Realtors® Are Missing This Opportunity, with Tim Kennedy of Movement Mortgage

0:00 I'm ready. I'm ready. A lot of real estate agents talk about it being a tough market, but there is a tremendous missed opportunity that we talk about regularly inverse mortgage, but one of the experts in the area is Tim Kennedy from Movement Mortgage. Tim, what do you think? What do you see? We talked about it as the big missed opportunity for real estate agents that can do more business or mortgage originators can generate more business with this with the strategy. What do you think it is?

0:23 Yeah, sure. So, I spend a lot of time speaking with broker owners and Realtors® on the premise of the home equity conversion mortgage, aka reverse mortgage, using it as a reverse for purchase for homeowners over the age of 62 that may not necessarily qualify for a traditional or conventional mortgage. Or you know maybe you know maybe they need the proceeds from the sale of their existing home you know for retirement purposes. So the reverse for purchase is an opportunity for homeowners to purchase a home with one transaction. You know years ago prior to 2009 you would you would have to purchase the home first for cash or a traditional mortgage and then take out the reverse mortgage you know a month or two later. Now, we can actually do that whole process at one transaction at the closing table and an individual can purchase a home over the age of 62 with the use of a reverse mortgage. How does it help Realtors®? Well, ve very easily. You know, number one, that product can help them increase their listings, you know, get more listings that are out there. Find more home buyers, you know, individuals that are looking to purchase a home later on in life in retirement, whether they're relocating to family or upsizing or rightsizing or even today age with you know, gray and silver divorce. You know, we can help those ini individuals purchase a home with the use of a reverse for purchase. And last but not least, the Realtors® can possibly help their buyers by increasing their purchase power. You know, now we're giving them the opportunity to purchase something maybe at a higher market, you know, or a different community, different level.

2:18 So, you say that I'm embarrassed to admit I've been in the business for decades. I started as an originator. I actually did a couple verses. I call verse 1.0 know because I got out of lending in 2008. So I probably did a couple like in 2005 era and I thought they're great product but you know I just didn't see a plan at the time that worked for me. There wasn't a company that I could support a lot of personal stuff but my point is I did a couple of them. So recently I was looking to buy a house. I live in California for tax reasons and personal reasons. I'd love to move to Florida where I used to live and was married with my wife and you know we can't afford to sell our house and move there for personal reasons but we want to be near our grandkids but I thought I could move make that my residence and I want to sell the house but I have some cash and I'm shopping and frustrated and I was talking to I don't know it was you or one of your colleagues he said well have you considered reverse instead of cash I thought can I do that he said yeah instead of whatever it was you could buy x plus 30% or more based on what you qualify for. Well, I could buy 30% more house just by getting reverse mortgage. That makes sense. Why would I not do that?

3:33 Now, the answer is I wouldn't do it because I want to get divorced. My wife's not letting me move to Florida. But the point is, as a Realtor®, if you can help your customer shop at a 30 or 40% higher price point than a cash buyer and still not have a payment, you're a hero to your customer.

3:49 You're a hero to your clients. Yes. And they still get to keep, you know, a pretty good percentage of the proceeds from the sale of their existing home. Bill, I'm sure you're aware of this and I'm not too sure if many Realtors® are, but you know, over 50% of the listings today are homeowners over the age of 62. And over 40% of those sellers are purchasing other homes. The baby boomers are purchasing homes in retirement. You know, when you talk to Realtors®, you know, they're focusing on the millennials or the you know, the Hispanic community and because they're purchasing homes, first-time home buyers, but the truth of the matter is the biggest demographic today is still the baby boomers and Gen X.

4:42 Yeah. I think I always wonder that myself. You know, I work like you do for a big corporation. And I run my own business, but I'm associate with a large company and all the marketing at all the companies, your company and my company, not at all of them. It always focused on some young kid dancing around on an Instagram video to sell houses. I'm thinking I wouldn't choose that guy to sell my house. Why would I even think about somebody who's not serious? And I think that the key part though that's missing instead of all the fluff is there's a lack of education. And this is why I launched this podcast because if I don't know these things, I'm a, you know, in most rooms, I'm one of the smarter people. I'm certainly one of the most experienced people in real estate being around as long as I have been. I'm a practitioner still.

5:27 So, if I don't know about, of course, you shouldn't pay cash for the house. Of course, you should get the maximum reverse mortgage you can. Don't buy more house than you need. Don't buy more house than you can afford. But once you make that decision, use reverse to leverage that. Why would you not? We need to get word out to real estate agents and originators to promote this to agar. It's a little harder maybe sale, but the harder work is what generates the value in the long run.

5:53 Well, and here's the biggest issue that we have when speaking or talking or promoting reverse mortgages is kind of what you mentioned earlier. You know, you did a reverse or two back in 2005.

6:06 Well, 2005 was the wild west. Yes. You know, that was prior to the collapse. That was prior to the Dodd-Frank Financial Reform Act, and that was prior to all the changes that HUD and FHA and the Yes. The bankers associations and NRMLA, you know, over the last 15 years or so, there have been so many changes to the reverse mortgage. It's not the same product,

6:34 Correct? That you sold back in 2005. You know, and that's what people like me think they know something about it. What they know is all wrong because what they know was the reason why those changes were made and the product was so dramatically improved.

6:48 Yeah. I mean, if you walk out the out the door and talk to your neighbor about a reverse mortgage, they're going to grab their chest. They're going to take two steps back and they're going to say, "Not a reverse mortgage. The bank or the government's going to steal your home. They're going to take your home." And that's the furthest from the truth. A reverse mortgage in four simple words. It's just a mortgage.

7:07 It's no different than the mortgages we have now on my like on my home for example. But every month I'm required and obligated to make a mortgage payment. With the reverse mortgage, you are obligated and responsible to pay that mortgage back when you leave that home permanently. Whether it's in 12 months, 12 years, or 42 years, you know, that's when the mortgage gets paid back. When you leave that home permanently.

7:33 So, we have two groups we need to we need to educate here because and my research tells me that and I've heard this number confirmed with other people. I came this number on my own and then other people confirmed it that as a market we're doing about one-tenth as many reverse mortgages as we should. And one of the biggest untapped se segments of that is buyers paying for cash when at the same time they could do a reverse mortgage and conserve some of the cash for a later date. It makes all the sense in the world to protect your equity and tax. There's a million reasons why. So there's two people we have to educate here, right? In addition and so I have the podcast but one group is the consumer the other group is the Realtor® because they know that when if a customer is educated and goes to a Realtor® the Realtors® are go oh I don't know how to do that I nobody who does that they call the local loan guy the local loan guy who's doing you know FHA and VA forward loans is going to say well they're hard to do they're complicated doesn't tell them he doesn't get compensated for those or his companies let him do those

8:37 There's a lot of reasons a lot of friction in the process that we want to eliminate so let's talk about step One, obviously we're on this podcast and I appreciate you helping me in giving the marketplace at least enough information to say, "Hey, I should ask about this." Now, what does a consumer, let's say that they are looking to buy a house, they like to know more. They're not ready to get a reverse mortgage, but it sounds intriguing. What's the next step? If somebody calls you, like what's the process you do? Because they're not going to put their biggest investment in your hands without

9:06 Being comfortable and confident. So what's the next step look like to help them get comfortable enough to make that decision? Well, let's talk about the consumer, right? In most scenarios, se 70% of their net worth is tied up in the equity of their homes.

9:26 Yes. So they need that equity in their homes as part of their retirement income plan. Correct?

9:35 So what happens? They sell the home that they're currently in, the home that they most likely raise their children in. Like my house, I have a 3500 square foot four bedroomedroom, two and a half bath center hall colonial. My wife and I need that home like we need a hole in the head, right? And we're and eventually we're going to relocate into a smaller home or closer to the children or maybe to Florida to a warmer state, a tax friendly state. But the idea is instead of me selling my home and using the proceeds from the sale of that home, 100% of it and purchasing something in Florida cash, which now is going to limit or minimize the amount of money I'll be able to spend in retirement. So the idea is when we're speaking to the consumer, it's not reverse mortgage cash or traditional mortgage where now you're obligated to a monthly payment. The idea is, you know, how much money are you going to have in retirement? What's your cash flow going to look like? Now, let's pick Now, let's pick out a bucket one, two, or three. Are you going to go with a conventional mortgage and be locked into a principal interest payment for the remainder of your life? You know, if you're 65 and take out a 30-year mortgage, you're obligated to pay that loan till you're 95.

10:49 That's basically your whole life, the remainder of your life. Do you want to use the cash from your existing home? Or maybe let's find a home that satisfies your wants and needs.

11:01 Let's use a reverse mortgage where you'll keep a percentage from the proceeds from your existing home. We would finance the difference and now you can live in a home without the obligation of a principal and interest payment for the rest of your life in retirement and still be able to keep a good chunk of money from the sale of your existing home in the bank. So let's look at some numbers. For example, I sell my house here in New York for a million dollar. I go to Florida. I want to buy a $700,000 home. Yeah, sure. I could put $700,000 down and keep $300,000 in the bank and live there rent free, pay 100% cash and not have a monthly payment. That's option number one. I could possibly qualify for a traditional mortgage and now have a mortgage payment for the rest of my life. Or maybe I take out a reverse mortgage reverse for purchase where we'll use 50%. Where I would put down 350,000 movement mortgage would finance the other 350,000 and now I get to keep is that $450,000 in the bank

12:18 Or no mortgage payment purposes with no mortgage payment. Yeah. And so the income from that 450 or 350 that's extra income or extra accumulation of capital for you. Yeah. And do you realize homeowners today over the age of 62 are carrying $14 trillion of home equity?

12:44 Yeah. So and do you realize there's only and that's only in the United States of America. Do you realize there's only 11 trillion dollars worth of gold on the entire globe?

12:55 Wow. So just imagine that. So $14 trillion of home equity and we really should be having the conversation of that equity as part of a retirement income plan. And the reverse for purchase just satisfies so many or checks off so many different boxes when somebody wants to, you know, quit their job, retire, and relocate. Now, this isn't free, meaning for the consumer, you know, $350,000 loan, even though they'll make payments on it, they're going to get charged interest, so it grows. But they also have to pay closing costs at the close of escrow, right? So what are the now you have an escro either way you have a title either way that's why it's good to do on the purchase what's the cost of the loan portion to do reverse mortgage on a purchase as a general rule.

13:48 Sure. So for all intents purposes the reverse mortgage that you and I discussing today is the home equity conversion mortgage. It's managed by HUD and it's federally insured by FHA. So, there's a mortgage insurance cost that goes right to the federal government. There's an origination fee that goes to the lender to Movement Mortgage. That's how I get paid. And Movement Mortgage gets paid. And then there are your title fees, your recording fees, your bank fees, attorney fees, all the other stuff.

14:20 So, yes, there are closing costs. Nobody rides for free, right? You know, everybody gets paid. And then if you're not making payments on a reverse mortgage, because you're not required to. You can if you want to. People also misunderstand that part. I have a lot of clients that can afford a mortgage, but they prefer to take out the reverse mortgage because now they now they have the option of making a payment or not making a payment. But

14:46 At the end of the day, when that homeowner leaves that home permanently, whether they, you know, God has other plans for them and takes them home or, you know, maybe they have to go to an assisted living or maybe they're selling the home and relocating again. Well, when that when they vacate that home permanently, the reverse mortgage becomes due and payable. And yes, they pay back the balance of the money they borrowed plus any acred interest over the last 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 years.

15:16 And then Bill, and this is the important part, any remaining equity in that home is still theirs, right? Doesn't go to the bank, doesn't go to the government, it's their house, it's their equity,

15:29 Right? That's the biggest misconception. Yeah. That's I mean, that's one of them. I that they turn over the house. And the other part is that they're at risk of foreclosure. And the answer there is they are in a sense that if you call one of these 1-800 numbers and you never meet with a mortgage professional and your parents pass, that house is somewhat at risk unless somebody figures out the pathway. That's how I got involved in this business. I folks in probate real estate. People call me and say, "Hey, mom and dad passed, you know, a year ago and the property's in forclosure and the sale set for three weeks. Can you help us? And the answer is I can't. There are things I can do. But better than that is meet a professional who sets up the family for that transition early in the game. Right? That's the difference between getting an 800 number and getting a product or service online and having relationship. So, talk a little bit about how do you coach up families when they're getting the loan so that when they want to pay off the loan or they have to pay off the loan when their time's up that the process is as simple as really call you and help you give the opportunity to quarterback solution. So yeah, when I when I'm speaking to a client, I always highly recommend that not only do I sit with them, but I also sit with their with the person that's helping them, their decision maker, whether it's an attorney, a CPA, a child, a brother, sister, relative. You know, I always want that other person sitting at the kitchen table. So it's just not me and the client, but someone else is hearing how this works. And I'll tell you a funny story. I had a client call me up a couple of months ago and he says, "Oh, Tim, I don't know what to do. My mom died. You know, they're going to come and take the house." And I said, "No, nobody's coming to take your house." I didn't know your mom passed away. When did your mom pass away? And he said, "Oh, about an hour ago." I said, "An hour ago." I said, "How about how about you go take care of your

17:30 Family and your mother and whatever you need to do. Call me when things settle down and I'll tell you how this all works. But the truth of the matter, Bill, is when the last surviving spouse leaves that home permanently. Yes, that mortgage is due and payable. It has to get paid, but they have the family or the estate has six months to figure out do they want to pay off the reverse mortgage and keep the home or they're going to put a for sale sign out front and sell the home. And if there's any delays like probate delays or maybe remodeling delays or fixing up the house delays, if there are any delays, HUD can issue two threemonth extensions. So ideally, they have up to 12 months to figure out, you know, what they're going to do with that home. And the truth of the matter is, as long as you're communicating with the servicer,

18:26 You know, they're going to work with you. It's still going to go through the process, but nobody's coming the board up the windows and changed the locks in the door.

18:35 Well, I so I don't want to be argumentative, but I'm present a little different take on the last piece, which is on the six month the extensions, the terms of the mortgage, the note or deed of trust say the servicer may provide one or two extensions. Not that they're required to

18:58 Now by policy they're supposed to be reasonable. In my experience, they never will grant an exception short an attorney writing a threatening letter and or threatening in California to force the lender to come to court. And even then, the servicer will sell it to and at least in California, they sell the servicing rights to a basically a foreclosure company who it's just a straight downhill push to either foreclose or force you to sell. And so I would I always caution families, never believe anything they tell you on the phone. Only believe what they give you in writing. If they don't give you the extension writing, you don't have it. And I and again I know that you know movement's a national company and I think you know you're in the east coast where people a little nicer. I'm in California where companies are scared to do business with us and rightfully so. I would say at least in California my experience is you have six months. You might get three more months. Don't count on it and don't plan on it. Now again I don't mean to argumentative. I'm just saying that's my experience. I've never seen one

20:03 Where we didn't go to court and have a judge make them and that's expensive. It costs lawyers fees and time and effort and is risky. So I That's interesting. That's the first Yeah, that's interesting because that's the first I'm hearing of that. I'll have to do some homework on that. Yeah.

20:17 And my in California and that's the limit of my experience, but I've done a bunch of these and we regularly go to court to ask for because customers call me and say they've given up or attorney doesn't know they can get it. But an experienced probate attorney knows you can get what's called an ex parte, which means one party goes forward and says we need to protect the estate. In California, the law is for the protection of the estate. So even though it might not be fair to the lender, the judge's job is to protect the state and they will almost always, if you made reasonable effort and document it, give you an extension from foreclosure. But I wouldn't bet on that either. Like I said, assume the worst and put yourself in position to move right away because these are and I don't mean to scare anybody. I what I want to do is get you to work with professionals. I am sure if you call Tim he knows who the servicer is at his company and he knows his company has relations with the servicesers they sell their loans to. That's the benefit of working with a movement mortgage. Their name is on the loan. They're a brand that has to protect the reputation and Tim chooses affiliate there because of that. Maybe these companies not the 800 number company. They don't care. They let me just tell you one thing. They don't care. That's why they have to advertise on television rather than have people like Tim available. So, anyhow, I'm on my soap box. I'm gonna get off a little bit. Forgive me with that.

21:35 So, we talk about educating the consumer piece, which is important, but the other part of a Realtor®, meaning you may have somebody who watches this and goes, "Wow, this sounds great. Oh, perfect. I can save some money. Oh, wow. More money in my pocket. Great. Tim's a great guy. He's handsome. He sounds nice. I want to get a reverse mortgage to buy my house." and they call the local Realtor® and the Realtor® says,"Oh no, those are hard to do. They're that you're going to lose your h all the things that were true 20 years ago. You're going to lose your house." and all that. So, let's talk about educating the Realtors®. Obviously, I have this podcast to re educate the ones that I know.

22:08 Obviously, I want to encourage them to work with professionals like you to educate them, but what do what do you do and what can we do to help the Realtors® explore this tool? Well, we talked about the beginning, it's a it's a big opportunity in this market where sellers are tough to distinguish yourself. What can we do to help the Realtors® take the step and learn about the product so they're comfortable and confident in sharing it?

22:29 Yeah. It's just getting the word out there and the education because ideally when somebody calls up and says, "Hey, you know, I want to sell my home and buy something else." Well, the Realtors® are high-fiving themselves because now it's a cash transaction. There's no lenders. There's no attorney, you know, no the it's just them and the seller and buyer and it's cash. It's very easy. But if we can get if we can get past that and the where the Realtors® can understand they can increase their business

22:55 Right by getting more listings and more buyers and increase their buyers purchase power which will increase their commissions. You know, yeah, you know, they might be get they may get a cash deal and close in 30 days, but why not get a higher commission and maybe you close in 35 or 40 days to a reverse mortgage is no different than any other mortgage, right? It's New York, it's 30, you know, 25 days, right? So the process isn't any different than any other mortgage and it's actually easier to qualify for you because we're not looking at strict debt to income ratios or FICO scores.

23:41 Well, and I also think for the real flexibility on the appraisal, right? Because of the value, they're coming in with a lot of cash to begin with. It's not like they're a 3% down buyer where all they have in the world is their 3%. And so even if appraisal comes lower, as a as a listing agent, I would love it. And like you said, no income requirements. There's no last minute credit problems. There's no last minute they lost their job problems. It's really a whole different experience. So, to me,

24:08 Realtors® should love this. And yet, we just don't seem to know enough about it. And so, that's why I do this podcast and I know, you do like seminars and webinars and talk to real estate agents and we want to get the word out there that take a look at this product and dig a little deeper. See if you can't make some extra sales and make some happy customers.

24:25 So, do you realize Yeah. Do you realize a reverse for purchase if there's if the buyer is 65 years old, they're going to qualify somewhere between a 35 and 40% loan to value mortgage. So if they're purchasing a million I'm shopping for it, so I know

24:42 It's real. You're not making this up. This is real. Yeah. So if you're purchasing a million dollar home, you still had to put down roughly $650,000. That's a good buyer. That's a pretty That's a pretty hefty down payment,

24:55 Right? You know, and that's the part Realtors® have to understand. It's not that, you know, it's a flimsy buyer, reverse mortgage, and of income. No, they're putting down a hefty down payment. They're a strong buyer.

25:06 And if they were 80 years old, you know, maybe they're putting down 50%. They're going to put 500,000, finance 500,000 and now live in this million- dollar home without a principal and interest payment for the rest of their lives in retirement. Well, and like in my neighborhood, you know, I don't think there's a chance we're going to move, but I'm always looking because I look at properties just to be in the market. And,

25:27 You know, we have a bigger house. It's two-story. At some point, we have to do something because our master bedroom's upstairs and my wife and I are getting older and you know, that's just inevitable. And, you know, I was looking at a million and a half dollar house. Yeah. But I only need to come up with $900,000. And so, do we keep this as a rental? You know, how do we make all that work? But the answer is I don't need a million and a half to buy a million and a half house. I need about 900,000 to buy a million and a half. Well, that's a little more doable. And so I think that gets to be a case where Realtors® should be looking at this. You take instead of me having a million dollars cash and looking at a million dollar house, I can take a million dollars cash and buy a $ 1.5 million house. That's a that opens up a lot more options.

26:08 My wife's a lot happier with some of those options than she was at the million-dollar options. Yeah. It doesn't lock you into a specific area or price range. You know, like you just said, instead of buying a million- dollar home, you could put a million dollars and buy a $2 million home, right? And it's still the same cost, but maybe now you're in a gated community with a clubhouse and a pool and overlooking the ninth hole right on the golf course. You know, it changes the whole perspective of what you can buy. And getting back to the Realtors®, you know, now, you know, they earn a bigger commission because they're not selling the million-dollar home. Now they're selling the 1.5 or the $2 million home. And listen, you know, it's okay to earn a commission, right? You know, we work hard for a commission. For the record, yes, commissions are good.

26:56 Well, I my coach initially taught me that the money we get paid is a reflection of the value we create for other people. So when I sell a house for a seller and they're happy with the equity they get, I get a piece of that. U I only get it if they're happy and we close the deals. So yeah, definitely commissions are a good thing.

27:12 So let's you have to wrap up a little bit. I appreciate your time. I caught you on a Friday afternoon. I really appreciate you making time for us. For those who are watching us does not get paid for this interview and this is a freebie because we both are in alignment trying to educate the market.

27:25 You know, both you and I have been around for a while. Neither one of us are spring check-ins. You just talk about the industry for a second that my thesis is that there should be about 10 times as many reverse mortgages done as there are now. That means companies like Movement Mortgage, I'm sure, are looking for new originators, whether it be brand new to the industry in reverse or moving originators from forward to specializing in reverse. And I know at Movement you guys have a specialization program. I mean, you can't really do both. You have to be fish or foul. Can't think play both ways, which I respect a lot. I think that's

28:01 Very commendable. Very hard to do otherwise. But let's talk about let's talk to that originator who you know them. They're a forward originator doing regular mortgages. They're struggling. They're doing whatever it is, a couple deals less than they needed to do for the year. They're getting by but not really building a business. This to me seems like such a great niche to be in because you're helping people. You're dealing with professionals a lot. It's hard work still. I get that. It's harder in some regards and easier in some regards. Talk a little bit to that mortgage professional that you think should consider specializing here to do the work to learn how to do it properly. Talk as whether they should consider or what type of originator should consider that transition.

28:42 So again, yeah, with the mortgage loan originators out there, we can help them increase their business. Why? Well, I was talking to a loan officer the other goes, "Yeah, Tim, you know, you know, reverses, you know, seniors, it's really not my market. I deal a lot with the 30some year olds.

28:59 And I said, "Yes, I know that." I said, "But do you know those 30some year olds have parents and grandparents?" Yeah. You know, you're missing that whole part of the market. So, when you're speaking to that 30some year old, you know, find out more about them and their family and their parents and their grandparents. And it's a whole other niche product that you never thought is or didn't even think was there. Not only that, but like for the mortgage originators that have been in the business for a while, why don't we go back into their database because you know there's gold in those hills. Let's go back into their database. How many individuals did you sell a home to that was 50 years old 15 years ago,

29:44 Right? And now they're 65. Why don't we call them up? Let's do an AMR. Let's do a annual mortgage review. Let's figure out where they are, where they want to go. And you know maybe they want to stay in their home, reverse mortgage, let them stay in the home or maybe they want to relocate and we call them at the opportune time. Now we can help them and walk them through the idea of a reverse for purchase. It's they're just walking away from the money

30:08 On top of refer that listing to a real estate agent that you want to work with as well. Work together as a team. That's right. I think that's the other part. Then you refer that business out. Yeah.

30:16 You refer business out and same with the purchase. You find agents that real estate agents that are in the markets that your buyers are moving to. You know, I'm not that agent, but if I was, I would have best friends in Florida and Scottdale and Las Vegas and refer them business, expect them to refer me leads to come into them as well. And so, I think it's a tremendous opportunity. Look, Tim, I you and I going forever. I've gone a little long and again, I want to be mindful it's a Friday and we caught you kind of in action today. You know, thanks for your time. For somebody who wants to get a hold of you, I have your contact info on the screen. Phone number [phone number]. Is that the best way to get a hold of you?

30:54 Best way to get a hold of me. Yep. And it's my website is timtalksreverse.com. Okay. So Tim talks reverse, you know, and I know that from the last time that we did this and I didn't keep that. I'm sorry about that because it's just too easy. Your company movement does a really good job of providing the company thing, but that forwards to your company website, tim talks.com. And again, if and if you can't get a hold of them that way, reach out to me. I'd be more glad to put you guys together. Tim's been a great asset to our to our industry and to Reverse Mortgage Podcast. I appreciate it. Tim, thanks so much. Have a great weekend. We'll talk again soon.

31:31 Bill, thank you. I appreciate the time. Thank you. And for the rest of you, this is the Reverse Mortgage Podcast. We get together every week and we interview typically top reverse mortgage originators, managers, vendors to learn how to better service our customers and be in the business. If I can help, I'm at Bill Gross Probate. Feel free to reach out to me. Call, text, or email. Also, if you want to be on the podcast, be interviewed, reach out to me. Or if you know somebody who should be, feel free to refer them. We're always looking for good guests. Again, if I can help anyway, please reach out. And as always, make today your best day ever. Thanks so much.