The Britney Spears Guardianship, with Attorney Lisa MacCarley

0:01 So often times people think about guardianships and conservatorships as being obscure, but they're in the news. recently Jay Leno famously had an issue with his wife and got it resolved. but one of those famous cases, if you've ever been to LA County Court in a regular basis, you had to have seen the protests for against Britney Spears and you wonder what was that all about? I think there was a movie made about it and a bunch of press about it. really excited to have today a woman who knows from the inside who's not only involved in this case but actually is an advocate for conservatorships and guardianship reform an advocate Lisa MacCarley an attorney Lisa thank you for joining us today well thank you for having me today Bill nice to see you and right off the bat even though I know this material I made mistake and I guess it's very important to be specific in California we have two types of these special cases guardianship and conservatorship and I think the answer is guardianships are for children and conservatorships are for adults. Is that basically right? Exactly right. So, for whatever reason, every state can break it up any way they want. Like in Arizona, guardianship refers to I think the person and conservatorship refers to the estate. But here in California, if you're over the age of 18 and someone has commenced a what we call protective proceeding to appoint someone to make decisions for you, that's a conservatorship. and Britney was most definitely in a conservatorship.

1:27 Now, most of the just by numbers when I've been involved in conservatorships, most commonly they're because something happened to the parents and they weren't available and the child was un was otherwise normal, if there was such a thing as normal, but because they were a child, they couldn't manage their affairs, needed someone to be appointed by them other than their parents to be responsible for them. So, that's one type of conservatorship. Another one is the case that you're involved with Britney where I'm sorry could have been when she was a child. It happened to be as an adult but often times as children their conservatorships, their guardianships are created because there's so much business going on somebody wants to step in and create some sort of a legal binding relationship separate from the parents. Is that how that works? Well, let me let me just clarify. So basically conservatorships of the estate would be warranted whenever I'm sorry guardianship. Let's let's start with the children first. So children have guardians. A guardianship of the estate would be necessary anytime a child, a person under the age of 18 receives property, whether it's money that is inherited or money or piece of property, somebody passes away. So anytime a child has money of their own, you need a guardianship of the estate. When a parent is unable to take care of a child for various sad reasons whether it's incarceration or substance abuse or other calamity then another person will be appointed as guardianship of the person. So always when a child receives money a parent especially would be appointed as guardianship of the person of the estate and then only when a parent there is no parent available do we need a guardianship of the person of a child. Got it. And so guardianship of the estate would be maybe a child actor actress or celebrity where they have money coming in that's their own money as opposed to their family money. And then exactly who's the guardian of that estate would be the parent absent a parent or if the parents not capable

3:31 Then that's when we appoint somebody else to be the guardian. Exactly. Okay. Now conservatorship is when an adult is not able to manage their own affairs. And these things happen often when there's a you know medical accident or a car accident people become incapacitated or they're elderly and have mental issues and or if they have some sort of a breakdown. Without getting the spe specifics, let's just talk about the generality. So basically conservatorship is just an adult who doesn't have the capability of manual affairs and the court appoints somebody else. Right? So the standard is that you would get a conservatorship of your person if you are unable to provide for your own need for good health, food, clothing, and shelter. So that's the legal definition of when the court would intervene and appoint someone to make decisions for you. A person who is unable to resist fraud or undue influence or is substantially unable to manage their own financial affairs would have a conservator of the estate. So the estate as opposed the person. Got it. Mhm. And so, to go back to guardianships, when you have a child who's not capable and needs a special needs of some sort of guardianship becomes an adult, by definition, they need a new entity, but the default is going to be the parents, right? If the parents raise the child and now the child is an adult, I guess the child might make the case, hey, I don't need this anymore. The parents go to the court and say, no, we still need to be in charge. and the court makes a determination at that point as to continuing the relationship as a guardianship as opposed I'm sorry as a conservatorship as opposed to a guardianship. It's ve it happens. I mean I won't say that never happens. It's very rare. So generally the presumption is that and again I don't make up these rules and I don't agree with it.

5:20 When you're 18 years old you have the legal right to manage your money whether it's $10 or $10 million. At age 18, you're deemed to have the wisdom, maturity, and competence to manage your own money. And if it's somebody who wasn't competent before as a child, the presumptions can be the parents that the parents just have to go through another process. If we're talking about special needs children, that's a common the presumption is the parents would continue, but they would change from guardianship to conservatorship, right? So very rarely do children or people who are born with developmental disabilities ever get guardianships because the regional center and there's all kinds of basically the law would defer to the parents. It would only happen if there was a parent unavailable. But in California, once a person with developmental disabilities turns 18, they will be eligible for what is called a limited conservatorship, which is slightly different and slightly different rules, slightly different notice requirements and also slightly different orders that the court can make to protect a person with a developmental disability. Now there's a whole another world that you were involved with at least from where I sit on the outside a whole different world of circumstances. I mean you have people who have born with medical issues. You have people who are the unfortunate victims of some sort of a accident or medical accident or car accident. There's only the world of people who for whatever reason we might judge are no longer capable of being on their own. Maybe because of drug use, maybe because of some sort of mental breakdown. And there's a process for conservatorship which basically means somebody is taking away some of their rights and the court has to agree to that. And so there was a time I think when that bar was much lower and I believe we raised it I want to say like the 60s or 70s or 80s and the laws were somewhat updated and the case that you were involved with Britney Spears it you know there people say oh she's crazy we should have this thing or not but I think the thing that people appreciate is we should have a high bar because you're really talking about taking somebody's rights away in her case the fruits of the labor whether you like her

7:24 Music or style or don't she earned it and we're taking away her ability to make decisions what to do with that money in some cases. Correct. Oh, absolutely. But Britney Spears was a very exceptional case. I mean, I haven't seen anything quite like it, but basically she never qualified for a conservatorship. She was deprived of her due process rights to counsel to be afforded copies of the documents that and declarations that were presumably sent to the court to conserve her. Basically, Britney Spears conservatorship was about as rancid and unconstitutional as it gets. She was absolutely deprived of her due process rights and of course then made to work, then made to share the labor the fruits of her labor, then made to pay child support in the amount of $40,000 a month by basically a group of people that conspired to deprive her of her constitutional rights and civil liberties. Now, your role in this case was So, I've never even met Britney. she knows who I am and of course I know who she is. But my role was that during COVID in the summer of 2020 I was invited to attend a free Britney rally and not because I had any great qualifications but because I had already identified by summer of 2020 serious flaws, serious defects with the probate court system in the way that we conserve people. and I began to advocate for changes in the court system itself.

9:06 So the Free Britney activists, mostly younger people, her fans, her amazing fan base, got in touch with me and said, "Would you come to a rally?" And I said, "Sure." Because it was COVID. everything was shut down. There's nothing to do. And I was probably just as depressed and unhappy as everybody else in the world of remember wondering what's going to happen to all of us. And so I went and at the rally I met a pair of journalists a lady named they were called Britney's Gram, Tess Barker and Babs Gray and they had been doing an ongoing podcast about Britney and they came up to me and they said we have these papers can you tell us are these like legitimate court papers and you know I've been in business by then 28 years but so I took a look and that is when I discovered that Britney had attempted to hire her own attorney, a an attorney that actually has a very famous last name, Adam Streisand, who is related to Barbara. And he was not allowed to represent Britney on the basis that there had been some type of doctor's report filed stating that Britney lacked the capacity to retain her own attorney. The challenge, let me set the stage a little bit for people weren't there. So when you say the free Brit, was this one of those was held in front of the Mosk courthouse? Yes. Yes.

10:31 Could you imagine the courage that I must have had? So there I am a worldwide practicing attorney. and but I felt some empathy for them and I was curious to know why they were protesting. People like myself, I had knew about the conservatorship of Britney Spears, but I didn't have all the details because the files were basically sealed and locked away. Now, that's interesting. Just for a note, here in LA County, I'm sure it varies by state law, but in California law, probate files are almost all available online. conservatorships and guardianships are adjudicated in probate court, but conservatorship and guardianship files are almost always sealed and the documents are either not available, certain pieces are available, certain pieces are not available. Actually, there are there are certain documents that are routinely deemed confidential. for example, medical records of some sort. Sometimes there's also files like we have to provide when we're a conservatorship names, addresses, social security number, birthdays. So basically all the confidential information that you don't want public to this day we have to provide it to the court. They keep it all of that information in every conservatorship. But what happened in Britney's case, the entire file was kept under seal. So, nobody in the public, none of the news reporters, not even Britney had access to her own file. And I can verify that because as my one of the things I do for my attorney clients as I track cases and I'll update them about the probate notes and upcoming hearings and results and I'll send documents. You know, I try to be almost like a paralegal supporting the attorneys I work with. And I thought, well, it' be kind of fun, you know, as I have of a podcast, why not, you know, find out about the Britney case and maybe I have some, you know, insight to, you know, maybe the procedures I see or something. And I knew the I knew the room they were doing it in. I was there. If you're at the building, it was like overwhelming.

12:28 You felt like you're at a rock concert just surrounded with like teenage girls screaming and with placards and all that. It was kind of it was definitely a crazy scene. but unlike other cases, I couldn't find the status on some of the things in the way that we would on a normal case. which is very interesting. Yeah. And that that was part of the process. Now, we went to the court room that day. There would be a print out with all the actions. It was interesting what you could find out. You knew something was going on, but you couldn't really tell what it was. Right. Exactly. Well, so the probate notes generally, in other words, the summary of what the court was ruling on and what was being looked at. Those generally were available, but they're fairly innocuous. So they'll say you know there's Britney's 13th account current Jamie Spears's 13th account current request for attorney fees. you kind of knew what the judge was going to talk about, but you didn't we didn't necessarily have all the details because the accounting itself, for example, would have been either file filed with a motion to seal or the relevant information that the tidbits would have been redacted from the public file. Now, based on your view of the case, obviously you haven't met her, but sort of you know, you obviously follow the case and people who know her and such. One thing I've learned about, you know, artists like Britney, I don't know anything about her at all really, but like her, you know, famous singers and actors and such, is while they might seem frivolous as a character, you know, what you see in the world is them playing the role of their character. And at least that's my experience. And the other part I've noticed is almost all really successful celebrities are incredibly viciously successful business people. Like sharp as a tack. They know business. They negotiate. They've been around so many contracts. They focus on what they want to do. What's your sense of her? Obviously, here's a case where they're saying she wasn't capable of managing her affairs.

14:21 Well, at first I say there's no way she could be the continue to put out the creative content she did, like it or not my style. Never went to a show. Never bought a song. But you have to look back and say she had her own show in Vegas. She had these albums. She had these tours. You can't do that without being bright, smart, organized, thoughtful, communicative. Right. Am I missing something here? See, you're absolutely right. And that was when I began to kind of peel away at how she ended up in this conservatorship and how they treated her during the conservatorship. It really became dis reprehensible to me because you are absolutely right. She never needed a conservatorship. What happened was that they used the conservatorship to manipulate her to because of the family the prior family law proceeding. So unfortunately in these courts you know there are mostly at that time mostly white older men who maybe in this case her family law court she certainly did not comply with the order to get a driver's license but Bill they took her babies away. She was a nursing mother. In her body were so many hormones and chemicals and all of the good stuff to be a mommy to two little boys that were born 12 months apart. Her family law proceedings started just weeks if not maybe months after her second baby was born. They kept her babies away from her. They kept her babies away from her under the ruse that she was not following some stupid court order to produce a driver's license.

16:02 There was, as far as I know, no drug test that ever found that she was dangerous. But even if Britney was engaging in behavior that was dangerous to her children, like we know about that famous car incident where the baby was on her lap or something. They could have created orders that she was not allowed to drive with these babies, but they kept her them away for her for days and sometimes weeks. They separated this 26-year-old mom whose entire body was flooded with the need to love and protect these babies. Any woman would have been traumatized. any woman would have acted out and have felt the way and behaved the way she was. I would have I was I was actually divorced as a young mom and I know how difficult that was to be separated, you know, to hand the children over to dad. I had a wonderful co-parent who never kept me away from the children. But Kevin Federline and his attorneys bullied Britney into not having her own children. She should have seen them every day. And you know, look, I have a daughter who's pregnant with her third child.

17:20 Women and hormones, a whole thing. I tell I tell all the time, "Honey, you have a past for being crazy. You're pregnant. You just tell me you were pregnant," they'll go, "Oh, that's why you're crazy. That's okay." Like, we get it, right? If you've been around women pre-post, it's just a whole thing going on there. And the whole thing with the driving with a child in a lap, you know, I grew up in a time where that we didn't have car seats. like you sat without a seat belt front seat, back seat, you know, there's all kinds of metal pieces hanging out of the cars. Somehow we managed to get through that. My mother was never arrested for being for child endangerment. Somehow we managed to make it all work. You look at the cars we used to drive in. I don't know. And I and I really think that some of these rules are created by a government that wants to have the ability to take people's rights away. And here's a case where you can argue about how stringent the government's right should be on auto safety, but it's always the government has more power in auto safety so they can use it in these cases to take away people's rights. in this case in a family law case. So very challenging. So the woman was just to finish the story is that they told her basically the lawyers and these other people that were involved that if you agree to be a conservatee, if you agree to be a good girl, then you will begin to see your children again. It was a masterpiece of manipulation poor for poor Britney. And I mean, she talks about this occasionally like all she wanted was to be reunited with her children. She agreed to allow her father and I'm sure quite reluctantly agreed, okay, you can be my conservator. And then they made her work and then they took her money. It's it's really just And you're not talking about just money.

19:02 I don't know a lot about her, but I do know at one point she had her own show in Vegas. You're talking about real money. Yes. Real money. And they got percentages. And so here is a woman that was entrapped in a conservatorship that she didn't need with a conservator that she didn't want. She was made to work and you know the threat was basically well you know do you really want to embarrass yourself by going back to court and she had gone back to court and wanted to have her rights to self autonomy restored but they made her work and they took a percentage of it and then Kevin Federline was given $40,000 a month in child support and this is from a woman who was legally classified for 13 years as unable to manage her own financial affairs, unable to provide for her own needs for food, clothing, and shelter. And here she is supporting people, making millionaires out of people that, you know, completely illegitimately. Seems to me that they should have held all her money for her own benefit over time on the idea that if she's not capable at some point, maybe she runs out of gas and can't continue to earn money. And now you have money put away and saved for her. But instead they put it looks to me like they put on a treadmill and just kept her going and going and going to pay the bills. Heartbreaking. so you know one of the things I think I'm a little older than you, but one I remember the movie that I think really changed this area tremendously was One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. It was a that was the first movie I ever saw. Oh wow.

20:36 Okay. I was like 11 or 12. So it was a popular book but it was made in a movie. It was masterfully acted and done and you know it's art and so you can say wow it's a masterpiece of art. The question is how reflective was it of the general problem right? It's one of those things where you have a movie about a problem and that might be the only example or that movie can be about the problem and it represents the entire piece and we end up making public policy. I think a lot based on that movie there was a lot of a lot of action towards freeing people from getting mental health as a result and we overshifted by u making it impossible for the state to take people who are really dangerous to society and we're all flooded with those people. We see them all over the streets all over the place. And now and now we have the law in the books that's used. I mean, nobody thought Britney was a danger to anybody else, but maybe her and her kids. Maybe. But nobody ever said she was going to murder a person on the street. She was a danger to society as a whole, right? No, that was never. So, basically, you're talking about the criteria for a very different type of conservatorship. Yes. Lanterman-Petris-Short, LPS, otherwise known in my community, is a mental health conservatorship. the mental health conservatorship is very different than the one that Britney was placed in. and I think obviously intentionally because it's not as lucrative of a LPS or mental health conservatorship, just give a quick example terminates every year unless there is a reason a finding that she that the person who's conserved still needs it. So had Britney been in see an LPS conservatorship which I don't think she ever would have qualified for that would have terminated on its own of its own every year and they would have had to go back every year to prove that she was unable to she was gravely disabled a danger to herself or danger to others. I mean obviously Britney Spears never qualified for that but she never qualified for any conservatorship. But it seems to me that

22:39 The other side used Britney as crazy to confuse the public to get the public on their side, not the non Brittney fans and almost kind of isolates the Britney fans, right? If all you have are teenage girls screaming free Britney and other people like me look at this and go, "Wow, I guess she must have really had some mental problems or something." And I don't know the difference legally, then it doesn't seem like an outrage. But when you describe the process now, I go, "Well, that's outrageous." I mean, to say she couldn't support I can't support myself financially as well as she could. Whatever her deficiencies were, she could make more money in a couple weeks than I do all year and then go back to being a mother if she wanted to. Right. Exactly. And that's and that's the shame of it is that what was done to Britney was, I believe, fraudulent. It was a scam. They conspired to put her in this bubble and kept her there for 13 years where she was not allowed to know. she was not allowed to speak with an attorney to tell her that you had a right to counsel. So, going back to the story of how I became involved. So, I go to this free Britney rally for the first time in July of 2020. I'm handed these documents and that's when I see Britney picked an attorney who showed up in court and he tried to advocate for someone other than Jamie Spears to be the conservator. Britney was willing to accept assistance, which to me indicated that she had good insight, that she understood that she was having trouble, but she needed some help. And Adam Streisand was kicked out of the courtroom. He was told, "You're not allowed to represent Britney. We have a doctor's declaration by a very famous doctor named Dr. Edward Spar." And Dr. Spar apparently communicated through some declaration to Reva Goetz who was the presiding judicial officer. She was a commissioner that Britney did not have the capacity to retain counsel. They kick Adam Streisand out of the courtroom. He had never been in a pro a conservatorship proceeding before. He left and then he says, "Well,

24:44 There's nothing I can do. They have a doctor's declaration." But Bill, I'm here to tell you on the record that there was never a doctor's declaration. Dr. Spar has subsequently been interviewed and there is a documentary called Spears versus Spears and he says, "I never met Britney Spears." So what they did on February 4th, 2008, they lied to Adam Streisand and then they spent 13 years covering it up. Wow. I'm writing a book about it. I have all the I have all of the documentation. I have all the proof. I have all the declarations. It what happened to Britney is a disgrace. And it was even more disgraceful that when she finally heard that she had the right to counsel, it took a while, but that's when she addressed Judge Brenda Penny and said, "This conservatorship has caused me trauma, exploitation, and abuse." And she was right about that. Now, it's interesting you say that those words because I used to go to court every day. judge Penny is the head as the senior I think of the of the probate judge not the head of the department presiding probate judge presiding probate judge but there's something but she at the time she was a senior and there was a presiding judge [unclear] and then he moved on and she got promoted or whatever anyhow I had been in her court once a week she was phenomenal and it turns out she knows an attorney friend of mine that work together as attorneys and of all the judges I had actually met her like in the hallways my friend introduced me and she said Hello. And she'd recognized me like, "Oh my gosh, Judge Penny recognized me." So excited.

26:18 And I remember seeing that the Britney Spears thing was in her court and I had heard it was a miscarriage of justice. I Well, that doesn't sound right cuz Judge Penny wouldn't put up with any nonsense. Like she is a nononsense. What's the bottom line here? Let's move this thing forward. And so it sounds to me like that's where it got cleared up. No, she participated in there's no question. No. Yes, she participated in the cover up because she knew what had happened because she was then the presiding supervising attorney in the department of lawyers that reviewed cases. There is no way that she didn't know that number one, Britney Spears was entitled to an attorney of her own choice. They selected their favorite, and I call him a crony, call him a minion, whatever you want to call him. The judges selected their favorite guy to be Britney's attorney and deprived Britney. And that is a blatant violation of her due process rights under the Constitution of the State of California and the United States. There's not any question about it. I mean, I could probably if you gave me screen sharing, I could show you where this happened. Britney knew. Britney found out through the rallies, through watching me, through watching what was being described. And finally, Adam Streisand spoke up and said, "Yeah, I showed up and I was told there was this capacity declaration." So, that's how she discovered and that's where she found her voice to tell Judge Penny, I don't want to be in this conservatorship anymore. her court-appointed attorney stepped aside and that's when she was able to retain Mathew Rosengart to represent her and the conservatorship was over six months later.

28:01 Who was the attorney that the court appointed before? His name was Sam Ingham. Okay. I don't know him. Sam Ingham. Wow. So I can't wait to read through the book and learn about Judge P. I like I said I met her I mean what do I really know? I was in court, you know, regularly saw her. And to me, I thought she was honest. I want to do right. Miss one, but she missed this one. And the problem with all those people is when you're a politician and you make a mistake, you spend the rest of your career, I think, covering the mistake because that's how you move up is avoiding errors. And so I mean, it doesn't ring it doesn't ring true for me about her. But in general, people in that position of power, the only way you rise up is make sure you don't have any black spots on your record. and this would be a terrible black puppet came out. Wow. Right. Right. And then and then she tells the world that this was a voluntary conservatorship. That's just That's what I heard. I remember reading that, too. It's not It was never voluntary because in order to have something be voluntary, you have to know all the facts. You have to have all of the information ahead of you. So, if Britney was being told, which she was, that she wasn't allowed to see the documents that they used to conserve her, that was part of a court order, that she was not allowed to talk to another attorney, she was not allowed, she never got served with a citation, which is basically like the summons that tells you that you're being conserved.

29:23 She her due process rights were violated so egregiously. There is no way that anybody involved in these proceedings did not know that what had been done. And the worst part is when Reva Goetz told Adam Streisand on the afternoon of February 4th, 2008, I have a capacity declaration. She most certainly did not. Wow. I can't I never met Reva Goetz so I don't know some of these people come before I got involved in probate. So, where stands today is she's now unwound from the Yeah, she's been unwound. I'm I'm kind of I'm taking my own social media break right now. So, I'm not really following. I hope I've seen that she's in Mexico. I hope she's living her best life. I hope she's having so much fun. the boys are back in her life even though she was deprived of so much time with them and misconstrued and manipulated. Like the whole thing, the whole thing was really just a master class in manipulating a very unsophisticated family from Louisiana. They had no idea what was being done and as a result they've all been extraordinarily damaged by the legal system. All of them, mother, father, all of them. One of the things my father was an attorney I would say old school and I remember as a kid he practiced in [unclear] California but occasionally came to Mosk to the count you know that was a county courthouse for at the time and it seemed to me that in those days there was decorum in the court that was different right people you couldn't come in unless you're dressed properly unless you people all address the court with great respect and reverence and also maybe you know my spiritual bias come out a little bit but people took an oath of office, it was very serious. And one of the changes I've seen is I'm not here to tell people whether they should or should not have a religious or spiritual connection. But what I can say is I can see that the lack of that makes their willingness to lie about things in a courtroom much easier. Whether you're

31:26 Religious or not, and I'm not saying therefore because I am, I don't ever lie. I hope I don't. I try not to, but we're all human. But I've just noticed that in my lifetime, lying in court went from being extremely rare and people wouldn't do it and they would almost burst out and admit they were wrong in court in the 70s and 80s to where today people will say anything if enough money is involved. I mean I don't think that this has is a religious issue. I think it has more to do with just bas basically people are not in a community. They're not in a team. [unclear], in other words, that used to be that if you were in a small town USA, your neighbors, your friends, everybody knew who you are. Everyone knew who you belong to. Everyone knew you know what your grades were and how who your friends were. But now we are so far spread out. We don't really even have community anymore. I mean, I have people that live, you know, a stone's throw away from me, I've never said hello to just because the nature of the a suburban neighborhood anymore. So, I think that has to do with has a lot to do with it. I don't know that it has so much to do with money, but it's just that we are now raising children in an isolated fashion. And they're even saying that let's say parents are exhausted because they no longer have the grandparents to help them raise children. they don't no longer have aunts and uncles and cousins. so I think I think that is a feature of modern life. And so when there's no one to account to, then you know your behavior can be much more outrageous. Well, for the record, my wife's at my grandkids right now and I'm going there at 5:00. So we're the few grandkids parents are involved. I'm they're the greatest. But I do think you're right. There's an issue of anonymity that you get away with saying things and then you can walk out of the courtroom and not see anybody. Whereas I think in those days, you know, you were black ballalled or you were, you know, shunned or you were no longer welcome in the community. And there I see that. But in court today, I you know, I remember

33:30 The first time that I was in a court matter where I said there's no way she's going to lie. There's no way she's going to lie. It's just blatant. There's no And this woman lied. And it was like in my choice. Are you stupid? Of course she would lie. There's money involved. People don't have that sense of honor anymore. You're never going to see her again. She can get away with it. And I think that's the issue. if people think they get away with it. Can you imagine then being Britney Spears and having a judge lie to your lawyer about having a doctor's declaration? I mean, and never ever being held accountable. Bill, I'm not kidding. I mean, it's it was I tracked it out. I even put it in the court file so that if you were to look for a brief by me where I try to point this out, it was so Yes. Exactly. and because of the power who was in power at the time this was all covered up. Are you concerned about naming names and retribution and what are they going to do? I know I it's a fact. If I have a if I have facts on my side, I hope they do. I mean please and actually I've gone I've gone if you follow if I was removed for Twitter from Twitter you know because you know different views that I had about violence and the current administration. Anyway, so I'm not on Twitter anymore. I was black balled from that. But if you ever found me on Twitter, you would you would see I was very open about it. And I was open about it because I researched it. I had my facts. I know what happened and I've actually sent letters I filed memorandum in the court file inviting journalists Samantha Stark, Liz Day the people in LA Times New York Times rather LA Times I've sent it out a hundred times and why no one took an interest in it I think had to do with the fact that this attorney Mathew Rosengart who you know I thought that was the guy I thought you know he was a former prosecutor I was so excited for Britney me and really looking forward to her getting justice.

35:34 But he became so caught up in celebrity and didn't didn't want to read what I had talked about. Didn't want to I would see him in the hallway. He'd avoid me eventually. and I was the one that was trying to like bring Britney justice. And it never mattered to me if she hire hired me or said it wasn't about me. It was about fixing the system always because it's still corrupt. So the but at the end day did she did get unwound and she does have her freedom back in and is going forward which is which to me that's a testament to the wrongness of it in the first place right because if she wasn't capable of handling her affairs 15 20 years ago how could she possibly do it later normally you decline with age you're less energetic less mental abilities first you're incompetent [unclear] I mean no it didn't work how can that be I that's obviously impossible she signed I mean, I may I don't know her current career, but I'm actually signing multi-million dollar contracts. She must be ruled competent to manage those as well. I don't know. The whole thing to me I'm anxious to read the book when it comes out. So, let's talk about going forward. You see the system is still corrupt. Obviously, in any legal matter, you get a couple people together, you can have a conspiracy, you can have a bad outcome. But how about the system overall? I know here in California, we did have recently a change in probate law. Very minor. Not sure how it's going to work out. I think it's one of those things where we solved one problem and created two more, but okay, at least they're working on it. what do you think overall of the process of conservatorship and is there changes are positive or is there changes that you would advocate that should be made? Yeah. So, I mean, obviously this is, you know, I do consulting for Alameda County up north and this is one of the things we talk about, which is the role of court-appointed counsel. right now there seems to be this feeling that court-appointed counsel is like some something like a social worker, investigator, person that writes reports. But the worst part is that the court-appointed counsel right now is the

37:39 Person that tells the judge what to do. So when I, if you came to me for conservatorship and said, "How does this system work?" I would say, "Yeah, grandma needs a conservator, but if she protests and her court-appointed attorney tells the judge, grandma doesn't need a conservator, there will not be a conservatorship." I said, "That is simply a process out of my control." So, MacCarley, what's what would you solve? There is no training, there's no supervision, there's no accountability of court-appointed counsel, and judges need to stay the hell away from attorneys. There should not be a system where judges court-appointed counsel pick, assign, review and engage with lawyers. There should be lawyers for one side, lawyers for the other side. And the judge's job is to call balls and strikes, but that's not what's happening right now. And the other thing most importantly is that court-appointed counsel need to be trained. go up to Sacramento and find out why you need to be an advocate and protect the client's due process rights, but do not make up crap. Last week, I was in a case where an elderly woman was being scammed. One of those phone scams where she gets a phone call from someone saying that he's Mark Harmon, the actor. And so she would go to the bank and withdraw large sums of monies from her accounts, thousands of dollars, put thousands of dollars into a box and mail it off to Mark Harmon in Africa or Thailand or Fiji, whatever, wherever locations these people are. And when the daughter, the beautiful daughter brought this to the court's attention, the court-appointed attorney wrote in a report says, "So my client has spoken to Mark Harmon and she wants to send money to him and the court appoint and the judge said we're going to let her because the re the recommendation of the court-appointed account." Now I certainly doing with broad brush but in general having been in court and seen scores of court-appointed counsel I would say there's a

39:45 Couple there's two groups I've seen one is they're senior in their practice they're kind of winding down a little bit they have a good relation with the judge the judge kind of trusts them they're kind of around a little bit and the judge assigns them some of the case that's a percentage but as a general rule they're never the attorney that I would recommend if I had a client who asked me for recommendation. I know I went I had lunch with a retired judge a couple of years ago and I gave him a list of all of the court-appointed counsel that I had in my cases. I'm like legitimately here's the name of the client and here's a court-appointed counsel and the judge looked at the list. He said I wouldn't have hired any of these people. Right? It's true. Not with your own money you would never That's another thing. With your own money you would never hire. And again there might be some exceptions. So I want to paint too broad a brush. Right. There are some there are some there are some well-intentioned and the other problem is even the well-intentioned ones I think what I've seen is these cases are so complicated. There's so many details. The nature of court-appointed contested cases are contested by definition. There's so many details that that's the wrong kind of case for that attorney. Exactly. Well, see, but there's that's why I'm saying is that there's no training, there's no supervision, there's no accountability. And so what happens is, and this is my theory, is that like I would never be court-appointed counsel because I don't want to be associated with that organization. I don't want anybody to say, "Oh, Lisa, but aren't you court-appointed counsel?" I made this decision years ago, years prior to Britney Spears because of what I perceive to be this unsavory relationship between the judges and their favorites in the courtroom. I thought that was disgusting. Now, I think it's disgusting that there's court-appointed reports where they waive the requirement that the conservatee be brought to court, which is actually a statute says that a person facing conservatorship must be brought to court. So, they're using court-appointed counsel to violate due process rights. Well, and also COVID

41:48 Like the part of the hangover of COVID is there was a time when physically people, you know, thrown safety on everything's on Zoom now. Everything is they actually have this very sophisticated process. I never go to court anymore. I love it. Roll out of bed. keep my jammy bottoms on, put on a jacket. I'm like, hey, don't admit that. We're supposed to keep that secret. But not only that, even if you want to get them to court, the parking is easier. It's less crowded. Like even if you had to go to court postco, it's easier than ever. There's no reason not to. And yet, I think you're right. There's a hangover where the judges are just a little too quick to And there's another thing I've noticed now that you bring this up. I have a friend who has a family law case, divorce case where there's a court-appointed counsel for a child and how much the judge was leaning on this court. It is it's almost like the judge is no longer judging. The judge has now delegated their job to this court-appointed counsel who nobody would hire. Nobody would elect. Nobody elected that person. They're just and nobody's supervising that person. There's nobody supervises them. Kind of like, you know, shooting from the hips. I mean, could you imagine writing a report to a judge saying, "Yes, Mrs. Macintosh or whatever her name, I mean, this little old dumpy lady from, you know, a little housewife, she has a she's met Mark Harmon and she wants to continue to send money." I mean, we're talking about like taking app, you know, buy the guy, this the this criminals telling this woman to go buy Apple cards and then scratch off the back of the I mean, she's a victim of crime. And the judge said, "Well, but we're just, you know, I don't want to, you know, take that away from her." She enjoys it.

43:29 Yeah. And yet the probate attorneys that you refer that you mentioned, these are the attorneys who work for the judges, do the research, review the documents, make recommendations procedurally to the judge, or I should say highlight the judge the issues that the judge has to adjudicate. I always find that number one, they're all sharp as a tack almost all. That's actually a pretty bright group of people for the most part. And two, they seem modest enough to point to the judge at here's the issue and you have to decide judge. meaning when they recommend it's almost always overwhelmingly it should be approved because we had all the procedures there's no objections fine we're ready to go forward but when there's any objections I've never seen them you know weigh in they'll say well if this then blah if not this and blah but they're very modest to let the judge make the decision because the judge is supposed to judge attorney's not supposed that is it th those attorneys I mean again if it was up to me if anyone cared about my opinion what they would be doing is mostly reviewing these petition s because remember there's thousands like they have a thou at least in LA County I believe you would it would be easy to say there's at least a thousand new probate conservatorship guardianship trust petitions filed each month that's and remember that every month so there's accumulation because these cases don't always go away either like I have conservatorships that started I have one that was my old case started in 2008 was actually another young woman who really did need a conservatorship ship. So, I've had cases that long.

44:58 But so not only is it all of the old cases, but every month another 1,000 cases. And of course, some of them drop off, people die, probates get closed, trust matters settle, but the case load is tremendous. And you there still to me is feeling like these probate attorneys in the office do a pretty good job of making sure that the constitutional rights that the notice requirements that the prima facie what we call it the baseline of these petitions are accurate are good. Yeah. And these on one hand you're frustrated when they're exacting on the procedures. On the other hand these are designed to protect our rights. And so if you don't like the law you know you can elect an official and remove the law but don't complain about the law. The law's on the books because somebody made a decision. and it was for our benefit. One of the areas of attorney since we kind of covered a broad range of one that we've left not got to. I imagine you work with from time to time are professional fiduciaries. People whose job it is is to act on behalf of a client. they might not be they're appointed maybe they're approved by the court. They're not necessarily appointed by the court but maybe somebody say you know I'm I'm supposed to handle this matter but I don't have the ability. I'm going to hire so and so to do it for me. or there's two people arguing. they agree on independent as a third party. Now, there's a group of people who there's just not enough of those attorneys of all of all the law. To me, I say from a career point of view, if you're looking for an opportunity, to me, that seems to be the spot that I would work on. Right.

46:23 So, what you're talking about are the prof what are now California licensed professional fiduciaries and they actually play a vital role in helping move matters forward for number of reasons. I mean, I've had cases where the elder simply did not have a relative around that we just didn't have anybody from the family. It wasn't any lack of love or caring. They just didn't have the capacity to take care of a loved one. of course to help resolve disputes between children that don't like each other. That's another reason for professional fiduciary. But in fact, let me just clarify. They are generally appointed. there is an order that appoints a professional fiduciary to look after the affairs to be conservator to be successor trustee to be guardian. and so and I would agree with you that that is a field that people who are interested in helping seniors, helping others should definitely look into there. there. We definitely need more good professional fiduciaries in LA County, especially Orange County, any of these Southern California wealthy communities because there's so much at stake and there's no, you know, like you said, there's no community to bring people together and there is, you know, there are these networks of them and I've reached out at times for referrals and they're all almost all busy and I've like you interviewed some, I've come to know some and you know, and I've actually played the role a fiduciary because you can do one at a time without a license. That's right. And if it's a simple case, it's just getting appointed and then selling the property. I feel qualified to handle something like that.

48:04 So, and I found an administrative company that helps me out. So, I've done some of those. I don't It was very educational. I'm glad I did it. I don't look for that business. I would I just closed that my last my third one out. So, I'm not looking for any more, but if they come across I have a friend who does that as a business. I actually recruited a friend and said, "You need to do this. You need to get your license." Yeah, he was experienced in commercial property management and we end up with a huge estate and he's doing a great job. So, that's been a great source of business. Yeah. Yeah. Know, I' I've gotten a few people into the business as well. I think it's a great I think it's a good business. You can be self-employed and really make a big difference in someone else's life. Really, you're the one who makes the decisions. I think unlike some of these that doesn't mean you get everything the way you want. The court still has to approve it. there certain rules but you really have a chance to I think help somebody who is less like in my case you know there are people who inherit a property who you know have no business ability they can't even just sign the papers they can't even sign the basic documents to get appointed and probate is very intensive and we have a professional we'll say look you're going to you're going to inherit a million dollars let's take 10,000 and have this professional do all the paperwork for you or not it's your choice but I think it'll speed it up and they're customers who are I think very well served to get a professional rather than have to try to do on their own. So, it just depends. I absolutely agree. I've represented professional fiduciaries my entire career and it's always an honor to do so. and I think it makes a big difference in people's lives. Well, listen, I look I you're obviously easy to talk to as well as fascinating experiences in this Britney case. That alone we could go on for another hour or two and I look forward to I know you're working on a book when you put the book out and you're going to book tour.

49:41 Hope I can be one of your podcasts to go back at that time in between all the major ones after Joe Rogan. Here's the tea like you know exactly trying to shave this a crazy lady and then when you see when I lay it all out with the evidence in fact it's one of the things we're working on my website is you know if you know anybody that wants to sponsor it's it's hard to put it together only because I'm like you. a baby boomer so I'm not tech technical in terms of understanding but basically you'll read a chapter of the book and then I will at the end have like a QR code or something on my web page so that you can see the backup. So for example the first chapter starts with the end of the conservatorship. I thought that was a very fun day very excit like the energy and downtown LA and all the rallies and hundreds and thousands of people and cameras and everybody from around the world is there. So, I thought that would be a kind of a fun way to start. and then what I did is I found footage so that you can go to my website and see the footage of what it actually looked like and what it felt like to be there. So, that I'm going to bring people into the free Britney movement to really understand the travesty of what she was done, but also like what a beautiful expression of love that whole thing was. It was insane. I have to tell you, having, you know, I'm just there to sell a house or represent somebody buying a house and, you know, you park your car, you got to get through the thing, and there's all these people with the signs and the cheering and the energy and it was like electric. It was like going to I imagine a Britney Spears concert. It was it was that crowd. they were orderly. They didn't go interesting. They didn't go inside the building. They were very orderly, very in every regard, but it was it was really something to see. So, I've really enjoyed the chance to chat with you about it. And then again for more information Lisa best way to reach you I think we have on here on the screen below your email address your website lisamaccarley.com and your phone number and then when we have the book we'll have you back out. Oh the book is on the website. So is that the backup for the book so that you know that I'm for real for real. so and so what

51:44 I'm trying to do is bring sort of this component of not just reading a book, but you'll eventually be able to go to each chapter and read the backup itself. I just subscribed. I can't wait. We'll get we'll get there. Okay. Very good. Still working on that. Well, thanks so much and congratulations to what you've done so far. Good luck as you continue to go. And again, I think you know, as a general rule, we're very quick to say so and so is wild, crazy, whatever. take away somebody's right should be done very carefully and here's a case where you're making a case for somebody who I thought was up and up might not be. So I can't wait to read the book and get the details and get the tea so to speak. Lisa, thank you for your time. Lovely spending time with you. Thank you. And for the rest of you, this is Probate Weekly. We get together every week and interview usually an attorney or a vendor or a real estate agent, a professional to help us be more effective in serving our customers across the country. I'm Bill Gross probate and social media. If I can help any way, please reach out at Bill Gross Probate and social media. And if you have any questions on this or comments, put it down below on whatever format you're watching this. And as always, make today your best day ever. Thanks so