How a Professional Fiduciary Improves Results for Larger Estates, with Kevin Bemel

0:01 One of the parties in a probate or a trust case that I never learned about in the training but I got involved in as I started doing more business was a fiduciary. In California, we have in a subgroup of fiduciaries called professional licensed fiduciaries who do this for a living. I was really excited about this business and I had talked to a friend of mine that I thought was a perfect fit for years ago. And he got into it and as a result, not only has he built a great business, at least that's my perspective seeing on the outside, I'm sure it has its days and moments, but it's been a great service to me and to my clients and I think it's an area that also needs more people to enter into it or it's a great career opportunity for the right people. We're excited to have today a man with many hats, but what we're going to talk about today is fiduciaries, Kevin Bemel. Kevin, thanks for joining us today. Thanks for having me, Bill. Good to be on. Now, I know you and I have and for, you know, just true full disclosure here, Kevin and I know each other for, I don't know, 30-something years, 30 years or so and are close friends and we have multiple different intera- different connections along the way. I know you and I talked about here today, independent trustee and probate administrator. Now, that's one of several kind of roles or business verticals you participate in, but talk about what is an independent trustee and probate administrator versus the classic case of mom or dad or a child or a family member fitting in the role of a probate case. What's the difference with an independent trustee?

1:24 Right. So, setting aside the people you mentioned who are typically family members and in most cases don't have any experience in administrating a probate or a trust. An independent trustee is part of a group of people is not quite the right word, but it's part of the sort of ecosystem of people who do this professionally. So, in past times, banks would have trust departments and if someone needed a trustee for a trust, often times a bank would be the trustee and then someone at the bank would actually fulfill that responsibility. You also have trust companies that are companies specifically designed to serve as trustees and probate administrators. But again, they're a an organization. There's a number of individuals there. Some of them are smaller, some of them are larger. But in any case, they are they're a company organized to do that kind of work. So, an independent trustee and probate administrator like me is an individual and whereas if a trust company were appointed trustee, you know, it would say, you know, Trust Company of the West is the trustee.

2:54 In my case, it would be Kevin Bemel. Even though I have a business name under which I operate, that business cannot be the trustee because it's not the business that's licensed, it's me. So, what this does is it affords people another option, first of all. Typically independent trustees and probate administrators are less bureaucratic. We're more economical. And I mean, the this is my perception. I assume trust companies would disagree with this, but I think we're, you know, we're easier to deal with because when all is said and done, you know, the buck stops with us as opposed to you call a company and you speak to the receptionist or you speak to the account manager and then, you know, well, you know, this thing has to happen or that or you got to call this person or that person or whatever it is. Well, I can be a little salty cuz it's my podcast. I can say for a fact, nobody wants to call Wells Fargo Trust Department, they have to call. Or Bank of America or Chase or whoever.

4:12 These banks, I think have When I grew up, the bank had a local presence, they were part of your local busi- business, your city, they knew your businesses. These days, they're just anonymous globs. And the last thing And so, that whole piece of business has become so corporatized and so institutionalized, it's created opportunity for human beings to actually fill the role and I'm glad to have you as one of those. I just I just called you a human being, I think that's a compliment. I hope it is. I guess so. So I would I would add, by the way, that I think one of the reasons why banks still act as trustees and while there are still trust companies and large trust companies is, you know, if somebody has a trust with, let's say, you know, $100 million worth of assets or a quarter of a billion dollars worth of assets and those types of trusts are certainly out there. I don't know this for a fact, but I assume the multiple trusts, for example, the Rockefellers set up. So, they might be reluctant to have an independent like me act as their trustee because what happens if the trustee breaches his fiduciary duty, steals some money or this or that, you know, how do they recover that loss? I mean, the answer is that you know, we can we can we can carry what amounts to professional liability insurance.

5:38 You know, am I going to carry professional liability insurance you know, equivalent to a quarter billion dollar trust? No, frankly, I'm not. It's it wouldn't be economical, number one. And number two, while I'd love to have that piece of business and so, if there are any Rockefellers out there, you know, give me a call. I'll give you a deal. You know, I don't, you know, we're typically not acting in that very, you know, large trust and pro- probate arena. So, I think that comes just you see this kind of throughout the business world, right? Where the concern over what happens if the deal goes south, who do I sue to recover the money, that becomes the dominant issue and so then, quality of service maybe is second in line. So, where I got involved in working and then referring business to fiduciaries and frankly, kind of begged you to get into this business cuz you had all the skills and all the experiences other than the specific piece of probate was a probates where families would inherit a property, maybe half a million dollars, a million dollars, and have no experience ever having owned a house. You know, mom and dad had a house and left it to the only child or one of three children and those children never owned a home, have never run a business and from where I sit, liquidating a probate estate is really just a business, you're just a business that you're liquidating the assets as opposed to running it ongoing most commonly.

7:16 And I would say with attorneys, the problem we have is our customer just can't do the job as the executor or administrator. And while it sounds expensive to pay 5, 10, 20,000 dollars to a third party who's not needed, the reality is that if you need them to get the home sold in a timely manner and effective manner, that's where I as a real estate agent would say, I recommend we get an administrator. We'll get a better price because we can respond, we can negotiate, we can make decisions, we can keep the buyer in the deal rather than lose them. So, let's talk first about kind of the one-off property for an estate where you come in and maybe you're brought in by an attorney who the family needs professional assistance. Or in some cases where there's a conflict and they can't decide who should run it and the attorney may recommend you're doing it as a professional as opposed to an amateur or do-it-yourself. Right. Well, so many of the acts of a of a globally, they're called personal representative, whether it's an executor, an executrix, an executrix, an administrator, all of those fall under the category of personal representative.

8:38 So much of what a personal representative does relies on experience and being able to make what amounts to good judgment calls. And when a person doesn't have experience, so that Okay, that's not there. And when and then also making good judgment calls becomes very difficult. You can get the best advice in the world, but if you have no experience in that arena, so you won't necessarily know that you're getting good advice or bad advice or you won't be able to evaluate which advisor's advice is more reliable, let's say. So, I think this is where I'll share a real life example. An estate that I was administrating a number of years ago. So, I closed my part of the administration and a property went This was actually it was a there was a trust and also a probate. So, through the trust, a property, it was a house, went to the beneficiary of the trust. And so, my work was basically concluded at that point after all the assets were distributed. So, I noticed recently, just out of curiosity, what was going on with this particular property, and I looked it up, and I see that the beneficiary sold the property for probably somewhere between 75% of what the property is worth. Ouch.

10:34 Now, and that's a big hit. We're talking about something in the neighborhood of $70,000 less than it's worth. I mean, I that's for most of us that's real money. Right. Now, how did this come about? Well, I'm pretty sure I know who the beneficiary went to in order to have the house listed and sold, and I know from past dealings with that person that she tends to undercut the market, I think for her own benefit, frankly. So, here's someone and this is someone who had at least one other time had sold bought and sold a property, but was not experienced in it. And so, you know, there you go. For her to have hired a professional to handle, you know, this aspect, you know, even if it cost her $15,000, she still would have been at least $50,000, you know, to the better. Right. A- and so, you know, those are the kind of real-world issues that come up. And I do think that this is a broader It's a broader issue in the whole estate planning and probate and trust administration world. So, I was meeting with somebody yesterday who was explaining to me that she was reluctant to go along with her husband's desire to create a trust, create an estate plan, and all this kind of stuff. And so, I explained her I said, "Well, you know, if God forbid your husband dies, and there is no trust, so, since as you indicated to me, the house is in his name alone, so, to get the house in your name may require filing a probate. That probate could cost you easily $20,000, maybe more, whereas to do a proper trust,

12:38 It might not cost more than two or $3,000, maybe $5,000 at the most. So, there's a tremendous savings there monetarily, but also in terms of aggravation, all those other things that typically people are going through at the time when an estate needs to be administered. So, presumably they're grieving the person who's died. So, all of that is going on. And so, to load on top of that, dealing with all the financial and administrative issues can be too much. Yeah. And so, what is you know, what is your peace of mind worth? Right. You know, as you contemplate being in that situation. Yeah, I think you know, it is and I'm making a professional judgment, not a legal judgment. My professional opinion is there should be way more cases where even a sole heir or family should bring a professional to deal with this, because they're going to make those they're going to ask those questions ahead of time, they're going to follow through on those details, and in the long run get a better result than somebody doing on their own. And I've seen this time and time again in my own business. Now, there's another group of cases that you get involved with that I've seen where there's two parties, and maybe it's two different siblings, or it's two different family members at different levels, and you know, who has the priority is at is at issue. And the meantime, there's assets to be marshaled and perhaps sold and all that. There's work to be done while the percentage of the winnings is determined down the road. And so, both parties will agree on or the court will direct a third party to step in that role. So, I see you do that. On one hand, I know you don't want to step into a lawsuit because you are personally

14:42 Stepping into the job, right? You can't hide behind a corporate umbrella like a lot of businesses can. But at the same time, the those two parties need somebody to step in, or else things can't get moving. So, talk a little bit about the circumstances that you play in those roles, and kind of what are the key things you focus on? So, I mean, it turns it turns out that in general, where I'm not known to one of the people who are already involved, the types of cases that seem to come my way are just that. There's some kind of dispute going on between the heirs. And at some point, and I think this is happening increasingly frequently, the judge will say, "Look, I think at this point you need to find a professional fiduciary to act as the administrator so that we can get this thing moving." Now, typically it seems to take a year or so to get to that point, which is which is a shame. Yes.

15:50 You know, because just to digress for a minute, typically heirs want to get their money. And so, as the time period for the administration the lengthens, the temptation to take an advance on their inheritance increases. And those advances, at least in some cases, come with you know, kind of a pretty high cost. So, you know, at the point where someone comes to me and says, "You know, hey, here's what's going on. We've got a probate, there's you know, a second wife, and there's a child from the first marriage, and you know, the child hates the you know, the you know, stepmother, and won't even acknowledge her as saying, you know, would you consider getting involved in this situation?" So, at that point, you know, I have to make a judgment call. And it usually comes down to who are the other professionals involved. Right? Because at that point, while I have the court to protect me in the sense that even if I'm not required to get court approval for any particular action I may take as the administrator, I can always seek the court's approval.

17:24 And that process allows any interested party in essence to chime in on the action that I'm proposing to take. Having said that, I'm reliant on the other people involved the other I should say the other professionals involved to be reasonable. Because if every time I petition the court for approval on a particular action, it's going to become a long drawn-out process with multiple objections and etc. Etc., Personal attacks. And personal attacks. And personal attacks, right. You know, typically in court, Right. Then frankly, the fee that I will eventually earn, because I don't get paid, generally speaking, until the probate closes, which is in even in an in a regular case is 12 to 18 months. So, now if there's going to be multiple objections and all that, if you know, probate could even a small probate could extend for two, three, four years even. So then it's just it's not worth my time to be involved, number one. And number two, I frankly don't want to go in court and have people malign me, even if the even if what they're saying is untrue.

18:57 So, you know, the way court hearings work is typically there's a whole bunch of people waiting for their matter to be heard, listening to other cases. Right. And it doesn't do any it's not any good for my reputation to have people malign me, even if it seems apparent that what's being said is just malicious and untrue. So, I tend to pick those situations fairly carefully. And what I tell people is, "If you're asking me to be involved, I have to see how I'm going to add value to the contemplated process." So, maybe there are fiduciaries out there who will take any case that's offered to them. I will not. So, I had a case recently where was proposed to be the administrator, but then it turned out one of the heirs was a probate attorney. You know, and initially he was thinking he didn't want to administer it, but then he changed his mind and said he did. Right. Right. So, then at that point I'm not sure what value I would add. You're talking about a lawyer who practices in the field. Right. And if he wants to do it, I'm saying which of us would do a better job, but when it comes to competence, I you know, I don't know him. I presume he's competent. So, I don't I didn't And so, at that point I withdrew my petition for nomination and said, "Look, you know, you know, those are the done, yeah, and you know, let's all move on and let the process proceed without you know, ridiculous delays, etc." One of the things that surprises me is having been involved with fiduciaries and non-fiduciary cases, is in a probate case, the

21:00 Customer, the beneficiary or heir, is almost always disappointed the attorney because the attorney only does the legal work and doesn't do all the administrative work. And that distinction is not explained up front. And so, the heir I think has the reasonable expectation that everything's going to be done except for those things you don't tell me are going to be done that I have to do. Or when they're told what to do, it's overwhelming and they tune out and don't really hear that message the one time it's told. On the flip side, when there's fiduciary involved, somehow magically everyone assumes the fiduciary is going to do everything, even things that don't fall under the guise of fiduciary, and they're going to do it at their own expense and or their own time and effort without being able to charge if it's something that's extraordinary. So, talk a little bit about how do you work with both sides? And I imagine that there's professional through the attorney to set proper expectations of what you do, what you don't do, and what you're glad to do, but there's extra charges involved because there's extra work and extra risk and extra time. Right. So, specifically here in California, and I think this is this may be generally true in the other states and territories. So, the fee schedule for an administrator is set in the probate code. And that fee is earned for doing what might the routine duties of the state administration.

22:26 Now, that does not include legal fees, and in fact, the lawyer who actually doesn't represent the estate, the lawyer represents the administrator. So, there's essentially an identical fee schedule in the probate code for that lawyer. And it's supposed to be I look at it as a team approach. So, the lawyer is there to handle the legal side of administering the estate. So, I've mentioned a couple things already when it comes to the nomination. So, there's paperwork that has to be filed for me to be nominated. The lawyer handles that. If there's a particular if assuming I get appointed by the court, so then in exercising my authority in you know, doing my duties, so there are at least sometimes when I may want to get the court's approval before acting. So, a petition has to be filed. So, the lawyer will file that petition. Now, it may sound that sounds pretty simple, but filing a petition is not just making out the document and filing with the court. If only Notice has to be given to interested parties. Pardon me? If only that was the case, life would be a lot simpler. Right, exactly. If only, right?

23:50 So, there are all kinds of legal requirements, and the court has its own lawyers to review petitions, etc., to advise the judge on what may be missing. We call them probate notes. Right? So, you know, again, it's a probate administration is a team sport. So, on my cases, I check probate notes every business day. Right. And sometimes I see the probate notes before the lawyer does and I alert him to them. Sometimes he'll see them first, but then it's a matter of, you know, full court press, you know, get those notes addressed. From the standpoint of they're not really the client. I think this is somewhat of a misnomer. So, the heirs Recently we had an experience, right? Right. Right. The heirs to the estate are not my clients. The estate itself is my client. And in the estate, it's kind of like a corporation. We talk about a corporation as a legal person. It's a person created under the law as opposed to, you know, you and me, flesh and blood people. So, when a state is essentially it's a legal person. The estate is my client, and I administer the estate for the benefit of the beneficiaries, the heirs.

25:18 Having said that, the heirs have no authority to direct my activities at all. Not in not in law, not in anything. Now, it behooves me to keep them apprised of what I'm doing, to in at least some cases get their input because in the end, they are going to end up with whatever you know, money is left in the estate when the probate closes. But they do they do not have the ability or well, they don't have the authority to be directive of me. And that can sometimes lead to big problems. I was well, actually you were downstairs, but I had a situation I don't sometime last week or two where an heir was there when I was walking through a property and she started with the finger and you this and you that. And I had to explain to her what I just said. She didn't want to hear it, and I finally told her I told her lawyer was with her as well. I said, "You have to leave." You know, you just have to leave. This kind of hostility is inappropriate in this environment. Right? And now, she didn't like that. And the lawyer that was with her was an associate of the office that was representing her, and I fully expected to get major blowback from the lawyer who was actually representing her. And really to my surprise, I got an email from him the next day saying, "Hey, you know, thanks for your offer to include me in your weekly reports. I appreciate it. Please do. I know this is going to be a tough one. I don't envy, you know, what you're going to have to do."

27:14 Let's go deeper because I think that shows the benefit of teamwork, right? This is a case where property is not really unusual in the sense that it's not particularly expensive or particularly difficult to sell, pretty ordinary for the market, but the property is modified by incredible amount of personal property, which makes it a very you know, 35 or more cars and motorcycles and boats and just really a whole crazy that's just an example of the craziness of that property that makes it fun, but also challenging. And what was interesting, you mentioned the associate. My sense is he was newer, younger, not as experienced on the interpersonal side, maybe very smart legally, but a lot of these businesses and a lot of your businesses the person part. And I was there and I watched the I watched the fuse lit on that in that the heir was waiting for you to greet her like she is the customer. And then the reality is and I'm not here criticizing the attorney, but the proper format would have been for the attorney to introduce his client to you in a way to be more formal. And in the future, communication through the attorney, not the heirs. It's not appropriate when they're presented for you to contact the heir. And here she's upset because you did it, and you were like following the rules. And so, that just kind of that misunderstanding I think kind of grew and I'm sure there's hostility and personal drama and everything else that may excuse her behavior to some degree.

28:41 I saw that happening, and then I also reached out to the associate and the partner, not about that, just to say, "Hey, we're here to help, and I can help with anything." And I do think the thing that we do by offering by being proactive in the relationship with the parties is it diffuses the frustration, right? They don't think you're hiding from them. They don't think you're trying to run away. You're standing up saying, "Here's what I'm doing to the best of my ability to be transparent." And I think that's the difference you offer in these cases that make your service viable is being proactive and understanding there is some interpersonal relation in all this. Right. And oftentimes that really is the difficult part. So, there's no magic to looking at an estate and maybe there's, you know, eight heirs, you know, in the estate. There's one house. Okay? The house is going to have to be sold because we I need to be able to divide up the money. And you know, the idea of I don't know, negotiating with seven heirs to take a note against the house so that one of the other ones can keep and it's a non-starter, right? So, you know, those kinds of things are those are pretty well, relatively easily figured out.

30:02 And while it there may there you know, it's typically some kind of judgment call, okay, at what price do we list the property? Do we spend any money on the property to potentially enhance its value at sale? Okay, those are all judgment calls and I think I add value in those cases. But I think where I oftentimes have the most value is by keeping aware of the human interactions that are happening anytime a situation like the administration of a probate is going on. And we've got people grieving typically. We may have, you know, family jealousies coming forward that for years were tamped down for the sake of the person who now is deceased. And you know, every family trauma, every family you know, fight seems to get worked out during a probate. Or I mean it doesn't have to be a family. It could be business partners, whatever.

31:22 And you know, one of the things that I rely on is you know, prior to filling this role, I was a chaplain in the United States Navy for 16 years where that was a lot of what I dealt with was conflict, people dealing with in some cases just gut-wrenching emotional and physical and spiritual issues. And so I do my best to bring those skills to bear and remind people that you know, their objective may not be the same as the objective of somebody else who's involved with the situation. And it this is often times hard for people to hear, but just because it's their objective doesn't mean that the other person is wrong. All right? We're we all have a certain level of self-interest. And there needs to be some working out of it. I hesitate to use the word balancing because normally it's not a balancing proposition. It's just a working through.

32:45 And this is where the other professionals can be so important. So, whether there has to be kind of a good cop, bad cop thing going on or whether I need to be able to call that professional and basically say, hey, you know, I need your assistance in you handling your client. Right. Here's why I assess it to be for the good of the estate and why I think, you know, your client needs to back off or get in line or whatever it is I'm seeking. Right. I can make that case to the professional often times because they're less likely to be emotionally involved. And I'm more likely to get I'm more likely to be able to make progress. And so, you know, people ask me, what is my role in all of this? And my official role, you know, is the court-appointed I'm the quarterback, you know, on the football team. And I'm I need to get all my players together in a huddle. And me but my players typically are the professionals. Meantime, the fans are out there, in some cases screaming for blood because they don't see happening what they want to happen. Right. And we take in what the fans are screaming at us, but we also we can't necessarily let it affect how we're doing the work because in the end, we still need to win the game.

34:24 So. One of the real pleasures of my career the last few years has been able to work in some larger estates. I remember I got a phone call from a man who I didn't realize you and he were also I guess some friendly or friends or you know, more than acquaintances. And it was attorney and a very experienced I would think more civil litigator attorney than I would call a probate attorney. Though he did some probate work. And he called me and said, I know that you have, you know, big Rolodex in the probate world. Do you know a professional licensed fiduciary who's experienced with commercial property? And I said, well, yeah. I know a guy who was in a commercial appraiser, not residential but commercial specifically and managed commercial property management company and the licensed fiduciary. And as result, we've had the pleasure, honor, the task of working on a fairly large estate with numerous properties. I want to say around 20 or so at one point. Properties owned by the estate, properties managed for the estate in their commercial business, operating the business, a commercial property management company, stocks, bonds, securities, all kinds of attorneys, accountants, legal issues, the ex-wife with the crazy with the with all the craziness that comes in normally with that. Negotiating some real estate transaction I had wasn't familiar with but we got it done.

35:53 Selling properties in probate, selling properties outside of probate. And you managed all that and I think that I don't believe your resume would have lined up for that job. But if I was interviewing to hire somebody for that meaning it wasn't a past experience. But if I was hiring somebody to run a $40 million business approximately what that was, you had the qualifications, not the experience on the job of all of it, but you had the experience and qualifications to step into that role. And I think that's probably more likely what it looks like on large estates. Meaning nobody's probably going to have all of the skill set, but really it's more about the characteristics and the abilities and the knowledge and the Rolodex and the ability to learn and think about things. How do you approach taking on a you know, a task that size that like I said, you didn't have that exact job previously. But you done all the pieces of the puzzle. And just to add to the story, turns out a property we're looking to purchase for the estate involved some very sophisticated issues of timber well beyond my pay grade as a commercial broker. Turns out you value timber as appraiser. Who would have known that, you know, looking at your resume? Well, that's what happens when you have a broad area of activity. So, talk a little bit about you what you look at when you're when you're presented with the opportunity to work on a large estate that is even more complicated and diverse and then what allows you to make the decision to move forward with it?

37:19 So, I mean the estate that you're talking about specifically you know, one of the other coincidences is the sole heir is a military veteran as am I. So, you know,

37:32 Proud military veteran. Proud military veteran and He was he's Army. He was he's a he's a graduate of the military academy at West Point as a matter of fact. So yeah, so we're you know, we're talking, you know, you know, top notch. And so, you know, it just as these things sometimes work out, we kind of speak the same language. You know, like when I say to him, you know, we're working to get into a battle rhythm, Yes. He intuitively knows what it is I'm seeking to do, right? So,

38:08 He perked up his attention when you said that for sure. I watched that actually on a Zoom call we were in and he and you say that and he like he gets it right away what we're talking about. Exactly. Exactly. And it I mean, it's nice to be able to speak in those kind of shortcut terms, right? Because

38:25 Otherwise you get into these long, you know, explanations. So, I mean, when it comes so I mean, I think I've been very fortunate in my professional life. I started out as you know, before I joined the Navy, I had a commercial real estate company which you mentioned. But even with that company, I got to do a very broad range of assignments. So, you mentioned, you know, being involved with lumber mills and so, you know, learning that kind of business, that was one thing. I learned a lot of aspects about the casino business, for example. Like, you know, when they say what stays in Vegas what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, that's not actually true. What happens in Vegas is recorded on, you know, video media and the security people laugh at certain segments from time to time because that's how they amuse themselves, you know? That's the Las Vegas that I know from being rear of house in a number of the casinos that I either did appraisals or consultations or whatever. So, I think I have a somewhat eclectic background. I also for half a century was involved in small entertainment and media projects. So, I know a lot about how that business works, how and before that, I worked for an attorney whose associate handled intellectual property.

39:55 So, there's you know, I don't want to sound, you know, conceited, but there's probably not an asset class that I haven't had some kind of involvement with. That doesn't I'm not saying I'm an expert in these things. So, let's say that a major estate came along where a lot of the value of the assets was tied up in intellectual property. Okay, so I mean, I understand the basics of IP, but I'm not qualified to do evaluation. And but having the background in it gives me the ability to find the people who can do the valuation work, who can do I know this word is loaded, but who can help create a plan for exploiting the IP and seeing to it that the estate and afterwards the heirs get full value out of that particular asset or those particular assets. So, maybe it's a music catalog, right? So, over the last, you know, 20 plus years, the value of music catalogs have soared.

41:14 A lot of it has to do with music streaming and what, you know, streaming companies, Spotify, Pandora, etc. Will pay in terms of fees for the rights to stream songs from a catalog. So again, I understand the basics of that business. I wouldn't I wouldn't do the rights management of Well, I mean, let me let me back off of that. If it's a major catalog, it wouldn't make sense for me to do the rights management of something like that because so much of that is having the experience and knowledge and the being able to make the judgment calls as to what is the most lucrative deal that could be made. But, I can talk enough of the language competently that I could interact with you know, Warner Music or you know, if we're talking about a huge company or you know, a smaller rights management company and make sure that the estate was getting proper value for, you know, for its IP, whether it's a sale, whether it's again you know, an agreement to exploit the IP on some kind of licensing basis, whatever. So, I think for me, that's the key. Now, maybe there is an estate out there with some kind of property that I've never dealt with before. It's certainly possible.

42:45 And in that case, I would have to I think take a step back and say, "Okay, is this similar enough to anything I've ever dealt with before that I could competently administrate this estate and more specifically this asset?" And you know, then I'd have to I you know, I'd have to make that call. Certainly and I'll I think partly because I come out of an appraisal background. So, there's a standard in real estate appraisal that if one lacks competence for appraising a particular type of property, a disclosure needs to be made to the prospective client prior to accepting the engagement. And so, I look at my role as a fiduciary in a similar way. So, if I'm being presented with an estate and there are aspects of it that I feel I may not be either the most competent or particularly competent to handle. So, then I'm going to have a discussion with the relevant people and say, "Here's where I think I could add value. Here's where I think I you know, I may have some difficulties.

44:01 And then either I recommend you get somebody else. I may refer them to somebody. I did that a while back for an estate that was in Illinois where I'm not familiar with the law. Or I might say, you know, with these caveats, I think I can still properly handle this estate. And so, you know, if that's you know, if you're good with my disclosures, then we can proceed. So, I mean, I again, these are these are judgment calls. I think at this point in my career and you know, I don't think anybody would mistake that we're young men anymore, right?

44:47 For sure. Yeah, I don't think me either, so I think that we've seen so much that again, it's not that we've seen everything and know everything. It's just we're, you know, we're able to figure things out. And so, you know, at that point, I have to make the judgment call if they decide to proceed with me and I get appointed. So, now I have to move smartly forward as we used to say in the military, but with humility. So, I have to rely on the other members of my team to make sure that I'm making good decisions. So, even if it's something as relatively common as dealing with the tax returns that an estate has to file. I mean, there's lots of estates where that gets done, but I'm still going to rely on the accountant that I bring in who specializes in estate taxation because he has much greater domain knowledge than I have. And so, what I'm bringing to the table is making sure that the domain knowledge that accountant has is appropriate for the size of the estate.

46:11 And same with the lawyers, etc. Yeah, I think if I could cuz some ways I think I would say that you your job is in some cases not to be the expert, but to be able to administer and work with the expert to the benefit of the estate. And that brings us back to like the example of the timber. Nobody's asking you to make an appraisal or nobody's asking you to assess the rights of the land as relates to the timber, but presented with some facts, you were able to ask some questions that we can then you know, if appropriate, solicit an expert as the estate. And you know, you can work with them. I mean, I was looking at some of the questions and things. I follow most of it, but I don't have anywhere near the expertise where I'd have to say, "Hey, this is way out of my league." Versus in your case, you know, to be able to converse with the attorney and ask the right questions that the attorney has to then present, you know, to make the case move it forward. So, I think that's the that's probably My guess is if somebody came to you and the estate included owning the San Diego Dodgers or Lakers, you don't have the expertise to sell either asset yourself, but my guess is your Rolodex includes the best guy or two or gal to represent that sale and you would then interact with them in a way that effectuate things for your estate. Right. And even where my Rolodex doesn't currently So, this is one of my favorite examples of a situation In this case, I was involved with an estate as an appraiser. And the lawyer who brought me in, we he and I had worked together many times before.

47:43 I don't know if I Well, I think probably I think this is years ago. So, the estate was Greg Garrison. For those people of our vintage, that name may ring familiar to them because Greg Garrison produced, among other things, Dean Martin's television shows. Oh, wow. So, Mr. Garrison had a ranch out in kind of the West San Fernando Valley or actually in Hidden Ranch. And I was brought in to do an appraisal of the ranch. Beautiful property. Just beautiful property. So, I'm working on the report and the lawyer calls me up and he says, "Hey, by the way, I think you know, the ranch has, I forget how many it was. I think a dozen of this one particular kind of horse." And he said, "I need somebody who can appraise these horses." He said, "Can you do it?" I said, "Well, I can't, but you know what? I'm in, you know, the field. Let me make some inquiries and I'll find out who can." So, I immediately called my younger sister who was much more involved with horses than I was at the time. And she said, "Oh, I know one of the top horse appraisers in the country." She gave me his name. He was on the East Coast. I called the guy up.

49:06 And he said and I said, "I need to have some horses appraised of this particular breed." The guy says to me, "Oh, you're talking about Garrison's horses." I like, "How did you know that?" He says, "Because I know that Greg died not long ago and I assume his estate is going through probate or whatever and you know, that's that." And I said, "Oh, well, great. I said, can you appraise the horses?" He said, "No, there's only one person in the country who can appraise those horses accurately." So, I'm like, "Oh, this is perfect. Like, only one person, right? My work is done, right?" So, "What's the person's name?" It was Mr. Garrison's daughter. Ouch. That's not going to work. So, I called the lawyer up. I Well, so then I said, "Well, I First I said to the guy, I said, "I'm not sure that'll work. She's the heir. I don't think the IRS is going to buy this." Yeah. And I And he said, "Well, here's what I can tell you. The IRS is not going to find anybody in the horse appraisal business who will challenge her valuation of those horses." They're not They won't. So, I called the lawyer and I told him what I had found out. And he said, "We'll go with her." Wow.

50:34 So, that's what we did. And to the best of my knowledge, the IRS signed off on it. Now, I think he may have followed up with the other horse appraiser and he had included, you know, that statement like, "She's the only one who knows how to value these horses." So, you know, I mean, we tend to think of the IRS as being unreasonable all the time. And I look, I'm not here to advocate on the part of the of the IRS. But, what I will say is when I've dealt with the IRS on estate matters, if I've got the data, Right. I'm probably going to win. Right? Because in the end, you know, the It's a small part of the IRS. And at least again, with the people with whom I dealt, they're really just looking to make sure that everything has been handled properly. And if I can prove to them that it has, so I once I appraised some properties for an estate. Again, this is going back years ago. And the IRS challenged my appraised values because the assessed value of a property here in California was higher.

51:57 And the client showed me, you know, the IRS letter. And I said, "Well, that's ridiculous. Assessed value in California has no relation to market value except in the year that a property sells and is reassessed." So, he said, "Oh." He says, "Well, what do you suggest we do?" I said, "I'll write a letter for your accountant or lawyer to send to the IRS explaining why what they're saying makes no sense. And let's start there. That's the most efficient, least expensive way to handle it." So, I put the letter together, a couple of pages, whatever it was. It was submitted to the IRS and few weeks later, the IRS signed off on my appraised values. So, you know, good for them. Well, at the end of the day, it is what it is. If there's certain facts and that's the only conclusion, then there's certain facts and that's the only conclusion. And your job, obviously, was to provide them. So, look, I know I just I'm a little sensitive here cuz I kept you way over the time we promised. I really appreciate There's just so much to cover. You know, fiduciary roles go from one piece of property to very complicated estates and your activities are also very diversified. So, I really appreciate you taking the time today. For those who are interested in getting together with Kevin to talk about fiduciary work, whether you're an attorney or estate, bemel.com is the website. And he has a whole series of divisions of things he does and trust administration, estate administration, different kinds of trusts and such. And then other businesses he's also involved with through his Hibou Advisors program as well as his Snappy Patter Media. And he has his own podcast and definitely want to take a look. And I'll just point real quick, the WAY to WOW Shows is the YouTube channel that has that information as well. And I have on the screen below his contact information.

53:49 But for some reason you're listening on the audio or can't get that in time, reach out to me. I'd be more glad I know where Kevin is pretty much every day. It turns out we've got enough cases now coming going where either I owe him a phone call or he's waiting for me to get back to him on something. So, feel free to reach out if I can help you. Kevin, thank you so much for taking the time today to really teach us about fiduciaries, the wide range of work you do in administration. Really appreciate your time today. Yeah, my pleasure. Anytime. Happy to do it. And for the rest of you, this is Probate Weekly. We get together every week with a new episode, most commonly with probate attorneys, litigators, but also vendors that help us do our job better. And fiduciaries is another area of business for those of us Realtors® looking to develop relationships as well as bring service to our customers and attorneys. If I can help in any way, please reach out at Bill Gross Probate on social media. As always, make today your best day ever. Thank you so much.