Protecting Families and Businesses in Michigan, with Attorney Casey Conklin

0:01 Sometimes in probate real estate can be very narrow focus, other times it's more holistic looking at the client in a more broad sense. We're excited to have today Casey Conklin who is a family law attorney, probate attorney in the state of Michigan and as well as a Spartan. I guess a very proud Spartan if you're wearing it on a Zoom call. Casey, thank you for joining us today. Yeah, thanks for having me, Bill. So, obviously a lot of attorneys in the state of Michigan, and I know several. How would you describe yourself as being different than the others as to why somebody should consider your firm for protecting their family assets? Yeah, so one of the big things is the protecting assets, the estate planning, and the business planning, that's all I do. Right, I have a very narrow focus on my area of practice. You know, I tell a lot of people you can go get an estate plan from I would say 90% of the attorneys out there. But, most of them are just doing it to pay some bills. They're not the ones that are studying it week in week out or listening to podcasts such as yours to get all this new information to be able to plan best for their clients. They're going to, you know, do the cookie-cutter models. So, I like to focus more on counseling the clients both my businesses and my estate planning clients for several hours before we even get any paperwork drawn up.

1:26 So, and that's an important distinction is there's a human being involved versus you know, a website or AI or whatever you want to call the robot side of it. So, talk about when you do the counseling with people, what are some of the key things you're looking for that a customer doing do-it-yourself do-it-yourself program may not find or going through one of those online services may not find, but by you having the experience and instinct will dig a little deeper and uncover as an area to protect? Yeah, so when you're talking about, you know, the online do-it-yourself stuff or, you know, now people using AI for this stuff, you say someone's going to go into that and say I need a will. And it's going to spit out a will with your name on the top. Somebody comes to me and says I need a will. I say, "Okay, why do you think you need a will?" And then we get into those specifics and I can tell you that I don't know, a super majority of the time people need more than a will. But they don't realize that because they know from you know, just culture that they think they need a will. So, that's where that counseling comes in. And when I sit with them, that's what I try to figure out is what their goals are. And then what we can do to help accomplish those goals.

2:44 Yeah, you know, and I've learned to ask that same question. People will say to me cuz I know attorneys around California, around the country. I need an attorney. And now I always ask the question, "Why do you think you need an attorney?" or what do you need an attorney to do? Really is the question I'm trying to ask. With a will

3:00 The question the answer I get often in California is, "I need a will to avoid probate." I say, "No, it doesn't work that way." Right. If you have a will, you're going to march into probate court with your will. If you don't have a will, you're going to march into probate court without a will. Either way, you're going to probate court. Now, you practice, I think, exclusively in Michigan. Yeah, so I'm only licensed in Michigan, but I am licensed in the US tax court. So, if I'm doing tax law, I can practice nationwide. But, in Michigan, if you have a will you still go through probate court, don't you? Yeah, in fact, I have a saying We have a saying around my office is if there's a will, there is probate. There's no way around it.

3:39 Yeah, I mean, it might be if you have a will and you have an estate plan as part of the estate plan that's going to avoid probate, at least in California. Though, in reality it never guarantees avoiding probate in California cuz you're going to get sued for something if there's enough money involved. I imagine there's some of that true in Michigan, but generally having a proper plan, you would avoid the probate confirmation process. Yeah, so when I'm doing probate avoidance, and that's one of the key things people come to me just like you said, they'll come and they say, "I need a will." "Why do you want a will?" "Cuz I want to avoid probate." Okay, that's not the way to do it. We need a trust. But in Michigan, it's that same way. We do if you have a proper plan in place, and I tell I like to tell my clients, the only way to avoid probate is to make sure you don't own anything when you die. If you don't own anything, there's nothing to probate. So when we do those full estate plans like that, we put in there a pour-over will. And I always get the question, "Why do I need a will? You told me I don't want a will." I say, "Well, we need this pour-over will just in case. It's the CYA document." Because like you said, there may be a lawsuit involved at some point. If you're looking at $30 million, people are going to try to get their hands on that. If you're you know, your death was caused cuz you were hit by a drunk driver, your family's going to want to sue that drunk driver.

5:00 And so, we're going to need to go to probate court for those reasons anyways, but we still get to keep everything pre-lawsuit outside of the court. And I think that's a big distinction that a lot of people don't understand. When everything goes into the court that's everything. That's all public record. Anybody can go on the court records and look and see what you have and who's getting it. It's interesting cuz as a real estate agent, I often get asked questions about a property I'm selling or

5:29 Some situation. And I know that probate court is public, yet many consumers don't understand that it's available. But, I think to the consumer, it still feels like everything is being run out in the open for everybody to see all the arguments, all the pain, all the relationships, the craziness. Even though it might be in filings and papers back and forth, the feeling to the customer is it's very it's very public. Yeah, and most people don't do it, but the people who do it are either doing it for legal purposes or doing it for scamming purposes. But, you can go on to any court and pull the records of any case and get everything. So, if it's a probate case, unless there's minors involved you know, your family's names, your kids' names, potentially their addresses are all published in that public record. And then it'll say, "Okay, well, my daughter just inherited a $300,000 house." And that's all within the probate documents that anybody can just go look at and print it off. Now, do you do estate administration? I mean, we have a client who does a plan and then they pass away and

6:37 The assets go into whatever plan you put it into. Do you help the family when they require it to administer that plan? Yeah, so we do estate administration. We'll do some probate administration as well. I don't do any probate litigation cuz I don't like to wear ties. So

6:59 So, we'll do the stuff that doesn't involve court, but estate administration you know, usually if it's previous clients of mine, that'll be trust administration. And yeah, through administering that trust, we basically just have to follow the rules that we put in place when we designed the trust. Now, California, we have I think it's unique. Tell me if it's true in Michigan as well. I don't think so. Where if somebody creates an estate plan and left out an asset, let's say in my case a piece of property that they never deeded into the estate plan. They have a pour-over will. And that may or may not suffice, but if there's other proof of their intent for sure, like it was listed in the estate plan, but they never did the document or they the attorney prepared a grant deed, the customer never executed the deed or never recorded the deed. More importantly we have a process called the Heggstad petition where it the court kind of waves a magic wand and says, "Oh, really, that's part of the estate plan." In Michigan, if you don't fund a item in the estate plan, can it be transferred upon death or after death, I mean? Yeah, so it's almost the same thing. So, first there would be the pour-over will. That's supposed to be the catch-all. But if for whatever reason the pour-over will fails, like it wasn't signed properly or whatever it might be the courts are allowed to look at intent.

8:25 And then they can do it from there. So, the court could say, "Well, clearly it was their intent to put this house in the into the trust, so that's what we're going to do." The downside is you still have to go through probate to do that. Right. So, you have an estate plan which would have avoided probate but for this property, and now you have to go through the process. All right. In the California, they say, "Well, it's just a Heggstad petition." Yeah, but it's a petition and an attorney, and it's 6 months to get your hearing date, and notices, and it still costs about as much as the probate. So, it's still kind of So, is that similar in Michigan as well? Yeah, so even if you're just doing a probate for one piece of property through a pour-over will you're yeah, you're still looking at 6 months would be quick. And several thousand dollars to get through it. Got it. Is there a particular process that's called? Is there a particular case that's named after or procedure that it's called with you? No, [sighs] not that I'm aware of anyway. There might be, but it's just a you know, we just usually would go with the unsupervised probate petition. That way we don't have to go into court, and the court signs off on the pour-over will, and we move it over from there. What kind of evidence would be sufficient to get that? What evidence would not be? Meaning, I've seen cases where you know, the they went to the attorney, they prepared the deed the customer never executed the deed and never recorded it. And the and the judgment at the end was you know, if they wanted to put it in the trust, they could have, and they just didn't want to.

9:53 Versus others, there's more there's correspondence, and there's several drafts, and it's obvious all along we're trying to exhibit. What are the What's the evidence that would be sufficient and what kind of examples would there be not sufficient evidence? Yeah, so it's really just a weighted measure, right? Is there more to suggest that it was the intent or more of to suggest that it wasn't? Communication is key and nowadays with emails we have a lot more communication than they used to back before email was so prevalent. So we'd be able to show those emails. Yes, I want this property in the trust. You know, I'd email the client, "Hey, I need your deed so we can move this property to the trust. Okay, here's a copy of my deed." You know, that would work to show their intent. If you don't have stuff like that and you know, you just left it at

10:41 Hey, make sure you move all the assets you want in the trust to the trust and then that was the end of the conversations. It's probably going to fail because there was no intent. But if you have those you know, you need to move this over. Okay, I'll move it over and then you email or text message or whatever it might be. That would be enough. I know some attorneys have the customer you know, execute and record the deed on the road. Some attorneys get them to execute it and they tell them to record it. Some actually get them to execute it and get it recorded. Obviously there's more time the more involvement there's expense of some sort more time involved. You got to get paid for it. Where do you fall out in that process with the customer? Yeah, so with real property that's built into my plan because that's the one asset that I tell everybody you need to make sure this gets moved into your trust. Right. The best way for me to make sure is if my office does it. So I have them give me a copy of their current deed and then when we sign the estate planning documents I have them sign a new deed right there. Then my office mails it in for them gets it registered. So it would take takes about a day. And to me as a real estate agent I feel comfortable referring attorneys to take that approach because you're responsible for the result for the customer not just billing them in the activity, right? I've I'm on a case now with an estate you know, with $40 million and the guy had one of the world's greatest state plans. He just never signed it. He never signed the deeds cuz he was too busy Yeah. To deal with all that. Well, guess what? Yeah, he's gone and we're all busy helping him get that done. So that's not that's not good. So you do the preparation of the deed and you follow up on sending out for the recording of the deed. That's I think fantastic.

12:21 Obviously you get estate plans done by other people and they come into you with this problem. You can't go back in time and change that but that's going that's great going forward. How about bank accounts, securities, you know, maybe insurance has a designated beneficiary? How do you cover that with the client so they know what's going to happen and or do you get involved in correcting any of that? So with me I give them a playbook essentially. So within the trust or the estate planning binder that I give them there's a whole section titled funding and it lists various accounts and how to get them you know, there's a paragraph or two about how to get it funded. And then I have a document that they sign at the end of it that says, "Yes, I understand Casey told me I need to get this stuff done, right?" and then I tell people you know, once you're my client you're my client. So if you have any issues with this funding it's all built into what you already paid me for the estate plan. So if the bank's going to give you a hard time, have them call my office or you know, if the title company I get issues with title companies a lot. They don't trust certificates of trust for whatever reason. Sure. You know, if anybody's giving you a issues on that have them call the office and we'll talk them through it.

13:39 One of the things that changed My father was an attorney and in his firm one of his partners was the wills and trusts attorney. And I remember those days there was it was all wills. I mean, I'm old and my father was older obviously. It was almost all wills and they had in their office like a huge safe room fireproof and they stored all the wills and that was kind of part of the you know, the old country style attorney you know, had the documents and the family kind of turned to them. And I know that you know, with trusts now it's different. Some attorneys recommend the customer not have the attorney keep a copy because there might be multiple copies, might be changes to copies. Some like to keep a copy. Now with electronics there's multiple ways to deal with that as well. How do you advise your clients on the storage of the documents as well? So I do two things. First I tell the client I give the client everything all the originals. They get a big fancy binder and I tell them to go home put it in a fire and waterproof box and thanks to an insurance agent friend of mine I tell them to not store that box on the floor cuz apparently they're not always waterproof. But put it in a fireproof and waterproof box and make sure that your successor trustee knows where it is and how to open it.

14:58 So that's step one. The other thing is I actually have all my clients sign a second set of documents. So we have two copies of the originals and then I keep originals in my office as well. Actual hard copy originals. Actual hard copy originals, yep. Wow, okay. I mean, I think it's a higher standard obviously than electronic. Now, I'm curious I know there are different solutions that some attorneys talk about and present. What's the advantage of for you as the practitioner and for the customer of keeping a second hard copy versus digitizing it? Yeah, so

15:34 My main reason for doing that is because I know not all of my clients are going to go buy a safe and put their estate plan in it. Oh, imagine that. They're not going to follow your instructions. Right.

15:45 So I keep a second set of hard copies so that if something happens to those then we still have an original at you know, in my office. And I just yeah, it's just there as a backup because I've had several times where families come to me and they're like, "I don't think you know, dad had a trust or anything." And I'm like, "I'm pretty sure he did cuz I've got the documents right here." Right. Right. Yeah, I think I think that's a great service to offer and I know some people have a whole drama with it where they I have a attorney friend of mine in Texas where he has a he bought like an old bank building with a walk-in vault. He walks the customers in and they do the signing there and it's very dramatic and you know, nothing wrong with some excitement in your business. But at the end of the day I think having a copy and a backup and taking responsibility. When attorneys tell me they don't want to keep a copy because blah I'm kind of like, but you haven't solved your customer's problem, right? The goal is to solve the customer's problem not to avoid your own problems. So Well, and that kind of gets back to like the way that I kind of introduce myself to my clients when you know, if you've been on my website I say personal family lawyer and I don't mean family lawyer like I do divorces cuz I would I would never be caught doing divorce. But I want to be your family's lawyer and that's and that's part of it.

17:09 I feel those attorneys that say, "Okay, here's your documents. Now I'm done with you." they just see it more as a one and done transaction whereas I want those people to come back. Hey, I bought a new house. I had a new grandbaby. Better go tell Casey cuz we probably need to update the estate plan. Yeah, and I think that's the difference between when you focus on solving customer's problems versus just getting paid. I think in the long run that builds a business but it takes a little more work up front but over time you have the equity of those relationships which is really valuable. Right. And then you know, the plan is for that to be generational as well. You know, I get to know their kids because they become the trustees of their estates and so on and so forth. So how do you I mean, I'm not sure where you are in your business development phase but I know one of the biggest challenges and there's two I think. One is getting customers who should have estate plans done to get started. And the second one is to get them to finish, right? It's like everything with customers. We can give them great advice and we can be very valuable in that regard but unless they execute it isn't worth much. What do you do if anything to help encourage you know, your clients who are maybe now the second generation who should also get in line and get their documents put together. Maybe they have kids now that your client would want you know, look at their grandkids want to see provided for. How do you kind of encourage that process or does it just happen and you kind of sit there and hold your breath hoping it works out? So it's a lot of education and that education is not only at level one, it's you know, I'll tell my clients, "Your children should really have this type of plan in place too because what you're doing for them, they should do for their kids." And then kind of encourage that education. So sit down with them and say, "This is why I did I did an estate plan. This is why I have a trust." so that education part of it cuz that's a big part of it is people don't know what they don't know and estate planning is one of the ones where people really don't know a lot about it. You know, I

19:11 Every week in my networking group people they tell me that I just come and tell scary stories. I go yeah. That's probably true but that's cuz we see when things go wrong and that's my job to pre prevent those. And so if we can prevent those issues multiple generations then be better for everybody. It's never a problem until it's a problem and then it's a problem. Yeah. Yeah. One of the challenges I'm sure you face is there's always a cheaper solution. Same with me as a real estate agent, right? There's always a cheaper who'll do it for less. At some point you educate customers and they enough choose in based on the value proposition that you're presenting in some cases some attorneys kind of struggle with that. How do you kind of approach that when you must have the discussion with every client? You know, obviously it's an easy discussion when they're referred by their parents or by friends or neighbors. How do you have that discussion and where do you follow up on that? Yeah, so you know, there's especially when you're doing dealing with stuff like LegalZoom and those self-help sites and you know, they do it for you can get a trust-based estate plan for I don't know, a quarter of what I charge.

20:30 When I have those conversations when you know, I try to make sure that the value is there. Say, well you're not going to sit down with somebody for an hour and a half like we just did when you go through LegalZoom. Now you might take the information I gave you and go do LegalZoom, but I guess that's your prerogative, but so I set up those first so the first two meetings I have before I design an actual plan for people is all education. So the first one we just kind of do like a 30,000 foot view and then the next one we narrow down and talk about the nitty-gritty, all the details, you know, what who's getting what, where everything's going, how much you have, all that. And my goal through those two meetings, I don't I don't charge anything for either of those meetings.

21:20 You know, I mean I'm two and a half, three hours in before we even talk about price. Wow. My goal with those with that time is to build that trust. This is why you're paying me more than LegalZoom because I'm going to be here for the rest of your life and you can trust me with any questions or issues you have as the years go on. You know, it's funny you say that cuz I when I started in probate real estate as a real estate agent and market and stuff, I really looked for you know, referral sources, attorneys, obviously fiduciaries and there were services, let's say the second, third tier below LegalZoom and then I got involved with the second tier. And what I found was the kind of customers who they attract who can do everything on their own just weren't even good customers for me. They weren't coachable because they knew they could they knew everything I knew cuz they went online and they read it on the website. And it's like, well then you don't need me. Good luck. And I think that's one of those things where it kind of sucks people out. I'm glad there are those self-help real estate systems because those customers need to sell house, too, and they deserve to get represented. I'm just not the right fit for them. I imagine the same situation with you with your business. At some point anybody who thinks they know as much as you do is you know welcome to take those other alternatives, but I can say as an agent I see they get the you get what you pay for or less, actually. I think the problem is if you don't get the estate plan done, you've really just wasted a lot of time and money, I think.

22:50 Yeah, and I see that a lot, too. The ones that come in and they a lot of the ones that say, "I just need a will." I'm like, "Well, have you ever thought about a trust?" "Yeah, I don't want a trust." I'm like, "Okay." "Why do you think you need a will?" "Because of this and that and this." I don't really think you want a will. I think you want a trust. And you know, if they're going to continue to argue with me, I'm going to say, "You know I don't I don't think this is a good fit. Feel free to move on your own." so I do get those occasionally where they come in and think they know everything and they don't think they need to pay me thousands of dollars to do a form and that's fine. They could be right. Right. You know but I tell I tell other people that I just charge more when you come back and I have to fix things for you. Well, that's part of it. I imagine you get those cases where people do went around and so they got messed up and then that becomes or maybe cases like you said you don't want to do deep litigation, so you're going to have to refer them to a litigator. And that's very expensive. I don't think people ever understand the cost of that is I've never had any customer say, "Wow, that litigation was good for me." No. Cheap and fast are never two things that go with litigation. No. You know, one thing that strikes me, I'm just kind of curious to throw a question out. I don't think we're asked this of an attorney, but I know that when I do you know, coaching calls now and team calls where I'm you know, part of the administrative team or I run a brokerage we record them now and use AI to summarize that. I would imagine that there's opportunities. Now there's privacy issues and security and all that. Are you using anything like an AI when you have these several multiple hour coaching calls to or consulting calls? Are you using AI at all to help summarize that or is that something that just doesn't quite fit yet into your business? Not at this point.

24:35 I will use AI like for instance to like a follow-up email after the first email at where I'm saying, "Hey, these are the next steps." I'll use it to kind of you know, clean up those types of things, but I'm not at least at this point using it to you know, do those things for me. Yeah, the problem is if you rely you know, it is very powerful and yet deceptive. I know for me, I've you know, I keep getting real estate offer contracts and looking for a tool to scan it and then give me a list of key points and it always gets like nine out of 11 right and it just misses one or two points. But if it missed that one or two point, I have a problem. You know, I have a license problem. I have a Yeah.

25:21 Potential lawsuit problem and so I imagine the same is for you that if you if you rely on it, you're going to miss something. You have to have your notes I would think to really rely on. Obviously I'm a real estate broker as my focus and a lot of the people on my podcast are real estate agents. I'm sure you must get a probate business coming to you from real estate agents. If not, hopefully referrals for estate planning from real estate agents. Talk a little bit about your relationship with real estate agents and where you think they could be more effective in serving their customers. Yeah, so I get a decent amount from referrals from real estate agents and mortgage brokers. And that relationship started as kind of you know, just me educating them. And I actually my office is in a real estate office. I'm in a Keller Williams office. Wow. And so you know, we'll work together and I try to get them to understand you know, when somebody buys a house, especially if it's a first-time home buyer they don't have any idea about estate plans and trusts and usually and why they need one now that they own a house cuz I'll be the first to tell you if you don't own a house, then we'll start talking about maybe just a will or you know, something with a little less probate avoidance in it.

26:41 But when people buy those houses, you know, that's when we need to start talking. So I like to talk to them about, "Hey, when you have a customer purchase a house, you know, ask them if they've ever thought about putting it into a trust." And if they say no, send them to me. If they say yes, send them to me. You know, I use that in a little different way. I present it as a key business generation tool for real estate agents that's free and I think of real value. Meaning everybody we talk to who's shopping for a house we should at least ask the question, "How do you plan to hold title?" We're going to need to know it when we write the document out. But if their plan is, "Well, we don't have a trust. We're buying as Bob and Mary." Have you considered the advantages either before you buy the house, ideally, or afterwards of an estate plan? And then every body we talk to about selling typically we pull the deed before we go there. We know how they hold title. Right.

27:35 They may not know it. They may have gone to the estate planner and got the binder, never executed it. And we know that's the problem. What a great way to start the relationship to point out why you should work with me cuz A, I checked the title and B, I have a great attorney that can fix this problem for you. This is what you need to get done. And so if you're a real estate agent, I would think that would be a great opportunity to help coach them up on lead generation for their business that would result in the kind of business you want to go to. So feel free to pass on any of your agents to me. I'll be more I have a YouTube video on free how to just serving your customer. Just ask them the question like you said. But we should be asking everybody we talk to, I think. Yeah, for sure. And that's you know, when I moved in to Deb's office, I first thing I did was, "Hey, can I put these benefits of living trust brochures right here next to where you do all your closings?" So Why would you not? Yeah. Yep.

28:28 Would you not do that? And you know, it's probably a little too late. You should be at the front desk before before they get to the closing table cuz at the closing table it's probably a little a little late. It's a different phone call I would think. So oh, I had a question I wanted to ask. Oh, yeah, real estate. So in Michigan what in California we're obviously a very regulated state. I don't think it's a surprise to anybody. When we list a property, we have a separate probate listing addendum as well as a probate advisory. And then we go into escrow, we have a probate purchase addendum separate with the same advisory but an advisory for every tran every probate transaction. I don't believe any other state has a standardized association Realtor® forms like that. Do you advise agents when they either sell property or make offers on property any specific form or addendums that you recommend they have in their in their contracts protect the customers or to protect the brokerage? No, not particularly. You know, much like most states I would imagine, Michigan's a lot of form-based when it comes to those in their state provided forms. I do work occasionally with them on their contracts when they hire them to be the listing agent or whatever it [snorts] might be.

29:47 You know, max liability protection for my client, the real estate agent. You know, no guarantees and all that stuff. But when it comes to forms, no, they're it's all state-based forms for the most part. Is there anything you would recommend to us a state song of property that they should put in their listings or put in the MLS or put in their contracts that give them extra protection or do you think it's not necessary? I don't that's probably not necessary. I mean, there's a lot of protections already in place. You know, the issues I see a lot when there's real estate transaction, especially after there's been a death and, you know, the house is being sold from the trust, is just clear title. And so we need to get certificates of trust and proof of trusteeship and all that stuff going before you can even list the house and you know, that's one thing that I've seen where they're like, "Hey, we've got a buyer. We need to the title company needs to talk to you. When's closing? Tomorrow." Okay. Well, good luck with that. Yeah. Yeah, definitely the time to get all this stuff is ahead of time if possible. And you know, again, I think cuz California is more litigious state, you know, we have more rules, regulations, and but I do think protections I have to say I do feel like our just not that really affects you, but for those watching, the California Association California Association of Realtors® forms on the probate are really worth reading and I do think do a good job protecting me as the agent and protecting my customers. And I think it's important to you know, they only works if you read the form and know what it how to how to use it. So, kind of my shout out for that. And then lastly, I'm sure you must work with a Like you say, you have Realtors® who refer you business. And I'm sure you have occasion where you have an estate that needs to sell property that you refer to. What do you see as the one or two best practices of the real estate agents that you feel comfortable referring your clients to in those cases?

31:48 So one of the main things I look for is communication cuz that's one of the things that looks poorly on me when I refer to somebody say, you know, this person did a good job, but I don't think they communicated very well. Well, they might have got you top dollar, but you're still unhappy with them. So, communication is key. You know, I like to sit down with them and talk to them about you know, how they do these things and how they keep their clients up to date on the process and what's going on and so on and so forth because, you know, lack of communication is where lack of trust starts to build. So, that's the first thing that I really see or that I really look for. And then, you know, obviously you want someone that's going to do what's best for the client, you know, not a not a self-centered agent or anything like that. Fantastic. Well, Casey, look, I appreciate obviously you've your wealth of knowledge and we've gone, for a while, but I'm kind of at the time I paid for. Just kidding. I you've been very generous with your time to offer to us today. For those who want more information, regarding Casey and the, service he offers, caseydconklin.com is the website and there's a picture there and all kinds of good information if you if you go down below. And then I have on the screen as well as contact information with his office phone number and email and so on. Thank you so much for the time today you spent with us, Casey, and I appreciate your time and look forward to, continuing the conversation with you.

33:08 Yeah, thanks, Bill. It's been fun. And for the rest of you, this is Probate Weekly. We get together every week, most commonly with a estate planning or probate attorney, also with vendors sometimes to help us be more effective in our business. If I can help in any way, reach out at Bill Gross Probate in social media. Please like and subscribe this if you like it or subscribe to if you want more. As always, make today your best day ever. Thanks so much.