Arizona Reverse Mortgages, with Brian Bailey

0:01 [Music] When we deal with reverse mortgages, we always want to deal with an expert. And in reverse mortgages, we have certified reverse mortgage professionals. Really excited to have one here today. I've talked to you in the past. Brian Bailey. Brian, thank you for joining us.

0:15 Thank you, Bill. Thanks for having me. You know, when I launched this podcast, my thesis was we should be doing 10 times as many as we are, but for the bad reputation and false reputation of the past and lack of education. What do you see as the number one or two misconceptions people have that when you talk to about reverse mortgages, they go, "Oh, wow. Maybe I should look at it a little more closely."

0:38 I don't know. For one is the idea that they lose their home. I mean, I think that's the general go-to that everybody goes. One's the fees. Thinking that they need to own their house free and clear. There's just a there are a variety of things. It seems like everybody has an opinion. From the Dave Ramsey's on down to the water coolers at work and everybody's got an opinion and nobody none of them are experts. I mean, even Mr. Ramsay's not an expert in reverse, hasn't learned about it or anything. Just a one-trick pony. And so, we got to we got to educate. It's not even sales anymore. It's not doing the loans. It's not that. It's more of a teaching role at this point. It feels like anyways,

1:26 Hence the podcast and I'm not even doing reverse mortgages as a as a broker. I get kind of the tail end where people weren't educated. I think if they don't go to like you, they go to a you know call center type experience and next thing you know they've passed the kids don't even know there's a mortgage or don't know what a reverse mortgage is and u don't know they need to do probate, they do any kind of estate planning and we end up in a problem. So let's talk a little bit about the first one which is losing the house. Almost all the reverse mortgage products that I'm aware of are non-reourse, meaning that even if doesn't happen anymore very often, even if the loan exceeded the value of the house, they're still not going to lose the house. They may have to sell it and they'll get some equity out of it, but they're not going to be forced on as long as they continue to live in the property or once they pass they're not going to lose they're not going to be upside down. There'll always be some equity left. Talk a little bit about the change of the product and how it ensures people not being cut short and having to maybe be forclosed on and risk other income.

2:30 Well, the idea is that's part of the closing cost. That's part of the factor of it being an FHA backed product by HUD that get instituted because of the unfortunate black eye that the industry has in regards to it that happened in the 80s. That where HUD stepped in and really decided to put the kibosh on all that. And I what I try to tell everybody is like look, you know, of all the mortgages out there, of all the financial products, reverse mortgage is probably the most scrutinized, the most watched over and such minus maybe a VA. And so the idea is that it is being watched. So that we have this non-reourse factor that comes into play where it makes sure that the house is we never owe more than the house is worth. So let's say something crazy happens in the world and house values drop and interest rates go up and you're you are in a negative situation. You aren't actually in that negative situation because when you pass on or the house is no longer your primary residence and the house is foreclosed upon at that point because that's how they the bank would take it over that at that point it's going to be a u non-reourse. It can't go after anything other than just the property itself. And at that point, even the b the kids have an option to go in and buy the property at 90% of the appraised value, which is even a great situation for, you know, not so much a thing here in Arizona, but in the Midwest or back east where you have generational homes, you know, homes that kids grew up in and they want to keep it in the family. So, it's great for them even in that situation.

4:22 So that's a key point is that even if it ends up which it, you know, let me back up. In the old iteration of reverse mortgages, which I did some of years ago, you could get up to about 80% loan to value. And if the appraisal was a little loose and you're 85% and the loan interest accumulated, you went up to 90, whatever, and the house came down in value, you could be upside down in the house. Today with loan to values that's almost impossible. I mean it would just be almost impossible.

4:54 It's really hard. The only time I run into it is an older loan or somehow something where they were able to tap into a lot of equity at a high at a high rate back in the day. But it's in today's current situation, it's pretty much been possible. I think at 62 I figured out the numbers. You have to be at you're around 38% loan to value

5:18 And the there's no circumstance that the borrower as long as they live in the house is going to lose the house because all they do is live there and there's no payments due forever, right?

5:30 We don't want to see we don't like saying that there's no principal and interest payment due. There are t taxes insurance whatever maintenance costs for the home is still there. So we have to be careful because when we say no payment then they think oh I don't have any payment and then they're not making their tax and insurance which they are responsible for

5:50 For and HOA and sometimes HOAs in California can be a little more complicated with a couple different ones but okay but as far as the loan the principal loan not required but you do have to keep the HOA the property taxes and home insurance is required for the loan. But so there's no circumstance as long as you are there from a mortgage point of view that will cause foreclosure.

6:12 Now, if you pass and the kids have it, even if it was upside down, you have like a short kind of a guaranteed short sale process that gives a little bit of a discount to the family to buy the property, right? Meaning when the parents pass, they have the choice to buy the property. And the other choice is even if it was upside down, they still as a short sale, there's a way that they've built into these loans now to where they'll guarantee that they'll approve a short sale, whereas in the past that was kind of a iffy proposition.

6:40 I'm not sure on the short sale side of it. I haven't heard of anybody utilizing that type of scenario. More of like a cash for keys, a voluntary foreclosure where they like a deed in lieu where they allow the bank to take it.

6:53 Correct. Correct. Or they can choose to go in and sell the property themselves, which is what I always recommend because the bank's not going to worry about getting them the most money for that house, they will. And then they just pay off the loan and they keep the rest. Or they let it, you know, let's say they're busy or they're geographically it's very difficult to do. Then they just do the deed and loo, sign the house over, let the bank sell it, and then the loan will get rectified, and then they can turn around and the money will go to the estate. And so these are all ways that protect the state where in the past there might be money's due or claims and legalist situations that really made this process in something entirely different. So I think in that sense it's a much safer product in terms of the ability to buy the house. The other part you need to talk about is the loan is expensive and I do think that it's a fair statement to say it costs more than a forward or traditional mortgage or can doesn't have to but can.

7:50 Yeah. But it also you're only going to do it if you're looking for some specific benefits that would be worthy of being paid for. Right? So meaning if you're if you want the benefit of not having to make payments on the principal interest, that's the price of the mortgage. Or if you want to be able to qualify where you otherwise don't qualify, this might be a cheaper way than say liquidating assets, right? So really the closing cost when you talk to a borrower, you must show them the closing cost, but you must also show them what's the alternative. You're going to sell some stock. You have to pay taxes on the stock.

8:22 It this is a product where really I mean if you have financial planners or CPAs involved, children of course get everybody involved and talk about it in a very holistic approach. You know, you got to look at the cost. You at the end of the day it's all about cost of money. You know, is this the cheapest place to get the money versus another place? And the idea that if the if a borrower doesn't have that financial planner, that trusted resource that they already have a relationship with, well, then you kind of come in as the salesman and you have to be kind careful with that approach. But you show them in this situation if you have the ability to make the payment, you know, the say like when you're comparing a HECM to a home equity line of credit, a HECM being the reverse. If you're comparing that to a heliloc, okay, that's great, but you're going to have a print principal interestonly payment for 10 years. Then it's going to that line of credit's going to shut down and it's going to advertise whatever the total amount owed is going to amvertise over the next 20 years. Are they prepared for that? Is that a good situation? A lot of times they don't qualify for it. You know, so this is that option. But then yes, you get into the do I liquidate stocks? Do I do this? Do I do that? What if what's happening to the market right now? The market's down, I have to liquidate, you know, XYZ stocks and this quantity of stocks in order to make my payments versus if I didn't have a payment, I don't have to liquidate that stock and I can let that ride and let the market correct itself. And so at the end of the day, it's I think Shane says it good with the three bucket strategy.

10:07 You know, you just look at the three buckets. It's all money. I don't I mean whatever emotional tie you have to that bucket is one thing but at the end of the day it's all money. We just got to choose wisely which bucket is the cheapest and most advantageous at that point in time. So

10:22 Well if you have a plan I think the other part is sometimes this helps you avoid bad timing. What you know maybe you have a year where you have a lot of income and you're expecting to have less the following year. Right? You know personally I have a house I'm flipping. I'm making a lot of money on it. I might make more than my normal annual income on this one property. And I'm deciding what I want to do with it tax- wise. I could defer the income to something else, which I may not want to do. I may want to just take the income this year or maybe find some way to push it into next year. But with a selling stock or in this case the selling a house, you make those decisions. Because reverse mortgage gives you a chance maybe to even out those decisions because rather than having to sell something now and pay taxes maybe in the wrong year. I wouldn't want to sell any stock this year. I'm already having a good income year. I'd rather defer it. I could borrow the reverse mortgage and then sell the stock in January and pay back the reverse mortgage if I wanted to do that for example. And so the reverse mortgage I think gives you some additional tools. And this is the thing I try to explain to people. Unlike a forward mortgage where if you're buying a house you need a mortgage. It's pretty clear and there's a couple flavors. There's chocolate, strawberry, vanilla. You're going to pick one. Most people like the 30-year fixed, but the reverse mortgage is really like a and I'm not a handy guy at all, but it's like a toolbox of tools. And it really does give you some different tools for different circumstances. The question is not is it a good tool, it's is it the right tool for you to use today or not? Or is it a good tool for you to have in your toolbox? And I think that's where someone like you coming in as an experienced originaler can help them make those right decisions. Well, that scenario you're talking about right now where you all of a sudden you have a windfall come in and let's say you've had a reverse mortgage in place and you know you've acred a bunch of interest. Well, now all of a sudden you got that 1099 income coming in from that sale, right? Or such. Well, you get a 1098 for the interest that you're paying. Well, that 1099 1098 can go ahead and cancel each other out. So you could take that income coming in and off offset it by paying down on the reverse

12:26 And you know and come into a more tax neutral position which I think we can all agree on. We don't like paying the government any more than we have to

12:35 And why not you know position yourself correctly. So it's very much a tool and we always say in the industry it's an option mortgage. It's you know I don't shy away from using the word reverse. I don't like you know trying to bait and switch people. I say it's a reverse. It's not the reverse of the 80s. It's the reverse of 2020 2025. So, and with that it is it gives seniors options when they're running out of options. They don't have a lot of flexibility anymore. They don't have time to on their side for market corrections and such. So, this is a tool that gives them it's really a win-win situation for them. I hate saying win-win because, you know, that throws up red flags. At least it does to me. But it really is. I can't find the downfall in whatsoever. Well, in the right circumstances. So, there's two as a real estate broker, I deal with two types of customers that all of them should have reverse mortgage. I think that don't in these two circumstances that I deal with regularly. Number one, customers who have a house that's paid free and clear and are and are old enough to get a reverse mortgage. Right? So, if you're 6'2 or over, I have clients who owned h property in the Palisades. It was an older They're older couple, older house. They're getting ready to actually one stands out my mind where my friends were getting ready to move her to a facility temporarily.

14:01 They're moving her to their home while they kind of got the facility put together and the and the house in the Palisades burned down. The house was a tear down. At the time, was worth about $2 million. It was owned free and clear. Well, guess what? They're going to have deal with the insurance company to get a nickel out of anybody. They're not they have no access versus if they had a reverse mortgage and the line credit would have built up, they could access half million dollars on a no recourse basis and use that money for living expenses or medical expenses. And they even could have used that to buy the next house and then sold the house and paid off the mortgage rather have deal with it with insurance company which I'm not sure what that I mean I honestly don't know if they're obviously in the money because these insurance companies are just dragging things out. So to me as a real estate broker every customer we have who has a house paid free and clear should have risk mortgage. Tell me I'm wrong on that.

14:59 I don't see any problem with that whatsoever. I mean, yes, you have some fees, but in that it gives you so many options in a situation where I have a client right now that we're I'm actually getting ready to submit it. It's a situation where after she got a certain vaccine that goes unmentioned, she got stage 4, something to do with her lungs. It wasn't COPD, but it was something else. And in that, she had to be on oxygen. Well, she went outside to check the mail or something and she fell, couldn't get to her oxygen, and now she has dementia complete. And so I've been having to deal with Kaiser and trying to get letters. And of course, the trust calls out two letters, you know. So, you sit here and you go through all this back and forth. And man, I mean, I've been she's been working on this since November. I just got involved from the other LO referred it over to me, you know, since it's my expertise. And I think I've been dealing with it for about a month and a half now and we're finally at the point where we can submit it. If they would have had this reversed into place before that, not a problem. Not a problem.

16:08 Kind of like the probate and stuff like that. Like you don't I mean setting up probate right at or setting everything up right at the end is not the time to be doing. You don't write a will on your deathbed. You know, you got

16:21 You can it's that's it's problematic. It's not advised. Failing to plan is planning to fail. I think you're right on that. So again, and you corrected me, which is

16:32 If you own a house free and clear, you should have a reverse mortgage. There are costs involved. You should know what those costs are. To me, those costs are a small price to pay for the insurance of access to your equity and more importantly, access to flexibility because again, let's say you need whatever reason with your insurance, your retirement policy or your retirement income or you have some extra expenses you want to advance for. Yeah, you could sell stock and if you have to pay taxes in that year, but you have better return the following year, more dividend income, let's say, then you can use reverse to balance that out. And I think most people if you're in the property for 5 10 years, you're going to find those circumstances on a free and clear mortgage that you're going to want to use. Maybe it's to build to repair the property. Maybe it's to add an additional dwelling unit because they can bring additional income or the family members live there. There's so many different uses for this. To me, everybody who has a free house should look at this. At least look at it. Look at the toolbox and say, "Is this tool right for me and evaluate?" That's one case. The other one, again, as a real estate broker, I deal with all the time, it's not so much my clients, some, but mostly my clients are selling for other reasons, but people who sell a house here and move somewhere and pay cash. In the common cases, they sell a $2 million house, which is an average home here in Los Angeles area, let's say, and they're going to buy in some other lower income area, Texas, Arizona, Nashville, very common, Florida, and buy a, you know, $800,000 house, million dollar house,

17:59 Right? They're going to pay cash for it in many cases. That person should get a reverse mortgage one of two ways. Either a again to protect their equity. If you buy the you can buy get the reverse mortgage when you purchase, you don't even have to access it. You know, you can you can pull the money out, put it back in or get us a line of credit, but also you can buy more. And I was an example that's what prompted me doing this podcast was I was looking at houses if we didn't access any cash we have here in California or sell any property here in California. If I just was going to write a check and I wanted to buy a house in Florida, maybe establish my residency there for tax reasons, it's complicated, but whatever. I was looking as a kind of a fantasy. I only had about $500,000 to play with and I was looking at condos. Didn't find anything I liked. I realized, well, with reverse mortgage, I could probably get about an $800,000 condo, get $300,000 in reverse and a $500,000 cash, and I have to pay on that $300,000 reverse mortgage. Well, now I could buy a nicer property. Well, that makes it possible. And so, I would say to anybody who's buying a property for cash, maybe you're selling out or you have cash, you should look reverse mortgage on the purchase side, lower some of your closing cost because you're already going to get title insurance. You're already getting a buying it. Tell me I'm wrong there. Every buyer who's buying for cash should have risk or at least look at it very closely.

19:13 Of course, everyone should look at it. If you're 62 or older, you should be looking at it. You'd said anybody that owns a house free and clear. I would say anybody that's 62 or over and has mortgage payment and the equity available should be looking at it. Why sell stocks in order to make a mortgage payment? Now, you can always make the mortgage payment. Just because you have a reverse doesn't mean you don't have, you know, you don't need to. You can pay make the interest payments. Again, you have options.

19:41 So, really, I think at any point, you know, now, you know, I think whatever scenario you're going to throw at me here, I'm going to say they should look at it and discuss it and find the pluses and minuses on either way. You know, what about silver divorces? What about somebody who wants to stay in their home?

19:58 Well, what's a silver divorce? The seniors getting divorced. It's there's a name for it called silver divorce. Well, they're saying silver divorce now. I think they're back to gray divorce. I don't know. Whatever. The point is that seniors getting divorced and it's a sad situation, but they're also in a position where let's say they have a $600,000 house that's free and clear. And if they get divorced, they have to liquidate that house. Or what they could do is do a reverse mortgage, you know, on whoever's retaining the property and then pay off this the departing spouse and that spouse could turn around and do a reverse for purchase. Now they both have $600,000 houses. Their equity positions are exactly the same. And they both neither of them had to take a drop in social, you know, economical, you know, environment. You know, they can both live in the same neighborhoods that they were accustomed to and neither of them have a payment. So it can be used in so many ways. It's just a matter of like not being scared to talk to somebody about it because it is complicated. It's complete shift complete shift of thought. You know, we spend our whole life, you know, got to pay off that 30-year mortgage.

21:19 Well, then out in the West, I don't know if that's a thing anymore because everybody moves every five years. So, right. You know, at least they were anyways. But, so, but

21:28 Until the house burned down. Okay. Until the house burned down. Yeah. So, but no, I mean, definitely in the situations. I had a client, you know, mass affluent client, had a lot of money, sold a house in California and bought a townhouse out here and they did a reverse and they have a beautiful property up in Wyoming and I was like, you know, my wife and I were traveling in the RV and we stopped in and saw them and I was like, I have to ask, why did you do the reverse? You know, like I mean, we talked about it in the finding strategy, but you know, at the beginning, but like why did you do it? Because you had the money. And they're like, "Yeah, but why put it on a mortgage when we could put it somewhere else? You know, we make more money on that money than we were paying on the reverse." I'm like,

22:14 Again. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm also, you know, I happen to have a business related strategic investment where my rate of return is really high and, you know, it kind of comes up as an opportunity from time to time that I can put more money in. Having the flexibility where I can get a strong return. It sounds better than it is. But it's also related to my business. I keep an eye on it, but you know, to have an extra $100,000, not everybody has that money just sitting around. Having reverse line of credit gives you a chance to do that. And yet, you're paying maybe 8 9%. You know, whatever. But when those opportunities come, you would have had the flexibility. Well, look, we've talked a lot about, I think, some very sophisticated situations. And so, obviously, they need to talk to somebody who's an expert. You're certified as reverse mortgage professional. What percentage of your business is you doing directly with consumers versus you working through other professionals referring you business, financial planners and accountants and the like.

23:14 I would say probably 80% is direct consumer and maybe 20% is referrals. Right now. We're actually getting ready to kind of I'm bringing a friend of mine on and he's going to kind of running the back shop and allow me to just go out and produce and go out and teach classes and such. And that's kind of the goal is that I don't get weighted down by all the conditions and the different going ons of mortgage and to teach more and to where we can get to those consumers. But right now it's just been I run the reverse division for Patriot Pacific out in Temecula. And so I work a lot with my loss trying to train them and get them going. A lot of them, you know, just refer business over to me and I go in and I close it and such. So it's that's kind of been where the majority of it has been. But we're looking to scale up to where we're dealing with all the financial professionals. They need they need to know about it. They got the fiduciary responsibility to know about it. They have they need to know.

24:20 So, do you are you currently looking for more originators to bring on to your team or is it more about you coaching the ones that are currently in your system and teaching them how to look for the reverse mortgage situations and raise their hand and get involved with you?

24:32 Yeah, we always encourage folks that are looking, especially if you want to get into reverse and that's where you want your focus to be. We're setting up a here a branch here in Phoenix. Of course, you don't need to be in Phoenix for it, but that's what we're doing on that. I also have the division. So, our brokerage seems to focus a lot on VA loans being in Temecula, they're in a really good position for that. You know, here in Phoenix, we're in a very good position to focus on reverse,

25:01 Right? And so with that, I mean, if people find that they're more on forward centrist and they want to be a part of a team that really loves VA loans and stuff, wonderful brokerage, very faith-based, you know, like-minded folk and such. Yes. And then have a reverse side to back in on if they want to focus 100% on reverse and you know not 100% but they really want to focus in on reverse more than welcome to come join our branch and I'll work closely with them on that too. So yeah, definitely

25:34 One of the things that got me into the podcast and the world of reverse mortgages is so many what I call reverse SOS's where mom and dad have reverse, you know, one passes, then the other one passes. Now the kids have a house, they didn't know there's a mortgage or maybe they know there's one, but they don't know what to do about it.

25:52 Maybe one of the kids is living there thinking he lives there for free. And then discovers after six months that no one's been called. And if the property's not in an estate plan, before they can do anything, they need to establish a probate. And so they're now under the gun to get done quickly at the risk perhaps of facing foreclosure. And of course, there's stress involved in that. And that's why I get involved. I help I work with some adverse mortgage servicesers as well as I help the consumers find a quick action to probate. So, one of the questions I always have, and I understand it's difficult, is do you get involved with borrowers who are, you know, coming to you at some point who don't have an estate plan? They're buying the property in the name of Bob and Mary Smith. Particularly in California, it's a big issue. I know you're in Arizona. It's a little it's a little different, but still similar in that they pass the process of passing the property through is more efficient if they've planned ahead like anything else. So, in Arizona, what kind of pre-planning do they need? And do you get involved in at least advising people they should seek professional help in that area?

26:53 Yeah, I do focus on that when I see anything. And I have a one in Tucson right now paying $9,000 a year for property insurance. And I was just like what are you talking about? So, I got him involved with an insurance guy and now he's paying 2500.

27:12 Wow. You know, and so I think that's our responsibility on the mortgage side is to make sure that we're seeing those situations in our discovery. Do you have a will? Do you have a trust? Do you want to close in the trust? What do you have set up for the estate and everything? And if they don't really have any of that plan, then it's like, okay, with this, we do need, you know, you're really, it's really important that you get this taken care of so you don't end up in probate. I know we're not as nearly as latigious and problematic as say maybe some things are in California, but I don't care where you are. It's a good thing to have and make sure I've been in the financial industry since I don't know early 2000s. Trying to think back to it, you know, between insurance agencies to banking to mortgage and it's it you I've seen so many so many sad like I can't even explain how sad situations, you know, families getting torn apart because of money. You know people not planning correctly and following for scams like Nigerian princes and Canadian lotteryies and you just see so much desperation out there and the desperation all comes due to a lack of planning and so we want to make sure that we get them over to the right the right individuals. I had I have a just closed the reverse for purchase. I got another one coming and I had to get in explain to the Realtor® like look I stay in my lane. I don't get into the negotiation process of purchasing a home or contingencies and all that. I stay in my lane and I want everyone else to stay in their lane as well. My lane is not probate. My lane is not wills and trusts. My lane is not insurance. I can recognize things when needed or it's, you know, it's problematic saying like you're overpaying by triple. But I and I

29:16 Try to get them over to the professionals that they need to talk to and that's how I develop my relationship with the clients. But I also make sure to work with professionals that respect that same that same lane, you know, I mean, division and treat each other with that respect of understanding that look, we don't know everything. I can't even begin to know what you know, Bill. You know what I mean? Like, you know, it's I but I stay focused on where I'm at. That's why I did the CRMP. It's like I want to be reverse interest. I that's what I want to focus on. Then I need the best designeration in the industry. So, I got, you know, that's what I shop for.

29:52 Yeah. I think, you know, it's interesting you say that. I and I've said this a lot. I have a relationship with the CRMP other than I really respect it and promote it because I think it's a standard of excellence that's unique. Of all the designations I've ever come across in my career in real estate, it's the only one that I found of any real value to say this will at least tell me this person's at least a minimum the standard I want to work with. If they don't have that, boy, they better have some other credibility to verify for me that I would that I would consider working with them because the minimum standards to be a C a certified residential mortgage professional CRMP are so high and I think you hit all those boxes and I think the main thing I get from you is just the passion for the reverse product and I think that comes across that you just can't do that amongst five other products. You know, you can't do commercial loans and for mortgages and reverse mortgages and, you know, sell life insurance and be a notary, and had the passion for one. Same with me with probate. I, you know, I would love to sell more houses. I, unfortunately, my best friends didn't use me to list their house because, you know, they heard me kind of casually saying, I'm not really in that business. I do it really well, but I love doing the probates. And in some regards, I rather have a $500,000 probate sale than a $2 million residential sale. Although the money part works out too. Look, Brian, you've been very generous with your time. I've gotten a little bit over. I'm sorry about that. But for somebody who wants to get more hold of you, I know your website, great website. Reversefinanicial.com is your website. And there you have all your contact info. Is that the best way to get a hold of you?

31:27 Yep, that's the best way. And then as well, I'm putting the banner down below if you want more information. Reach out to Brian directly. His phone number as well as his email address. Reversefinancial.com is the website. Brian is licensed currently only in Arizona for reverse mortgages but obviously a real resource there. And if you're looking I imagine as an originator to join get some more training you can talk to him about that as well. So Brian thank you so much for time. I really appreciate you being with us again today and thanks for your contribution industry. Really appreciate your time.

31:55 Well thank you Bill and thank you for putting this podcast together and reaching out to more people and pulling in all the different industry insiders. I've been keeping track of the podcast since you started and watching who you brought on and hearing what they have to say and each one brings a unique flavor to it. So, I appreciate what you're doing.

32:12 Well, thanks so much. I appreciate that. You know, and I know for those who weren't listening, I had we had recorded an episode previously and due to my technical mistake, we had lost it. I one of the lost ones. But I think as I've gone on here, as I said to Brian, I think I'm a little better now. We have a little more graphics. We have some more promotion material. We get more views. So hopefully I know for me I'm glad to have always glad to talk to you. I always feel like I've learned a bit advance and today in particular I think we learn quite a bit. So thank you for your time.

32:35 I appreciate and for you this is the Reverse Mortgage Podcast. We get together every week usually with a top originator like Brian in the business sometimes with vendors sometimes with management. You can continue the conversation on our Facebook group which is The Reverse Mortgage Podcast. If you're looking for so many different states referrals vendor information if you need something like that. If you like this please like it, subscribe to it. If you have suggestions on who I should interview, put that in the comments or send me an email. Reach out if I can help in any way. I'm at Bill Gross Probate on social media.