Pets Are Part of Your Estate, with Rev. Kaleel Sakakeeny

0:01 Welcome to the Executorium podcast. I'm your host, Bill Gross, at Bill Gross Probate on social media. We get together every week with new experts and vendors to help executors through the process of dealing with the states that they're responsible for, trust, probate, whatever type of state that they're dealing with. Normally, we have a vendor we deal with. And today, I'm really lucky to have Reverend Kaleel Sakakeeny, who deals with animal grief. And we're going to talk a little bit about what that means. It's a little more expensive than you'd first meet. re Reverend Kaleel Sakakeeny, welcome to our podcast. Thanks, Bill. Pleasure to be here. Thanks for asking me. So, first off, I think what is animal grief? What's the process that people need help in this area for? Yeah, I think we've underestimated the power of the animal and human connection. we found over the last several years that this relationship has changed. usually put the dog in the backyard and dog house put the cat outside then the dog came into the house the cat came into the house then came into the bed and they became part of the family in fact there's a recent study by the ASPCA I think it was that said that people when describing their family circle giving a graphic sense of who the family was more often than not they put the pet at the center of the family circle more than the Rolls-Royce or the Hyunda or more than the jewelry or whatever The pet was at the center of the family and that meant that there was an intense emotional reaction and connection with the animal and the human. It became part of the family. And when that dissolves when that pet dies there's a profound sense of grief a loss of normaly the end of a kind of memory train and relationship and it rears his head in the settlement of estates to go back to your point because it's the animal occupies a kind of midway point.

1:58 The law considers a property like a toaster or a car or whatever, but it's not. It's a fundamental emotional or spiritual part of the family. So whether the pet dies and there's this profound loss which triggers all other kinds of losses or the settling in a state, it becomes a bone of contention which people underestimated or never even thought of. Yeah. Well, the never even thought of part is is one aspect we'll talk about in just a second. But the underestimate I'll admit that to be guilty of that. My wife and I just I should say my wife and daughter got a dog about 13 years ago and unfortunately it passed just about a year ago. Oh. And I'm not a dog person. I only did it to be a good husband and a good father. I had no, you know, I had responsibilities, didn't really want, but I have to say I was surprised and I had no idea about the deep emotional impact that its passing had in particular on my wife and my daughter, but and my wife. It I don't want to say it was like a member of the family, but it's the closest next thing. and so emotionally there's a lot to deal with. Imagine it is a member of the family and you'd be surprised what gets triggered is that I'll I'll deal with someone who's lost a pet and before you know it they'll say, "Well, I grieved more for the pet than did my when my mother passed." Yeah. Well, why is that? Because our relationship with humans when they it's complex. The person in the past, we may have had arguments with, may have been betrayals, denials, criticism, judgments. That doesn't happen between a person and a pet. There's no criticism. there's no judgment. So that is a pure kind of love and maybe the only pure kind of love they've ever met. And when that dies, you know, our hearts are broken. And the weird part is most people turn to a therapist because the grief is so profound, but the therapist just wants to fix you, but there's nothing to fix.

3:53 Nothing's broken. And there's no pill for a broken heart. And that's where we come in. You know, the other difference I think is with humans like when my mother passed you know I had yeah I called her at least once a week and I saw her every two three weeks. you know we had a good relationship but I only saw her you know every two three weeks I only talked to her once a week. The dog every time I walk in the kitchen the dog was there you know every single day three four five times a day and interaction with the dog. And so the trigger, and again, I'd have even an emotional relationship with a dog, but the trigger is more regular, right? Whereas a parent, you might not think about once a month or two until something comes up. But with a pet in your house, you're triggered all the time. The dog, you find a dog toy, you find a this and a dog scratch something. It's going to be a constant trigger. So imagine that you really need to work through that grief or else it's going to work through you, I think, is is how grief works. Exactly right. It is exactly I mean if people feel ashamed sometimes they'll say how long should I grieve or it's only people will say it's only a cat or only a dog but then they're disenfranchising your grief. People just now are starting to get that the loss of a pet is equal to the loss of a human being for many of us in terms of its emotional impact and a and the path it takes us down in terms of feeling bereff lost confused. the old order has changed and we've lost a companion. We've lost an animal companion in our lives, a companion. I think the thing you hit on that that I appreciate is that you have to kind of accept what is real, right? When people are in pain, whether it's appropriate or not by our judgment is irrelevant. The fact they're in pain and that pain has to be dealt with. I always feel like it's like a like a infection on your skin. You got to get the pus out or the bad stuff out of the skin. And that's the pain, that's the emotion, that's the grief. And you can deny it being there, but it's still there. And I'm religious, too. We have a very structured process for our grief that forces us to at least address

5:56 It at a very deep level. I know that when I wasn't before I was religious, my father passed, I go through that process. And I don't know that I ever properly fully grieved. And when my mother passed, I followed that procedure much more precisely. And as a result, at least had the opportunity to deal with it. So talk a little bit. People don't want to spend the time on grieving. They want to kind of rush the process. They want to move on with their lives. But really, you can't move on if that poison's really in your emotional being. Right. Well, we never we always say, let's not talk about moving on. Let's talk about moving forward. And you can only move forward when you're heal. And grief is a non-judgment zone. And until recently, as I said, pet grief hasn't been considered a legitimate or authentic kind of grief. But yes, grief needs to unravel. And it unravels in its own time. There's no timetable for it. So, and really, you are on a grief journey. And that's where therapy, as I said before, a mental health treatment kind of breaks down because they want to return you to normal, get you ready, get you back to where you were so you can be a productive member of society. But we are a grief illiterate society and there's no normal to return to. It's gone. So the grief you have to build a whole new reality. Excuse me also the changes just in my lifetime that whereas families were more together the elders closer to the children geographically physically now we've seem to have distributed so that elder older people are more on their own more lonely and more and more their only companionship or little small part of companionship are their pets I know the story just you know hit recently about Gene Hackman and how he had dogs in the house right he had no humans no human visit them for a week, right? I mean, think about what that's saying to about a guy who was one of the most famous actors in my lifetime. Not one human came to his door for a week. Yet, they had pets in the house. And that tells

7:59 You, I think, the central role of pets in many people's emotional being, which is the pets might be the only people they interact with on a regular b the only things they interact with on a regular basis. Yeah. And they also are central to their lives. They give them they give them meaning. They give their lives meaning. when that pet is gone. Well, again, back to the idea of what also hurts is the divorce situation when that occurs be which is another kind of death and another kind of grief because the animal has an emotional connection to us and us to them. But the law considers the animal just property like a toaster or like a car. And so there's when the time comes for couple to split or the estate to be dissolved, nobody knows what to do because there's a conflict between the legal interpretation and the emotional reality. Although some countries like New Zealand are flirting with the idea of creating a personhood for the animal that its feelings need to be considered and the feelings of a husband or wife or partner, whatever the case may be, have to be considered. And that's really central and that that comes up. I've treated worked with so many people for whom that's a major issue. One of the things that has been overlooked and some of the estate planning attorneys I work with make a point of catching is the handling of pets in an estate plan, right? That it's one thing it's one thing to take care of a pet, another thing to take care of it when you're not around. talk a little bit about what you've seen that have been best practices for people who've been able to know that their pets are taken care of past their lifetime. Well, a lot of people work their pets into their wills and we've done that too and we have made an addendum to our will stating that there are a couple of people with whom our dog gets along beautifully and we've asked a set aside financially and we've included that set aside for this particular person in the event that we pass together or whatever this the dog

10:04 Will be taken care of and that's that's critical because they are a living being and have been a very important part of your life and to take a dog to a shelter after having lived with you for four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10 years, that is a profound pain and a terrible betrayal. So, we need to think in terms of the humanness or the spiritual nature of the animal human connection and act accordingly. But unfortunately, it's like, you know, who bought the dog, whose name is on the receipt, that's the person who gets the dog in terms of a conflict, right? You know, I again, I'm not really a dog person at all, but if I was an executor or an estate, you know, for a parent or somebody and they had an animal to deal with, I wouldn't take it to my house. I don't think would want to. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to have to take it to the to the pound knowing what's going to happen with it. really is a very difficult situation that should be addressed and I think is often people don't understand how easy it is to address that by adding it to the world at the time. you know another question that pops out obviously when I deal with you is your title is reverend explain a little bit about your background and then how that plays into your work. Yeah, I when I lost an animal, I was really plunged into very deep despair and I had no place to turn because every time I turned, people weren't able to grasp the depth of the pain and the loss because as I said, we are a grief illiterate society and the idea of a dog or a cat having that much or a bunny or a bird or a horse having that much effect in our emotions was still strange. So I looked around for some help and I couldn't find it only to find a theological institute, one of the two in the country maybe that offered a program in animal chaplaincy and you took that program and you studied for a long time and then endowed you with or introduced you to spiritual relationships between you and the animal and you committed yourself therefore to serving

12:07 Animals and people in distress. as other animal chaplain work in shelters. I happen to work with people who have lost their pets. And then I became an ordained minister, ordained pastor because what I saw was people seeking spiritual counseling, pastoral counseling in addition to working with the loss of an animal and that kind of grief. So it enables me to talk in spiritual language without having to talk in religious language. So we can talk about that. Yeah. And it seems to me like once you get the person open up a little bit perhaps about the pet, they can open up more about the other aspects of the grief or the spiritual challenges they're facing. So it seems to me like you're using this as I want to say a stepping stone. That sounds manipulative but maybe as an opening as a opener as an odurve to get them to start the process because I know it's people resist grieving. but having been through that myself, it's so important to go through. It takes seconds, just literally seconds to talk to a person who comes to me to talk about the death of their bunny or their bird or whatever. And within seconds, they're saying things like, "Well, my mom died or my dad died or my, you know, my brother." And it's just a connection. It's like, whoa. And you're absolutely right. The death of a pet is a portal, a way into unresolved losses of the past which if not resolved we carry forward and affect us emotionally, self-confidence wise. We have no idea because all trauma has grief inside of it. And many people that are traumatized have this profound grief or many people who are lost a friend, lost a marriage, lost a job are grieving. and we're grieving now. So the whole co thing was a study in gigantic grief which is when my phone never stopped ringing. you know, my best friend, passed when I was in college, 1978. So that's going to be what, eight,

14:10 Seven, 20, 47 years ago, he passed. And last night, my wife was watching a movie, Ordinary People, that to this day triggers me because of the death of this brother who was like my brother when he passed in high school that physically I feel it just in talking to you, I feel because I never really had a chance to grieve. I didn't know I had no process. because I had no community at that stage in my life. I was separate from my family. All I did was drink. I didn't know what else to do. And so that's just way stuff in the pain that for the rest of my life has been coming out a little time. And so these are things that are really important. I want to just acknowledge if you're having pain, if you have unresolved issues regarding somebody who passed, it's something worth pursuing to discuss, to explore, to talk to somebody who's experiencing these areas. I'm not experienced to help other people, but I am experienced to point them in the right direction. And Reverend Sakakeeny, I appreciate you taking time today. Here. We want to for anybody who's interested in getting in touch with him specifically animal talks and here's his email [email address]. His phone number as well as the website is animaltalksinc.com. so if you're interested in getting more information, that is the best place the best place to do that. And then just you know want to for those who are watching again reminder that this is the Executorium podcast and this is a website that's designed for executors of estates as well as vendors that serve them. and we continue the conversation in our Facebook group. You have questions or referrals you can go there as well. Executorium is e x cu t o r i m and it's a website designed for executors. It has four basic tiles of resources. It has a directory of providers. It has a directory of government resources where you can get forms and such as well as two good tiles on articles and learning information. If you go to the directory of estate services and hit browse, it'll ask you to prompt your county. If you put in SEA County, Massachusetts, will pop up will be under I lost my spot there. Where was it?

16:08 Grief support grief loss counseling which is our guest today. It has their contact information. But what you can know is these are people who are committed to helping executors like you deal with the process of an estate whether it be the physical property, the financial property, the legal property or in this case the emotional baggage, emotional issues that come along with that as well. So again Reverend Sakakeeny, thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate your time. Look forward to seeing you soon. Again, the rest of you, my pleasure. And for the rest of you, again, this is the Executorium podcast. We get together every week with more content. If you like it, please like it, subscribe, or put comments. If I can help any way, please reach out at Bill Gross Probate. As always, make today your best day ever. Thanks so much. That's