a springboard to stay in your client's life. And that's what it is. I have a saying I say to every one of my clients. I say it every time I close a loan. And I've said it to you when I deal with a referral partner or somebody I really enjoy. I say, "I'm in your life forever if you'll have me."

6:55 And I want people to know that. I don't want to go anywhere. I want to be here to help you. You don't have to call the 1-800 number. Call the 208 number. You know, don't call go call somebody and talk to somebody in India. You can talk to me. And so the point is you want to deal with your clients and you want them to know you're there for them. So being that they're going to have that servicing form come out,

7:16 Right? That's the perfect time. And I'll share my annual review form with you, Bill, and you anybody that wants to reach out can have a copy of it. I have an unbranded version so they don't have they can put their own logos and brands on it if they'd like. It's an editable fillable form.

7:30 Well, nice. Well, sent to me. I'll put that in the description of the YouTube for people watch that. Yeah. You know, I think that when you talk about having an annual process to me, if I was a serer, I'm not. I've met a couple of their executives, but I mean, these are big organizations. These are tech companies that their goal in life is not to talk to human beings, but their goal is to have those loans stay on the books as cost-effectively as possible forever, if possible. You would think they would either copy that notice to the originator who did who sold them the loan if they want more from them or they have some other originator maybe in house. Copy them on it. But somebody should get that letter to say, "Hey Shain, I noticed that we got the your annual report. I just want to make sure that you had chance to complete it. Oh, and by the way, if you have some time, I'd like to look at the rest of your life. I have a voice questionnaire. Let's go through it." Like why? Now I know that C2 you guys do some servicing but not the majority of it. I'm not sure how your company profile is.

8:32 Yes. So we're a broker. We don't service our loans. What we do is immediately we have two sides of C2. We have C2 Funding and C2 Financial. C2 Funding does offer that more banking relationship if you will. They're you know many call it's a correspondent model. A mini correspondent model where we hold that paper quickly and get rid of it and sell it off. Still, we're not servicing a loan. Servicing comes down to the lender that's going to have it at the end. So, if we do a UWM loan, United Wholesale Mortgage on the forward side, they're going to service that loan. They may transfer that servicing as well, but they generally service a lot of their loans. They were selling them to Mr. Cooper until they got bought out by Rocket and no longer that case, but they'll servicing is usually done on the lender level and they'll sell that off. On the reverse level, there's only two servicesers. So, there's Calink and PH. That's it. And Calink services most of the loans. When you start looking at these, even Finance of America, FAR, and Mutual of Omaha, and these other large companies, they don't service their loans. They use a subser. So, they might have FAR on the statement or Longbridge on the statement, but Calink is actually the serer. So in the broker world, we just we get rid of that paper immediately,

9:51 Right? And so what just to put a little color on what you're saying is that they might make it look to the customer like the lender is still servicing the loan by private labeling the paper as a statement, but and this is what customers discover. They make the phone call, they realize they're not talking to, you know, their trusted favorite mortgage professional gain the loan. They're talking to the servicesers call center, whatever. And I don't want to badmouth anybody, but let's just be honest, like you said, no one wants to call the service center. It doesn't go back to the actual originator, and it should. And I think that's where there's an opportunity that's being missed. But until that happens, the opportunity is a solution, which is if you're an originator, you know, they're getting it every year. Like just put it in your calendar, call them at 11 months, you're going to get it. As soon as you get a call, we'd love to talk to you. Here's a link. Set a time with me. Let's go through it together. Make sure you do it right. This is important. You don't want to lose your house. You know, I'm here to see you through to the end. Oh, you don't know how to answer the questions, but you want to get your son involved. Great. Love to meet your son because they do business, too. Like, they have houses to buy and sell and finance.

10:49 So, this is the opportunity that if we did this as an industry 10 times better, we'd have 10 times more business. We'd also business better.

10:57 And if we don't, I'm going to just tell those originaries, if you don't, if you think your business is based on Google ads and Facebook ads, you're going to get replaced by Google and Facebook. They can't replace our relationships, but they can but we can keep those relationships despite the technology if we earn that by helping our customers and solve problems. So to me, this is number one. And I know that you talk about that the relationships on your on your coaching and throughout your content. Let's talk a little bit about though coaching. I mean service to service to referral partners because I know a lot of your business is about getting set up with financial planners, accountants, real estate agents, forward mortgage originators. Talk a bit about how that relationship is formed because on one hand you want to keep the customer on the other hand you got to bring them back to the person who gave it to you. You can't steal the business or interfere with that. So how do you coach your originators to u manage or supplement the business with the referral sources?

11:52 Well, I think there's a lot of common sense involved. You help people get what they want. Think about that first. What can I what can I do for you? What can I get for you? You're going to get plenty of what you want. Take money out of the equation. Quit trying to chase the almighty dollar. Quit trying to ask. A lot of people they loan officers as a whole. They go to the real estate world. Let's say real estate agents. Let's use example. They real estate agent knows they're here. They know the loan officers here. And everybody knows that pecking order and that feeling is mutual on both sides. And the loan officers, they don't really want to call on agents, but they do. And so what happens is, Bill, they reach out and they ask for business. Loan officer says, "Hey, send me loans. I'm great. I'll close on time. I'll be there for you." You know, they're saying the same thing everybody else is saying. They might show up at open house. Do whatever it takes. But the point is, if you're trying to get business and work with referral partners, find out what they're interested in, what they're looking for, what they want. If you're working with financial advisors, CPAs, attorneys, a guy that has a podcast, whatever it may be, you know, for me, I met you and the natural thing I like to just use our example is for me to get more people your way because you're you got a podcast, you're spreading the news, good news. I call good news, great news about reverse mortgages and you're going through the country. You're an ambassador for us. And so for me, immediately I'm think, okay, I got to get you in front of Dr. Wade Pfau. I got it. I started thinking of people immediately. We know me and you talked and I said, "Hey, you've interviewed several of our loan officers at C2 as well because I knew, Bill, if I can get you what you want now, naturally, I never asked you for business. I never even did it, but naturally things have come. I met this morning with a financial adviser that dropped your name to me

13:35 Out of Philadelphia." Wow. And I was able But you know, you brought that up in conversation. He came my way. I never said, "Hey, Bill, do that." That's the point. That's how referrals work. That's how partnerships work when people are working together. If you want to, if I teach financial adviserss or CPAs or attorneys how to work with us and teach my loan officers to do the same, it's simple. It's give people what they want. If you want an adviser to work with you, don't go in there and say, "Send me business." Don't start there. Don't even ask that. Instead, say, "What does your client look like? And how can I send you business?" And you can do that easier than you think. When you start working with your loan officer, if you start working with your database, and you start asking your clients, do you have a financial adviser? Do you have a CPA? Do you have an attorney? And you begin to extract information on your typical loan, you're going to come up with people who don't have an adviser that are looking for one. You're going to come up with people that have an adviser but don't like them. You're going to have people that have a 401k at work, but nobody's managing it. I ask every one of my clients. I'll say, "Do you have a 401k at work at your job?" "Yes." "Are you taking the match? Are you putting money in?" "Yes or no." I get the answer. Then I ask this question. Who helped you select your investments? Well, the computer or myself. And I'll say, "Well, how's that going for you?" You know, and do would you like somebody to take a peek at that to make sure it's working for you? To make sure you're allocated properly free of charge. I got advisors who'll sit down and look at that. They don't manage your work 401k but one day when you leave your job they might want to help you manage that. So these are the type of things I know that's a lot of information the answer to your question but you want to look for opportunities where you can extract business where you can send referrals out naturally in an organic way but the key to that is not to ask it's to give.

15:33 Yeah. It's so funny you say that because I think it's to give. But it's also to look at your job as opportunity to be of service, right? Even before giving is just do your job, you know, with a smile and help the customer and meet them part way. And I know that you talk about that a lot. I had experience recently. I sold a made a great deal on investment and I had a couple hundred,000 of liquid assets I went to add to my, you know, personal savings security situation. And I knew it'd be I couldn't wire it without a whole song and dance out of my business account because Wells Fargo is a nightmare. And I and I called my local rep and said who I joined them because the rep who left because she had a baby and retired. Long story. Anyhow, I called up like on a Monday, hey, I had this large check. Can I just bring you the cashier's check because wiring is hard at Wells Fargo. I don't have that kind of authority with them. I don't know why. He has a coin back for two days. Two days later, I noticed the company I have a stock plan with XP realy and we have this account open with Erade automatically for our company stock. I go, "What if I just deposit the money with Erade? Would they take it?" And looked at my phone. I deposited $2,000. Now, they held it for like three or four days or something. The guy called me back the next day. Hey, I just heard you need help with your check. Oh, that's okay. I got it. I got it. It's done. And my point of all that is to say, if we don't do our job better than these online services, we're going to be replaced.

16:52 Yes. Had he called me back that day, I would have met him. I would have bought him coffee or lunch or something. He's a nice guy, whatever. The point of all that has to say is we have to look at the interaction with the customer as the goal not the problem be overcome and not be replaced by chat GBT that's what we get paid to do is discover the problem with the customer solve the problem the customer and then do it again and again and we get business whether it's referral source or an individual so let's talk a bit about when you work with professionals one of the challenges I find in kind of massaging those relationships is you know how do I make sure that I'm not stepping on their toes with a customer but at the same time I want to create value right so what does that mean doing the annual phone call you know if I just did that every year and didn't tell the financial planner I do something like that they might say why are you calling my customer I referred to you but you know I have other plans for them versus if I say to them hey part of my service is so the customer doesn't call you in a panic I call them every year and I ask some key questions is there anything you want me to ask them so that if the answers is right, I bring them to you for a solution like trusts or investments or things like that. So, talk a bit about kind of the advanced process of working with referral sources rather than just going with a transaction and going on the next one.

18:11 Well, yeah, man, that's good questions. You know, when you think about stepping on toes, you started that question with, you know, when you're dealing with adviserss or CPAs, attorneys, they have their own systems. You definitely don't want to get in their lane. At the same time, I mean, I'm a loan officer fin I call myself a retirement mortgage specialist and many of our loan officers here at C2 go under that same designation, but we're not going to get into retirement strategies and talk about allocations and what investments to go. We're not licensed to do that any more than they should start talking the details of reverse mortgage or forward mortgage. They're not licensed to do that. So the referral partners we're working with, we know each of our scope of work and we talk about our annual preview system and our and what we do and they know that the advisor knows that we're going to do that. So it's not like a secret that we're going to talk every year. That's refreshing to them. First of all, loan officers don't do that typically. Secondly is it takes a workload off them on checking onto things they don't manage.

19:09 So they don't manage their portfolio when it comes to debt. They don't manage their equity, right? We do.

19:17 So, we're when we're covering that, when the advisor themselves goes through their review system, they're saying, "Hey, I already met with Shain. We already talked about this." But often, Bill, we do the review together. So, with me and my adviserss and our more affluent clients, we're not doing two separate meetings. We're doing one. So, I get invited to the table either way through Zoom or face tof face with many of my clients and the advisor and we do the annual review together because they're managing part of the portfolio and I manage part of the portfolio. And so, you're going to see yourself more of a trusted resource the more you incorporate your system with your advisor. Instead of saying this is my system, come along.

19:56 Yeah. You should say what's your system? How can I come alongside that? So, I would encourage everybody to read Bob Berg's book, The Go-Giver. And if you haven't read the Go-Giver, everybody is listening here, go get the Go-Giver and read it. Read it. It is truly the mantra I try to live by.

20:14 I think you do. I mean, I can just say, you know, my personal experience is you do. And now I reflect, you know, the largest estate I've been involved with, we had team meetings. We had the accountant, several types of attorneys, estate planner, civil attorney, and the accountant. And you know, it was great because, you know, I heard how they approached things and I can fit in and I can anticipate, oh, you're going to need to sell a property not now, but a year or two from now. Okay, that's good to know. Just, you know, let's file that away and make sure we keep leads for that type of property. And so, I think working together as a team. Okay. So, next question I've been aching to ask you. I stalled this one off because at the beginning I think I came out a little too hard and I know you don't run the whole industry and I don't think you even run all of C2. I know you're a key link there, one of the key players, one of those viable players, but it's not your company.

21:03 Is that in order for us as an industry though to grow 10 times the volume, either the people in the business have to be 10 times more productive or you need 10 times more people or some combination of both. So is your focus is in your think about in your management capacity. Is your focus more on productivity per agent or more on recruiting or evenly both?

21:26 Man, I love your questions. I would say it's a mix, but definitely more on getting my forward more loan officer into the reverse phase. So here at C2, you're right. I'm just the national reverse mortgage director. I run the reverse division. I have I don't handle anything to do with the forwards. Now, I do all types of loans myself, including forwards. I always say forwards are kind of like a bad drug I'm trying to get off, but I try I'm trying to focus on reverse only, but I still come across clients that need commercial loans. Whatever we can help them, but that said, I have almost 1300 loan officers at C2 now. And I looked this morning, so I have the exact number of our reverse certified loan officers. There's 399 of them. Of those 1300. So

22:10 Are in the reverse phase. When I came three years ago, it'd be three years and three months actually right now. So three or three months ago I came to C2 and Scott Harms was the national reverse mortgage director and I kind of came alongside him. Now I'm the director and he's kind of my second man in charge. He helps me. And we had just under a hundred. Scott was just breaking the 100 mark of reverse certified people just over three years ago. And we're almost 400 now. And the reason why we're having more success in closing more loans is because we're getting the news out to more traditional loan officers. I honestly think for us to go up 10x, what you talked about, it's there's a saying, a book I read every day. It's my favorite book. And it says there's if you have a plank in your eye, you know, it basically says this way. How do you get the speck out of your brother's eye when you have the plank in your own eye? We have a problem with us. Okay. The problem isn't the public. It's not the financial advisor CPAs. Malcolm Gladwell, Malcolm Gladwell's book, The Tipping Point, talks about connectors. We keep thinking the tipping point in the reverse industry is getting the public to know it more. Have Tom Celich get on TV or maybe get financial advisors or maybe you think it's no it's not that it's CPAs whatever it may be. No, the issue is loan officers. There's thousands and thousands and thousands of loan officers that think a reverse mortgage is a negative thing. Bill, the answer to the question is this. We need the traditional everyday loan officer to understand that a reverse mortgage is a great product for the clients to consider and they should be looking at that product as an option. And if we can get just to see two, if I could get my 1300 loan officers to close one loan this year, one reverse, that would make us number four in the country in reverse closings. Okay? If we closed four each loan officer, we would be number one in the country.

24:08 We would pass Mutual of Omaha as number one with four, that's four units a year, one a quarter per loan officer. And we're nothing. You take a company like Guild Mortgage. I just spoke with Jim Corey at an event for Nermla and they have almost 4,000 loan officers, 3500 to 4,000 right in that range. And there you go. Some of these companies have four, five, 6,000 loan officers, these bigger companies. And they need the same push that we're trying to do at C2, get their forward loan officers to look at reverse as a positive thing. And we can see that number go up 10x because the loan officers themselves are much like me. When I before 2017, if you would asked me about a reverse mortgage, I would have told you, don't do it. They're going to take your house. I would have said, "No way."

24:59 In 2017 is when I learned the truth about reverse mortgages. And up till then, every person that ever talked about a reverse mortgage to me, including my own grandfather, he came to me in 2008, Bill, and said, "I want to put a reverse mortgage on my house. And I owned my own mortgage company at the time. I went to school in finance. He sent me to college. He trusted me. I had licenses to sell stocks and bonds at one point. I mean, I'm educated guy. And I said, "No, they're going to take your house. Don't do it." And I did not do my own grandfather's reverse mortgage. So, I'm just like many loan officers. I didn't understand them. Then I started looking into them and I said, "You know what? Maybe they're not going to take your house, but they're super expensive. They're going to pay me a ton. I don't know. I'm not doing it. And in 2008, I kicked him down the road and he went to that bank you talked about earlier, Wells Fargo, and he did it without me. And I'm fine with that because at the time, I was like, I'm not going to be ex the one responsible when Mima comes after me because papa lost the house. And so I had this misconceived notion. And that's the problem with the industry. If we want to grow, if we want to see change, we must get the regular traditional loan officer to look at forward and look at reverse mortgages at really understand them to learn the language. And it's not that big of a language.

26:23 It's not that big of a difference compared to regular mortgages. We're told, oh no, you have to go through all this process, but people that are doing forward mortgages, they know tons of different programs. They know DSCR. They know bank statements. They know, you know, conventional Fanny May, Freddy May, MAC loans. They know FHA, VA. There's lots of different products and programs. This is just another one for them to learn. You

26:48 I was originator Todd Rier years ago. I went to a superstar retreat. In fact, it was Todd Duncan's first superstar retreat ever in San Diego, California. I was on a panel and he asked me to prepare. He said, "I'd like to ask you a question. What's something somebody can do that doesn't cost much to build their business. And at that time, the 4155, the FHA underwriting guide book was only in paper format. You went to your underwriter's office or your branch manager's office. They had a copy there. And so I said, my answer was, take that book, go down to the local print shop, make your own copy, and read it cover to cover the sections that relate to what you're doing. You should know everything in that. Like, if you know everything there, you're competent. If you don't know anything in there, you're incompetent. It's as simple as that. If you're competent, business will flow to you versus run away from you because you're a salesperson. And originators, I feel like just if they just started with the disclosures and the actual notes on the reverse mortgages and read them and understood what the actual forms and disclosures lay out, it lays out so much of the process that you'd be in the top 10% of reverse mortgage originators in the country if you just read the stupid forms. Now, I say this to real estate agents, too, because I have agents who write offers and they've never read the entire purchase agreement form. In California, it's I don't know, 20 something pages, whatever it is, but it's not that much. I mean, it's readable. It's not a book. It's too much, but it's a book, not a book. So there's my question. If I if I popped into C2 Financials reverse mortgage originators and gave a pop quiz on what's in the forms, how many are going to pass that quiz? And how many rig or regular originators forward originators should just read the form for free and decide is this something I that my customers might appreciate.

28:32 No, you nailed it. I think that's true. I think I if you took my 399 certified loan officers, most of them have never read the note the deeds and understand how they work any of that. And

28:44 Don't charge those forms, right? You'll give them a copy for free to read. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But you know, even that, Bill, I think that there's you're on to something. Understanding is part of it. See, I think knowledge is the beginning, but it's really not the ultimate issue still. It's overcoming objections. See, once you learn the truth of this, you could have the truth and have it packed up inside you,

29:08 Right? It's still not going to impact lives if it doesn't come out. You have to understand how to overcome objections on this loan. You're good at this. You don't do reverse mortgages, but you understand them. And I'm sure if I gave you a room of a hundred people and you could go through and overcome their objections with a simple presentation and understand how this loan works and get through it. But here's the thing. How many people financial advisors, you deal with them all the time, too. And they still think this loan's the boogeyman.

29:36 They've been told the truth. They have the knowledge. They know you're not going to lose the house anymore. But they think it's just for the last resort. They think, "Okay, sure." When somebody's running out of money, when they don't have anything left, they're finally going to take the reverse mortgage. Tag your it is what I call it. So, the adviser reaches out and says, "Hey, tag your it. My client's out of money. They're yours now."

29:55 Well, why did you let them run out of money in the first place? Why weren't we looking at a reverse mortgage earlier? So, they say they get it, Bill. They say they understand it, but they don't.

30:04 And that's the same with loan officers. I think there's lots of foreign loan officers think, "Yeah, okay. For the right client, I'm going to look at a reverse mortgage." Yeah. And I always say, "What's the right claim?" And I have them give me the definition.

30:17 And it's wrong. It's wrong every time. Like one out of a thousand might get it right. Here's what it's for. Everyone, listen to me real close that's over the age of 55

30:30 Should start looking at reverse mortgages as an option. Should everyone take one? No. But they should be educated looking at other option. Now, once they turn 62, the HECM comes into play. And if you're married to somebody that's 62 or older, you know, you can be a part as a non-borrowing spouse. And so I always tell people if you want a reverse mortgage or be a part of it, go to silvers singles.com and find yourself somebody over 62 and you can you can play. But the point is you need to start understanding how to overcome those objections and start with the objections that are already in the mind of the individual that's doing the loans. And that's what I'm trying to do at C2. At C2, I'm trying to get our four loan officers to really wrestle with the objections they have in their own mind so they can see how this can help their clients. And so I try to get them to do three case studies. One, for a person in their database that they know is going to need a reverse mortgage at some at some point. The needs-based client, I try to get this with advisors as well, the needsbased client. So I'll tell advisor, tell me a client that's going to run out of money. You can tell me their name right now. You know, we'll call him John Doe. John Jane Doe, doesn't care the name, but you know the client if they keep spending like they are, they're not going to be a client much longer. Another one is a client that you know is wealthy for a loan officer or adviser. Their house is either paid off or going to be paid off soon. They have millions of dollars.

31:54 They're not a needsbased. And then you have yourself. See, Bill, this is the number one thing. You're you and I are not reverse eligible yet, but when you are

32:05 I'm easily reverse eligible. Well, I didn't see I don't know your age, so I was just assuming. I'm 66. Wow. That's why I launched this podcast. Okay, hold on one second.

32:14 You're doing yourself. I was talking to an orig around the time I was talking to John Thompson and I was looking to buy a house in Florida. I live in LA. We can't really move because my grandkids are here. Don't want to sell the house and use that equity for a variety of reasons. I have enough money to buy about a $500,000 condo at the time in Florida. Not much. And I'm talking to Rich goes, "Well, be considered reverse mortgage." Why would I need reverse mortgage? Because instead of a $500,000 cash house, I could buy an $800,000 property for cash. I said, "How's that work? Just get a $300,000 first. It's a reverse. You have to pay on it. You buy an $800,000 property, depreciates $800,000, not a 500." And I'm thinking, I'm a real estate broker. How do I not know this? So yeah, plan it to yourself when you think you don't. Thank you for guessing my age wrong, but yeah, we should all look at this tool and say, not that I'm going to move, and I'm not going to move to Florida, maybe for tax reasons. That's a long discussion, but my point is, okay, but I could hypothe hypothetically look at it and now I have a product that I can apply to other customers. Anybody buying for cash should evaluate, is a reverse mortgage make more sense than cash? At least ask the question. At least look at it on paper.

33:27 Agreed. Now, in your case, yours is because you were thinking about cash. There's a million different reasons why a person should look at the point is I'm 47, so I'm not old enough for reverse, but that doesn't mean I can't run a scenario what it's going to look like when I'm at that age. So, even though I'm not there, and it might be instead of buying for cash, it might be because I want to use it for tax deduction strategies, whatever it may be. And we don't have time to cover all that in the podcast today.

33:50 The point is, look at it for yourself. If you're talking to a loan officer, they when they see it how it's going to apply to them, I finally see the light bulb going. It's not you would think those scenarios just like you and when I do it with a financial adviser, even if they're of age or not, we'll pretend they're 62 and I'll show them how it's going to work for them. It's when they finally get it. It's not when they see it for a client because it's like some reason there's a disconnect in seeing it a case study or seeing somebody else's story. When they see their own story, they're like, "it makes sense now." And there's that whole plank removal is we need to stop. I mean, how many years ago you said that four or five years ago when that happened to you four years ago?

34:31 No, I launched P not even a year ago. I when I did that, I said, "This is crazy." And I looked into YouTube and said, "We need to do a lot more of these. Who's out there advocating for it?" I didn't really see I you know, I didn't see you at the time or know your time. So, I just said, "I'm going to do this. This has to happen. Like, this will work out somehow for me. Let's just do it. And I launched the podcast. That was that was the evidence.

34:51 A year ago, you are an educated guy. You're bright. I read all your writ Yeah. And look at your podcast. In a year, Wow, man. I need to interview you. I got a lot of questions. But the point is, in a year, what you've done, you've become such an advocate in this industry. And one year ago, you didn't understand me. So, that's my point.

35:11 I had no idea. Had no idea. I qualified for one. I was 60 at the time, 65. Didn't think I qualified for one because I, you know, has to be 72 or 70 or something for older people. And why would I need one? Well, I didn't need one. You don't need to buy a house in Florida. It might be nice to have a house in Florida for various reasons. And yeah, no, it's you're right. It's you're 100% right. We should all look at it for ourselves.

35:36 Well, we go 10x if more stories like you a year ago have look at you now. Not everybody's you. Look what you've done in a year with the knowledge you've got. Said, "Knowledge is part of it, but you've done something with that knowledge,

35:49 Right? I'm doing something with my knowledge." And in October of 2017 is when I learned about these and I began to shift my career to be an evangelist for this industry. We need more of us. Now, we're having an impact, but we need a lot more of me and you, Bill.

36:05 Yeah. To have to take it 10x. I mean, this year, if you look at the HUD numbers, we're going to be about 32,000 closed reverses for the year. 32,000 nationally. Okay, that's pitiful. Pitiful. Terrible numbers. That's every single company combined.

36:24 Well, there's probably a h 100,000 they're not being done that would unlock purchase. Here's another whole thing. We have people my age who aren't moving because they have a first mortgage with a balance of, let's say, $400,000 on their million and a half house at 3% interest. I go, "Well, I don't want to take my 3% interest mortgage and buy another house and get a 7% mortgage or 6% mortgage because I'm going to double my house payment or double my interest." And I say to him, "Well, you know, in reality, you could have no payment. Or you could actually take cash out and use that for investment. You could use that for paying off your other there's a million things you could do with that perhaps with that money that might make sense. Don't look at it as a mortgage to mortgage necessarily. Look as a mortgage to here's another tool that might unlock for you all kinds of possibilities and there are people I know who are again I'm not moving because my grandkids live five blocks away I'm not going anywhere just FYI but and they love my backyard that said I have neighbors who would move but for they're locked in because of their mortgage balance

37:27 Yeah they got two and a half rate 3% locked they think they're locked in but they could do a subject two they could get a reverse mortgage somewhere else they could buy the house and rent there's a million possibilities and the more tools you have, the more opportunities you have to sell those. And I believe there's probably about 100,000 houses locked up that could be unlocked just sharing that tool with people and helping them the best way to find that for themselves. And so that's why Realtors® need to learn this tool. That's why originators have to get better at teaching Realtors® how to do this tool and originators have to get better at doing with their clients family and sphere in order to broadcast this. And you use the word evangelize. I think that's really true. I think this product needs evangelists and there's more people out there. So, let me just ask you one last question. I'm a little over time, but you're too valable to let go. So many originators are struggling. I don't know about C2 and I don't mean to disparage your company in any way, but on average loan originators are having a tough time. Yeah, they got some refinance coming in because of drop in rates, but the purchase business and their kind of their base business has been for the last few years really struggling. And I just see more and more originators getting out of the business, toning down their needs. The top ones are making a fortune, but that middle class is really struggled. And here's a solution for them. What do you what would you say to that person who's been struggling and almost feels too beat up to make the time? And let's be honest, anything you do takes some time to see results. You're not going to become an originator of reverse mortgages in 30 days and get your first deal and close it. It's going to take time to build up the procedures, the processes, the talk, the pipeline, the leads, the closings. What do you say to them to say, "Hey, you can make this happen. You can make this transition or make this addition to your business."

39:11 Well, you mentioned an idea like about the purchasing and the buying and all that. There's different ways to bring it in. Right now, the market's been tough. It's been a tough year. Now, we're up significantly year-over-year. We're up 20% 26%. Say that again. 26% year-over-year. And we're doing well. A lot of that is we have more loan officers in the game that are doing reverses and then we've had some products that have come out to make things a little better like the proprietary loans are getting a little better loan to values. There's a second mortgage product out there now. So for people that have a two and 3% rate that don't want to touch it. Do you know that six out of 10 borrowers that are taking home equity lines are over the age of 55? So, six out of 10 borrowers that are borrowing money out of their house equity-wise are, and there's a lot of that numbers because there's a lot of baby boomers that are in that age group that are over 55. They're all 60 plus. But the point is, you asked the question, what do I tell this loan officer? There's three things. If you are trying to survive the loan business, rates have been terrible the last three years. We're starting to see some rates get a little better. We're seeing reverse and forward mortgage rates are getting a little better and that helps. But here's the thing. Look for opportunities in your database

40:28 And the sphere that you have. Yes, Bill brought up an example of one of them. One is that purchase business. When people are going to buy a home, a lot of people who are not your client anymore are paying cash. If you're a loan officer, people that pay cash aren't your client. So, Bill's bringing up those people could be a potential person. There's one. One is look for people that are in your database that have either a lot of equity in their home or house paid off. This means you probably did a 15-year mortgage for them. Even go back to COVID, this is five years ago, they did a 1.75 or two and a quarter% 15 year. That client is likely not going to be your client any longer. You'll probably never come back for another loan ever. If they do, it's a it's a heliloc or something. So, you should consider looking at your database with people that have significant equity and reverse is an option for them. It could be an option for a purchase. It could be an option for a refinance. Lots of things. Next is this. When you're looking at your database and you're looking at people, this is an easy way to extract and make business out of thin air. Don't again ask for business. Don't reach out to your clients to say, "Hey, I'm catching up with you." We talked about this earlier. That's the annual preview system that Bill's going to share out. It's offer value. When you reach out to your client and you have conversations with your sphere, try to give them something they need. And a lot of people are needing help with their finances right now because money is not cheap. If they do have debt, it's racking up. If they have other kind of debts like credit cards, cars, whatever, you know, what are they going to do? Put it into a heliloc at 8, eight and a half? They have all these questions. So, when you're reaching out and connecting, I don't have time to go through this in detail, but the annual preview form that Bill will share will help you. It's connecting and connecting and asking the right questions so you can get them the help they need. A lot of clients are underinsured, their houses are underinsured. There's different value you can offer them. And you're going to see business spring out of thin air by going through that preview form. And Bill, not only I have a whole class on how that preview form works, but that's the second thing.

42:31 The last thing is this. I think the overwhelming way to bring in business for loan officers and like you said, you're not going to close reverse in 30 days. The incubation time for people to grasp it, take it through. You have to get counseling done. There's other steps to reverse mortgage. So even if today you're saying, I want to start in this business, you need to do this. You need to not think that you understand this product and who it's for. You need to learn all the nuances, the language of reverse mortgages. It's going to take some time. You're going to have to read some books like by Dan Hultquist, understanding reverse, Dr. Wade Pfau's book, which is the retirement researchers guide to reverse mortgages. Do some learn this language. A lot of people that are for loan officers think I can come in and I'm going to be able to speak this language fluently. I like to call it Spanish.

43:23 Maybe you speak Spanish. I don't. But let's use the example. You think you know taco, burrito, and salsa, enchilada, but I don't speak Spanish. I know some words, right?

43:33 When reversed, you might know some of the terms and some of the terminology from being a loan officer for 20 plus years, but this language is a little different. So, make sure you're getting that research done by being on Bill's podcast and listening to others, by reading some books, by reading the notes. That's a great idea. Reading the deed of trust, reading the information about this loan. That's going to give you the knowledge so that you can be a lot more successful.

44:00 Shain, we going for a long time. I got a little long here with you already. I really appreciate the time, but more than that, you really help me launch this thing. You know, last year and as a result, I've talked to some of the best originators in the country. You offer I know a fantastic resource. I want call it a coaching call but it's kind of like a coaching call monthly on reverse I think you call it real reverse

44:23 Reverse truth reverse truth training and it's on the first Tuesday of the month the next one's October 7th so talk a little bit what's your goal in that program what are you trying to do and how are you trying to help people

44:33 Same thing you're doing here it's open to anyone it's not a C2 call it's open anyways it's the it's at 10 a.m. Pacific time. It's the first Tuesday of every month. So, anybody's welcome to join any company, whether you're a reverse loan officer or forward loan officer or financial adviser. We have people from all different walks come. Goal is to teach people the truth about reverse mortgages and really give basic education to more meat as well. We go through I have a financial adviser coming on this next call. So on October 7th, we're going to have a financial adviser talk about how we talk about this with our clients, how we present this with each other, how we work together. So if you want to learn how to talk to financial advisors, bring in business fronted financial advisors. So we're trying to offer value to do exactly what you're doing with this podcast. Spread the word, the good news.

45:23 Well, look, Shain's fantastic. Their contact information down below as well. [phone number] is the phone number. His C2 Financial email is the email address. Shain's one of the great resources of this industry and Ch I just want to thank you so much for your time today as well as your support for the industry overall. You've been a real great resource for me to learn a lot. I really appreciate it.

45:45 Thank you, Bill. Have a good day. Thanks so much. And for the rest of you, this was Verse Mortgage Podcast. We do this every week, a new episode usually with originators, managers, vendors in the business to help us learn more about this product. Whether you're an originator or a real estate agent like me or an attorney or financial planner, we want to learn how to be of better service to our customers. If I can help, please reach out. We'll put in the show notes the form that Shain's going to share with us as well as if I can reach out help any other way, reach out at Billgross Probate on social media and my descript my details down below. As always, make today your best day ever. Thanks so much.