Got Stuff? Artifcts Is Here to Help, with Heather Nickerson and Ellen Goodwin

0:00 We are welcome to the Executorium Podcast. I'm your host, Bill Gross. And unusually, we have two people here just because there's so much to learn about artifacts. So, one person couldn't do it on her own. That's not really true. I think Ellen could, but it's more fun with two. Looks like today have Ellen Goodwin and Heather Nickerson of Artifcts without the second a I've learned in my typing here. You have stuff. What do you do with it? Where do you start? so many different providers of different pieces of the puzzle and Artifcts offers a great kind of starting point. So, Ellen and Heather, if you guys want to give us an idea where did artifacts come from, how you guys start that business. Sure. Great. Thank you, Bill. I can share a bit about our founding story. So, for us, the idea came after I lost my mother and she over seven years ago passed away completely unexpectedly. And as the eldest and only girl, my two brothers said, "Good luck with that. Send us the check and don't toss out anything important." Now, I want to reiterate, my mother had an estate plan. And in that estate plan, I was the executor and that is how we started thinking about artifacts. It was a very big pain point and a lot of stuff as we call it, scratching your own itch.

1:20 Definitely. Yes. So, what was the problem that you saw that caused you to found this? I mean, I know cuz I'm a professional and I have customers all the time who inherit a house full of stuff. There's five heirs. and two of them are on good terms and two are not. So, you just know there's a fight brewing, right? They're actually practicing. They're in the gym getting ready to fight over they don't even know what yet. They're going to fight over something. right. So, what was it in particular the problem that you attempt to solve or seek to solve here? Well, in our situation, I was very fortunate. My brothers and I all got along, but the burden of going through the estate fell on me. And so, my mother, she had in her estate plan, she detailed the accounts, property, you name it. But on page 23, all other tangible assets were to be divided equally among myself and my brothers, which when you think about how much stuff can fit into the average American home, that's a lot of stuff. So, I was at the time running and growing a private security company in Washington DC and having to commute every weekend back to Cape Cod, Massachusetts to sort through an entire house full of stuff. And the real pain point was the stuff can't talk. The stuff couldn't say, "Hey, this is a family heirloom. Mom wanted her only granddaughter to have this." Or the stuff couldn't say, "Hey, mom bought this at an antique shop." She really didn't care much about it other than she thought it was kind of cute.

2:46 You can donate or sell it. It became this really tough process of having to make these decisions while dealing with the grief of losing our mother. And it also became at the end just tedious. What do you do with the stuff? We would have loved to have had guidance from our mother like have her had filled out that tangible asset memorandum because we were so afraid to let go of stuff for fear we're losing the family history. the stories even value. So that for us was really the big pain point and we thought that if we're dealing with this and on the whole you know like my mom was prepared she unlike most Americans had an estate plan but she didn't deal with the actual stuff in the room and that's what led us to really go into Artifcts and I think Ellen can share a lot more on how we started with the estate planning pain point but over time we've heard so many other pain points relating to stuff that it's really it's evolved over the You know, I feel that same pain in that as a kid, my mother her mother passed when she was young and she had a falling out with her sister and with her with her father who remarried to a step monster in her eyes and over Lusters, right? that that that the new wife kept this item that was her mother's and rightfully my mother as the oldest sister and her younger sister agreed with her rightfully hers and my mother had a family and three kids and we had formal meals and one of the lusters because they were important I'll never forget my when they finally made peace my grandfather years later he came my mother's criteria was if you're going to come to the house and meet the grandkids you need to bring the lusters and I can't wait to see these things what are they must be like the crown jewels of England And they were just these crystal little decorative pieces that if you were at a garage sale, you would maybe buy for five bucks or not, but became so important because they represented my mother the lost connection to her mother who died when she was young in her case.

4:47 And I think that's one of the beautiful things that we learn every day at Artifcts. It's the unexpected and that human connection, right? One of my favorite stories is this woman who was downsizing ultimately into assisted living and her three adult sons, all in their 50s, are helping her to downsize. No. All they're doing is putting everything into the donation pile and she's just as quickly pulling everything back out and included in that were these three brass trays. And the sons had just assumed they're like from Target or Pier 1 or, you know, something like that. And she's like, "No. I was in Kathmandu and I bought these trays in a marketplace and I dropped them and made a ruckus because a snake jumped out at me. But don't worry, I killed the snake. I have the snake skin. Do you want to see it?" You know, so suddenly their mom's a badass. And all three sons took one of the trays home because it had a great story and this connection to their mom and this is what's achievable when we have, you know, what we say Artifcts is we're trying to transform our relationships to stuff and to each other simultaneously. Take another look at it. Be good with letting things go. Give it to people now. The whole Swedish death cleaning thing, right? This trend is all about what do I have? What am I doing with it? Is it providing any use to me? No. Okay, let me let go of it. And when we work with people one-on-one, even though it's optional when you create an artifact, an artifact is a collection of photo, video, and audio, right? So, I can say, "Here's mom's tray. Here's her telling the story about it. It's hilarious." And guess what? in the artifact I can say here's what I want to have happen to it in the future and this way we can prepare our loved ones it's a discussion we all need to have but this is part of what we're doing is saying and what will you do with it next now that we know what it what it means to you one of the challenges is one of the great books I read in the last 10 years I'm a big reader is the life-changing magic of tidying up right she's Japanese and Japanese by nature very precise and clean lines and minimalists I think as a general as a general rule and it's a fantastic book and I and I'm you know took it to

6:51 Heart and I've been implementing those procedures and making prog and enjoying a much more minimal experience. The problem is when you're older it's work right physically to go through it physically get on the ground and get stuff out physically to carry it out physically to donate it or to or to take it to the trash. All these are things that as you get older and I think sometimes people speak about their family members as hoarders they don't understand no it's not the mom is a hoarder it's that mom was in such pain she's walking around with a walker for her to do the normal process of removing items she doesn't need is difficult and as becomes a lower priority go they have to go to the doctor they have to get their medicines they have it you know getting old has other obligations and so I think we do sense of the fact that hidden amongst the junk and hidden amongst the things that should be thrown out and hid amongst the trash literally are these things that are valuable to the family perhaps and mom would think they're valuable and the kids would think they're valuable and so that the process doing ahead time is certainly better than the alternative so you guys as I look at your service tell me if I'm wrong it looks to me like you're kind of a starting point I have a house with a bunch of stuff what I do I mean I work I've interviewed on this podcast and others a lot of vendors that do different piece of the puzzle photography and storing items and bidding on which items one and such, but sounds to me like you guys really work as the kind of the point position on that and then hand off to other vendors or make them available. So, what does that process look like? Somebody I literally have a client, I'm refer to you, inherits a house, a bunch of stuff in it, some valuable, a lot of junk as well. what do I do? and they call you. Walk me through the process of what it looks like to be a customer through artifacts. Happy to.

8:33 You know, there's two types of customers. There's the DIYers and there's the people that are going to call in the pros, right? So, for the DIYers, they can go online, they can get a membership with Artifcts. we have a free one. Try out try it out for free. I always encourage that with any product. Try it where you work, too. Do you love working on mobile? You do it on mobile. You like working on your tablet, start there. so they can start for free and they can basically, we have all these checklists that you can download for free on our website to inspire you and get you started. that it's literally going room by room and you start creating Artifcts for each of the items that mean something to you. And again, we really encourage people to figure out what are we going to do that in the future. Indicate that because guess here's what happens. Brand new feature from us. You can download a up next report. And what this is, it will download all of your artifacts line by line by category. These are the things I want to sell in a checklist. These are the things I want to bequeath in a checklist. Here are the things, right? so that we can actually physically work through those in our homes. Okay, so my first step is I'm going to create those artifacts. My second step is I'm going to download that report and start actually figuring out how I'm going to get these things donated or sold or whatever it is. Now, for the folks that are like, "No, for any reason I need a pro in my life, and we absolutely understand." We actually work with professionals. We have a page on our website called Allies and Stuff. These are the move managers, the home organizers, the professional photo organizers. They will come into your home literally help you with the physical items. And a lot of these allies, that's the page right there, they also are Artifcts professionals.

10:06 They will provide artifacting services. And the reason is they know it's not simple to let go of things. You know, I talk a lot about this red coat of my mother's. She's had it for 45 years and never worn it, right? It's the tough stuff of life. It's memories and you just have a hard time letting go. So, a lot of these pros will artifact as a service to help you as you start processing, decluttering, organizing, and figuring out where everything goes next. so, you can go on to our website. We have a lot of resources there where we can refer you out to folks who will help you. Just that last week, we had a move management company looking for someone to help them. They knew artifacts. but that to help them digitize a client's photos and VHS tapes. Fabulous. We referred them to the photo managers. They found someone local. That's that's that's a that's a love match there. so that's that's how it works. Go online, try us free or call on one of the pros and they can help you along as well. Fantastic. So just some quick housekeeping on can this is the Executorium Podcast where we get together and help u oops there. help people who are executors of estates, probate, trust estates, who are like Ellen described herself, like I find myself in a position are overwhelmed with the task of what do I do? You know, mom, dad passed, I'm executor, sounds great. I'm going to inherit stuff that sounds great, but I also inherited a lot of work and where do I start? So, this Executorium Podcast and you continue the conversation in our Facebook group. If you go to the Executorium website, what you'll see is there's a fantastic resource for executors and there's four key squares.

11:43 One is the directory of service providers, one's director of government resources for executors and there's some great learning material articles and other learning that you can help to understand the process. If you go to the directory and if you happen to pick from Travis County, Texas, and put show county among others, you will get under legacy management artifacts. Now, the truth is they're a lot more than that and I'll put their contact information in there. But the resource of Executorium is fantastic as a way to find other local providers and my hope is that it also would encourage we want to encourage Artifcts as they find local providers to get them to participate in the Executorium process and help us build that out. Our guest today is Artifcts with one A, not two. So, dropped the second A and it took me a couple times and I typed it myself. And they are a kind of what I think of the way I think of them is kind of the central point of I got a bunch of stuff. What do I do? And there's different strategies, different procedures, different vendors you need. And Ellen and Heather are I don't know what are your respective roles in this? What's your titles effect? I don't want to give anybody a promotion. The co-founders. Heather is our CEO and I'm the chief solutions officer. So if you don't like how product works, come call my call my number. Okay. Well, I don't want to give it gave me a promotion I'm entitled to. So okay, good. So, co-founders, that's great to know. And how long has Artifcts been around? We had our third birthday in August. Wow.

13:04 We celebrated with our second patent. we're also a part of the AARP AgeTech Collaborative and MassChallenge. So, we're we're out and about and we do also do a lot of work in dementia and care working with caregivers to those with dementia. We're we're doing a brain health study right now with UMass Chan Medical School. So, you can find us in a lot of areas of life where we're dealing with the stuff and the memories, too. I think one of the things that and I'm just a real estate broker selling the house, but I also coordinate the legal side with probate attorneys and work with them and litigation and such, but I think like you, it always bleeds over in about eight other areas, right? Oftentimes I have customers who have a problem with stuff. That's where you guys come in. Other I have other customers who have issues with capacity and you know, does mom have capacity or does she need help? Does she need medical help? associate, you know, legal help in those areas. And so these kind of things all bleed over. So tell me there's a fine line between getting off track. You have a business to run. and I think sometimes, you know, as a business person, my business priority also is to my other customers, right? If I if I if I've gone out of business, I'm not serving the people I went to. So there's a fine line between too much and then also being available when your customer needs help. How do you personally guys, how do you manage that line between wanting to solve every problem for a customer and realizing you only have certain amount of resources available?

14:26 Yeah. that's a great question, Bill. So, we've taken approach of we've built this really fun, simple to use technology platform. That's what Artifcts is. It's technology. It's a tool. It helps you get stuff done. But we then built an entire ecosystem around it. So, in addition to the Artifcts professionals and service providers, Ellen mentioned earlier, we also have monthly, we call them coffee chats, but they're office hours. Stop in, talk with us. we have the ability, we do it all virtually since we have members across the US, 50 states and 14 countries and growing. So, we hold these monthly virtual dropins. We also built a really robust YouTube channel and we have dozens and dozens of we call them already tips but they're short videos that are typically between two three four minutes long and they walk you through each of the key features everything from our custom QR codes to our creating custom tags the in the future field Ellen noted. So we have lots of ways where although we are a very lean team we do and the fact that we don't have a physical presence outside of Washington DC or Austin Texas we have these resources that are available to folks all over the US and around the world and we see tremendous engagement with people as we release new features new videos and then we have those monthly coffee chats. Well fantastic. Now, if someone want to join into that, the coffee the dropin meetings, how would one access that? So, we promote our coffee talks through social media as well as our weekly newsletter. It goes out every Wednesday and so people can check it out there and grab a link and join. It can stay for five minutes or for the full hour just like when they go see a professor, you know. Got it. So, sign up for the newsletter when you go onto the website and then you will be able to and that I see that's right down here under what for art. I like you guys are very much on brand with the word here.

16:26 We sure try. I'm gonna go ahead and do it myself right now just because I can. It's my podcast. I can do that. How about that? That's great. You sure can. Because I can. You know, Bill, too, I want to go back to something you said because I think it's really important for your listeners. We have an article coming out soon that's about hoarding disorder. We hear all the time from people who say, "I think my loved one is a hoarder." Meaning they have hoarding disorder. They don't actually mean it. They just mean, "It's a lot of stuff and I don't want to deal with it." Right? That's what they're communicating and that's something, you know, you talked about the physical nature of stuff and it's real. We have to dust it, move it, store it. All of that is a physical burden. But more than that, what we find is the isolation component. You meet with people who as they get older and loved ones and peers are passing away. Their children aren't living near them if they have them, maybe they're solo agers, they become intrinsically more attached to the stuff and the memories that this stuff holds. And so artifacting becomes an intervention in that case where they can use that as a tool to help them recognize what things mean to them and let go and rehome things eventually. So, I just want to speak to those people who really there is a legitimate concern there. and there are a lot of resources and we're going to share those in an upcoming article because it's something that we hear all the time.

17:52 Well, I also find it I mean I don't mean to get too spiritual but for people who you mentioned being alone and that's the common denominator I find that you think like in my case I'm I'm married I have a wife now you know hopefully we live together a long time but I imagine if one of us passes that changes the dynamic of the house right I don't have to keep things as clean if she's not around or vice versa or a certain area as decluttered and my daughter is married and has two we have two young grandkids is nearby is by all the time and we're in a very active community where people, you know, come by. So, the house has to be kind of kept in order. But I can imagine if you're on your own, you know, okay, I'll put the pile of newspapers there or I'll put the old, you know, I'm going to recycle all these bags. I'll just start a pile here. I have clothes I should get rid of. I'll put a pile here and take them out someday. Well, if nobody's coming to your house, you don't have to kind of keep it clean. And the common component I find is that these people are living very lonely lives. And I think there now I'm not taking on that problem, but you know, one at a time maybe. it just seems that this is this is a symptom of a problem in our society and you guys are helping it. And I think the root cause is like you say the intervention, but some of that intervention has to end up being you need to get integrated with other people. You need human beings in your life otherwise you're just stuff too, right? What's the difference between you and the bags and the and the trash? Not much if you're not acting as a human being. 100%. We couldn't agree more.

19:13 It's it's the reality and it's something, you know, the state of Texas gave us an award for helping people stay connected as they age. And it's because it makes it so easy. Stories connect us, right? And it's funny when you share one, it sparks the idea in someone else and suddenly it's a whole new world that you're stepping into and it's lowering those barriers and we love to see that. Yeah. You know, I heard the news, my wife's been following the news story about Gene Hackman's passing away. I don't know if you guys follow. Yes. And it's sad. Hard to believe somebody with that much resource, you know. the caregivers need caregivers. I mean, well, I was going to say, yeah, nobody came to his house. He laid there apparently or she laid there dead apparently for like a week or something and he has dementia. Nobody's going to see him every day. How could that be, doesn't he? He has kids. He has grandkids. He had he has fans. Like, who wouldn't if you live in an hour, who wouldn't like have free coffee with Gene Hackman just tell a story about even at 95 and see now, he can tell a story for five minutes. Absolutely. It just it just speaks to a bigger problem that as we think about aging, the strategy has to include who else is going to be around me otherwise my life's going to deteriorate. Who am I living for? Who am I living with? and I think it's such an important part having a community where you're active and involved is so important. We all need a village. It's it's absolutely the case. And you see these on movies or TVs like these adult facilities and my mother was in one and they kind of poo the activities but they're trying to generate a sense of community there. And imagine if you lived in a in a facility like that and every there was your best friend.

20:44 Imagine you're playing cards every day with people you like as opposed to I don't want to play cards. You know it just that part is okay. I'm getting off on a soap box here. I'm sorry. So okay, artifacts. you have stuff and not only that they can help you if you're at that point where you have stuff or mom or dad had stuff they can help you find other resources. last question I guess just before we sign off because it's always nice something positive. You guys have built a really you know fascinating business you've been business three years which is amazing milestone to achieve. You've worked with so many good companies. I it just surprises me the depth of what you guys have been able to do in a three-year period. you what are one or two tips that you would give an entrepreneur in this or related space building their own business you've you've obviously you win some you lose some I'm sure you had some setbacks some problems you've overcome them you're here today what are one or two tips you would give somebody who's trying to build a similar not in your space but similar kind of entrepreneurial business enterprise I would say don't be shy about reaching out you never know where a conversation's going to take you know even you know with the like our conversation podcast webinars But don't don't try to build your company, your startup in, you know, a very shallow pool. Reach out to others around you, fellow entrepreneurs, potential partners. Maybe they won't partner with you right away because you just started, but you know, two years in, three years in, it's a very different conversation.

22:09 So, don't be shy. Reach out, make friends. look for partners and look for champions, too. people that get really excited about what you're doing and look for ways to work with you and bring that positive energy day in day out. Wow, that was great. Okay, well Heather, that's why you're a CEO. Okay, Ellen, your turn. What's one tip you would give somebody who is kind of battling to build their business? It's frustrating. They have a setback. The one account they thought they had fell apart. What's something you would say looking back on three years or the time you've been involved with Artifcts, would be a tip for somebody trying to build a similar entrepreneurial business? I think that I would tell people, it sounds cliche, authenticity. You have to be you. You cannot build and sustain a business if you are not living the truth of your mission. And what you can and can't do. You have to be able to say that is not what I'm going to do. You can't have this FOMO, right? and I think that when you see people try to be everything to everyone and they have a really cloudy mission, it's hard to serve your core your core clients, your core partners. So, I think that being authentic is overused as a concept, but I'm going to use it here because I don't know how else to do this business. and it builds the trust that Heather spoke to that you have to have with your partners and allies.

23:27 You can't do it otherwise. I think also being authentic. you're going to do it. If you're not authentic, you're not going to enjoy it and it's not pleasant. Versus you know, people ask me how long does this podcast go? As long as I'm interested, I'm interested. I wrap it up. I enjoy this. Yeah, we would have been gone 10 minutes ago if I would if I didn't enjoy talking to you guys. You guys are a lot of fun and very informative. I think more importantly, okay, I lied. Last question for each then. Now, let's go back to the executor. You obviously deal with a lot of people who go through this process who are thrust into this, maybe planning ahead of time, maybe not planning ahead of time. What's one tip that you would give an executor? You've seen some who are successful. You've seen some who overwhelmed and falls apart, ends up in litigation, whatever bad things are. What's one tip you give an executor to help them besides go to artifcts.com? One a not two. Besides that, what's one tip you would give a executor to help them be successful in managing the tasks in front of them? We'll start with Heather. I would say if you're an executor, do not shy away from the tough conversations. And these can start even before your loved one passes away. If you know you're being named an executor, have a conversation with that person. What do you want to happen, too? And list every scenario, every question you have. Talk about the tough stuff. And don't just think, "Oh, we'll get to it one day. We'll have plenty of time." Like, don't put off tomorrow what you can do today as an executor. And if you're an executor and you either find out, surprise, this is I'm it or it's after the loved one has passed, don't shy away from the tough conversations with the other like the other heirs, the people you're working with. Don't try to avoid a conversation or question because you're afraid of conflict because I can guarantee you that conflict is not going anywhere and the longer you wait likely the tougher it's going to be. So again, if you're an executor, having that open communication, constant communication, I think is really critical for doing your job as executor well. Wow. Ellen, that sounds authentic, Heather, doesn't it? Have the tough conversation. I don't

25:29 Know. I've only known her for like 10 20 minutes here, but that just feels real that that I think there's a strength to her obviously comes across and that would be your focus. Okay, Ellen, what's your tip for the executor who needs to be successful? you know, I think that there are certain roles and obligations as an executor you cannot pass off to anyone else, but too often the executors I meet think that they're they're literally doing it alone. and I feel awful for them because it's another job. and I think that there has to be this moment of reality where you're like, what can I delegate legally and doing it because I do think that even in the best case scenarios, this process is more than you expect it to be. And you're also dealing with some level of grief if you're not, you know, if you're a family or friend kind of executor, you're dealing with grief in this process as well. And so it's just a lot. and so my biggest tip from what I've seen in practice, delegate. find those moments of delegation so it doesn't consume you. Wow. Good tips from both of you. Okay. So, vote which tip you like better. Heather, have the tough conversations. Don't don't back off of those. And Ellen, which is delegate. I like both of them. personally, but tell me which one you like best. vote down below. I'm just kidding. We don't really do that, but we can. I think it'd be fun to do it. Just I'm just not at that level as a podcaster yet. So, we work on that.

26:53 Okay. Look, Heather and Ellen, co-founders of Artifcts with one upfront. Again, we'll put the thing in there. So, hopefully you don't type over it as many times as I do to figure out you got the wrong spot. really appreciate having you. Appreciate the service you provide to executors and appreciate you being involved with the Executorium podcast and Executorium Directory. Thank you so much for your time today and thank you so much for your service. Our pleasure. Thank you. You will. And for the rest of you, this Executorium podcast, we get together every week to introduce you to new vendors who can help you be more effective in your job as the executor of an estate. Oops, lost my spot there. There we go. and if you want to continue the conversation, you go to Facebook and ask questions, look for referrals, but again, this is Executorium podcast. If you like this, please like, subscribe, and we love to continue to work together to help you be successful. We have other vendors as well. go to Executorium.com is the website. Executorium.com and there's four squares there. There's a directory of estates directory of service providers which is a national sorted by county directory of government resources where to find the forms necessary for your state in your county. It's a fantastic resource and then the articles and learning if you want to learn more about it or if you're a professional and looking for content to help you build your business is a great resource. I encourage real estate agents and other vendors to use this as you try to build out your own as you build your own content. I'm Bill Gross at Bill Gross Probate on social media and love to help you. If I can help in any way, please reach out. If you like this, thumbs up, subscribe, put questions in, comments.

28:22 If you don't like it, let me know what we can do to be better. As always, make today your best day ever. Thanks so much.