Borrow Smart Reverse, with John Thompson of SMPL Mortgage

0:01 Welcome to the Reverse Mortgage Podcast I'm Bill Gross at Bill Gross probate and social media and I have again today's our guest John Thompson who is a liability adviser we're GNA find what that means with a company s smpl mortgage but the tagline and the website the place to get information from him is borrow smart I need to get this right so let me sure right bmart reverse.com John thanks for coming back to our program no you're welcome thank you Bill it's a pleasure to be here again looking forward to it so I've been around quite a while and I never heard of the T title liability adviser what's a liability adviser you know at the end of the day people you know tend to think about managing their sort of their life around the money they have and so forth right so there's lots of ideas and thoughts around how you manage money how you grow money how you create Financial wealth and so forth but very little time is spent on thinking about the liabilities the reality is I believe that for most people spend a little bit more time focusing on the liability side of their personal balance sheet and getting their cash flow better and so forth they'll actually add to their wealth over time anyway so we focus on the liability side we let the financial professionals that work on the asset side do their work and then we're on the liability side so that's what we do now when you say liability I think what you're saying is to strategically manage the liability so that it can be an asset right not you're not talking about we're not talking about insurance necessarily or avoiding being sued but the mortgage lean is a liability and one can have a regular mortgage a reverse mortgage cannot have a mortgage can have a line of credit all those are strategies using the mortgage liability Side Of The Ledger but using it strategically almost like an asset is that a fair assessment no that's great thank you I think you've said it far better than I could so thank you Bill at the end of the day you're right yeah most people think of liabilities you know they're worried about risk and being sued and that sort of thing but really talking about the context mostly of mortgages right so we're in the

2:03 Mortgage business we only get paid to do mortgages but at the end of the day that's just one element of liabilities people have other sorts of debts they have student loans and car loans and credit cards and all these other kind of things they're all wound together at the end of the day and again I feel that the better decisions you make around all these liabilities or debts payments you have you know the better job you'll do in managing your other assets and because we're both connected through real estate you know real estate is both an asset and in many ways a liability right and people don't always understand the interplay between those two things at the same time I think also people tend to think of a loan whether be a mortgage or car loan or student loan or credit card as a siloed decision and just like on the asset side you should think about your stocks your bonds your real estate your collection collectible your gold whatever you have and it should be properly distributed and properly hedged and properly different types of assets are appropriate for you and who you are I think you're talking about on the liability side doing the same thing that perhaps rather than just buy get a buy a house and have a mortgage and pay it off in 30 years and forget about it you're really saying let's take a look at that whole side as a strategic activity and how can we maximize your results or minimize your costs absolutely and you said it perfectly when you said Silo you know people really do make many financial decisions in a silo meaning they're going to vacuum right they're not thinking about how the decision today on how much of a mortgage what the payment is all these elements of that how that affects every other element of their financial life right and so they make the decision they move on and then there's unintended consequences in many things that happen in the world but especially around personal finance there's unintended consequences so yeah that's where we're coming from it's aot it's a lot of fun it's really fascinating it is a unique approach I think into the world that we work in the mortgage side so yeah I think it's more complicated and more personal interaction with a customer than a

4:08 Regular mortgage where you're just trying to get the rate lock it in maybe execute get the loan done this is really about being part of the planning process so let's talk about first what are the options of reverse mortgages like what's the range of choices one has and then we can talk about some of the specific strategies on how to use those proper options for an individual customer sure no thank you at the end of day the majority of the marketplace around reverse mortgages is in a product that's the really the formal name is What's called the home equity conversion mortgage right kind of a fancy name what's it mean well home equity conversion converting Home Equity Mortgage right so you're using a mortgage to convert home equity into something else which is either a cash flow or a payment or line of credit and some things like that so that's about you know last numbers I saw maybe 95% of the marketplace and that home equity conversion mortgage is supported by the office of Housing and Urban Development HUD the FHA program so it's an FHA Federal housing Administration program they don't make the mortgages and they don't make the loans but they set the guidelines that we all follow in the industry across the United States the other sort of 5% in the marketplace is known by a couple different names they're proprietary jumbo private and so forth It's just they're loans that are made by private companies that are that don't necessar follow the same rules as the HECM rules right there's more flexibility in terms of the type of property the loan amounts and some things like that so different strategies come into play with those as well so those are the two major Pockets there may be some private stuff that I don't know about but those are the those are the things that we'll be talking about and that most consumers are aware of so in with within the realm though there's just a mortgage meaning you have a house you have Equity you're buying it and you agree to pay a certain amount of money back over time out of the equity you're not making mortgage payments but you agree to give up a certain am of equity over time and then there's the a loan where you don't take any of the money

6:15 But have the right to later Advance it an equity line of credit that's associated with a reverse mortgage and then there's maybe some inet where you can maybe get money on monthly payments and so talk a little bit about yeah given those three options getting all the lump sum getting a ly of credit and getting monthly payments how might one strategize those three particular choices yeah I think that's that's well said and I just want to go back to the point you said you know so when you when you have a reverse mortgage as opposed to a forward mortgage or a regular mortgage let's call that you're on a regular mortgage you're making payments over time it slowly goes down slowly goes down right on a reverse mortgage if you opt not to make payments and by the way many people don't realize that you can make payments on a reverse mortgage and there's many strategic reasons to make a payment on reverse mortgage maybe we'll talk about but if you don't make payments the balance will go up over time right because you're essentially borrowing from your Equity instead of making a payment you're borrowing from the equity so Bill as you pointed out there's really three ways to sort of access the amount of money you're eligible for and as you point there's a lump sum meaning that you can take let's just say you're eligible for $400,000 just for argument sake you know you can maybe take a lump sum of $200,000 and that's just cash that you have goes in your bank you could then maybe take payments of $500 or $600 a month and that's called a tenure like a professor's tenure like over your lifetime a tenure payment or there's the line of credit and so again sticking with our $400,000 example maybe you take 200 in cash maybe you take some payments for that uses up another $100,000 then maybe there's $100,000 left over in a line of credit the line of credit is really unique it's actually what I consider as an advising Prof profal the most unique part and the best part of the reverse mortgage that the line of credit grows so the portion you don't use is growing over time I it's getting bigger and bigger and bigger and this provides a lot of strategic benefits in terms of protection and so forth I think people are Ed the idea that if I have $100,000

8:17 In a savings account or an investment account that money is going up over time I can use it later on for stuff just like the line of credit in Reverse it's going up it's growing you don't make payments on it there's no interest on it but if when you need it's there for other purposes and so that's and you mix and match all those different things depending on your strategy and what you're trying to accomplish and so I think that obviously reverse mortgage the classic where you buy a house don't make payments that's a choice for some people and there some circumstances and I think that's fairly straightforward I think you know where you might take money out monthly maybe you're offsetting some major other expenses property taxes Insurance yeah medical insurance long-term care Insurance programs things like that I can see you know you set that up the line of credit I think is the one that's most underutilized for my customers that should have it because it seems to me that if you have the ability to protect your Equity with a line of credit in case of emergency you should have that set up when you don't need it so when you need the money it's available now it's like everything else in life trying to get customers to do things they don't need at the time they may in the future is challenging but I think like you like me You' probably had customers who set up the attic credit and something happened they didn't foresee and all of a sudden they can withdraw two three four $500,000 and either use that to buy something or to pay for to put into investment property of some sort talk up a little bit about the importance of planning when you don't need the equity to have access to it in case you might need it yeah I your spot on when you say it's the sort of the it's not the least utilized portion of it but it's the least understood about how it can use strategically right so I personally think that if you have a lot of home equity whether you're eligible for a reverse or not you should always have some sort of line of credit to have access to your Equity right because it's not liquid they could call a u Bill and sell the home but it might take 30 60 90 days to get their money right with a home equity line of credit which is

10:21 Different than a reverse but you have access to that money over time it's just a protection strategy so the reverse is kind of the same thing I think people are making a huge mistake when they either pay off their mortgage or buy home for cash and so forth they don't at the very least set up a line of credit or the HECM line of credit if they're it's available to them because it's going to grow and yeah there's costs and expenses for everything up front but we go through life we pay tens of thousands and sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars in insurance for car accidents we never had for I know home insurance is a difficult thing to think about right now with What's happen in LA in the last you know month or so but you know we pay for home insurance oftentimes with no tangible benefit that we see in life insurance all these things we have for you know at the end of the day the cost and expense of a reverse mortgage while not insignificant pales in comparison if you need that money later on and you can't get to it right that's the key thing and it can grow you can start at zero and literally it could be 10 years that it could be half a million dollars or more to have access to and people use it most I can tell you the most common strategy that we see is actually preparing for to pay for inhome care right so long-term care if they don't have insurance because it's gotten very expensive and it's not easily accessible you'd pay for long-term you'd pay for in home care through the reverse mortgage that's the most common reason that we see people setting it up with their financial planners and talking about that aspect of it or moving into Care Facility right so that's tricky because you the equity is there but you have to with a reverse mortgage you have to live in the home so if you need to move into a care facility and you're doing it for less than a year let's say you broke a leg you had a hip you something happened and one or other the spouse has had to go into a facility that is fine you can do that for up to 12 months after that point you're technically supposed to be back in the house right so it's not the kind of thing where you move the money and you move into a facility and you're gone for the rest of your life it's a short-term solution right

12:24 But you can you could take the money and buy the Care Facility you know the new home or whatever and then sell the residence but now you have the luxur of moving out before you sold the property versus trying to sell it while mom is in there and she's infirmed or whatever is going on I think that often times people are forced to make a decision because the equity is in the house versus well if we had $500,000 sure can we just move mom now and then conveniently get the house ready for sale and then sell it and yeah we'll pay off the mortgage lender we're not trying to scam them we want to pay it all back but we just want to do it in an early Manner and so that's the case that I've seen and I've also seen people not take advantage of because if you have the line of credit you people say well you know we have enough money to get through a few months yeah well that sounds great until the house burns down yeah sure that's all great until something happens and then all of a sudden now what do you do I lit have customers who that obviously in the policies that's the case where they were they moved out and they thought well we have a few months you know we have we have you know $45,000 cash and we can cover them onom for a while but now they can't sell the who knows whatever if it's you're going back to Advanced planning that you mentioned before right it's the same kind of thing very common situation we get the phone call again from the adult children your know Mom or Dad is you they burned through several hundred, in cash in the last couple years we're down to the point where in their they realized they're gonna have to pay for it or something else is going to happen they got to sell the house some's going to happen and they wait till they're down to two or three months right and now suddenly mom has to go to facility or dad or whatever and now they're not in the home and they can't qualify for the reverse mortgage because they're no longer in the home so you got to do this stuff in advance and be thinking it's just it's just a simple protection strategy learn about it see it might if it might work and then you make a decision from there I think commonly people like you and me I live in West I think you're in Pasadena or in sou California and people move out of California to retire in Arizona or Florida and maybe they sell their $2

14:26 Million Pasad house and they buy a much smaller nice new $500,000 Senior Living facility home in Pasad in Arizona sure they can take their first mortgage and just buy it for cash y and let the kids you know again now the mortgages do and they have to deal with that but you know the process is so different than when they're not planning ahead and I think that's the case right and you buy time right so if you have access that you have sit in there and you need to move they're buying time and buying the opportunity to do something else right and that's really what it is when people use the reverse mortgage as a as purchase money so if I'm moving to Florida and I have cash I can buy the place for 500,000 cash but I want to have that line of credit in place when I buy I always feel like it's always best to do that as the purchase because you have the tile Insurance in place and you have you know whatever other documents are done properly rather than buy for cash on refinance I think it's better just to do it with loan but it's not so often done what's the time period for somebody who wants to get a line of credit to purchase a property yeah maybe retirement committee another state so the program technical name just so if people hear it somewhere else if they're reading or doing research is called reverse for purchase R for p right and so yeah so a lot of people don't know you can use a reverse mortgage to purchase a property and yeah I agree with you 100% bill it you should do it at the time if you even if you could pay cash go ahead and get maybe a $200,000 reverse mortgage number one you get to keep part of your cash anyway and then number two you know you set it up because what we find happens people will pay the $500,000 for the property all get the reverse in two months 6 months 12 months and guess what happens they never do it until again it's too late right so they have the advantage of the transaction in place like you said they have title insurance they have people who are willing to help them at the time right is important right you got you got your Advocates you got your team behind you they'll get it done time frame is what you ask for you know quite frankly it's not much longer than a normal escro time period if we assume a normal escro period is 30 to 45 days

16:31 It runs about the same there's nothing really unique about the reverse mortgage process other than upfront where you have to do counseling and so if people are thinking about the option to do it they need to do counseling typically that might take a week or 10 days on the front end you don't want to end up in es for and that's have to do counseling because that will cost you time but if you're planning a little bit in advance and you think the reverse might be good you do the counseling get out of the way it's good for six months right and then you got all that time to do everything and then it's a normal time frame you can get a reverse mortgage for purchase done in 30 days and we've done we did one very recently and it went great and I think the other thing that you mentioned in passing and you can't brag about yourself but I will which is that if you do it at time of purchase you're and you ask your Realtor® who's a great reverse mortgage specialist you're going to get a great mortgage rep who specializes in the product I would refer you to John to do it whereas if you wait till later and you're in the house and you watch some TV ad and you call an 800 number you're going to get the kind of person who works for a company that gives you leads on an 800 TV ad and I can tell you professional it's not good you know 80% of all salese are terrible it's the top 10 or 20% that really get things done and so the opportunity when you buy the property is talk to your real estate professional and say well who's really good who can handle it in some cases let me ask you John are you licensed in multiple States you licensed in to do we are our firm The Firm that's backing us is licensed in 39 States now I'm personally licensed in four states and the rest of our team's licensed in about another four or five states mostly in the western us Arizona Colorado you know Washington Oregon you know so forth Idaho but you can do them you can assist us in Texas and Florida and other key places yeah so yeah and so when I say the company's licensed in 39 states that means that we have you know loan officers within our firm you know that we can send to them you know I trust them they're people we know and we would help with help our grand and important distinction I think one thing about real estate I've learned and that's why I do these podcasts is the

18:33 The key to business is working with the best people because it's like there's two worlds there's the world of you know you walk into Bank of America and ask for a reverse mortgage yeah you know anything there it's just a nightmare and yeah I'm sure even within companies like the big Banks the top five or 10% are really good but you can't find them walking in the branch you find them through real estate professionals and other you know attorneys and accounts who work with people and see the results and I think that's the keyy to this yeah it's well said and I'll point out that within the reverse mortgage space there is a maybe you're going to bring this up but there's a designation called crmp the certified reverse mortgage specialist crmp professional sorry crmp and it's a designation that's put out by nonprofit called the reversal mortgage normal National reverse mortgage lenders Association so a very well-connected industry nonprofit works with you know lenders and with our government to help put policy together and so forth anyway that designation is very difficult to get the only test I've failed is an adult there's less than 200 of us across the country that have that designation very difficult you have to have go through ethics and training you have to have three years of experience you have to have closed 50 reverse mortgages or more I me you have to get a recommendation from you know professional within the industry so a difficult designation to achieve but look for professionals that have taken the time and effort to learn more some certifications and so forth that's just one there are other certifications but that's the one that I believe is the highest level in our business today yeah I thank you for bringing that up because we spoke previously and you mentioned it and after we spoke I researched it I agree I think it is the preeminent not only that they have all the members information on a website directory not only that I have my virtual assistant take those and invite just those members only people on this podcast are going to be certified members through that organization and I just felt like you know because I know as a Realtor® every single lender I ever

20:38 Ask did you do reverse mortgages says yes they may have never done one they may not be able to spell the word reverse yeah but every lender will say yeah or I know is gu my yeah I could no you can't just say no it's okay just say no you there was a famous was it Nancy Reagan just say no to drugs just say no you can't do revers let the pr handle it just say no to the to the drug that is reversed but know it's yeah it's tough I'll just share a very quick story you know how I got into the reverse space I was asked for years to do them and I wouldn't do them because you know I G myself to a professional I'm not going to talk about anything sell anything teach anything educate anything if I don't completely understand that and feel confident to be able to share with my clients so I kept having financial advisor say you got to do this our client say we trust you we know you'll figure it out yes eventually I broke down and learned about it and got all the certifications and so forth my very first deal was for an insurance professional to help his mom because he said I trust you and you'll figure it out and so at some point I this was about 12 years ago and so now it's a it's a key part of our business I love doing it I love talking about it in teaching and educating not for everyone but where it fits it's a fantastic product as you know both so as a Realtor® I mean I'm technically I'm licensed and I also have a NLS license I don't do loans because just I my out of my of expertise I wasn't a loan originat for the firster I've done reverse mortgages that's why I appreciate the value of the product and I see the distinction in the difference between people don't I also as a real estate agent in Probate see how both they're underutilized and how there's a challenge with RSE mortgage I don't think this is really your area because it's more servicing which is that yeah because there's a mortgage payment made when the person who owns the product property and it's really the second or surviving spouse passes often times you know there's no mortgage being made and people oh wow this is great and we have this reverse mortgage well the death certificate has

22:41 Social security number which tells which gets reported Social Security which gets reported to the mortgage lender servicer who will then notify the people and say hey we see that you passed and you have I think it's six months and then there's a different process to review it I get involved there often times late in the game and so we actually have program to help those customers where we actually can refinance the reverse mortgage if you file the probate with us and that's becoming a more important part of our business and so I see this and saying wow I you know and I don't expect John for you to talk about the customer what happens when mom and dad die with the reverse mortgage because you hope that's 10 years down the road sure but it's a real part of the business and I think that mortgage servicers don't want to deal with it they just sell the servicing rights to a foreclosing company becomes a Prett ugly part of the process they do but it's an important part so to the degree that someone hears this at some point learns about it but yeah so if you have a family member friend and they've passed with the RSE mortgage there are steps you have to take and technically the minute that the serer finds out that the person's passed away they file in nood notice of default right so that means you're in default your mortgage which normally means a foreclosures coming now they do that because technically you are in default if the person's no longer alive you have to be alive to have a mortgage and so you're technically in default which is the same with any mortgage but people freak out because it's a reverse right so you need to notify the lender they'll give you sort of 90 days to tell you what you're going to do sell it refinance it if you're going to sell it and there's financing available through the program you just mentioned great go do that get it done but technically you have six months to then make a decision if you have nothing done at that point you know you can usually get two 90day extensions and so forth but the key to anything not river is communication right so as you pointed out bill yeah we hear from Realtors® all the time who've gotten involved there two or three months down the road and now they're like what do we do what do we do right and just you gotta call gotta be proactive and communicate the same for

24:43 Anybody so yeah I can where the truste sales scheduled like 10 days out and they haven't done it yet well you know they like we call the lender the lender said this lender said that well do they give you a writing no so you know this is not an area you know if you're talk about significant equity this is not an area to deal with on your own this is where you get professional help and I think again the people deal this stuff regularly the ones you want to turn to filing a probate can take months and so to think you're going to get the probate open to deal with it may or may not be the right answer certainly if you're going to do it has to be done properly and that's like I said that's why we've launched this podcast is to work with the best reverse mortgage lenders that get them the business and then also to help their customers when you get that phone call what do I do to be able to answer those questions as well so let's talk a little bit about kind of change it had a little bit and talk to I know you have a team of your own so we'll talk to them and your colleagues about you know what you see as the business opportunity going forward versus mortgage you see it growing expanding do you see it as just one of several pieces and what if anything are you doing in this particular Niche to help you build that business yeah no thank you so as you point out earlier it is a the reverse mortgage the HECM is a severely underutilized you know tool right I can't remember the stats I saw recently but I think it says something like less than 1% of the age eligible meaning they're over the age of 62 who got a mortgage actually and would have qualified to reverse mortgage took the reverse mortgage so a really small percentage Yeah and so if they were not taking the reverse mortgage what did they do they took on mortgages with payments they took they did all that kind of stuff or they didn't qualify right they didn't know it was an option so they didn't qualify for mortgage in which case they sold their home or they're now they're renting or living with family so all risk or other things there's a huge Marketplace you know for the product and at the end of the day but you know so it's underutilized we know that's that's fair where are the opportunities there's you know I think there's really sort of three levels unfortunately people that tend to

26:45 You know move towards the reverse mortgage everyone knows that there's the sort of needs-based borrower so a needs based borrowers someone that has a home they have a lot of equity they don't have a lot of income or other assets right and so just kind of struggling they're payche their paycheck inflation's killing them all this kind of stuff right those are needs-based clients and they're out there and eventually they see a commercial on TV at night or whatever they do or an ad and they reach out and they get with someone you then have you know sort of the very high net worth people so high netw worth people are G not a huge Marketplace because there's not a ton of people with tons of money although in California real estate three four five $8 million pieces of real estate and you got money in retirement accounts and so forth those people starting to look with their financial planners about how do we use that product to get access to cash maybe for advanced inheritance planning for legacy planning for their kids making donations to other terrible organizations without incurring a payment those sorts of things getting so there's tax plays that come in we won't go into all that today but then in the middle is mass affluent and mass affluent are folks that have a home that it's worth a million five to two and a half or $3 million they still have a mortgage and they're entering their you know pre-retirement or retirement years they're 55 to 60 in that time they still have a mortgage and they have money right they're making good money and they've got you know maybe eight $900,000 maybe a million dollars in a retirement account they feel wealthy but they're in California right and so they're I say they're not wealthy right and they're going to run into trouble because they're gonna have a mortgage they're gonna have to start slowing down at work and so forth that's where there's opportunities for people to do different planning downsizing and taking part of that good and getting a revers for purchase like we kind of talked about you know maybe doing what we call the IRA stretch where you know you're running out of your IRA money or you're taking too much every month and you're incurring taxes because you're taking too much you're taking above your required minimum distribution right and so a better plan might be to put the reverse in place to

28:49 Eliminate the underlying mortgage payment so you can slow down your cash flow stretch out the IRA and maybe you're actually increasing your wealth over time to pass on your kids right it's all numbers and it's all sort of thinking and strategy so I think there's huge opportunity and it's all over the place it's everywhere not to mention the sort of the long-term care issues out there and paying for insurance and home health care and so forth the sandwich generation is real you know people you know I just turned 60 so I'm probably at the older end of that but people that are in their mid- 40s the mid-50s and they're still paying for kids in college and they got aging parents there a lot of money that's going go around and the reverse can solve a lot of those problems I think that you know just again being in this business daily and listening you describe it the thing that strikes me is that the opportunity is in the edges which are a little more compli complicated and complex and that's why for example I'm this podcast because I think the solution is education the more people you know I the statistics you mention were staggering I think you're right I would say of that people about the properties you know 75% don't even know there is such a thing it's even a reasonable option as a RSE mortgage that would triple the number of case use I just drop the bat and so I think to opportunity just with education yeah no you're right you know and another stat that's a little startling is that you know going back a couple of decades you know a relatively small well you know maybe it's 25 or 30% of the people entered retirement with mortgage or with debt that numbers up to 65% entering retirement with debt not maybe just Mortgage Debt but other types of debts and so forth right so this is why the liability management is so important right just everything has gotten so expensive across the board and so the fact that two-thirds of our country are entering retirement with in some cases very significant debt just shows what the opportunity is the great thing is there's home equity right we have great real estate here in Southern California you know we've been very

30:53 Fortunate to have you know the growth of real estate over the last several decades and you know you know because you talk about it all the time what's the law of supply and demand and the reality is that with the law supply and demand prices are going to continue up maybe it's not a straight line it's going to change but the reality is they're not making any more of it right so the values are going to continue to go up which is an opportunity yeah I also noticed you know when I when we did some research because this overlaps with my other podcast on probate that there was not a lot of education online in the reverse mortgage field now part of is because maybe the I believe The Originators of reverse mortgages tend to be older than the average and as a result they're less on social media yeah but at the same time our your customers my customers are getting less education opportunities and so that's why I just want to say on behalf of people watching thank you for taking the time to do this and explain I think I think a lot of competition feels like they want to keep it a secret to get their own business which you know I don't know which is right or wrong I personally I feel like the more people educate in the long run my business flourishes whether people copy my advice for free or come to me for that advice it all works out and I appreciate I think you come from the same place I know I can tell Bill that about you it's true I you know a rising tide you know is the same goes lists All Ships yeah and it's true I mean I'm happy to talk to anyone anytime about Reverse Good Bad Ugly whatever people think you know and yeah there's I think you're right I mean it is feel weird that a lot of people in my business don't want to talk about it they do want to kind of keep it a secret I'm not sure why makes no sense to me inter you know our jobs are to act as fiduciaries right which means we're putting our clients needs ahead of ourselves and that's what we need to do every day and if a reverse fits somewhere and it helps them create their lifestyle they want or their kids or the whatever then you know let's talk about it that's it's very simple and let's keep in the hands of the

32:55 Professionals like you John so John thank you so much for your time again today for those who are interested the website that you would go to for more information both in general about reverse mortgages and about John's company is bmart reverse.com is the website bmart reverse.com we'll have the link Down Below in the description and he's with smpl mortgage and they have a phone number right on top there 626 5831 1623 you can get a click there to get a quote and join us on behalf of people watching thank you again for your time I really appreciate thank you Bill and thank you for putting out the education and getting out there I think it's wonderful and you know whatever I can do to help you continue to spread the word right here so thank you thanks so much and for those you're watching again this is the Reverse Mortgage Podcast you can continue the conversation we have a Facebook group Reverse Mortgage Podcast is the Facebook group you can go in there you can ask questions for further information you can reach out to guests prior guests or looking for referrals in other states if you're looking for attorneys or some legal help that's beyond our means it's a great place to that as well so for the rest of you please if you like this subscribe like the button if you have comments or questions put them there I wrote them back to John or whoever is appropriate app gross probate thank you so much for support