Specializing in Reverse Mortgages, with Harlan Accola of Movement Mortgage

0:02 You know, there are companies that do reverse mortgages and then there are companies that have specialists that do reverse mortgages. That's a really important distinction. True confession, I am a fanboy of Movement Mortgage. I've worked with them and I've had the privilege of working with them for about six years with their forward or we would say traditional mortgage side. And one thing I learned in launching this Reverse Mortgage Podcast was that they break their reverse mortgage originators into different division and have qualifications. And personally, I love the concept. Now, I apologize to my friends originators at other companies that do both and tell me how good they are. But at a company level, I love the fact that Movement has really taken a corporate stance and supported with resources and people including the national director Harlan Accola who among other things has written a book on the subject of reverse mortgages. So, not something to be taken lightly. Hank, thank you for joining us today on the Reverse Mortgage Podcast.

0:50 It's good to be here, Mr. Gross. Thanks for the opportunity. Now, you know, I know managing mortgage originators having done it myself is like herding cats. Movement has some very high standards that you hold all your originators to and the reverse space specifically, if I understand it correctly, you really limit those originations to people who meet a particular set of criteria and make your division. Talk a bit about that decision that Movement made and how that maintains high standards for your brand and high standards of service for customers.

1:18 Yeah, that we have a over 1,000 originators at Movement. We do about 20 billion a year in mortgages overall in all 50 states. But the only people that do the reverse mortgages are 15 of what we refer to as our retirement mortgage professionals. They are not allowed to do forwards. If somebody wants to come here and do forwards and reverse, they can't come here. Yeah, they just got to go to a different model. And the reason that we're so strict on that is because we did it differently in the past at other companies and it never worked well for quite frankly for the originator or for the for the clients. It's not that it can't be done. It's just not that efficient and it doesn't deliver as good of a product when you are only doing this, you have to be dedicated to knowing and probably the biggest thing Bill by far is we work with a lot of financial advisors. Half of our business comes from financial advisors. Many financial advisors have been turned off by reverse mortgages by somebody that does two a two a year and they come in and say they're an expert and they screw it up and don't know how to properly explain it and so our people are required we do two hours of training for all of our people every single week.

2:38 And some of that is about details on what we're what's going on with Roth conversions, what's going on with tax issues, what's going on with social security, what's going on with the Medicare issues and all of those things are things that our people need to know about so they can be a benefit to an advisor. I just got off of a call with an advisor today and their client 4.4 million dollars in assets under management. They're moving from a $700,000 house to their vacation home on the lake, buying a vacation home in the lake which is going to be their primary residence for 1.5 million and we're going through their tax scenario, we're going through their inheritance and estate plan, we're going through all of these aspects. The vast majority of forward loan officers, no matter how good they are at forwards, would not be able to speak intelligently to a majority of those things. So, long answer to a short question, but that's really what it comes down to is you need to know a lot more than just about reverse mortgages.

3:42 You know, I think if I could put a fine point on your answer there was a time in California when you needed a lot I was originator originally. I started as a mortgage originator and did that for the first part of my career. In California, you had the same license, you could also sell real estate. I started doing a couple sales. What I realized was I could do both. I just couldn't do both and be great at either one or both of them. And I had to make a decision and made a decision. And I would say the same with mortgages. I don't know anybody who's great at doing both. I know people who are great forward originators and they won't touch reverse for the most part. And I know some great reverse mortgage originators who'll do some forwards cuz they probably came from that world, but if they didn't, then not. So, talk a bit about for an originator who wants to move their My experience is, you know, people don't make those career changes because they're doing too many loans. They're doing it because they're struggling a bit. You know, obviously, we want to keep the bar high. What does it take for an originator who's doing forwards and considers that career change? What are you looking for them to join your firm? What's the standards and what kind of resources do you take to help them? You obviously training's part of the Is that Is that it or other things you do as far as coaching or what do you do to help them be successful?

4:50 Yeah, we have a coach on staff. So, they get free coaching, essentially, that normally would cost several hundred dollars a month otherwise, but that's they go through training with Dan Hultquist, who's one of the foremost trainers in the country. He's written I mean, he's a best-selling author on understanding reverse, has developed the software Reverse Plus, and I mean, when HUD does their training, they use his book. He's goes to Washington D.C. A couple times a year. So, they go through that training with him, more so with me on the sales side, and then we have weekly personal calls as well as group training on all of the things, not just to do with reverse mortgages, but obviously with senior issues and other factors. So, but what we're looking for in what anybody, whether they're doing it with us or someone else, it really comes down to a commitment. If they're just doing reverse mortgages, so can make a little bit of money on the side, they're doing it for the wrong reason. Do you really want to consider this as a career? Do you really want to learn about AUM and life insurance and annuities and Medicare and Medicaid and how things work with Roth conversions and are you going to read the books that are written by Ed Slott and Wade Pfau and Jamie Hopkins, etc., etc.? Are you are you making a commitment to the space that you're going to be an expert on senior matters, not just reverse mortgages? And a lot of people don't realize when you make that commitment, that means your income might go down for a period of time. When I did it, my income went down. I tried to do both for a while. And when I did it, in fact, I was even going I even got my insurance license. I was going to be a financial advisor, too. What the hell was I thinking?

6:30 I'm glad that I matured and learned more, but the issue is that when you make that decision, it takes a while and your income goes down temporarily. And then it usually mine shot up way above what I ever made because I became really good at and more and more people would work with me because they knew I knew what I was talking about. And including other professionals.

6:57 You know, I'm a real estate agent and I focus my business on probate trust. That's how I get into reverse mortgages because it's not uncommon that mom and dad pass, there's a reverse mortgage, nobody told the kids what's going on, facing foreclosure, and I step in and help with that. So, that's how I got involved with reverses. I learned about reverse about probate real estate that real probate real estate agents don't complain about how hard our transactions are. We brag about it because it's like a badge of honor. I helped a customer had these five problems. Oh, I had that and another two. I had, you know, rats and ants and I had a hoarder and we had some drugs in the apartment and we found some guns and we found some unregistered guns. Like you brag about the problems. That's a real probate real estate agent. I found the same is true to some degree with the reverse mortgage originators that the ones who dabble in it and don't do well complain that they end up having to do too much too much training, too many questions, too much hand-holding, too much preparation. And the ones I've seen that are world-class, I've had the pleasure of interviewing a number of them on this podcast, I don't say they brag about it, but with pride they say, "My customers have this problem and I solved that in this way." And I have to they have this problem, I solve it this way. So, I would say a lot of it seems to be mindset, not just mechanics.

8:09 Well, there's no question. Awful lot of things come down to mindset. And the I mean, there's a lot of people right now that thinks it's a really tough market. This is probably one of the best markets that we've ever had in the reverse industry. I mean, I got started in reverses 20 years ago when you couldn't even make any money on the yield spread premium. And I mean, it was it was that was a tough time.

8:34 Yeah. Yeah, it was easier to get people to qualify, but what the limit was 250,000 or something back then. So, yeah, most everything comes down to mindset. And I was told a long time ago, Bill, in no matter what business you're in, no matter what kind of job you have, we're all paid to solve problems, big, small. The bigger the problem, the better you're paid.

9:00 Yes. So, I want big problems. I want the big tax problem. I want a complicated situation with a client so that I can be of more help to them and be worth more to them and their other advisors. And you know, and this happens specifically with real estate professionals that listen to your show, there's a whole bunch of real estate professionals that do not understand what's going on in the senior market. They don't even know that 58% of sellers and like 52% of buyer yeah, buyers are over 62. Yeah. It's half the market and they don't understand how to relate to these people. I was just talking to one today in Massachusetts and she said, "I'm having such a problem getting this person to sell because they've got a 2% and 2.5% mortgage and, you know, they don't want a 7% mortgage." I said, "Well, that's because they shouldn't get any regular mortgage at all. They should just get a reverse and then their payment is zero." And she did not understand how to explain it. I talked to her for a half hour and told her how to explain it and said, "I'll be happy to talk to your client about it." But, she did not understand it herself and in fact, she was over 62 and she didn't have her own reverse mortgage. And she had $2.5 million in her house.

10:17 And I'm going to plead guilty to the same thing and that, you know, I It's so embarrassing, but the truth is I was only talking to you and a Realtor® who did reverses and I was contemplating buying a house in Florida. I live in California. I didn't want to sell my current house, but I had about half a million dollars of cash I was going to, you know, look to buy it. And I was complaining that I thought, you know, my wife would stay here, we'd grandkids nearby. I'd make it my primary residence for tax reasons. I'd live in Florida maybe half of the year and whatever. We I had it worked out to some degree, but I just really can't get enough for the money I have available. I don't want to do a mortgage. And he said to me, "Have you considered a reverse mortgage for purchase?" I said, "You can do that?" And I'm like, I'm a real estate broker. Like, I have to do a lot of business. How did I not know that? I was so embarrassed. Of course, anybody buying a house for cash who's over whatever it is, 62 or 55 on the primary on the proprietary product, should at least look at getting a reverse mortgage. At least run the numbers. Or else you're just not being complete. You're not being thoughtful about the process. I didn't know that. So, that said, Harlan, you're the, you know, some big muckety-muck at Movement Mortgage. You're a big company. You're the national director or something. I don't know. Executive of some sort. We want to ride to the sound of gunfire. We're not going to run away from it. How do we get the word out to people? This is a product My numbers tell me we should be doing this industry 10 times the business we are that between cash purchases I'm doing right now as a listing agent. She shouldn't be buying for cash. She should be getting a reverse mortgage on the on the purchase side or people in house Frank Lair should get a reverse mortgage to put the equity part. How do we get the word out more effectively? What are we doing wrong that this obvious answer is just not even being evaluated?

11:59 Every day that I look at our numbers as an industry, I feel that I've failed in my career. You are 100% right. I've been in this business for 20 years and we have not yet cracked the code but we're close.

12:16 It goes two ways. The tide is turning and I'm 66 and mark my words I'm on recorded tape here. Before I die we are going to be doing thousands of these a month. Like you know, right now you know, you're lucky to do 2,000 a month. We're going to be doing 100,000 a month. And by the way, if we did 10,000 a month for 10 years, that would be less than 2% of the market. So I mean it's not like that's a big number. There's 72 million people our age. So but in answer to your question, it's two ways. First of all, you have to have the hand-to-hand combat. You got to know how to sell this because there's nothing more difficult to sell in my mind than reverse mortgages. It's easier to sell timeshare. I really believe that. And timeshare is pretty hard to sell. So you have to be good at your craft and you have to know how to explain and take the time with a client. I got done with a client for the second meeting this afternoon and she said, you know, I feel good about everything that you've said. I when I came into this meeting, I was very uncomfortable after what we talked about last time, you opened up my mind that I was ready for the second meeting, but I really was thinking that we were going to go away from this looking at a forward mortgage or paying cash." so, the first thing you have to be get we've got a bunch of untrained people that are looking to make a quick buck that don't know how to sell this thing. And that's why there's so few being sold because it's easier to sell a forward mortgage than it is a reverse or just take one shot at it.

14:05 The second thing that Movement is working on is from the while we're working with all of those clients on hand-to-hand combat, so to speak, on teaching them, we have to work with the big scenario. We're looking at large financial firms, large real estate companies. This needs to be part of every real estate program at Movement. We have just started a program called HERO, Home Equity Retirement Options. It's going to be a nationwide network of people that are of like mind that are trained under the same scenario of how reverse mortgages work for financial planning, how they work for buying houses, how they work for inheritance and estate planning, that we have already trained 200 financial advisors that are part of the nationwide that are part of this initial group, and we'll refer business to them because they know what's going on.

14:54 Right. So, as we look at the bigger picture of educating a company like Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance, which should be embracing and talking to every one of their clients about reverse mortgages, and they're not right now, we're working to change that at the large top level so that this could be disseminated because we need help from other industries, National Association of REALTORS®. Why are they not all over this? They publish

15:22 Know. I don't know. I mean get me a get me in touch with somebody at NAR because this is nuts. Half the market is over 62 and they've got a measly little virtual nothing training on reverse mortgages as part of their SRES program. I mean, come on. This is half the market, NAR. It's not the first of all first.

15:47 Like I said, and I'm a pretty active real estate agent and I had no idea the opportunities that I talked to who should consider getting a reverse mortgage and part of that, you know, brokerages aren't really teaching this product. You know, I think it gets down to a mentality, but that has to change because it reverse mortgage I think like I'm a listing agent. So, for me, it's much harder to accept an offer with a reverse mortgage than it is cash, for sure. I mean, you know, and my job is to do as best for my client. But, had the buyer's agent prepped the customer, had the whole thing ready to go, and had a good originator like a like a movement for originators I know, if I if a movement reverse mortgage originator called me and said, "Hey, I know you don't like the idea of a mortgage, but they're pre-approved, we've the education done, we've done this, we've done that. Our appraisal time is X, whatever it is." They have the numbers down, they tell me, "Here's what's going to happen and I'm on it. Here's my number. If you have any questions, I'm here by your side, make sure it happens. You know who we are as a company." I can sell it to my seller.

16:49 Do you know, Bill, that we beat out three cash offers on a deal because we explained that our deal was better than a cash offer because how do you know that they actually got the cash? We got the cash verified and all that proof. And so

17:00 100% How do you know cash offers aren't cash offers? I've been around enough to know. I'd much rather have a great for a reverse mortgage originator than cash offer because at least I know they're even they have the cash, they didn't may not want to use it. They're relying on a hard money loan or they're selling a house that tell me about. They don't need it, but they want it. They're going to back out if it doesn't sell. Doesn't matter how much cash they have. You're 100% right. But I don't get that phone call from the reverse mortgage originator telling me that. And if they did, I could I could bring it to my seller. We could make an informed decision. I think that's where the breakdown is that we

17:32 When we do, excuse me for a second, when we do any kind of approval for a client, we not only educate the buyer's agent that we're working with, but we immediately ask the buyer's agent to give us the name and phone number of the listing agent and we explain it to the listing agent of what the deal is and the whole story and that's how we win the deal because they know that we've got a for sure deal, 100% for sure. And our people can offer more money because we're financing part of the deal. So, they can offer 800,000 instead of 750 because it's only another, you know, half that amount for them.

18:09 And I think this is where the forward-thinking Realtors® will see the opportunity and say with the Realtors® in that you know, in a time of AI, a team of atomic technology, Zillow and Redfin always competitors, you know, computers can simulate a lot of the work and they can send a pre-approval letter that looks the same as any other lender. But when a friend or colleague or a local vendor that I've worked with like Movement Mortgage calls me and says, "Hey Bill, I know you don't know me cuz I'm in the reverse outside, but I know you know so-and-so or I do know so-and-so. I know Casey Crawford. I met him at one of your regional events years ago. I know you guys are solid company. I know that if you guys say it's pre-approved, you guys are going to hold to it unlike some other companies. That's a big advantage that we have to leverage and I think it's harder work. It's more challenging, but I do believe that's where the market's headed because with all the AI and technology, how do you stand out? Well, you stand out by being better than the competition, by having a tighter relationship and a better reputation. So, again, I think I am definitely on board with this and I think I would encourage any originator, man, if you want to do more reverse purchases, just tell the agent you're going to call the listing agent and help sell them on the process. I would love reverse mortgage loans instead of cash. I would love it if I knew who the originator was.

19:21 Well, there's no question. We had one up in Minnesota, and the builder said, "I don't want to mess with that reverse mortgage thing cuz they're always late." And so I called him directly, and I said, "Do you know that we have a 17-day guarantee? We could have closed this thing a week ago. You're just not done building the house yet." So, get the house built, and we'll close, you know, the day after we get the CO. And he said, "That's not the way that it works with reverse mortgages." I said, "Well, that's not the way it works at a lot of companies, but that's the way that it works here." And so unfortunately, the there's even a company out there right now that's a relatively large company that says, "Give us 45 to 60 days for a purchase." Well, why don't you just kill the deal right away?

20:02 Right. Right. That's not going to work. Right. And you know, it's funny you say that because this one I have recently just accepted a cash offer on where, you know, we had multiple offers, and the cash offer was offered to close in 21 days, and my buyer my seller was, you know, interested in that. And then once we accepted it, they said, "Well, really, if we can get 45 days because this and that, we like the extra time." And so now I'm going back to the buyer and negotiating, "Well, 45 days." Well, all of a sudden, we could do a reverse mortgage in 45 days that if we couldn't do it in 21, maybe in your case we could have, but in this case we couldn't have. Still, we have 45 days now, so now it becomes more possible. So, again, this is about communication and preparation and hard work. And I That's why I do this podcast. I want to challenge all originators to be better at your job, be better at your craft, communicate more, do the hard work, serve your customers more. And it's the same with the real estate agents. We have a chance to better serve our customers overall.

20:55 Well, you touched on it before, real quick, Bill. I You touched on it before that Movement Mortgage, the company that it is, it's not just about a good originator that can communicate well. It's also about somebody that's going to back them up. That's, you know, I just talked to one of my originators got nervous about a closing and I got the our head of ops on the phone and she said, we are not going to miss that closing date. It will close.

21:18 You know, it's not just me. It's the people that are actually you know, getting the money to the table. The thing that he doesn't know a Movement Mortgage when they say that they mean that. You know, there's not a lot of integrity in this industry. I've been around long enough. I was I was watching Bank of America and Wells Fargo renege on commitments to before they went bankrupt and renamed themselves and I've been around the block enough to see that integrity doesn't go too far, but you guys have really built your company on your reputation and on the values. And like I said, it's one thing to say every company has some sort of value statement on their website. I've worked with Movement for I want to say six or seven years. They walk the walk. This is not they It's I can't just say cuz you have to meet the people, but they really do walk the walk having been around them quite a bit. In fact, let's talk a little bit about a pivot from a company level. I know you guys really pride yourselves on being an impact lender or impact lending that you know don't just do the loans, you don't just make money, but you also help build your community. Talk a bit about Movement Mortgage and how you relate to that process. Some of the things that you do with your success.

22:22 Yeah, we're our slogan is we exist to love and value people. Our shirts say that. You know, our website says that. We talk about that almost every day. It's very rare that you go through a day that we don't say, "Hey, we exist to love and value people." even in our either in our communication or internally as we're making decisions. Well, does this love and value people? Which is really simple, but an awful lot of things in business are done that does not love and value people. It makes some money, but it doesn't do that. So, Casey Crawford who you've met started the company back in 2008. You remember what was going on 2008 in the mortgage industry and it was all falling apart and he said, "You know what? The mortgage industry is screwed up, and it's got to be better. It just doesn't look good, and I can do a good mortgage company." And so, he started Movement, and

23:15 Retired from NFL football player after he'd won the Super Bowl with Jon Gruden in Tampa Bay. That was obviously 20 years ago. But anyway,

23:24 What he said is, "I'm going to give half of my profits back to people less fortunate than ours in the communities that we serve." Well, that was very easy for him to say because in the first two, three years, no money was made. So, there was nothing to give away. Well, then we started doing an awful lot of loans. He started doing an awful lot of loans, Movement did. And to date, he's given away almost a half a billion dollars. And we call it impact lending. 49% of the company is owned by Movement Foundation, which means we will never be sold because nobody wants to buy a company that gives away 50% of its profits. And it has to be that way because Movement Foundation owns 49% of the company. A big effort of Movement Foundation is to have schools to educate kids that are disadvantaged. Casey found out 10 years ago that they build prisons in South Carolina, where we're headquartered, based on the number of kids that do not know how to read by the third grade. They're going to go to prison, so let's just build a prison for them right now. I mean, how And Casey said, "Why don't we just teach kids how to read?" So, he started some schools, and all of our kids know how to read by the second grade, and we're four times the test scores of public schools. So, a lot of a lot of people say, "Well, what are you? Are you a charity? Are you a school? Do you build school?" We fund all of our efforts with mortgages, and instead of putting our name on Bank of America Stadium, nothing against them, but instead of putting our name on stadiums, instead of spending millions in TV ads, we just put money back into the community and that's why a lot of people have never heard of us even though we do $20 a year. We're one of the top 10 mortgage independent mortgage banks in the country. And so when somebody is dealing with us, they're going to get the same price as they get anywhere else. But in addition to that, they get the good feeling that half of the profit that's made on their loan is going to going to people that are desperate

25:29 In need. And we run food banks, we send people overseas to take care of everything from sex trafficking to places that have been ravaged by famine. So and many employees go. We go on these scenarios. So a lot of people say, well, what are you? Well, we're kind of a charitable organization that's funded by selling mortgages. Is what I sometimes explain it as. So I want I go on with that. I'm not trying to brag about the fact that we give stuff away because even the Bible says don't let your left hand know you're not you're not supposed to brag about your giving. But I just want people to understand what our company is like that's the mission of our company is to help others while we're making money and doing well.

26:13 Well, again, and as an outsider, I can say it's apparent. Like you meet people, there's just a little different attitude, there's a little different hop in their step, there's a little different commitment to doing the right thing. And I think particularly when you deal with seniors, when you deal with people's retirement, when you deal with their last home perhaps that they're buying or selling, that you have to have integrity. It comes across or it doesn't. And one of the things I learned early on was who you are speaks so loudly I can hardly hear what you're saying. And you know, that's been my experience with Movement Mortgage along the way. And so I'm not suggesting anybody should do business with you because they're contributing to rebuilding homes, whether it be in South Carolina or around the world. I'm saying you're going to get a better experience with an originator who's committed to doing the right thing. And they're going to talk better to your customer, they're going to talk better to you, and get you the service you want. I've been a fanboy since I met the company and you know, just I think it's an important consideration. Who's the company behind it? And then what kind of product are they getting? So I guess maybe kind of last question, your role as a you know, national director, where I sit, you know, we should be doing today 10 times I think you know, you agree with your company because 50 times great goal hope you guys achieve that. Is that because we're going to recruit 10 times or more originators new to the reverse side or because we're going to convert the excess supply of forward originators some of who some of whom are struggling into becoming reverse mortgage or combination of the both. Where do you see the growth coming from of the population to serve people?

27:42 Well, I told Casey a long time ago I said he wanted to build at least 100 schools. We've got seven of them up right now. To help kids. And I said, "Well, if you want to build 100, if I come over there and we're doing the reverse thing, reverse should do 100." I think that there is going to be a time in the future I and our company is growing so fast in the forward side that it's difficult for me to say this now, but there's going to be some companies like ours that perhaps do more reverse mortgages than forward mortgages, which is unthinkable right now because there's so many, you know, they've been working in forward mortgages for so long. But there's going to be a gradual shift that when you've got 72 million people and I picked up this article the other day. Did you know that 23% of people over the age of 65 in the US are living in poverty? Quarter of the people in the United States, richest country in the world, are living in poverty. We're not a third world country. That's crazy. And amongst that group, they're sitting on 14 trillion dollars worth of wealth in their houses and it's very evenly distributed unlike by or anything else. So, once this catches on, it's going to be a hockey stick thing and we're going to have to train as many originators as possible to do things the way that we do them and many of them are going to be forward originators that say, "Hey, there's a greater need to serve those people than there is first-time homebuyers cuz there's more of them." Not that we're what don't want to help first-time homebuyers, don't get me wrong on that at all. I want to help the people from 20 to 60, but there's going to be such a need shift that you're starting to spend more time working over here.

29:15 It's different skill sets, different marketing pitches. It you know, it's just you can't be everything to everybody. Look, I do it all the time. I dealt with a lady and I'm trying to help her now who's, you know, her husband passed her husband of 50 years and she's like 80 years old having some you know, issues, mental issues and you know, has a like a million-dollar of equity in her home, but doesn't have enough money to repair her refrigerator or house. So, it's like you talked about people living in poverty, you know, and she has no income other than a limited social security. And she has a million-dollar house and she's scared to sell it and she's you know, so this is where the reverse mortgage can unlock the equity and give people a lifestyle that they've earned and in her case her husband earned this home and she's living there literally in abject poverty for no reason. She's not impoverished in that she has the wealth, but she's impoverished in terms of lifestyle she's in and it's not healthy beyond poor, it's just not healthy to live like that, right? Not have a refrigerator in your house. What is she doing to eat? How's she sustaining herself? So, look, I really appreciate Harlan taking time to taking a little bit longer than I should. Really appreciate you again. The book definitely a must get. You were nice enough to send me a copy Home Equity and Reverse Mortgages. The Cinderella of the baby boomer time. I love the way you put that. I don't know. I don't know if I'd go with that cuz Cinderella how did she live happily ever after or did she did the clock strike 12 and she went back to where she was? I'm not sure how that works out, but

30:35 Well, Cinderella was Cinderella was not invited to the ball and he she ended up being the star of the story. Reverse mortgages have not been invited to the retirement ball and we will end up being the star of the story.

30:45 I like that. Okay, I need to get up a Okay, well, I get the book. Harlan Accola is the national director of reverse mortgages for Movement Mortgage. Been on podcast before, back again. Harlan, thank you so much for sharing with us. You want more from Harlan, we'll put his contact information down below. Phone number 580 reverse or [phone number]. And on the website, you can go to movement.com/reverse. It'll pull up a picture of this handsome guy and a bunch of information about reverse mortgages so you can either if you're wealth manager looking to get involved with them or you're an originator looking to get involved with them, you can find your path. Harlan, thank you again for your time today with us. I really appreciate it.

31:21 Bill, I really appreciate the opportunity to talk about my favorite subject. Thank you. And for the rest of you, this is the Reverse Mortgage Podcast. We get together every episode, talk usually with originators, but in this case, the director of a large company to give us an idea of where the market's headed, where it should head, opportunities for all of us to do a better job. Hope you enjoyed it. Love to get your feedback. Love to get your comments. Subscribe, like, send me a message if I can help. Reach out to me at Bill Gross Probate on social media. As always, make today your best day ever. Thanks so much.