How Private Investigators Find Missing Heirs, with Michael Zwick

0:02 Right now, literally billions of dollars of assets are sitting frozen waiting for somebody to claim to move forward. Not being utilized by our economy and more probably not being utilized by your clients or you. Unfortunately, we have somebody here who helps find these heirs and find and put them together with the assets. Michael J. Zweig who is a I think the term is private investigator, but he'll give us the details helps find missing heirs and get their inheritance put together. Michael, thank you for coming back on Private Weekly.

0:28 My pleasure, Bill. Great to be here. You're the Probate PI. Tell me about what it is you do. Sure. So, I'm an attorney turned private investigator. My company, which is a licensed private investigation agency, specializes in locating missing heirs and beneficiaries in probate and estate proceedings. We also do locating missing heirs or people you know, real estate issues where they need to you know, there's a cloud on title or title needs to be needs to be cured. And they need to find people. We do asset searches for estates where someone has died and didn't tell anyone what they own. And we also do a lot of recovery of unclaimed property money sitting in government treasuries.

1:12 So, let's try to break it down and what I've been involved with you is we had a property that we knew somebody owned, but nobody was raising their hand. In California, there's a little known provision which is anybody can file probate. There's an order of precedence of who gets all the probate and we retained your firm and lo and behold, you found in this case I think it was three or four different people who were heirs to a property in Cali- heirs to a property in California. Talk about the process what that looks like.

1:40 Yes. So, you know, we deal with the case like that where you know, like in your case, there were our investors who might have their eye on a piece of property and they know the owner has died and they would like to buy it, but they have to find the people that they can offer. And people who are authorized to take that offer and accept or negotiate it. So we've done work on case like that where we'll you know we'll start with the owner and we'll track down who are the heirs and we'll contact them and see if they're amenable to you know selling the house and getting cash. Usually excuse me they will because you know in most those cases they're often more cousins or nieces or nephews who don't really A didn't really know the person that well otherwise they would have known that person passed away. And B don't really have any sort of emotional connection to the property and for them it's really just found money to have this offer dropped in their laps. But we also like I said we do with real estate cases where there's might be a cloud on the title you have a transaction going through and all of a sudden you know I'll give you a case that I hear in Orlando which is where I'm based. The attorney was handling a case and they found that somebody was given an easement 100 years ago.

3:00 The easement is you know for all intents and purposes worthless. But at the same time it's holding up the process they can't go through with the no you know you're not going to get title insurance on that on the transaction because you have an issue of what happens if the person comes forward. So there are two options. One is just to do a quiet title action. The other one is to track down the heirs. And of the owner cuz in this case if the owner got the title 100 years ago he or he was most certainly dead. To track down the heirs and say hey we you know you have this asset we'd like to negotiate you know to you sign off on it. Or you know obviously to order to be nice and just sign off and then not even accept money. And even if they won't and we or we can't get them on the phone if nothing else when you go to court with the first option, which is the quiet title action, you can show the court you've done your due diligence. And you And you've tried to find this person. The court will be more amenable to grant that order quieting title.

4:06 So, to go back to the first case where there's a property identified, but who owns it, we're not clear. We need to find those heirs. And then you go out and find those heirs. You're calling them with found money. Now, you charge a fee for that. Do you get paid a flat fee up in advance, or are you getting a percentage of the findings from the heirs if they agree to sell the property?

4:25 Typically, we work on a on a contingency fee basis where we will essentially to put it in very simple terms, go to the heirs and say, "Hey, we found this asset that you have an entitlement to. In exchange for a percentage, we'll not only tell you know, what and where it is, but also facilitate your getting that." which and as you know, Bill, as you know, that can require a whole bunch of hoops you got to jump through. I usually have to have an estate opened. You have to show the court that the people that we found are indeed the proper heirs. And now that they are the No, are they proper heirs that we've that we've found all the heirs to the exclusion of everybody else. And then obviously dealing with a you know, getting the transaction done so that the air you know, the sale can go through and the heirs can get their inheritance.

5:15 So really this is a something that can be a win for everybody in that the city and past, there's an empty property. In this particular case that we worked on, the neighbors were upset because there were squatters and cats, like a lot of cats in the property and squatters doing illegal activities in the property. They wanted out. The home association wasn't collecting dues. The county wasn't collecting any rent. The city doesn't like the squatters. The heirs love the money. I'm a real estate agent. We want to sell property. Everybody wins, but this process has to kind of get lined up. So, what's it like in this case? I think there were three or four different heirs. How long does it take from the day you get the assignment, "Hey, here's a property and here's the story that we know." And then you have to do your research, and then you have to reach out to the people, and then they have to agree to it. How long does it take for you to get the assignment before you know, typically, I'm sure it varies a lot, but what's a typical time period? People don't just say, "Oh, sure, I'll sign away my rights to this." For all they know, it's worth a billion dollars. What's the price time process look like from you getting an assignment to typically the heirs are on board?

6:18 Usually to get them to find identify and find them and get them on board, usually is Well, let me back up. To identify and find them, is usually within usually a few days. But then it's the matter of getting them on board. Sometimes they I One of the big factors how many there are. Because when you've got 20 heirs, it's like herding cats. If you have two or three, this is obviously makes things simpler. And then, you know, sometimes people they'll, you know, we'll contact them via email or phone, and they'll sign the same day. Sometimes though it can drag out. They've got things going on in their lives. They want to see if they can find the asset themselves. There's a variety of things. But, you know, typically for the time we get the case to the time we actually sign them and get people on board, it's usually a month, maybe two.

7:13 So, in a case like this where there are heirs, you're charging a percentage to the heirs, and they agree. Of course, your state doesn't care cuz they're it's the same money. They're just dividing it up. There are cases where you are retained because they can't find any heirs, and you're being paid for research. So, what does that process look like?

7:33 Right. So, sometimes what In most cases, sometimes, you know, we'll take on a case where the heirs aren't inheriting anything, or they're inherit inheriting a smaller amount that's that we're if we were to take a ticket interest to be basis, it just wouldn't be worth our while. So that will do an hourly fee basis where we will say okay, you know, we usually look it over and we'll I give a quote to the executor or whoever's hiring us as to you know, how long we think it's going to take and then we go to work and we'll you know, do a whole family tree and show, you know, not only who the heirs are, but also same way with in this case show how we got we have to as we all did in math when we were kids, we have to show our work. We can't just show for example that oh, we found Bill Gross, he's the grandson. We have to show okay, Bill's father or mother was so and so who was the son or daughter of the deceased and we have to document that too. We can't just lay out the facts, we actually have to use documents like death certificates and birth certificates and whatever else that will show that we found the right people.

8:39 So in cases and of course where there's more people, the money gets divided to smaller amounts, smaller amounts, their motivation goes down, smaller amounts, you know, your fees it gets difficult. So like what is an hourly rate when it gets down to is a small enough amount, but we can't proceed without them? What's an hourly rate you know, range for hiring you to do the research and provide the documentation to the state?

9:03 Our typical hourly rate is $300. And yes, there are there are cases where the entire estate might only you know, the net that worth of the estate might only be a few thousand dollars. And the people might whoever's handling the estate might just say, you know what, I'm not even going to bother opening probate, it's just not worth it. We'll just let the let the property go, let it be foreclosed by the county and let you know, let the county take it.

9:29 Right. It happens. Yeah, exactly. And this happens, but like everything else, the counties move very slowly and if you're a neighbor and upset with it, then it becomes a problem. So, sometimes like I said, anybody can file a probate and if you want to put the money up and you want to get the property sold, you have the chance to do that. You just have to step in and be willing to do the work. And it's challenging to do that work, especially when there's multiple heirs who don't have any relationship. It You say it's herding cats.

9:53 It's more like herding cats. I was going to say you know, I know you said what the rules in California and some states a you have to actually have some sort of standing, some sort of relationship, prior relationship with the deceased in order to open a probate. I do know that the rule in California the same rule applies in Oklahoma. But plenty of other states you have to show that you're a relative or a creditor or something like that. And you know, so it's And some states also allow for what's called a public administrator who is allowed to usually someone appointed by the court or authorized by the court to open up probate and become the executor of the estate.

10:35 And so, for an hourly fee of $300, you'll certify for an estate there are no known heirs. You'll do the research and come back with a report and say there are no known or this one heir is the only one that's known based on our records and the court will take that report under consideration.

10:49 Right. Yeah, there are cases where someone has no known heirs because most states you know, people think that heirs are any are any relative, but in most states the term heir is a definition that has a limit on it. Usually, it's the descendants of the grandparents or descendants of the great-grandparents, meaning a third or fourth cousin would not qualify as an heir in pretty much any state.

11:17 A cousin or a second cousin would. Famously, I think in the Howard Hughes case, it was he got to second cousins and there were hundreds of them, I think. But I think California does have a more expansive definition of heirs. Like I said, I think most states it's the it's the issue of the grandparents, which would limit it to first cousins or first cousins' children and not second cousins.

11:38 Yeah. First cousins or first cousins once removed, I think is the actual that we refer to them, right? Yeah. Yeah, so you that's confusion. I get asked that for like, "What's the difference between first cousin once removed and second cousins?" And if you want, I can ex- basically explain the difference. But

11:54 It's a mind bender. You go you go to weddings with big families and you start playing games. If you don't work in the field, that is that's definitely something that can confuse people.

12:02 So, let's step back a little bit from the activity in terms of the business side of it. So, you built this business and congratulations. I've seen your you have a following nationally and seem to have relations with some of the top attorneys around the country. What's your basic strategy as far as business development? I mean, I know you've built a business now and you have source people who send you business and of course, you always want more. What was the primary focus that you used to build your business? Was it attorneys or was it consumers?

12:29 So, in terms of the unclaimed you know, the building of our business was much more with unclaimed property, which fortunately, you didn't need to do any but networking. You just would we get these lists from government agencies of the assets they're having holding and we track down the owners or in many cases, the owners' heirs if the owners have passed away and contact them. You know, we still have to do sales, but we wouldn't have to do marketing, which are two different things. In terms of the getting business of missing heirs or real estate cases like, you know, we discussed, that's much more through marketing. We don't do much in terms of advertising. We don't do we don't do for paid searches on internet. You know, I'm very active in networking, which we do, you know, I'm on the active on LinkedIn. And I see you put my LinkedIn handle on there and we'll have people come, you know, say hi. I'm still very active in various networking organizations like I was in BNI, I'm very active in ProVisors. And because our cases come from all over country, I network virtually. You know, today the today alone I had one call with someone in Atlanta and an hour later I was on a on a call with someone from Boston.

13:48 Oh. And so and that you were doing the networking with BNI and ProVisors just cuz those are sources of contacts are the profiles of people you get in business from primarily attorneys?

14:01 Primarily it is from yes, from trust and estates attorneys or real estate attorneys. Those are definitely our top referral sources also from banks, from the trust and, you know, estate the departments in banks. We do a lot We do a lot of work with them as well.

14:19 So, I mean, I know those groups. I was at ProVisors meeting last week actually. And you know, they can be tough nuts to crack, right? Cuz you're talking about people who are going there to build relationships, not just to put the name on a referral list. So, what are some strategies that you see that have worked for you in these networking events that maybe you see other people coming to that are not maybe being as effective as you are.

14:40 I'd say first of all, you can't just show up once to I speak more about ProVisors cuz I haven't I have not been in BNI in a few years. So, ProVisors for example has over 400 local groups. You can attend a lot of them cuz often do meet virtually. And then there are what are called affinity groups which are special interests whether it's tied to a industry like trust and estates or real estate. But then there are also lawyer affinity groups, there are black professional affinity groups, there are women's groups. And so, I guessed a lot at the state of succession planning cuz that's where probate needs probate and estate attorneys tend to hang out. And but it's not just a matter of going once and hoping that someone will remember you. No matter how you know, how dynamic you might be, it's very rare someone's going to remember you right, you know, 6 months down the road when they need your services. So, I tend to go visit some of those same groups, you know, again and again. If there are people that fortunately before every meeting, they send out what is called a photo list, which has not only the name, but also like a photo, as well as the name and description of what the person does. So, I might check that and go, "Who is it who is who in the list do I want to meet?

16:04 Who might be a good connection for me?" And I'll reach out to those people. And I'll say, "Hey, can we you know, do you want to do a one-on-one?" Another way of being of being a good networker is just being helpful. Is you know, for example, today ProVisors sends out every Monday morning they send out a an email with what I call the business opportunities email. It's basically people are looking for my new referral to for an attorney that might or some expert or whatever. And there was an attorney in there from I think Boston who needed a an elder law attorney in Oklahoma. I happen to know one. I guess we used to a lot of oil we used to a lot of oil and gas work. I finally won the gas owners. So, and we have a great attorney there who we've worked with for years. We still do work with her. So, I suggested to them. I'm not getting anything out of that referral. But, it does you know, put a deposit into the goodwill bank of both attorneys that then I go, "Oh, okay, this is Michael Swick helped me out." So, this is I look at it as not trend You have to look at it being relationship driven and not transactional. And not everything you do am I going to get return on my investment my investment from this person right away. It's I trust that if I help people and I'm of service to other people that whether you want to call it the universe, providence, God, whatever you might want to call it, that I'll get taken care of in the end.

17:37 Great. That was a great class on networking. Appreciate that. The other thing I want to make sure we cover today was that you've added a company another service. Now, this is limited to your local area, but it's interesting one because I think that more and more there's a need for this and I think it crosses over well for anybody who's interested in probate, whether you're a real estate agent or an accountant or attorney, the role of fiduciary is one that's really needed more increasingly more often. And that's something that you stepped into in your local market. Talk a little bit about what drove you to do that and how that's going so far. So, I've been as I say probate adjacent for 25 years. I don't practice law. I have not practiced law since I guess 23 years ago when I had a little overlap of starting with starting the business I have now and closing my law practice. But in my experience of working on all these cases missing air cases, unclaimed property cases, and just reviewing documents. A lot times when we get a case, we have to review probate documents from what was previously administered to figure out who are the heirs and what happened in the case. So, I've touched in some way probably thousands of probate estates over the years and trust administrations. So, not to toot my own horn, but I think I'm quite knowledgeable.

19:07 Oh, toot away. Toot away. That's what we have you here. Toot. I very quite knowledgeable in trust and estates administration. I also have a really good network. So I feel I'm equipped to be a fiduciary, which is basically an executor or trustee for hire. I do not foresee myself, at least as of now, become doing other fiduciary work such as you know, health care power of attorney or guardian. My space, to put it bluntly, is in the post-death world. And there's a real need for it because a lot of times people want or need an outsider to handle the estates. And or the trust. And there are you know, banks or trust companies, but more and more so the those institutions do not want to handle an estate that's less than 10 or 15 million dollars. A lot of people don't have that don't leave that much behind. But they still have the need for somebody. So I really see the need for professionals. And you know, in California, it's a they have a really robust infrastructure already. Professional fiduciaries that's California, as far as I know, is the only state that has requires licensing. And it's a really well-recognized field.

20:35 But independent fiduciary, you know, non-banks, non-trust companies is very not known of outside of California. And so that's why I'm getting into it. So I'm just kind of waiting on some last paperwork to get done. It does tend to be a little more local, at least at first, you know, to get you know, gets get started. So I will be doing this mostly in the Central Florida area. And hopefully, you know, especially with all the elderly people here who are transplants from other places. I think there are really need for it. So, I'm looking forward to helping them.

21:13 I think it's a great move for you and for our industry. Like I said, I have a very good friend. I think you as it were in his podcast as well, Kevin Mein, Yeah. Who years ago, you know, as I was seeing the need for it, he was a very experienced real estate property manager and appraiser. And I said, "But particularly for estates with a lot of real estate, he'd be a great asset. He's also just a good businessman, smart guy." And his business has really taken off in that area and I continued to try to tell people, "If you're looking for a career change, if you're an attorney and the practice of law has gotten kind of dull, you haven't found your path, or an accountant in particular, I think for both those people, there's niches that are available. And as an industry, you know, we have more people aging, we have more assets among the elderly, and it just makes sense to do that. So, talk a little bit about what's the biggest problem? You know, obviously you talk about as an alternative to be the being a bank. Obviously, if you cannot do business with Wells Fargo, don't do business with Wells Fargo. That was That was obvious. I hire you over the meantime. But why wouldn't Why would a family who's in inheriting property or has a trust, why would they need an independent fiduciary rather than do it themselves or have the attorney do it?

22:21 So, I'll give you a perfect example. I have I have a very good friend of mine who unfortunately about 3 years ago his wife, I think it was like right before right after 50th birthday, passed away. And I was, you know, I was talking with my friend about a few months few weeks later. And I said, "You know, let me ask him like, what do you have in terms of an escape plan?" And he says, "Oh, you know, we had we had, you know, wills that everything but I think it was left to each other and then to the kids." At the time, he had his three kids. One was in high school, one was in college, and one was in his early 20s, and was not the most responsible with money. And I said, "And you know, my friend had built up a nice little nest egg in terms of you know, his job. He had a nice retirement package. He had a house. You know, whatever savings he had.

23:15 [cough] And I said if God forbid something happens to you now and your kids are left without parents. And I know it's kind of a very blunt way of putting it, but somebody's got to you got to cut such face. I said are you are you comfortable with your kids all of a sudden having all that money dumped in their laps like that? You think they'd handle it responsibly? And he got this, you know, very scared look. And I And I said you need to And what he did I did not ask him to like but And he might have just had the attorney who's handling it also act as fiduciary. But he definitely would need an outsider. You know, his three kids would have standing and priority to be the executor. But they're not they're not And legally they have the right to. But re- realistically that it would not have been a good idea. His He would need a trust that would in my opinion, you know, pay them out over the course of a number of years.

24:12 Yeah, I think that, you know, people are staying I haven't been involved when a family member in a small way running a trust is like running a business. It's a It can be a full-time job. The reason why people have those businesses cuz it's a job or task or project. And you know, yes, you pay people to do that, but you know, if you had a business to run, you had to hire somebody to run the business or run it yourself. Those are your two choices. And most people just aren't equipped in many cases to handle some sophisticated trust and communication family issues. So, what's the biggest challenge that you see that you that you face that perhaps you help with that perhaps somebody doing on their own might not be able to accomplish?

24:55 Like I said, I think some people are you know, one of the like I said the challenges of people who don't have the capability of handling the Well, we were talking sometimes people are getting six, seven-figure inheritances and they are not equipped to deal with it and know what to do with it responsibly. And you know, it's a terrible waste when they get it and they just you know, they just you know, either spend it all or gets taxed whatever the case might be and next thing you know, they've got nothing to show for it. You know, years ago I had a client who we had found like I said, we did a lot of oil and gas work. We found that he we found a small and gas holdings in rural Texas that the royalties alone that have been piling up were about a quarter million dollars and we found that the owner of the assets had died in the early 70s of a drug overdose and his wife had been pregnant with her only child at the time. So, fast forward 40 plus 40 or so years, we find the son and he is as good old boy as they come. He's living in the trailer in the backwoods of Arkansas.

26:13 Doesn't even have a driver's license and we I had he had to come to we had to go to rural Texas for the hearing so he could present himself and show that he is the heir to this you know, nice big oil holding he's going to get. And we're talking and he says to me, "Okay, so what do I do with it? Like what I do with this?" And I said, "You need an estate planning attorney and you need an accountant and you need someone to manage these assets for you." He says, "Why?" I said, I said, "Because I said, under Texas law and any state's law, oil and gas holdings are considered real a real property just like land. Just like a house. I said, "Under Texas law, if you don't have a will, your wife only gets what's called a wife estate. She only gets to the enjoyment of the royalties for as long as she's alive." I said, "And that's how it He had a stepchild, and I and he had a brother who was he didn't talk to." I said, "A half-brother who was not the son of the deceased." I said, "Basically, if something happens to you and you don't have a will, after your wife goes, say everything goes to that bro- your half-brother that you don't talk to anymore." I said, "Is that what you want?" He said, "No, absolutely not." So, you know, he it's a matter really having a having a team in place to make sure everything is there. And it's not just an estate plan, it's also making sure you have everybody on board of the every everybody, the accountant and financial planner, whoever, everyone on board.

27:46 Yeah, I've been involved in a couple large estates and the fiduciary ends up being kind of the quarterback. And you huddle up with the people a couple different times to make a kind of a game plan that if you sit at your own desk, you wouldn't see it because you know, I'm a real estate agent, I only see you want to sell the property, great. You don't want to sell it, fine. Why are we selling it? Well, this is a complicated tax involvement on this property. And so all of a sudden it changes how you would handle things. And so I think that's why you know, you're obviously well suited, you've worked with these people, you have a pretty deep Rolodex. And I think I think the number one the number one requirement for success with fiduciary from what I've seen is a Rolodex of professionals that you can bring in quickly.

28:24 Absolutely. We're maybe weren't involved in this project, weren't involved in this particular area, but they're masters of this field and you can bring expertise, you know, right away that a individual customer can't do that.

28:34 Yeah, and another key thing is to know what you don't know. And those go hand in hand with having that Rolodex. And by the way, we are seriously dating ourselves by using the term Rolodex.

28:44 What do young people say instead of the word Rolodex? What's the what's the popular term? I don't know. I think contacts, like you know your phone contacts. Really? Your phone contacts, oh my gosh.

28:53 Yeah. But anyways, no like I know full well, yes I am licensed as an attorney. And legally speaking, would if I am retained as a as a fiduciary, I could also handle the legal work. But I also know that would be very stupid of me to do because I'm not abreast I don't keep stay abreast of all of the nuances of administration law and you know, I also have an accountant. I and I know you know, and had to have a Realtor® and to have a financial planner. But I'm a financial planner I would need because if I'm going to be managing the finances, you know, investing it, I would need to be a CFP. And even if I was a CFP, it relieves me of any liab- the liability. If something goes, you know, something goes sideways on the on the financing or the market crashes, I can say, I entrusted this to a CFP who handled things as best as possible. And you know, in this way it does protect me. So, but also protects the state. You know, you bring it, you know, we don't we live in an age of specialization. And it's people need to realize that you see what I mean? Like could I list a house, you know, that I'm handling a list a house and sell it? Yeah, I could. But I would never do it as well as you would, Bill. You know, you or whoever you know, on your team knows how to market it, how to take really good pictures, how to negotiate, how to how to price it. Those are all things I don't I don't know. And just better to you know, sleep at night and it's worth it to pay a professional do things right.

30:39 Yeah, I always find that the cost of the best in the field isn't much more than the cost for average, but the result is a lot better. Most When the statistics I refer to regularly in LA County at least is like in probate 9% of probate cases are handled by an attorney who's done one or less in the last year.

30:58 Which means 10% done by the people who really do them regularly. 9% done by people don't know what they're doing. And so they're doing it and you know, average is a pretty low bar in some fields. But to get somebody who's really the best at something and Michael you my opinion the best on the inheritance research and discovery and the fact that you would help families as a fiduciary to me seems like a natural extension. Now I've gone on longer than we planned on, so forgive me. Look, Michael's been our I guess on program several times. He's a great asset particularly if you're looking for who owns a property. And particularly in California, it's a great opportunity to help get a property sold, make some money as well. Reach out to Michael Zwick. His contact information we'll put down below. Where's the spot? There we go. [phone number]. Assets-international.com is the website. But really if you want to find Michael and you want also at the same time want to learn how to use LinkedIn as a premier business networking tool. He is a LinkedIn master posting, engaging, getting engagement. I would say you should go there just to up your LinkedIn game if nothing else. Michael's there for a free assessment.

32:12 Well thank you for the kind words. I like to think I like to think but then I put a post up this morning and got like a 200 views. So but I like to blame that on the algorithm which is which is a fickle beast.

32:26 It is a fickle beast, but looks to me like you ride that fickle beast successfully more than most. Any again, anybody just talking to Michael is like a free lesson in how to use LinkedIn. Once you're in, you're in with him and you're going to you're going to have a relationship with him whether you like it or not, and I can promise you'll like it. I enjoyed myself. Michael, thank you for generosity of your time here today. Thank you for all your tips along the way and through LinkedIn, and I wish you continued success and then success in your new endeavors as well.

32:51 Thank you. A pleasure to be here. I appreciate it. And friends, this is Probate Weekly. We get together every week, usually with a probate attorney, though in this case a vendor, Inheritance Investigation, very important piece, as well as a fiduciary and to learn a little bit more about how to work with attorneys, how to work with a business. Hope you enjoyed it. Please give me your feedback. Like, subscribe, send me a note if I can help in any way at Bill Gross Probate on social media. As always, make today your best day ever. Thanks so much.