Managing Complex Trusts and Multi-Million Dollar Accounts, with Attorney Vanessa Terzian

0:03 So if you follow my podcast, I regularly say that when I get called about or asked for a referral to an attorney, I always ask them what it's for. And there's only two types or two buckets, main buckets to start off with in my book. There's those that help you file, administer, in probate or in a trust, or those that are going to litigate, they're going to fight your way out of some problem or fight you through some problem you have. They're just two different worlds entirely. We're really lucky today to have an attorney here who's with one of the larger firms here in Southern California that covers both. Lagerlof, and we've had on their past their managing partner, managing director, [unclear], one of the best I think in the business. I'm really lucky to have to have his colleague Vanessa Terzian who does probate administration and trust administration. Thanks for joining us, Vanessa.

0:48 Thanks for having me, Bill. And just to explain the balance, so you do you don't do litigation, you do administration of probate and trust, but your husband's a litigator.

0:56 I'm married to a litigator. We met the first day of law school. He sat next to me in contracts class, and the rest is history, and we did practice together for some time, which was a lot of fun. But yeah, I learned actually with practicing with litigators here, colleagues here at Lagerlof that litigate, and my husband who litigates, as a planner, I really know now what not to do. So it's actually really helpful to see that.

1:18 Makes sense to me that you need to see kind of where the missiles hit in order to avoid those spots. So maybe we can jump right into it. Obviously, I know you do estate planning and administration, but what are some of the key kind of a speed bumps or key landmines that you try to avoid around that you see commonly people trip up and get in trouble over?

1:37 You know, I think there's a couple of them. I think the first issue that arises doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the documents, more about the relationships. And often times when I'm representing an administrator in a probate estate, an executor, or a successor trustee of a trust, I tell them what's going to lead to litigation or an issue is going to be a breakdown in communication. So, when the communication Sometimes it's too late by the time they get down to me. I'm I'm involved because I have to be the go-between, then I try to bridge that gap. So, I think the breakdown in communication is number one. I try to tell my trustee clients, it's it's not personal. They're asking questions not because they doubt you or maybe they do, but don't take it personally. They're just feeling a bit in the dark and they're not sure about what, you know, what's going on. So, it's kind of human nature to sort of assume the worst

2:28 Yep. in those situations, and so I think the breakdown in communication is number one. I think number two, if you're looking at the documents themselves, overly complex trusts are actually lead to a lot of confusion and a lot of potential litigation. So, I try to make things as simple and straightforward as possible.

2:46 So, let's break that down a little bit. Go back. I think one things I've noticed in interviewing attorneys in this space is that while we all kind of tend towards either the technical skills of our business, I'm a real estate agent, you're an attorney, the legal stuff, or we tend towards the communication soft what I call soft skills, that the people who are successful in this business really have to master both because you can be the world's best attorney, but if you can't communicate to your client in a way they can implement it, you're not going to get very far. So, you really need to have both.

3:16 I've always thought, and I think someone told me this years ago, the best attorneys are something that some one that takes something very complex and breaks it down to something that's understandable and manageable and bite-sized for their clients.

3:29 Yeah. One of the things I oftentimes I'm a little adversarial position with attorneys. Being a real estate broker, I deal with probate and litigation, and representing my client, sometimes the other attorney will say to me, "Well, you're not an attorney, are you? How do you know that?" And I would say to them, "Well, it's written in English. Like, you know, I've done this a few times."

3:44 The contract says that. Yeah, that's what the contract says. I'm not making this up here. I'm not You know, I didn't go to law school to get that information. I just read it. It's really It's written in English. So, Yeah, so part of it is just really communicating and I think that that But you really it's not even just communicating with the documents, but I think it's probably in your case when you do estate planning, it's like watching, paying attention, listening, hearing the tonality, like noticing when they say something, they might not really mean that, but you need to ask a question to dig in a little bit.

4:10 I mean, in your area as well, you have to sort of gain trust very quickly with your clients so that you can start hearing what might be difficult things for them to talk about or hearing the background and why they're setting up an estate plan this way or understanding the background of the relationships understand why this might be the best direction, how to draft something or who would be in charge and I think that's really one of your first skills that you need both as a real estate agent and broker and as an attorney is kind of getting that trust, building that trust very quickly.

4:45 I'm just curious just cuz I've talked to you this year a lot and I never really asked this question. In course of law school training, do you get taught about communication? Do you get taught about, you know, the behavioral, you know, organization behavior issues when you deal with clients and other attorneys?

4:59 I'll be honest. I always look back and think, oh, I should have my majored in psychology before going to law school because it might have changed over time, but law school was very theoretical and a little bit less practical when I went 20 years ago. I think there's probably been a build towards more practical aspects of it, but it's it's a lot of it learned as you go on the job and understanding have a high emotional IQ and reading cues like you said and understanding people pretty quickly and reading between the lines and again kind of engaging in clear communication with your clients as well.

5:34 So, I've worked with your firm in multiple probates and cases and one thing I know is that you guys have really strong staff, right? When I called Josh for a referral and he would maybe send me to the attorney who would handle the particular matter cuz you know, give me the outline and he you know, whatever he knows your you guys well enough. but then I also know you guys have staff and I need to pay attention to who those are because as good as the attorney is, they're only as good as the staff either they manage or are in your organization that are being managed for you.

6:02 Yeah, and particularly with probate, I mean probate is very driven by paraprofessionals like a paralegal. About 90% is really a lot coming down to that paraprofessional. And it puts the client at ease because they can have more regular communication perhaps with a para- paralegal and understand, okay, this was filed, this is what we're waiting for, this is what the next step is. For probate specifically, I always tell my clients it's very much hurry up and then wait. Hurry up and then wait.

6:30 Yes. And so it feels like something might not be happening for a long period of time when something might be in the background. So we have a great team. I mean it starts from legal assistants to paralegals to associate attorneys to a partner level. And I definitely can't work without a team approach.

6:48 You know, and you really do. Just for those watching, I mean I work with you know, cases with multiple firms cuz sometimes a customer picks them and so they come into me. And you know, another similar sized firm, similar kind of quality in some regards, but their staff isn't the same. And so what happens is they're a little you know, a little longer to get the filing done than planned on. And whereas your firm is always right away copied me cuz I'm involved with a client and that will give additional comfort to the customer that we're as a team we're working on top of it. This other one that the matter had been filed 3 days ago. I happened to go online and check on the court records and caught it and said to the client, "Oh, we were filed and we have a case number, we have a court date." And the attorneys, you know, paralegals hadn't told them or maybe they emailed them and went to spam or something, but it's just like those extra 2 days, that client was mad. Like every day she's really frustrated.

7:43 Yeah, I think what we enjoy doing is really working with a team of professionals like yourself on the real estate side and let's say you know if there's other aspects of the plan where there might be the financial advisor and the financial advisor is going to help get an estate account set up or the banker really kind of taking that team approach and then keeping everyone in the loop to the extent we can is much more it makes it look probate is not going to be a fun experience anyway you cut it.

8:12 Correct. That's why I talk you're not going to like me at the end of this very much because it's not personal. It's not It's not personal. It's just out of my control. There's variables out of our control. So I'm so I'm very hyper focused on the variables. What can we control? Well, we can certainly control our response times to the client looping other professionals in having the right professionals involved. I mean you know probate sales are different from a typical estate sale as typical real estate transaction and those nuances are important.

8:45 Yeah, it's and it's interesting sometimes I'll have to explain to an attorney who might be one of the world's great attorneys other than probate that you know if you have limited authority and need court confirmation you need to file the publication. You need to before you sign the contract or else you're just not going to get it approved. I don't care how much you want it approved. The judge isn't going to get talked into it. It just doesn't work that way. And yet you know again other firms are more set up. So one of the things that is very common with real estate agents and the reason why I think I launched this podcast was

9:16 [snorts] like any realtor involved in this business we've all talked to customers. We show up thinking we know that the property is deeded in the name of Bob and Mary Smith and they go oh no we have an estate plan and I say really I look at them I note my profile sheet and it says Bob and Mary Smith they go oh no we have it they run in their room Excuse me they come back with this beautiful binder like Naugahyde thick, lots of stuff in it. They open back the folder and it says right on there the letter to them, "Don't forget to execute this deed and get it recorded." Number one problem it seems like in estate planning, the real fall down is like on the five-yard line, we just don't get the last bit done. Now, I guess it could be the customer's really not committed. I don't think it's that. I just think somehow the system lets them down. How do you push clients without being too pushy?

10:05 It takes a lot of work. I'll be honest, though. I think it's it's partly yes, we're so close, but the whole process has taken a bit and you're just tired by the end of it. again, going back to the idea of okay, what variables can I control? Well, I certainly can make sure the deed is signed. Literally, if the client has a property, they're going to sign the trust one second, and the next document they're going to sign is the deed putting the house into the trust. And then I train my clients, I'm going to reach out to you every 3 years, but every year when you get your property tax bill, check that it says the name of the trust on there because you could refinance, they could take it out, or what have you. so, you know, I think when you're setting up an estate plan, that's the idea of, well, you know, what kind of attorney do I want to work with? Is someone that's transactional, doing a piece of paper, going to have me sign and then see you later, or is it going to be built on a relationship [snorts] that over time ensures that the trust is funded? So, that is probably one of the most common mistakes that I see is the trust was never initially funded or additional property was purchased and wasn't under the name of the trust. It's not hard to do, like you said, it just takes that extra step to connect those dots.

11:14 Right. Which is why when they have the right real estate professional or have the a financial advisor that they work with, I want to talk to that person and I want to say, "Okay, here's the trust information, all the accounts that you know about, we need to do X, Y, and Z." And the accounts that we don't, okay, then it takes it whittles down the clients to do list to maybe a couple bank accounts and that's manageable or maybe they're bank a couple bank accounts in a 401k that they have to handle through beneficiary designation with their with their employer. So trying to the last phase of an estate planning process is going to be the funding and that's going to be the really critical but then the maintenance of it over you know the course of lifetime is to make sure it still contains and the assets you need it to is properly funded.

12:00 [snorts] Let's focus on the maintenance for just a second we'll come back to the I mean the funding we'll go back to the maintenance. Cuz the funding is obviously as a realtor that's what I see all the time right? I either see they didn't do it or they did do it and then they you say they took out to refinance or something happened. So in your practice do you as a company you have the customer sign you prepare the deed for them?

12:21 Yes. have them sign it when they do the notary of the rest of the documents? Do you oversee the recording of the document as well? Yes we do. And see that's an important distinction that I think when people shop for attorneys and also when they look at fees a course it costs less if they're not going to do the job. If they're selling you a packet of forms and a notebook that's cheaper than actual getting the job done.

12:43 And I mean it's fine you know people might have a different price point or be looking for something different so I'm a still a firm believer something's better than nothing [clears throat] but there is a difference and you do get what you pay for.

12:55 Though legally an estate plan that's not executed isn't worth much more than nothing I mean No and I've seen you know

13:03 [clears throat] wills have a different execution requirement than trusts so I've seen things incorrectly signed or literally as you probably seen not signed at all like it shipped to them in some nice fancy binder and none of the documents are actually signed.

13:19 Literally we have a 40 million dollar estate that I'm working on where he had a beautiful binder and I'm sure he paid 20,000 dollars or more it was a very complicated plan there was a lot of stuff to it. He had multiple properties, he had a business and it now in you know in his case not sure if he just wasn't ready to execute it because he was making some changes or he just didn't get to it. I it's at best 50/50 and it seems to me that if he wasn't ready the attorney might have said well what is the problem because it was it was there for a couple years.

13:50 Wow. And just expense on the attorney's fees and the extra accounting fees and taxes. I mean you're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars for that differential. So the funding and again just to highlight for those who are watching very important to ask the attorney do they help you execute the documents required and then in particular on the real estate do they oversee the recording. We as realtors I believe when we refer to somebody and we call our customer back a month later did you know meet with Vanessa? Oh I did. Great what did we do? Oh we have a plan. Oh that's fantastic. We can also check three days later and see if the recording shows in public records. I think that's being a good real estate agent. It's public record it's not snooping in the backyard. And you might not call them three days later. Hey notice it's not recorded. Is there something wrong? Is there a problem? You know did you know you not follow Vanessa's instructions? I'm here to help. How can we help you do this? So again I think that's so important the funding part. Now I know that generally attorneys don't get into getting bank accounts like they'll give an instruction sheet typically.

14:46 Yeah so [clears throat] and if I if you know I think there's a lost art to having a banker. I'll be honest with you like I think you should have a banker. That is someone you can call. I mean I was literally texting with my banker City National this morning and she texts me right back within five minutes. Imagine that but that seems to be less and less common. So that means then you do need to take so literally my clients will get what's called a funding folder. It will have the instructions of what to do a copy of the certification of trust with like a little cheat sheet of what the trust name is date is the information and if they just walk into the bank and hopefully talk to someone who knows what they're doing and that will help them either, you know, put the account under the trust name or at least the trust as a beneficiary. So, I got a pretty clear step checklist on what to do. Again, if they're working with financial advisor on their investment accounts, I could just work directly and interface with them.

15:44 And they love to help that stuff. They're Those guys are on top of that. Yeah, and then last but not least, you had to bring it up before I forget, it's just business interest. You know, if I have an LLC or maybe my real estate is held in an LLC, the deed isn't going to change, but the LLC needs to be assigned and the membership interest needed to be updated to be owned by the trust. So, there are a few kind of nuances to that.

16:08 Yeah, I like you point about the last part of having a banker, you know, I didn't think I did, but I had because my business I often get cashier's checks and so I've met the branch manager at this local bank. I hate the bank, but over time you meet somebody two, three times, she literally sent me somebody, you know, looking to buy something literally yesterday. I got a phone call, "Who referred you?" Well, she's the manager at the, you know, blank bank down on wherever. And like, "Wow, I guess you meet somebody and you're nice and you impress them and they see you have some money, they're going to do some business with you cuz they want their clients taken care of. So, if you're business especially meeting your banker, it is a lost art. I think there's a there's a place for that that we're somehow missing, but can be worked.

16:49 Yeah, I mean, you only get so far online or calling an 800 number. That personal connection will help you in a bind if you need something and it's it's a good idea.

16:59 Yeah. So, let's talk about a little bit about maintenance because obviously you have the world's greatest plan day one and three years later they're divorced, they're married, they have kids, they don't have kids, something happened, business sold, business bought, real estate bought. The whole basis of the plan can be turned upside down. Talk about the process of staying in touch with people so that they realize the plan has to talk about the process of staying in touch with

17:23 So, you know, I tell my clients to call me at life events. All those events, all of the above that you just mentioned are events you be talking to your estate planner about, to be honest. divorce is a big one. Most likely the plan is not going to work anymore because it's going to give your ex-spouse control over everything which you don't want and in fact statute by law, it invalidates the power of attorney for example when the divorce is final. So, you have to update it. you buy something, sell something. Health issues are important. I'm dealing with two clients right now that I know they're at some point going to likely lose capacity [clears throat] due to a disease that is degenerative over time. I need to know that because in one case we're changing who the successor trustee is. It's just not the right person anymore given what's [clears throat] going on. And if I don't hear from the client, I bug them. So, they'll get a note from me every 3 years just kind of saying, "Hey, it's been 3 years. What's changed?" Even if it's just sort of updating the inventory of assets, keeping a list, what is one of the most valuable things for your successor trustee or executor is a inventory what you have that's relatively up to date. I call it like a location list. Everything that you own and where to find it because they won't know. Magically, they don't have that information stored in their brain. You need to prepare that for them. So, we keep that up to date for our clients as well, too.

18:45 Such you know, I have a spreadsheet that have a location of you know, various things and I show my wife all the time and somehow like every 2 years she say, "I don't know where everything is." I say, "Honey, literally it's on a spreadsheet

18:56 [laughter] I share with you." But, you know, whatever. I'm I'm on computer all day long and she's not. So you know, I think I need to find a more effective solution than that. Just as I talk out loud.

19:08 It's not so much Okay, so yeah, here's the asset and I right next to it I would put who to call. Right. Okay, so for this account you call this person, for this insurance policy you call this person, so they can just make a few phone calls, hopefully just a hand handful of phone calls, and they have at least maybe 80% of the information or data that they need.

19:28 You know, in real estate if you showed me a contract written 5 years ago, I say, "Ooh, it probably isn't going to be sufficient cuz the laws have changed in certain areas so much that what you what we used 5 years ago just misses some glaring holes today and creates some exposure." How long is in estate plan if somebody has not changed their life much, but I imagine there's some default period by which laws have changed on health issues and on capacity issues?

19:55 We're probably not as it's not as it's not as exciting or as, you know, change. I mean, there's estate tax laws change that might impact the plan. there are a few things, like, you know, when HIPAA became a law, that was obviously a big overhaul. less probably than your industry, perhaps, but it is I definitely within, you know, 5 to 10 years something will have changed within the provisions or terms of the trust, that that needed to be updated.

20:28 One of the areas that I've gotten more I've been focused hyperfocused on probate for about 6 7 years now where, you know, every day that's what I work on. And over time one of the things that's changed for me is the value that I recognize the value of, fiduciaries, of a third party to either on a probate to be the administrator where there's warring parties, even when there's friendly parties who might be too busy or don't have the ability. I know as a real estate agent just selling the house sometimes I would say to the attorney, "I just don't think they have the ability to reply quick enough to counteroffers and negotiations and credits, and you know, you lose a deal and you can lose 20, 30, 40,000 like that given the prices we have. I feel like that that those jobs and the people who do it would work so hard. I wouldn't do that that business myself as a business. That the people offer you shares is a lot of work. Talk about the role where you see professional fiduciaries. Is it something you work with regularly? Do you encourage people to consider? Is it overpriced?

21:29 I think that's a great point in general. I would go so far as to say I can draft the [clears throat] perfect plan. You know, legally and technically sound, but if I have the wrong person administering it, the wrong fiduciary, the wrong trustee, the wrong executor,

21:44 Right. it will go down the toilet. So, that is a really important consideration. I find more and more people are thinking about it either because they've been the trustee for a friend or family member and they realize it's not first four to six months almost a full-time job.

22:00 Mhm. At the very least a part-time job and you should be treating it as such because you have a huge amount of liability if you don't do a good job. Right.

22:08 So, the idea of paying a professional to do it is worthy. I mean, it's worthy of consideration. You know, I used to my career started as a [unclear] for a corporate trustee. So, that's kind of a different level where a large financial institution is going to serve and that's probably not a good fit for most of my clients, but it is a good fit for some. and then you have individuals who are licensed by the state of California by the [unclear] and they will serve in that role especially if you don't qualify, you don't have a large enough estate to work with a larger trustee or trust company. so, I think it's not a fit for everyone, but it's worth the discussion of saying, "Okay, if I if I don't want to you know, burden a family member or friend with this and I don't have someone qualified I need someone to do [clears throat] it." And people get really caught up in the fee and I kind of say, well, wait a second. If you're paying a professional to do it, they're not going to have to hire 10 other professionals to advise them because they are professional.

23:12 Correct. So, an individual layperson is going to have to probably spend a lot more money and time and it will delay the process or maybe they won't get back to the real turn time and cost the estate 30 40 thousand dollars. So, the fee isn't the issue. It's really finding the right person. You know, you want to interview a few fiduciaries, understand well, what is you know, they're great [clears throat] in an emergency situation where we need someone to step in because there is kind of a dysfunction typically in a scenario. but if you name them now and you don't know when they're going to be implemented, that's another way you will need to have you kind of revisit your trust every so often to make sure they're still the right person. But it is a good idea and you know, some either bill on a flat fee basis based on a percentage of the estate, which is usually equal to what a corporate trustee would charge around 1%. Some bill hourly, which means they're going to track their time like attorneys do and they're going to earn every penny of that time in my humble opinion.

24:08 [clears throat] but it's it's not like I said, the end all be all for everyone, but it's worthy of a of consideration.

24:17 Yeah, I think the word you use is a is a job and for those of us who are self-employed or quasi self-employed, I'm not sure how you look at I know you're an attorney with a firm, but that's I would look at it as a self-employed.

24:28 I'm so yeah. So, for me, I'm a real estate broker with a large company, but it's my business at the end of the day. I don't work for anybody. I couldn't work for anybody. I'm just not interested in working for the man. I you know, I did that when I was younger and but when you're an administrator of an estate as a fiduciary, you're working for your estate. You're When people have complaints, you need to be paying attention because they can cause problems. It's not like they're just crazy and let it go. Well, they can be crazy and but they're going to tell it to the judge and now you have some splaining to do.

24:57 Yeah. it is a I've had trustees tell me [clears throat] it's affected their health because of the stress level. It's affected their job because they've had to time take time off for it. It's affected their family cuz they're not around as much. So before you accept that role, so let's flip it. I mean, someone's asked you to be trustee.

25:20 Mhm. think about it a little bit before you just say, "Okay, yes, I'll do it." You don't have to say yes. I had a family member who passed and I assumed We talked about different issues. I assumed she was going to name me as the as the successor trustee just cuz I'm in this business and stuff. And she didn't. and I remember my sister who called me up to tell me that was like was like so nervous. I was like, "Honey, this is great. I'd have to do [laughter] it."

25:46 You're like, "Oh, goodness. I'm so I'm glad to help you cuz now you And you know, she was you know, busy with it. I mean, it was you know, it is work. I mean, it's a lot of paperwork. It's a lot of forms. It's like dealing with the banks and insurance companies and waiting on hold with IRS for 20 minutes. It's It's It's stuff that nobody really wants to Nobody would apply for the job. Now, the business people do it. They've learned some systems, procedures, processes to make it work for them. So I would do it. Now, when you talk about larger estates and in cases where there's litigation, often you have to have somebody in the middle because nobody can agree on something. That's a different story. And so I kind of plan those more now, which are kind of fun as a real estate agent cuz maybe the client has a portfolio of property, the estate has a portfolio. And somebody has to manage all that, get the properties online, figure out where the rents are, and who's not paying rent, and all that kind of stuff. So there you're definitely using Do you have those resources in house, or do you work with outside third party fiduciaries, or how do you approach that process?

26:42 It's it's a little mixed bag. So we have a fiduciary support department where we can do the accountings, where we run some trusts out of. I mean, Lagerlof has been around for 120 years, so there are some charitable trust, for example, that I sit on with a couple of partners as trustee. And so, in some cases, we're kind of running point on that. In other cases, we're hired by the fiduciary to walk them through what the process is. In other cases, we're representing the professional fiduciary. So, it is we're kind of prepared to do whatever's sort of needed in that fiduciary realm and space. And I think where it what sets us apart is that fiduciary accounting capability. A trust or estate or probate accounting looks very different from what you would think it looks like.

27:31 Yes. Yes. It's not a P&L. It's not, you know, account statements. For it to be in court format, it's a very kind of art form. So, you need to work with either, you know, a firm like our or a fiduciary accounting firm that understands that. So, I think that's really important as well, too.

27:49 And you know, I think clients who didn't have, you know, weren't with firms like yours and they didn't offer the service, it's hard to find somebody who just does that work. Like there's not a lot in bookkeeping in general is another one of those fields without enough bookkeepers and tax preparers. And of course, if you're trying to call them in March or April,

28:06 [laughter] you never get them on the phone. So, that's an area that requires specialized expertise. And I think it sounds like you guys bring that to the party, which is probably pretty helpful. Yeah.

28:15 And just a question, do you have Are you required by your firm rules to mention you've been in business for over 100 years every podcast or is that just [laughter] something you threw in there?

28:23 You know, it's it's neat to me because it's it's I get to see multi-generational planning that's worked. This is what I like about it. Like I said, I might say take an you know, an estate plan that I set up and I've been letting a lot of my estate plans. I've also admit you know, administered a lot of estate plans. I haven't drafted. I didn't know any I have no connection, but I'm trying to help with the some of these trusts that were set up by [unclear] from years ago. It's like we've been through this now to couple generations and you as you probably know statistically wealth doesn't transition to the third generation.

29:00 Typically, yeah. It's it doesn't. It just dissipates at some point before then. So to see it actually all the planning work and come to fruition is pretty cool. So we do brag about it, but I think it the reason why is because it's so neat to see as a planner things work.

29:17 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the lot of things I need about you and your firm I also noticed that you guys that you personally do some I don't know what the term is, but you know, outreach, but also education in particular with the cancer and I'm kind of connected to that in the sense that my wife literally today is in the hospital post cancer surgery is a is a area that we feel very committed to. Talk a bit about what's it like from a business development to do educational you know, outreach in the community and particular why is it so common as estate planning and charities? To me it seems like an obvious connection. Talk about how that connection works.

29:51 You know, I think there's a couple things. First, there's a lot of I find it [clears throat] very rewarding to educate people about this topic just like you do through your podcast. I think there's so much information out on the internet that it's really hard to sift through what's correct. and even with AI you still get wrong answers. So it I think providing quality educate good information to the community is very important and I find it very enjoyable and rewarding. I think the connection between estate planners and charitable planning is often times we might have clients who incorporate a charity organization within their estate plan, or they might be thinking about it and not know how to go about it the right way.

30:31 Right. so that is a kind of a unique connection that we have as planners to organizations who again want to educate people on how if you have this connection to this organization, what's the you know, what's the best way you want your supporting them anyway. So, how do you be most [clears throat] tax efficient when you do that?

30:48 Right. How can you use most leverage for the money you're already involved with them? And there's certain tax advantages and ways to do that that help the organization also helps the organization sustain itself, you know, when they when they create these kind of relationships. So, I think it's I think it's great when organizations that are worthy. Now, there's lots that are not, but those are worthy organizations say to their supporters, "Hey, this is something where you can support us and we can support you. We'll bring in the best in the business to talk about how to do this and you can prepare yourself properly." So, well, thanks for that work. I appreciate that. I know I've got a little bit over time and so at your hourly rate I can't go too much longer. But, this is a pleasure talking to you. I always enjoy when we talk to people at Lagerlof. I know we get really great support from them on our business. if you want more Lagerlof LLP is the company. Lagerlof.com is the website. And then Vanessa's information we have down below. phone number [phone number shown on screen]. Vanessa Terzian. attorney at Lagerlof handling probate administration, trust administration, but frankly I'm sure if you have questions even outside the bounds of that, she can refer you to other people on the team. Thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it.

31:50 Thanks, Bill. That was fun. And that's it for this Probate Weekly. We get together every week with typically probate attorneys, estate planning attorneys, litigators to help us be more effective in helping our clients. What did you think of it today? Did you like it? It's a great firm. We've had several people on their firm as guests. let me know. Like, subscribe, send me a comment. If you want to be on an interview, let me know. Or just reach out if I can help at Bill Gross Probate on social media. As always, make today your best day ever. Thanks so much.