Why There Should Be More Reverse Mortgages, with David Tourtillott

0:02 When I launched this podcast, my thesis was that as an industry, we should be doing 10 times the number of reverse mortgages than we are. In combination of a homeowners who own a home with lots of equity they can't access, and a reverse mortgage can help a lot of them, and home buyers who buy home for cash who can either buy a nicer home with a reverse mortgage than the cash they have, or can buy home with a reverse mortgage and conserve cash used for the lifestyle. And so, I was talking to a good friend of mine, Dave Tortola, who was I'm sorry, Dave Tortolot, not pronounced in French. I knew I was going to mispronounce that. Again, sorry, Dave.

0:42 No worries. The key statistics that prove that we should be doing more reverse mortgages than we are. Dave's with Mutual of Omaha, and he is a reverse mortgage specialist, and I believe a certified Yes, a certified reverse mortgage professional as well. Dave, let's talk about the three stats. The first stat is the unbelievable amount of equity tied up in people's homes that's available through reverse mortgages. How much are we talking about?

1:05 Yeah, so if you just take people age 62 or older, Bill, nationwide, just primary residence homes only, and you add up all their equity, it's accumulated to $14 trillion. It's actually $14 and 1/2 trillion. But, that's a massive asset class. So, a reverse mortgage is one of the ways to tap into that asset class, that home equity that these people have tied up in their homes. The other stat that ties into that is not only do we have $14 trillion to play with to help folks out age in place or however they want to use their home to stay at home. Most people age 65 and older, 46% of them are still either carrying a traditional mortgage or a home equity line of credit into retirement. So, we know that can wreak havoc on fixed income, right? It's an ongoing obligation. So, a reverse mortgage is one of the tools that's out there, Bill, that they can refinance those

2:02 Into a reverse and save that monthly principal interest payment. Well, let's talk about the first one first cuz it's a huge number, $14 trillion of home equity that's locked into place. And I think we think of it from a policy point of view as a country, that money is not being invested, you know, you know, they're not investing in buying new buildings, new equipment, or hiring people, whatever. It's nice that sitting It's kind of like having money in a checking account or having gold in a safe deposit box. It's secure, but it's both not working for the individual cuz it's just sitting there. And maybe the house is growing in value 1% a year, 2% a year. Nobody would expect that investment. But in terms of economy, that money is not being churned and used around. Imagine if we just got 50% loan-to-value on that equity and had $7 trillion of new economic activity in the economy, $7 trillion of sales, investment, building, payroll, on a national basis, that would be amazing. But talk about individually, you've had customers who lived a life where they had a lot of equity and very limited money to spend. What's it like for the individual when they can unlock the equity to improve their current lifestyle?

3:13 Yeah, well, I mean, if you look at folks age 62 or older nationwide, too, is another statistics which will tie into what I'm going to say. If you take their entire net worth, real estate, and retirement savings, 2/3 of that wealth is in their house.

3:31 Right. That's 42% of people nationwide age 62 or older, 2/3 of their wealth is stored up in their house. So, it's part of that $14 trillion that we just talked about. So, one of the ways that, you know, a lot of my clients, one of the ways is to tap into that wealth, that 2/3 of their net worth, is a reverse mortgage. And a reverse mortgage is very simple. It's just a way to unlock that wealth and turn it into cash. Cash for monthly payment, lump sums if you need it. If things break, you can fix things. If you want to have a better quality of life during retirement, you can use that money to go on vacation.

4:07 Right. I have affluent clients that have money, you know, a couple million bucks in the bank and their portfolio, and they also have a $500,000 credit line against their house in the form of a reverse mortgage. So, now they have a different resource to tap into. And you and I have talked about this, Bill. A mortgage, when you take the money from a reverse mortgage, when you take the money from it's borrowed money. So, it's income tax-free. Because it's borrowed money, it's going to be repaid in the future. Social Security is not counted as an income taxable event. So, my affluent clients, it changes their life because if they have a couple million dollars under management, a lot of those monies are taxable. If they have to go get money out for some reason, and the other reason is if they're taking money from it while it's suffering losses, they now have this new resource, that reverse mortgage credit line, that they can tap into as a buffer asset while that's suffering losses. So, it actually provides longevity to that portfolio cuz you're drawing from it only when it's not suffering losses. So, the other folks that don't have that money in their portfolio, Bill, I mean, like we talked about earlier, if they have a mortgage and they're that's really wreaking havoc on their fixed income. Say someone has a $1,500 a month mortgage and they make $3,000 a month Social Security. That's half their income.

5:25 Right. Well, if that mortgage is good for another 10 or 15 years and they're age and they want to stay in that house, they can simply refinance that into a reverse mortgage and now save that $1,500 a month. And that would make a substantial difference. So, that improves their quality of life during retirement.

5:45 So, they can go from paying monthly that's strangling them to have the payment basically go away other than tax insurance or HOA dues.

5:53 Yep. And substantially improve their monthly cash flow and then if they don't take all of the available funds to do that, they have some extra available credit line or draw that they can make on top of that even if they wanted to.

6:07 Exactly. That credit line will serve as like an emergency reserve account. Right. Let me just tell a quick story. So I have a client in Hingham, Massachusetts that

6:15 3 and 1/2 million dollars under management with a with an advisor. The house is worth 2 million dollars. They have no mortgages. They're both 65. Doing very well in their cash flow at $12,000 a month. Why would they need a reverse mortgage? Well, they heard me and Dr. Wade Pfau on the radio talking about strategies to use it. Neither one of them have a long-term care insurance policy cuz they're expensive. And so what they did is we set up the reverse mortgage all as a credit line. We didn't have to pay any reverse any mortgages off. There's no liens on the property. So we roughly had a $700,000 credit line. And that's growing right now at about 6 and 1/2%. That's the it's a variable rate, but it's growing at 6 and 1/2%. So that's always going to grow. And what they want that to be used for in the future, they're 65 now, let's say 15 20 years down the road if one of them needs in-home care. Now they've got this 1.5 million dollar credit line that can come out to them income tax free instead of them tapping into that 3 and 1/2 million dollar portfolio. So that's the strategy they want to use. So that's just one example of an affluent client and most people say why on earth would they take out a reverse mortgage? Well, it can be used it's just money. Equity can be turned into money through a reverse mortgage and used in different ways. So that was their strategy.

7:32 And it's you know, they're looking forward to having that grow over time. What they like about it too and what we talked about is if the value goes down after they take out a reverse mortgage, that doesn't affect the growth in the credit line. Because the growth in these credit lines are attached to their age. Our age always goes north. It never goes south or stops. Goes one way. So, as it goes up after you take it out, more equity deposits into that credit line using a rate, you know, a positive growth rate. But it's not income taxable. So, you have a hedge on party a portion of your home's value that's protected. The $2 million value can go down if we have a housing market crash, but the $700,000 credit line is protected. That's always going to grow cuz your age grows.

8:19 You know, I do this podcast every week. I've done probably now 70 or 80 episodes talking to different originators. Some with Mutual of Omaha, some with other with competitors. You know, I know one of the distinctions for you as a retail agent, meaning you represent Mutual of Omaha in the in the delivery of the product to the customer, is your company's brand is very important. That the company is very strict in how you can use the name, what products they'll take, what services they require. You know, as opposed to many mortgage brokers where you can get fired, change names, reopen under new name.

8:57 Yeah. Mutual's built over 100 years this reputation. And as a result, and I can say this, and I don't mean to embarrass other companies. I'm not involved with any company. I don't get any affiliate income. I'm just a real estate broker looking for our industry to improve. I can say without doubt that what the biggest problem with reverse mortgages today is when it comes time to pay them off when the borrowers have passed. The servicing. And the distinction that I've seen and experienced is that most companies who just sell the servicing to whoever, the servicers are like racing to foreclose cuz they get paid for fees and interest and penalties and it's like a it's like a race to get the property and it drives the client crazy, creates a lot of stress. Now, I get involved in those to protect the family, to help them if they need to open probate to get authority to act and sell the house or refinance the house, whatever they want to do.

9:51 Yeah. I don't see that with the with MassMutual client I'm sorry, Mutual of Omaha clients. I don't see that those same servicing issues. Talk a bit about what the post you know, loan process looks like what cuz I know with Champion there must be something going on behind the scenes. For company like yours, you're not going to allow that service problem to exist with your clients. So, is there some particular program, systems, procedures that make sure that you have that distinction?

10:18 Yeah. Well, I mean to be fair, when we're talking about the HECM product, the HUD product, those rules are set by HUD. You know, the services have to adhere to their rules. But, you might have different human beings in these services, too, and Mutual of Omaha has got a really good servicing department. And we do have the right to sell our servicing if we want to, and we have to disclose that in our disclosures, but we have our own servicing department. We So, the intent is not to, but we have the right to. You're right. We I have seen I won't mention the names I have seen a couple of companies out there and people have called me and said, "Geez, you know, my father died 3 months ago and they're looking to push for default." So, the interesting thing in our industry is the word default is a department. But, the word default to the consumer is I'm close to foreclosure. So, I you know, I think what I'll say is this about if you don't communicate with the bank post death of the last borrower, there's going to be problems. And that's why it's important to work with someone up front, the originator. Doesn't have to be me. Preferably a certified reverse mortgage professional. There's 209 CRMPs in the country at the moment. So that person is going to be there long after the loan closes and for the heirs of the estate.

11:42 And there should be a conversation within a couple of weeks after the person passes so that I do three-way calls into the servicer when the last person passes away around 2 weeks after. And they at that time the estate just they state their intent. They'll In other words, the servicer is saying, "How are we getting paid back now that the loan is due?" And typically they'll say, "We're selling the house." And then they'll say something like, "All right, is it already on the market?" No, we're in the middle of interviewing a couple of Realtors®. We should have one picked by next week. This is just an example, but they're going to be valuable information. They'll say, "Great, we need to know that it's on the market, so please call us back with the MLS number as soon as possible." And you start the 6-month clock from date of death, which was a few weeks ago. So that's already clicking. And so just do that. So once they do that call, a week later they call back with the MLS, if that property sells within 6 months, there's no further communication needed with the lender because it's sold. And the HUD statement is paid off. If the letter that goes out, it's a condolence letter, if the estate doesn't respond to that letter within 30 days of when that letter sent out. And that's probably about 2 weeks after the death cuz death is public notice.

13:04 So the servicer is a monitoring that. So that goes out and it says right on that letter, "Accept our condolences. A loan is now due. Please give us a call. State your intent of how it's being paid back, and please respond within 30 days of receiving this notice." What I've heard is that many estates let that 30-day expiration happen.

13:23 Yes. And then HUD has to go I mean not HUD, they have to go to HUD to get approval to send out the first default notice, which you've probably seen. And that just means it's you haven't responded to us in the time you're supposed to. It's moved into the default department, which doesn't mean it's going into a foreclosure. Just means, you know, we need to communicate quickly. So, I have not experienced that. I have heard that. So, I can only assume that it's a lack of communication, quick communication, and ongoing communication that causes those problems. If the estate isn't good about that problem, you know, it could it's just it's not going to go away because there's no wiggle room at HUD. Now, on the proprietary products, as you know, we have our it's that's our product. And so, Finance America Reverse has their product. You know, all the other lenders have their own proprietary, so do we. So, we have we have our own set of rules. We pretty much follow HUD's rules, though. We try and mirror what they do. So, we don't have to reinvent the wheel, but I haven't honestly seen anything like that with my clients. What I've seen is the probate issue, though, like when the person dies and they say, "Oh, we didn't have a trust. We have a will, though." And I say, "Well, unfortunately, that will has to be probated, so you got to get that underway now. But you got to contact the lender, the servicer, let them know what's going on. I'm the personal representative of the will. We don't have a trust or life estate deed to avoid probate. We're in the middle of that." And then they put those notes in the system. So, I just I don't have a distinction for you between us and them, whoever those thems are, but I have heard of those scenarios, but I can only assume that it's they're not in a race to foreclose, they're in a race to communicate with the estate.

15:11 Let me ask you this. Do you, as an originator, get noticed when cuz when somebody dies who has a reverse mortgage, their social security numbers are on their death cert, it reported to servicers, and the lender knows right away. Do you get notified of that?

15:24 Yes, we do. We get notified that there was a payoff requested. See, that's unique, I believe, with Mutual of Omaha. You guys do offer that, I believe, on your wholesale channel, too.

15:37 Yeah. As a service, because and again, why? Because your company is critically focused on providing good service, because it's your name's on the line. Your name's attached to the statement.

15:47 Yeah. Mutual of Omaha Corporation is making sure we have all our ducks in a row in the reverse division to ensure that brand stays at the level that it is.

15:58 Originators who work for companies who fund loans, but they sell the servicing and don't have the control that your company has when they sell servicing. Right.

16:06 And originators who broker loans have no control on that at all. Yeah. Never know. And as a result, now, of course, if you reach out to customers every 90 days or every year or 6 months, you'll find out. If you have a relationship with a family members or professionals, you'll find out. But and if you're Mutual of Omaha, you'll find out. But other companies, they don't find out. That's where the breakdown is. That's what's unique.

16:28 Yeah. And there are other good originators like you who work for companies who don't get those notices and have to either supplement with some other service or they're going to have customers who have bad service at the back, because absent you or your colleague, I can tell you what it looks like the other end. It's not pretty. It's not a pretty service. And so, I do think that's a distinction. I do think it's important for you know, it's an opportunity for you to discuss with your service providers like attorneys, estate planners, and wealth managers, this is a distinct advantage of working with you versus somebody else, which is you'll ensure a smoother transaction, because there's a system to it. It's not an accident. But I do think that's a very important distinction that And again, I launched this podcast to encourage that. Like to me, companies who sell the servicing or broker don't understand that they're really becoming transactional with a product that is ideal for a relationship and they're just missing out for a couple of basis points.

17:23 No, I agree I agree with you. Totally agree. That's why That's not the reason I moved out of cuz I was mainly in the broker channel up until 2 years ago. You know, wholesaling with the other partners that we've already mentioned. But I've never had a problem with my clients either brokering or on this side. But you're right, on this side we are notified. On this side it is a direct lender.

17:46 Right. So and on this side we have a very powerful brand to protect. Yeah. So and the brand going back to the brand, I will tell you that a lot of people age 62 and older love Mutual of Omaha. They've told me that. I have

18:02 Their insurance policy. I used to watch the Wild Kingdom show. I Right after Disney, every Sunday night. Of course. Yeah, I love Mutual of Omaha. I never realized that well till I went here. The power of this brand is people feel comfortable with. I've had people say, "Yeah, I've talked to a few people but I really want to go with Mutual of Omaha because I trust, you know, that company." They didn't say me, they said Mutual of Omaha.

18:25 So It's true. The brand is very powerful. I think I don't know of a better brand in the reverse mortgage space than Mutual of Omaha. I have a lot of friends in all the other companies but I've worked for brokers and no one ever knew what company I worked for. They just knew me cuz someone told them my name and my reputation was But marrying my reputation with Mutual of Omaha has been very helpful to me.

18:47 You know, I was thinking about this just as a businessman, how I think somewhat dishonest the whole private equity game is in that they buy companies who have good brand value. An example I was reading about was Chipotle, which had a great brand name based on high-quality ingredients, high-touch service to customers. And then they got bought by private equity who shaved costs by lowering the cost of their input, the food, lower quality, and cutting the number of employees, cutting the service. And in essence, people went in buying the same $20 burrito, which was maybe, you know, $18 burrito and $2 brand, and they basically charged them the $20 and the private equity company basically took the brand money, put it in their pocket. And so, I think that what happens is we've seen these companies I think it's kind of cheating the customer because if you walk in expecting the Chipotle service you had for, you know, the prior years, and I've and I've never eaten at Chipotle. I eat kosher food only, so I just know it from a business case study. But if you walk in and don't get the brand service that you've paid for, yes, the private equity company makes a profit, but then in my mind, they're just stealing from the customers. Eventually, these companies go broke and you wonder, "Well, why did this company go out of business?" Because they basically sold their soul for short-term profits. And so, you see a company like with big brands, particularly financial services, they're very protective, and rightfully so, because it's worth something. Yeah. Someday, maybe, you know, somebody buys it and strips it of its value, but for now, and certainly it seems to me the current management is very committed to protecting it. Again, I think in the reverse mortgage, it's the product that has very little customer loyalty, very little customer faith.

20:28 And marrying with a brand like yours, I think it's very important because it says your company, you personally, and your company willing to make the commitment to be of service to your customers. I admire that. Now, do you do you have to charge higher rates because of that? I would imagine you're not the lowest-price lender. How could you be when you're offering better-quality service and hiring better-quality people and paying attention to all the rules? It always costs a little more to get good service, but for most people, for many people, it's worth it in the long run.

20:56 Exactly. So, how do you So, how do you compare when you when you sit down with customers is I, you know, as a former forward mortgage originator, it was all about the rates and points. And then you had to prove you could deliver in the purchase market. On the refinance market, there's no transaction, so that part was off the table. It was just purely rates, points, and fees. In your case, I would imagine it's really more about counseling on what the options are and how to use the tool most effectively. What do you do to compare yourself to other options that customers have? Or, are they not comparing other options? Is there enough on the reverse mortgage plate for you to keep them focused on that and then they like what you offer them, they just accept it?

21:35 No, that's a good question. I mean, you always I mean, as a certified reverse mortgage professional, my mindset is always about education and figuring out what each story is of each prospective client. So, my first question always, Bill, is why are you looking into a reverse mortgage? And then, the answer to that's going to give me some meat to chew on, you know, whatever that answer is. And then I'm thinking, while they're telling me, are there other alternatives to a reverse mortgage? As they're telling me that. If they tell me, well, I want to stay here. I just lost my husband, so I lost half my income. I love my neighbors. I love where I live. The house is manageable. So, I know that selling's not an option to even talk about. She's already told me that. So, if you just listen, and I try and do more listening than talking when I'm sitting down with my clients initially at that initial consultation, they're going to kind of tell me themselves what alternatives I'm going to be able to present to them. You know, one being the reverse mortgage. But, you know, forward mortgage could be an option. A home equity line of credit could be an option. If I know selling's not an option, then I wouldn't even bring that up. I would mention to them, "Doesn't sound like you want to sell, so we can't talk about that." So, it has nothing to do with I'm there to educate them on what this is as another alternative to what their big picture is. You know, what you know, a home equity line of credit, I'll compare it to them taking out a home equity line versus this. They're going to get nearly enough money because they get one income and when you take out a home equity line or a traditional mortgage, you know it's based on your ability to repay them back. So, how much money do you make, what's your credit score, what do you have in savings and reserves? Reverse mortgage is what's your age and what's the value of the house.

23:17 So, they're always going to get more bang for their buck. Now, the cost of a reverse mortgage is much more expensive than a traditional home equity line of credit or forward mortgage, but you have to be competent enough to justify that and saying things like, well, the cost of taking this out is going to be $25,000, but that's not coming out of your pocket. It's coming out of the house's value, essentially initially. And so, if they've told me they're going to stay there long term, build and the house is worth $800,000 and the 100-year average appreciation rate by HUD is 4%. So, that's 32 grand in 1 year on average. If the closing costs are 25 and they stay in there long term, I can present that to them. You're staying here long term, over time, the house is going to go up in value and recoup the cost for you that cost you to take this loan out.

24:10 Right. So, if you just I don't know, as a certified professional, you have to know your stuff, but you also have to know enough to be able to justify things and then also look at every prospective client the same way you would look at your own mother and father. So, if the recommendations don't work for your mother and father, then they're not going to be recommended to this person I'm sitting in front of that I just met. It's just how I conduct myself. It's always about what's the best thing for them based on them being my mother and father. And so, that's just always been the way I do it. So, I don't ever really have any problems, you know, with interest rates because that's we're not there to fix there's no payment. So, whether the rate six or five or seven or three, they're not making a payment and if they've told me that their children have advised them to get this, then it's irrelevant because whether they reach three or seven, it just means they get less money when they sell the house. And the kids don't care. So, I don't focus too much on that. Sometimes people do if you get an engineer. And so then we dive into it. But every presentation for me is different because I'm not going to present to a widower the same way I would present to an engineer. An engineer is going to want to talk.

25:27 So, you got to know who you're sitting down with. You got to know why they're looking into a reverse mortgage. And then you can present from there. You're going to present all options. And so I always compare a home equity line of credit to this. It's all right. If you go down and get a home equity line for 200 bucks, this loan's going to mature in 10 years. And it's not going to be an interest-only payment anymore. It's going to be a principal and interest payment over 20-year term, and the payment's going to double. Do you want to be in that position in 10 years? No, I don't. Okay, well with a reverse mortgage, you can set up a reverse mortgage, have the line of credit in place, and it doesn't mature. Your loan gets paid back when you don't live here anymore. So, it never matures. You're not going to have a cash flow issue with a reverse mortgage as long as you're paying your taxes, insurance, living there as your primary home, and maintaining the house no more no less than you're doing right now. And then a reverse mortgage is much more expensive, but a home equity line also has a payment attached to it. Prime rate goes up, your payment goes up. Prime rate goes down, your payment goes down. If the rate goes up on your reverse mortgage variable rate, there's no payment. If it goes down, there's still no payment. And the flexibility if they come into an inheritance or come into money or hit the lottery, you can pay down a reverse mortgage, and also any money you pay back can be re-borrowed again cuz it just adds to the credit line.

26:46 So, if you have a $100,000 loan balance on $100,000 credit line, you send 75,000 back, you just dropped your balance to 25 grand, but you just increased your credit line to 175,000. So, you can re-borrow it and now that's all growing inside of that hedged portion of equity. So, every every person is different, every situation is different, but with me all options are on the table while I'm there. Once I understand their circumstances and their story and the reason they're looking into a reverse, it helps me help them. Because I get a feeling for what's actually

27:21 Better alternative, selling or staying. Cuz we can also talk about the home equity for purchase as well. You know, maybe they didn't realize they could sell and downsize and actually have a better financial position cuz they have more than money in the bank from the net proceeds of the sale because they didn't realize they could finance some of the next sale, the next purchase.

27:42 The whole thing. Yeah. The whole thing. So, it's thing to sort of like pinpoint, but it's in the moment. Why are you looking into it? Tell me why and then I can go from there and know what options to even talk about, what alternatives. And then I go through all the alternatives and make sure they understand what I'm saying and I always back up what I say with things in writing. So, if I tell them the children and the estate are not personally liable for the debt, I open up my trifold and I show them that paragraph from HUD saying it's a non-recourse loan. The only thing that's to satisfy the loan is the house. And they see that in writing.

28:20 Right. If I tell them when they take money from the credit line, it's income tax free, I open up the my trifold and I go to the ssa.gov page that I found online that says loan proceeds are not counted as income right from Social Security's mouth. So, just going there with all the information, so when you leave there you've done an excellent job in informing that consumer, so they can make the best decision possible.

28:46 So, one of my pet peeves, I have a few, on this product is that the HECM product, the standard product, has built into it an annual contact point that says, "Hey, we're just checking to make sure you still qualify for the loan. You're still alive. It's your primary residence." and such. And I find that most originators just ignore that opportunity. And I say to them, "Well, how often do you call your past clients? Do you call them at least once a year? Why would you not at least call them when that statement is mailed out, supposedly mailed out? Did you get it yet? Did you complete it? You know, there's different ways you can approach it before it goes out, when it's out, right after it should have gone out, before the deadline. And be a value to make sure that you're still there in their world. Or you find out they passed and you get connected through to the child at that time, calling to help them rather than only be available when there's a loan due. If I was the national sales manager at Mutual of Omaha, I would hold commission checks and only pass them out once a week if you'd called on your past clients the prior week, because it just makes no sense not to from a sales point of view. And I know we all have our disciplines and we all fall short and I don't mean to pick on you, Dave, but you're in front of me, so this is my pet peeve. Talk about the requirement for that, the customer getting that requirement, and, you know, how do we get more originators to reach out to the customers at least once a year to be the main point of contact should that loan need to be serviced in any way or paid off in particular?

30:26 Yeah, good point. And that's going to come down to the loan officer, unfortunately. There's nothing mandatory in place at Mutual of Omaha to say I mean, we talk about it. Yes, you have to talk, you know, speak to your clients, stay in touch with them, tell them you're still here, and I do that. But, it doesn't mean every LO is going to do that at Mutual of Omaha. Just being honest with you. But, I'm in touch with my clients. I have clients going back, you know, all the way to 2005. That I still speak to on a regular basis. They'll just call me out of the blue and say, "Dave, do you know a painter?" I you know, you said, "I can call you with any time for any reason." And it's not the reverse. So, "Do you know a plumber? Do you know a you know, I got to have my front door fixed." You know, so I'm in touch with my clients at least, I would say, once a year. And it might be that they're calling me. So, it's not me reaching out to them. So, they're calling me. I'm like, "How's everything going? Do you understand the statement?" And sometimes they'll say, "I don't really understand the statement." We might go through it over the phone. If I'm in the area, I might say, "Why don't I swing by? We'll walk through the verbiage on the statement together." Because there's all kinds of verbiage on there that doesn't make any sense to them. Principal limit, current principal limit, all these different things. The annual occupancy certificate, I think that every loan officer at closing, I always go to my closings. I'm licensed in Massachusetts or I don't go to the ones in Florida, but I'm on the phone and I always do a debrief after the closing. I tell them what to expect. You're going to get a welcome packet in the next few weeks.

31:54 You can do everything online. You can request funds online and set up a username and password there. If you need help with that, you can call me. Going forward, you're going to get monthly statements. You're going to get a form in the mail that you can use to draw money from your credit line. That's going to direct deposit. You just gave us a voided check whenever you request funds. And then every year, around now, this is an important one. You're going to get a an annual occupancy certificate. They're going to want to verify you still live here. That's now coming via email. So, you can just check a box and say, "Yes, I live here." So, it makes it easier than signing it putting it in the USPS. So, yes, I'm in touch with my clients. And again, I find that to be very important as well. And you get referrals that way, too. When you're there when you're there a decade or so after their loan closed, I have people call me say, "Yeah, you know, Leslie told me to give you a call. I live three doors down. She said she said a reverse from you for 12 years. You're still there for and she said it's the best thing she's ever done. It's just made her life so much easier financially." So, that's why that's not why I do it. I think we owe it to our customers to stay in touch with them, but if you do that, there's also a benefit. You get you're doing a great job, you're going to get referrals. So,

33:05 Well, again, it's good thing I met the national sales director at Annie's company cuz I would walk around with a club and beat them just so they don't call the past clients. I just don't get it. I just don't get why they don't do that. But anyhow, that's my pet peeve and I'm glad I got off of that. Look, David, obviously you set very high standards for service and knowledge and education. I really appreciate you sharing with us you know, your insights. I think both in terms of your company and personally. If you want to get more of David Turley, you can go to the website Mutual of Omaha is the mortgage company and you can reach out to him individually. It's mutualreverse.com/lo for loan officer david-turley or [phone number]. Or if you're driving, can't write this down, call me. I'd be more than glad to make an introduction. Be honored to put you together with him. We've you know, had a nice relationship for a while and hopefully we can continue. David, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing everything with us.

33:58 Thank you, Bill. I appreciate you. And for actually, this is a Reverse Mortgage Podcast. We get together every week with a new episode of mortgage originators, of vendors, management. This case, top originator with one of the top companies in the country. Hope you found it helpful. I did. I always learn a lot. Interesting to learn about their brand and how they operate a little differently than this way other companies. And I think that's why they're successful. So, you know, success leaves clues. If I can help any way, please reach out at Bill Gross Probate on social media. As always, make today your best day ever.