The Role of a Professional Fiduciary in Probate, with Kevin Bemel

0:03 What is a professional fiduciary? When, if ever, do they need to be licensed? And more importantly, who is Kevin Bemel? This week on Probate Weekly, I'm your host, Bill Gross. At Bill Gross Probate, we get together every week with professionals for professionals to talk about how to be better at serving our customers. Often we have, probate based attorneys, litigation attorneys, and other vendors. And one of the vendors we have today is a guy who's a good friend. I've known for a long time, longtime client. We work together in cases currently. Kevin Beaml Kevin, thank you for joining us today. Yeah. Well, thanks for having me on, Bill. Good to see you. Haven't happened for what, 24 hours. Yeah, I think I say a little lesson. Actually, you drove me home from our meeting we're at yesterday because I took an Uber there and you took me back. So what is a professional fiduciary and more importantly, what's a licensed professional fiduciary? Right. So both good questions. A professional fiduciary is someone who acts as a probate administrator or a trustee for you know for his business or and as opposed to you know being a family member who was appointed to being an executive or being a trustee. Now in all the other 49 states while there are professional fertiaries and they go by a variety of names by the way. So you'll hear the term independent trustee, independent probate administrator, independent personal representative. All of those mean the same thing as a professional fiduciary.

1:41 So here in California, this is a licensed profession. We do have the honor of having the most expensive license in California. And so for anyone who's going to handle more than one case, if you will at a time, they need to have a license. So if you're you know if god forbid you know your parent passed away and you're going to be the executive for their estate okay you definitely don't need to be licensed there but if then in addition to that you're going to be the executive for a friend's estate so now you're doing two and in theory you need to be licensed there are about I think my license number is about300 or something like that I got my license in 2020 22. So there's maybe I would guess around 1,400 licensed professional fiduciaries in California. The vast majority of them though actually focus on nonprobate related activities. So a licensed professional fiduciary can also act as a conservator can act as a guardian which have a whole health care component to them. And a lot of the people who have the license for that reason actually come out of the health care business. So, I don't handle those kind of I don't handle the health care side and so I generally don't handle guardianships and conservator conservatorships. So, I handle probates and trusts.

3:21 One of the things I've noticed about this industry is there is not nearly enough licensed professional fiduciaries in California, for example, for the businesses available. The few that I've met are like you extremely busy and maybe unlike you're in a small handful that are even open to looking for new business. Most of the ones I talked to are overwhelmed where they have established relationships and they're overwhelmed with the business they have. It might be there and also they skew older and I think so I think that when one can find a fiduciary to work with and refer business to so let's talk about who is bringing business to you as a professional fiduciary and what is their problem that they're looking to hire you versus say an attorney right so most of my business comes from people who are actively involved in the administration of estates whether it's a probate or a trust. So that can be probate and trust attorneys estate planning attorneys to a much lesser extent accountants and of course your source of business to me as a you know your real estate practice is really based on probate and not to say that you don't do non-probate transactions but that's really your focus. So for anyone who's focused on probates that's you know that's potential source of business for me. Now having said that at least in my practice and where I can add the most value is when there is one of three things going on.

5:06 One is there is a lot of real estate involved because my background is real estate and so there's a whole range of property management issues, asset management issues and such that for people who don't have a real estate background, it's much more difficult for them to handle them andor they have to bring in a third party to do that. So that's number one. Number two, there is an ongoing business that's part of the estate. And again, that something has to be figured out with respect to that business. Is the business going to be handed over to the heirs? Is it going to be sold? If so, how? In the meantime, it has to be operated so that the value is maintained. And because I have a history of running businesses as well, so that falls into, you know, my wheelhouse. And the third one is there's typically some kind of mess there. And that mess usually comes down to one of two forms. Either the person has died in test state. So there's no will, there's no trust. So there's no indication of what is supposed to happen after they die. And so it's there's a mess because of that. And or the heirs or beneficiaries are fighting and one side one camp has got their preferred administrator and the other one has their preferred and they're not going to they're not going to agree and rather than come to some sort of compromise they'll spend every penny that the estate has in fighting.

6:42 And so I'm handling one case now where the judge is o almost literally begging the two warring camps from the bench, please just agree to hire Mr. Bemel because he's neutral, you know, and he does this for a living and he will make sure that everything is taken care of properly, you know, rather than I mean it's just hearing after hearing after hearing and so you know so far they seem you know more interested in fighting unfortunately than in getting down to the business of settling you know probating going through the probate and settling the estate. So those are the three areas where I typically get involved and because of that a majority of my business comes from lawyers because they tend to be the ones who get involved with these types of matters especially the disputes. So you bring up a term neutral. So there are cases where it's neutral when you have two people the judge is looking for a third party who would be neutral and that's a portion of your business. And there's also a portion where you're anything but neutral. There is a state that wants you because you're bringing particular expertise and you mentioned those three areas. So let's go through those three areas a little bit.

8:03 Not saying that the judge and the neutral doesn't want you to be an expert but somebody bring you in usually has something in mind. So one real estate obviously I'm a real estate broker. I'm not bringing you in to sell the property talk. But I've noticed and benefited from and you and I have worked in a particularly large case where your knowledge of real estate is critical to the administrative nonreal estate related I should say non-real estate sales non-real estate brokerage related activities you know dealing with the schedules of real estate and getting evaluations of real estate and details. Talk a little bit about and I know you have a background as a commercial both as a commercial appraiser I should say a real estate appraiser and as a property manager talk a bit about the activities of a fiduciary as some were complicated cases with you know multiple pieces of real estate or portfolios of real estate right so a as you know prior to when I was in the Navy I had a commercial real estate company here in LA for 20 years so and we I did the task that you mentioned property management, asset management, appraising and consulting those were my you know primary services that I offered. So you know in a situation where there is a lot of real estate in a you know in an estate so there are decisions that have to be made especially if the estate is going to have to pay estate taxes. So now it's not just a matter of figuring out you know what is going to be best for the heirs and or beneficiaries. There's a whole issue of how are the estate taxes going to be paid and if well while there are estate planning things that can be done that will prevent or not I shouldn't say prevent but that will mean you know property doesn't necessarily have to be sold to pay estate taxes. That doesn't always happen. And so now there has to be an

10:06 Assessment made you know which are the properties that need that should be sold versus the ones that should be kept and that and I you know I need to look at what are the performance characteristics of the properties? What are the likelihood of future appreciation? What is the you know management burden of the properties? Who's going to handle that? So there's that whole and that's sort of the asset management level. You are there debts on the properties and if so what's going to happen to those debts as the properties move through probate? How are the lenders going to be dealt with? And then there's more of the property management issues. So to the extent that there's tenants in the properties, they may have leases, they may not have leases. So, you know, how durable are the income streams and you know, one of the big issues as you know in real estate here in California and really kind across the nation is, you know, insurance premiums. So, you know, over the last, you know, couple of years, there have been tremendous increases in insurance premiums. So, you know, as I look at various properties, one of the things I have to examine is, you know, is how do I think, you know, the performance of that property is going to be impacted by insurance renewals. So, just to give you a real quick example, I'm handling an estate that had several properties with cannabis tenants in them. And in theory, it's more expensive to ensure a property with cannabis tenants because of the element that sometimes attracts, right? So, in one particular property, the cannabis tenant was moving out and so I spoke to the insurance broker and I said, "Hey, you know, Todd, the cannabis tenant is moving out, so I know we're insurance is coming up for renewal. We should be able to get a better rate. And he's like, "Yeah, no,

12:09 Don't count on that." And I said, "Why not?" He said, "Well," he said, "Because so many cannabis tenants are dropping off, the cannabis specialty insurers are hungry for business now actually under bidding the general insurance market." So, and indeed we ended up pay we didn't pay as so much higher as Todd originally thought, but we did actually end up paying more for the new policy than when the cannabis tenant was there just because of what's going on in the insurance market. So, just reminder, we're in California just so there's that, too. There's that, too. But I mean th this is I mean this is not a insurance premiums are not a California specific issue. I was just reading an article in the Wall Street Journal earlier today that Florida has had you know big increases in insurance premiums to the extent that you know condominiums have become much less affordable for example. And I'm not going to get into the wise and wherefors of that but it's you know injustice. It's not just California in this particular case, right? So having a f familiarity not just of a working knowledge of these kinds of issues is important because my core responsibility is to administrate the estate as effectively and efficiently as possible on because eventually that estate is going to the heirs and so while they don't have a says so in terms of what I do I still have to keep in the back of my mind that in essence I'm taking care of their property. I'm an interim prop, you know, caretaker there. And so, you know, these things have to be dealt with a lot of knowledge and care. And I do know there are fiduciaries who seek to also be the real estate broker. And yet, at least in the case we're working on, your

14:12 Expertise is well beyond what a broker is. It may not be as detailed in the brokerage part as what I do, but there's so many other ways that real estate has to be addressed. And for me to communicate with a an administrator, the fact that you're knowledge, not just knowledgeable, an expert in real estate, we've had some complicated decisions as far as insurance, taxes, appraisals, data appraisals, court appraisals, environmental impact reports, discovering these kinds of things. The latest was I think a tree inspection is a new requirement, right? Yeah. This that is a California thing or a Los Angeles thing. Yes. But my point is I think that sometimes you know people look at well I don't there's no real estate that we're selling therefore we don't need to have real estate expertise and that would be a terrible mistake because the truth is managing and just getting the taxes you know assessed and it's different levels right you have federal income tax you have pro you know reassessments of properties all these factor in that I think real estate and then the management issues we've talked about quite a bit I mean we go to meetings and I'm not even involved in half of what you I listen in and I'm involved with a degree but half of these things are just really about the daily operation. So that's the real estate that blends in the second area which is the business. A reason why somebody might need a fiduciary and I think also again in your case some expertise and experience you bring is running a business. Talk a bit about the role of fiduciary that's unique in running a business for an estate. Right. So you know a business in the end is an asset to the estate. I mean unless it's unless it's very small and it's done on a very informal basis in which case it may not have any value in it but to the extent that it is some kind of going concern there's a value there it may be $50,000 it may be $300,000 it could be millions of dollars or more right and so like any other asset that value needs to be maintained for the benefit of

16:15 The estate and then you know there's a whole range of issues that arise with respect to that business. So you know I was and I was having this conver oh on my show yesterday I was interviewing my guest who's he's an investment banker who specializes in mergers and acquisitions for companies with a million to hund00 million in revenue. I said why do people come to you with you know to you know bring you in? He said well one of the reasons is they're a founder and they're ready to exit the business and there's no one in their family who will take it over. And so you know they decide rather than you know dying and leaving the business to nobody right they decide to go ahead and sell the business pull that wealth out and invest in something else for you know for their at least benefit while they're alive and then you know on down the road. So to the extent that kind of estate planning has not been done and you'd be surprised well you wouldn't Bill but viewers may be surprised how often business owners you know don't take that you know don't do any kind of estate planning with respect to their business. So now you've got this company and it's not affecting just the heirs.

17:37 There are people who work for the company. There are customers, clients, right? And now they're all scrambling trying to figure out what's going to happen, you know, now that the founder or the founder may also be the president or the CEO or whatever. He's gone, she's gone. What are we going to do? So you know my job as the fiduciary is first of all to make a fundamental decision and that is am I going to directly administrate that business meaning oversee its operations or am I going to bring someone in to administrate that business and for me personally that comes down to do I have the knowledge and experience to directly administrate that business. So you know, one of the things you and I are involved in, right, is a property management company basically. Well, look, the company is very similar to the one that I ran for 20 years. So, for me to administrate that makes sense. But, you know, if somebody died and left behind, I don't know, a steel foundry, you know, I'm not going to administrate that business directly. I'm going to have to bring in someone to sit in the CEO's chair who knows that business, right? And then he would be responsible to me for the performance of the business. And he would also then be essentially a consultant to me as I work through the decisions as to what's what needs to happen with the business and what has to happen with the business when somebody is alive is different than when they're past. And case in point, this one estate we're working on together, the owner of the business had, you know, dated computer software on a desktop in the office because he went to the office every day and that worked for him to save that money. Whereas a more modern business, certainly one that either has to grow or be ready for sale, needs to have more modern software and systems and procedures and things like that. There's a lot of you know handshake agreements and verbal agreements that an

19:40 Owner of a business when he's alive might do when he's gone the you know the tenants the employees the owner people say hey you know so and so promised me this promise me that and so I guess it becomes then the role of the person running the business in this case you're stepping in as the fiduciary to make those day-to-day decisions how do we you know handle it do we need to document these things now do we need to go to more formal contracts and more formal compensation agreements and all that. And so they're it's not as simple as we just I'm going to take over that business or sell it to somebody. It's really go in and evaluate it and get it running to where it's either capable of being managed or being sold. So maybe talk a little bit about and then of course because you ran a similar business, you were able to make those kinds of decisions, right? I know I was one of the people and employees and vendors and customers would bring you, hey, this isn't right, that's not right. It was right for the prior owner because it worked for him and was also his company. He, you know, he got do. He can do whatever he want. But we can't write that way for the estate because you have a fiduciary responsibility to protect them, limit liability to them, and that's a different story than it is to the owner. Talk a little bit about how you bring that to the to the party, not just in general business, but you're really bringing over business that needs to be transitioned from one party to whatever the future looks like, right?

21:02 So it I'll use the you know business I was talking about. So it started by u me attending the funeral for the decedent so that because many of the people who were at the funeral were employees customers clients of the business and you know because there was no estate plan they were all very nervous what's going to happen. So, you know, I suggested to the people that were dealing with the situation initially, look, why don't I just come to the funeral and to the extent that you want to, you can introduce me to people and they can at least put a, you know, a face to the person who's going to be responsible for making these decisions. So I think you know part of part of how I handle things is number one to kind of establish a presence in the sense of okay you know as we used to say in the Navy I have the con right so you know if you have questions concerns you can address them to me and I'm going to have to do triage and handle them you know most crucial concerns first but at least you know who to come to right so that's the that's like that is like the triage part of the situation. So once I've got that done, now I have to look at you know what is the viability of the business? Is this something that can really stand on its own, right? Because there are a lot of businesses that when there's, you know, the owner founder who's running them, I mean, I don't want to say they're a hobby, but the fact of the matter is they're not really generating income so much as they're an opportunity for that for the owner to create a situation where they can write off expenses and reduce their taxes, right?

22:59 So for a nonowner this sounds weird for non-owner ownership, right? If the ownership is going to transfer to someone who's not going to actually run the business and all of that. So there's not a whole lot of value for them in doing that unless they're also going to take over the operation of the business. So I should say for a non-owner operator, right? So I've got to evaluate what is the viability of this business, right? And I mean that takes time and you know uncover because there were alligators all over the place that we kept finding this one and these forms are up to date and this process is up to date and this was never done and Right. Right. But there were also you know there were situations where again because it was his business you know he entered into a number of un completely uneconomic arrangements but he did it because he had a relationship with a person or he was hoping to build a relationship or whatever. And that's all good and well, but when you're when you're when a business is transitioning from an owner operator to an owner and sort of professional management of the business, those kinds of arrangements typically don't work very well because they don't end up monetizing in the way they do with an owner operator, right?

24:19 So there's also the sort of and many businesses go through this not necessarily in probate where the founder owner operator needs to transition out and professional management has to take over, right? And this is by the way one of the times when businesses often fail is because the you know charismatic founder he won't step aside and the business starts to decline because it never gets put on a solid foundation. So I you know to the extent that's what's going on in probate and it often is. So that I have to fulfill that role of seeing if the business can transition. You know, it's a it's a judgment call, right? I mean, there's no guarantees in this, but to the extent that I make the judgment call that there are strong reasons for the business to make that transition. So then I have to oversee the transition. Again whether it's me directly or whether I bring in you know someone to oversee it and then you know and work with that person however it is I've got to transition that business into you know a professional management of the business itself so that it can truly be a going concern and something then that when it comes into ownership by the heirs they actually have something that is of value.

25:46 So there's the hard technical, you know, didactic side of making decisions, evaluating, looking at numbers and contracts and things like that. And then there's a soft skills and the same thing on any business particularly as you mentioned in a case where you know somebody's passed where you have employees who maybe relied on the energy of the of the founder for you emotional guidance as well. Couldn't imagine the business without him. Certain vendors, certain customers who expected certain treatment, certain service. All of a sudden, they're being treated like a customer or vendor because that's your job in a sense is to treat them that way, not as a personal friend because you know yet you try to be friendly and you try to honor the relationship. Talk about balancing kind of the business side which is your construction responsibility but with the soft skills of communication and they're hard. Are there cases where people turned and I've watched turn on you in a sense and really you know make that difficult. So talk a little bit about balancing those two. Sure. Sure. So and I assume you remember this but my getting a professional fiduciary's license really was something you suggested and it made sense to me from a business standpoint and that's why I did it. It was only you know several months into practice that I realized that what I had done in the Navy as a chaplain was of tremendous value. Oh yeah. To what I was doing to what I do as a professional fiduciary because there is a whole emotional component to the administration of an estate. And I don't want to say that, you know, judges don't appreciate that or anything, but it doesn't it doesn't come into play when you're in a hearing in court.

27:35 Largely right but when you're when I'm actually dealing with the people it does so whether I'm dealing with you know the longtime lawyer of the decedent or the friends and loved ones of the decedent or the employees of the decedent you know there's a mourning period or there's a grieving period that they should go through and oftentimes they don't either they don't think to do it they don't want to do it, they're too busy, all those kind of things. And so now this is this is just part of my ethos as a human being. This doesn't have to do so much with being a professional fiduciary, but my ethos as a human being is people need to be helped through their emotional difficulties. So, you know, when I come into a situation, part of what I'm doing is I'm looking where are these people at? How do they how do they need to be handled? And, you know, I mean, I don't go drill sergeant on them, but, you know, for some people, you know, that you they need the, you know, you really got to pull yourself up by your bootstraps kind of thing. And for other people, you know, they need to be told, "Hey, look, no matter what anybody says, you've suffered a loss here." And let's just recognize that right at the beginning and acknowledge this is a component of what's going to be happening as we move forward. And let's not sweep it under the rug because if we do that inevitably it's going to break out at some point and it's going to cause a bigger problem than if we had dealt with it forthrightly. So what I and in most cases especially for key people so if there's key people in the in that are work key employees in the business if there are key clients you know key advisors I'll have a one-on-one

29:39 Meeting with them to introduce myself get to know them and to the extent that I can breach these approach these kind of you know more you know soft issues if you will so that we can start to develop some rapport, right? And we don't we don't end up getting what's the word I'm looking for? You know surprised if you know by something coming up because of some kind of you know grieving issue or emotional trauma that they've been trying to you know suppress. Ambush is the word I was looking for. We don't want to be ambushed by these because that only makes the administrative process harder and you know and that's particularly true with you know employees and with vendors we had a couple that I would say other relationships were you know it seemed like they were being abusive to you me the staff because they were mad and this is part of grieving they're mad that he didn't pass and there were sometimes I had to say to them you do understand he passed right and you do know I didn't do it and you understand I'm here trying to help you. So you be mad but I don't think you'll be mad at me. Let's work together and get this done. And I had that same conversation. It's a shorter version of it three or four times with your permission and we have kept in communication because there are people who they don't realize they're ambushing and they don't realize that they're it's a grief. It's a shock. It's they don't even know how to handle it.

31:15 And there's this anger inside that comes out in any relationship. It's just a natural state I think in some way. And I think that's your training as a you know as a cleric. Is that the right term? As a clergy and me I just I you know I stumbled into some getting a few times right on the matter but I lean on you quite a bit on those particularly in this case because there were some really hard emotions or some really just which always surprised me but I guess like you say people have to process those emotions and they just don't well and I do think that sometimes people almost take advantage of it being essentially a business situation. And I take particular exception to that. Now, you know, I'll admit it. I'm you know, somewhat paternalistic, right? So, you know, if you know, there I've had situations where, you know, they're abusing employees in the company especially if they're female because they Oops. Did I lose you? No, I was just I was trying to camera trick there to isolate on you to specialize you. Sorry. That was weird. That was my production staff. Not the production staff. I'm the production staff. So, okay. So, there Well, hold it. You're a big You're a former director of film. You should appreciate No. I never was a director. I was always I was always the producer, not the director. So, I used to appreciate camera shots and angles and I always I always would have to ask my producing partner Rick if it looked good. So, if he said it looked good, then I was fine. But you know, we I had a situation where the female employees of a company were really being abused. Yeah. By these people. And it took me a and I it took me a first of all it took me a while to create the kind of relationship with them where they would tell really tell

33:18 Me what was going on number one because to a certain extent they I guess they kind of expected that this is just part of the game and then you know for them to I don't want to say believe me I think they believe me but to sort of have confidence that when I said to them you know while I am responsible for the administration of this company. It is not permitted for you to be abused verbally or otherwise, you know, as part of this. So, if this is happening, I need you to report it to me so that I can stop it if it's gotten to the point where you feel that, you know, you cannot, you know, it's happening beyond what you're able to, you know, stop happening yourself, right? And again, you know, is that my duty as a as a fiduciary strictly speaking? I maybe not. But the way I look at it is if there are valuable employees in a business and they're being mistreated or worse and they decided to quit. Aside from the human toll, which again my personal ethos is attuned to that, to lose key employees to a business means that I'm potentially losing part of the value of the business, right? And so I look at fiduciary, you know, responsibility pretty broadly.

34:48 So if I lose key employees and I'm potentially reducing the value of the business now potentially I'm in breach of my fiduciary obligation. So for me that's kind of a double rationale as to why you know these emotional issues need to be carefully looked at and watched. And in some cases, you know, I mean, there were a couple cases where you told me what was going on in certain things and you're saying like, I really think this person needs to be sat down. I'm like with my blessing, you know? I mean, it just it has to happen. It's not it's not right for people to be screaming at people. It's not right name calling, using profanity. Look, I didn't like that kind of stuff in the military. And it and it happens surprisingly little in the military and people see in movies, you know, that's not how it actually is in the military. It's that kind of stuff is not it's not tolerated because it's been recognized. This is not an effective way to build team cohesion. Correct. Right. And so if especially if there's a business, we need team cohesion so everybody is able to contribute to their maximum ability. Yeah. There's never anything. I always tell, you know, customers, I don't mind if you yell at me or swear at me. I mean, it doesn't I get you're mad at something else and I don't think you're personal, but you know, when you yell down to your employees, to younger people, I don't mean to sound too machismo, but to women in particular, you know, I'm a father of a daughter. I think that we have a special role to protect. And if I and I protect men employees as well, but I'm just saying that one's just an easy, you're just being a bully. And to tell somebody, hey, you can talk to me that way, but you can't talk to the staff. It's not at all tolerate. It's not like don't do it too often. It's like, no, it's never it's never acceptable. And in one case, we had to I think shut that person off from even communicating with our staff other than via email because and even email we

36:52 Had to cut off because it's just some people just don't get it. It's shocking in 2025. There's still people that think, I don't know, where's it come from? Who where is that acceptable? What in what place? What page of what book is that acceptable? I don't know. I don't know. Now I will say and this is this is an area I think where you and I differ. I do not like people communicating with me using profanity. I know when I was when I was with the Marine Corps, you know, people think about, you know, hard charging Marines on. They would never use profanity in front of me, their chaplain. And if they happen to let, you know, an F-bomb slip, it was always, "Oh, I'm so I'm so sorry, Rabbi. I'm so I'm so sorry, Chap." It's like, "Don't worry, shipmate. I you know, you know, no harm, no foul kind of thing." but when I got to the carrier airwing, I would sit through staff meetings where I think every seventh word was, you know, f this or, you know, feces this or all. And then like I remember on the my first time aboard ship, we sailed to Honolulu and I got off the ship and I called my mother up and I'm like, I think I've been assaulted. What are you talking about? I said, I have heard more profanity in the seven or four day transit to Hawaii than I heard in over three years with the Marine Corps.

38:20 This is my mother. She's so piffy at times. She's like, "How do you think people talk in real life?" I guess I don't know in real life. And so, you know, I not long after that call, I went and sat down with my commanding officer, you Navy captain, 26 years in the Navy. And fortunately for me, he was a very devout Roman Catholic. And I and I he got used to this after a while, but I said to him, I said, "Sir, I need to talk to you about something. And if I'm out of line, just turn me around, kick me on the backside right out of your office. Right? So, of course, now he's intrigued. And I said I said, "Sir, I told him just what I said." I said, "Sir, in the staff meetings we had on this transit, I heard more profanity than I did for over three years with the Marine Corps." And he started to respond and to his credit, he stopped and he said, "Is that really true, Rabbi?" And I always knew when I was in his good graces because he called me rabbi, not chaplain. And I said I said, "Yes, sir." And I said, "You know, as men who claim to live a god- centered life, I'm just wondering if this is compatible with how we wish people to view us." And I have tremendous respect. Captain Hamlin Ortiz, I'm going to say his name because he's just such a great such a great man. He was a great leader. One of one of my all-time favorite commanding officers. He looked at me and he said he said, "You're right, Rabbi." He said, "You know, I really appreciate you bringing this to my attention." He says, "What do you think we ought to do?" He said, "Do you want me to talk to the staff and tell them to lay off?" And I said, I said, "That would work for you and me, but I don't think it works for them." I think we have to model the behavior that we want rather than say it to them. And here's the interesting thing. Within about two months, nobody on the staff was using profanity except for the deputy

40:23 Commanding officer who was doing it just to irritate us basically. So, you know, it very powerful. I think when we, you know, stand our ground in terms of deportment, and I know this is kind of off topic, but when we stand our ground in terms of deportment and we're willing to hold ourselves accountable, it can it can have a, you know, a quite positive impact on the people around us. And so I, you know, to go back to our subject, when I'm, you know, involved in an administration, I look to be very careful about my conduct, right? So that people can see that, you know, there are standards and I'm going to hold myself to the standards and I'm going to hold, you know, everyone, you know, who's involved with this, you know, to those same standards, so that we all can work together as effectively as possible, you know, as a team. So to go back into the reasons why people you know would employ you as a fiduciary, we talk about real estate, we talk about taking over business and the third area I think was messes or I think litigation. One of the areas you know the attorneys bring you in is they need to work with somebody whatever the entity is but they're working with you in some capacity of either litigation or litigation process, probate administration, trust administration or some other sort of lawsuit. Talk a little bit about your and I have to say I really learned from your method of communicating with attorneys doing your weekly stash report something I've kind of adopted to key partners in my business too the way you do it because you always wonder you know what's the right amount of communication I don't want to pester people but I also want to make sure that I'm clear and I'm on record and sometimes I want to remind somebody hey the ball's in your court not in mine but so talk a little bit about your experience on working in litigation and working with attorneys and how that is an important part of your relationship as a fiduciary. Yeah.

42:18 So, I mean and this is of course the most challenging part of the business, right? When people are angry with other people, tempers are afraid and there's money on the table, right? And most of the time we're talking about a passing of generational wealth. And it's actually a rare circumstance where the heirs don't know that they're getting it, right? It does happen. And it's it is it's an interesting phenomenon. So, you know, when there's actual money on the table, in my experience, it brings out either the best or the worst in people. Rarely is it, you know, neutral. And when it brings out the worst, so then, you know, that has to be dealt with. And the attorneys hand can handle the legal side and there are some attorneys who are also good in handling kind of the people's side. But sometimes the attorneys are so busy they have so many matters before them. So it's very helpful for them to have someone who's handling more of the people's side of the dispute. And so, you know, they may bring me in, you know, purely, you know, for that reason. Again, it's, you know, they can bring me in as someone who's, you know, I'm not in this camp or that camp per se. I this is what I do professionally. And sometimes that will you know that will sort of win the day in terms of getting people to realize we're it's better off if we stop fighting and let you know a professional handle it. And you know once so once I'm asked to potentially be involved in a matter first of all I start tracking the case every day. This is actually something I learned from you. So, you know, most well the courts in California certainly they all have online access. You can look up the case access. Oftentimes you can look up documents, etc. So I can

44:22 See how the case is progressing, you know, and I look I each morning it's the first thing I do. I check all the cases that I'm working on or potentially working on to see what's going on. And oftentimes for whatever reason, this isn't to cast dispersions, lawyers aren't doing that. And so, you know, when I see something, I can let them know, hey, you know, I saw this, just wanted to make you aware of it. And that's very useful for them. And also then I think once they know that this is what I'm doing. So then they rely on me to do it, to kind of be their eyes and ears in these heated situations so that if there's a need for them to have to step in more assertively, they can. And otherwise they know that you know again I have the con in a sense and so they don't necessarily have to be as tightly focused on a particular matter as you know as they otherwise might have to be as the only person tracking it. So and then once I'm formally appointed so then again part of my job I think is to keep the relevant parties informed and equally informed. So that's why I developed the weekly updates that I do so that everybody gets the same email, everybody sees the same summary of events and everybody has the same opportunity to comment, chime in, ask questions, raise concerns, whatever it is, right? And again, it for the for the lawyers, they realize I'm going to get a summary each week so I can focus on other things if I need to. For other parties involved, they're not sitting there wondering, gosh, what's happening to my inheritance, right? Am I ever going to give, you know, and it helps it helps set expectations? So that they're, you know, because I think people go into this if you're, you know, someone's an heir to an estate, they think, oh, we're going to go into

46:24 Probate and a couple weeks later I'm going to get my check, right? It does not work that way. So, it does not work that way. No, not at I mean even a short probate can take six to nine months, right? So part of my job is to set expectations and be the source for you know what reasonably can be expected to happen. Not that I have a crystal ball or anything like that, but you know if you want to get as clear a picture of what the future looks like, you know, probably you know Kevin's going to give it to you. And again, if there's been a dispute, so then the fact that I'm keeping people informed that can help, you know, keep tempers in check. It can Yes. You know what I'm saying? It okay, I know what's happening. Nothing's being hidden from me. I can see who's getting this information. So, you know, everybody's getting it. And you know I'll at this point I'll invest a little faith in the process rather than continuing to fight. So to be honest with you, I don't I don't know how many fiduciaries do a weekly report like that from people I've talked to. I must be the only one doing it. But for me, it's a great benefit for me as well because toward the end of each week, I go through and I sit down and I look at the progress each of the cases I'm handling is making. And then I can also then make plan what do I need to get done? What's the highest priorities?

48:03 So for my own work, I can make sure that I'm again, it's kind of like a form of triage. I'm making sure the most important issues are addressed as well. And then also it gives me an opportunity to find out is there a looming concern that no one has expressed to me and that's not on my radar for some reason. And that way I can address it and hopefully get a get ahead of it or at least be on top of it so it doesn't become a ma major problem down the road. I've worked with several fiduciaries in the last five six years been doing probate. Never received anything like that. And I have to tell you as a team member on one of the states, it's funny because I just read it more. It's interesting to me even the parts that don't relate to me, right? There's certain properties I'm involved in ones. But what's happened is a couple times I just follow the drama on one of the properties I'm not involved with and sure enough somehow comes to me like and I and I'm up to speed or I can go back and check the email real quick and see what the story is with it. So, I do think that there's, you know, communication is the lubrication in a well-run organization. And I do think that, your weekly SAS report, particularly on complicated estates, which is a great tool, and I know I appreciate that. Like I said, I've, well, I'm not commonly involved in as complicated.

49:21 I just find that process to be helpful. I more likely have different attorneys I have multiple cases with, and so this I just do kind of the opposite. Summarize, you know, three or four not complicated cases, but at least give the latest status update. It's fantastic. I mean, I haven't had a non-complicated case. I've had some proposed to me as being non-complicated, but they didn't end up being that way. I think, you know, look, I tell people, where can I add value? I mean, if it's not a complicated case, so then, you know, the family member executive can probably handle it or, you know, a little coaching. Well, and I say complicated plus complex. Complicated meaning multiple complications. Some cases have like 20 different properties versus they're all they're all complex in that there's multiple stages from opening to closing. Every probate is like that for me. But typically it's just one property at a time, one issue at a time. And some of the ones that you're dealing with are multiple properties and multiple issues and multiple parties, multiple entities, multiple taxing rules. I mean you know and again you get paid to keep all that straight. I don't have to keep it all straight, but I have to be able to respond at a fingertips notice. And so I find your report to be really helpful to do that. So, well, and again, part of the part of the reason of doing the reports is so, you know, if I need, you know, quick a quick response, people have the background. Yes. And they can they you know, it's kind of in the memory banks, right? And so then you and this is this has happened a couple times on some of the stuff we worked on, right?

50:53 So you already you were prepared. I didn't have to back brief you for an hour on what was going on. You have history and so you could, you know, think about it for a little while and say, "Hey, I think this or whatever." Right? So it in the end, you know, reading a weekly summary for, you know, 15, 20 minutes each week. You know, it saved enormous amount of time, energy, worry, etc. At the point where it was needed. Reduces the drama. It's easier to respond. On the flip side, it was one there was a story I was following every week and then I think yesterday discovered it's just a nothing burger. Like after all that the door that's it like I'm waiting for some dramatic story. Well, there's a nuclear reactor behind the door. No, it's just a door. Wow, that was kind of but anyhow, that's the nation probate is hold the phone. As predicted by mua, there was no plan. There was no plan. Oh, to be to be continued. But we continued. Okay, good. Well, I'll look forward to reading the latest episode in my the sag of Kevin Bemel's fiduciary duties. Okay, good. We'll continue that. Well, Kevin, you and I have a lot to talk about. We talk about regularly a lot. We work on regularly. I could talk for a while. I'm kind of realize I'm up against the time period. So, I first I just want to thank you for being available to share this. I think it's a really important area that as a real estate agent, I've really encouraged attorneys to say, "Listen, if you're not going to be the fiduciary for your client and 99% don't even consider that somebody has to if their client's not able to do the job properly." And, you know, I think even in smaller and modest cases, having professional is something they should consider and look at if they can find the right one.

52:38 Certainly in complicated cases having an attorney and then expecting some heir to step in would be overwhelming in some of the cases you work with. So I just really appreciate you sharing this as a solution potentially for more of us and appreciate and if somebody wants to get a hold of you I know the answer here but we answer the question somebody who wants more Kevin Bemel in their life and more professional fiduciary what was the best way to get in touch with you on that? Yeah. So first of all, you can go to my website, be.com, and you'll see Bemel Companies. That's the fiduciary part of my business. And like I say, you can see the different things there. Trust administration, estate administration. I also do u multif family office services, which is kind of like the next step after the probate closes. So, those are all those are all available you know to you know to potential clients and you know happy to speak to anyone. And let me add by the way I'm also happy to speak to anyone who's thinking about getting into the same business that I'm in. You know, as you mentioned at the very beginning, there is not nearly enough people to do what needs to be done. And so, I'm part of an organization called the, Independent Trustees Alliance, and one of the things we look to do is help people get started in this industry because it's so important that good quality people get involved. So, and then the other thing is if you know if this wasn't enough, you can go to my YouTube channel, which you right here, the way to wow shows. So, one of my shows is called Trust and Estates Weekly. It may sound suspiciously like your show, Probate Weekly. And as I acknowledge, I did I did steal the name from you.

54:29 And we I talk about Trust and Estate Matters. You know, each Monday, new shows post Monday at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time. So, you know, that's another place to go. I have other shows as well on you know other aspects of my business and life. So full disclosure if you know some guests on your program on mine as well and vice it's because I watch your episodes and I find you have really good guests and we've been able to get some of them on my show as well. So again, the YouTube channel is way towell and then there's a podcast list if you want to get that and then behav.com's the email address and for more information. Kevin, thank you so much for your time today. It's really been always a pleasure. Thank you for everything we've learned and we'll continue. You're welcome. You're welcome. Thanks for the opportunity and for the rest, thank you for joining us. This is Proet Weekly. We get together with a new episode once a week. You can continue conversation at our Facebook group. Probate Weekly is the name of the group. You can go there and look for referrals out of state questions, procedures, things like that. And then if you want to get reminders, go to probateweekly.com. You can put in your email if you want, put in your phone. It's your choice. Either way you want to get reminders is fine with me. And if you scroll down, you can also get it in various audio formats if you prefer that. Or you can see the past episodes on YouTube as well. I'm Bill Ghost Probate on social media. If I can help anyway, please reach out. As always, make today your best day ever.