Probate Court, Local Rules and Probate Litigation, with Attorney Joshua Driskell

0:00 Distinction between just getting an attorney in Probate or probate litigation and getting somebody who really is a specialist and really knows the business they had the great privilege of being on a panel recently with Robert Hall & Associates accounting firm to me really one of the top probate attorneys in Southern California in the Pasadena area Joshua Driskell of Lagerlof law firm and so he's been nice to join us here today Joshua thank you so much for coming on Probate Weekly of course thanks Bill thanks for having me I appreciate it how do you end up in probate real estate as an attorney versus all the other areas of law yeah you know being an attorney is sort of like whichever job you get out of law school is sort of how you get pigeonholed sometimes and the first job that I had coming out of law school was for a firm that did a ton of estate planning a ton of trust Administration a lot of real estate work corporate work and probate and so it's really the only world I've ever known I'm licensed in several States and have handled probates and all of those places and you know I started it I really liked it probate scares some attorneys for some reason because it's you know it's got court involved it has you know people looking over your shoulder and all sorts of stuff so I always found that fun you get you're getting in front of the same judges a lot they get to know you which is very different than you know civil you know civil type law where you know in LA county for example there's 100 judges just in the Downtown Courthouse there's only five probate judges so you get to see these people a lot so that's always you know been really attractive and really fun it's so funny to say I literally have a listing tomorrow being confirmed at court and to me I feel like a football team where you practice all week and then you go for the game and you know I dress differently and pack differently and get down there early and I'm excited I'm talking to Realtors® who theoretically might have a customer to overbid I'm trying to encourage them saying hey it's fun I'll buy a coffee come down to meet me I expected and they're scared most people are scared to get in front

2:02 Of a judge it must have been scary to agree for you when you started how did you get how did you work yourself through that trial by fire you just have to go down there I remember the first time I was in Probate Court yeah it is like it's a foreign world and anybody that's done work in civil you know the Civil type attorneys they're like fishes out of water in Probate it's got its own set of rules it's got its own norms and things like that and law you know turning to attorney we have a phrase of called you know called being Hometown and really what that means is you're totally out of out of your element and you had somebody run circles around you because they knew the rules that you did so we see that a lot in Probate so you know somebody High whether it's probate litigation or it's just even probate Administration somebody will you know they'll call their friend who's an attorney and they'll go down oh I can handle that sure and they end up making a huge mess of it delaying it litigation's even worse because you know they're totally out of the out of the water from a rules perspective and it's really not to their benefit so you know if any anything you should always use somebody who's you know a probate expert somebody who's practicing in that court all the time yeah I say in real estate I don't know that you have to on a standard full Authority probate unless there's litigation or objectors certainly on a court confirmation I think that's where you really need to find somebody who's going to help you with attorneys you know I used to be in court every day and I'd see like the really fancy attorney with a fancy suit and I'm looking online on my web phone he went to Harvard Law School and he looks all great he's got the two thousand dollar briefcase and then the and the judge says did you clear the probate notes and he's like probate notes what are those yeah I don't know what those are and you know okay great and then you said and then as an attorney waiting for my case to get called and I go ahead and grab a cup of coffee because I know now that it's going to be a few minutes before my case

4:04 Is called exactly yeah as a result of that do you end up getting business referred to by other attorneys that don't practice probate is that part of or is it your firm's big enough to get that or how does that work yeah absolutely and I actually get work from other probate attorneys our firms sort of known from very messy probates we probably do you have 200 probates a year we do a lot so chances are and 200 probates a year we're going to see the issue at least once before right whatever the case may be and I have handled probates of all complexity level you know the simple ones the really complicated ones so you know attorneys know that and the probate bar is relatively small so they will you know refer work to me or to the firm and say look I know you guys can figure this out you know there's got to be a solution here somewhere kind of thing and sometimes in Probate or any area blob but in particularly in Probate there's not a cookie cutter perfect solution you may have to figure out okay what's the best approach to sort of getting in here and getting in front of the judge if there's an issue or whatnot because it's not always going to line up exactly with a statute code section or something so you need somebody who has experiences in front of the court a lot to kind of guide you there you know I was once in court and I watched a case where normally on a California limited Authority you can't sell the property for less than 90 of the appraisal the inventory and appraisal report and I saw a judge you know agree based on certain extenuating circumstances approve it and I said wow the coach says you can't do that but the judge just did it and I had a case later with another attorney about a year later and the situation came up we had to sell it quickly and below the price we couldn't get the parental done I said well I know that the judge can't do it now the code says they can't but the judge can do whatever the judge wants to do right as long as it makes sense and as long as it's in the best interest of the state how do you kind of play those lines how do you decide when to push the envelope obviously some

6:07 Things you've seen and you learn from experience other you kind of a sense of it how do you kind of play that line a little bit yeah well you're right at the end of the day the judge can sort of do whatever they want right now could somebody appeal that decision could there be some other mechanism where it could ultimately be a problem maybe right but for the most part you know judges are empowered to make decisions like this every day probate court is a court of equity right and that is a distinction from you know a contract dispute right if you if you've ever been involved in something like that's a court of law that they're looking at the contract they're just they're determining did you say you were going to show up on January 5th and you know put a new driveway in yes did you show up on January 6th yes okay you breached the contract right end of story in that simple example when it comes to a probate court probate Court's a court of equity and they're really looking at what is fair in these circumstances what's right you know best on you know this circumstance so very different and you know that's usually what you're appealing to in a lot of these situations is that what is right in light of all of the circumstances what's going to get the most money in the pocket of the beneficiaries you know so on and so forth so yeah I've seen judges make all sorts of decisions like that now you mentioned I think that you're licensed in several other states do you mind sharing which fences are sure Ohio primarily is my other state that I do a lot of work in also in Michigan but do very do a lot less I've actually let my license go inactive there did a lot of work when I worked in Ohio and Ohio I guess the biggest thing to take away from that is every state is very different on probate right or any areas of law but in particular you know probate is very driven by the state law and then by the county that you're in even in LA right where we have a lot of different counties around us L.A County Kern County all that even though they're playing from the same rule book the judges are doing things very different in the counties so you really need also and in

8:10 Addition to having somebody who is you know a probate expert you want to have someone who's an expert in that county that you're in because it's really important I think you're right and I think knowing those local rules and procedures and if you can even know the judges that's such a big Advantage I know in La it seems to me that almost every judge almost every time will delay foreclosure if it's to the benefit of the estate almost seemingly without any reason in an Orange County I've seen no I've seen judges say Hey you had your you had your 90-day notice you had your notice of trust do you sell no that's the law they had Fair notice and the letters and like you would never hear that in Los Angeles but that's more common that's the rule but more common in Orange County can you think of any other differences between counties that stand out that point to the importance of knowing the local County or local rules yeah a lot of it's administrative like for example in some counties you have to file an original death certificate with the petition for probate some counties you don't different levels of publication in different counties they often all these Counties have different local forms that you have to fill out but you picked up on the probably the biggest difference which is how the counties are in utilizing their discretion right because that issue that you brought up which was probably an ex-part a request to you know temporarily restrain the lender from you know completing a foreclosure is at the judge's discretion right they look at that and they say okay am I going to restrict this company's rights or this person's rights over the estate and basically benefit the estate in light of what the contract says you're absolutely right in L.A County they will do that pretty much every time at least once maybe even twice on the same piece of property in Orange County and some of the other counties around La no you better show that the estate did some really dramatic things to try to keep this from going into a foreclosure and you know but for something outside the

10:14 Estates control they would have paid L.A County not so much so those are examples where you really want to know where you're at and you know talk to somebody who's experienced to figure out okay is this even going to work here in LA county right well just real quick let's do a couple of administrative stuff this is Probate Weekly we do this every Thursday 4 P.M Pacific 7 P.M Eastern we live stream it on YouTube and Facebook if you're watching a live stream feel free to put your questions there and we'll answer them we'd love to have people come on live and participate because that's really how we all learn better I'm a practitioner I'm not selling data I met someone coaching I'm learning from talking to Joshua sharing with you hopefully and maybe help you create some business for him as well but my goal here is for us all to learn by being better at our business a couple quick resources you can register and come on the call live on Zoom via probateweekly.com probateweekly.com is the website you can see the past episodes they're all recorded at episodes dot Probate Weekly.com episodes probablyweekly.com on Facebook we have a Facebook group that's free probate experts we have attorneys from the country we have real estate agents and investors from the country and we have families petitioners that come in ask questions and get leads there for Real Estate so love to have you participate this is meant to be participant if I see Lynn on a YouTube thank you with the with a shout out and love to have you guys if you like it please like it if you want to subscribe to it love to have subscribed to it and participate so Joshua when if you were getting advice this is one of the challenges I see that I can't really speak to but you I'm gonna give you a little bit of a platform because you're a success and such if you're giving advice to an attorney who is struggling in their practice because they're doing a lot of things none of them particularly well I think you would say they're going to do better by picking an area and focusing in on that's hard to do when you're building your business because you have to kind of give up what looks like a case to spend time how do you encourage somebody to develop that expertise in one area and the same street with real estate agents how do you encourage

12:16 Somebody to say hey just get through that initial period in the long run it works out better for you yeah absolutely and I know if you're starting out and you're trying to develop an expertise I know it can seem counterintuitive to tell you know to focus down right because I think you the feeling or the inclination is to try to say well I do all of this right I can I can do your probate I can do your estate planning I can oh I'll sue that contractor for screwing up your driveway I'll do this I'll do that and the reality is you might be able to do those things and you might be able to do them all well but generally speaking when you are advertising that you can do that those number numbers of things you will you'll lose people right because people want to hire experts that they think can get things done that they are going to be able to you know exactly how to handle something and go from there so the way I've always looked at it is you can have a few areas of expertise like for example I do a lot of estate and Trust work that's probably the bulk of my practice but I do a lot of it corporate and tax work you know a lot of real estate work and depending on my audience or depending on you know the issue at hand maybe I'll focus on one over another but the other thing is there's nothing stopping you from doing those other areas even if your focused you know let's say you laser focus on being a probate attorney you're still going to have a lot of people come to you for other issues that are really you know that maybe you can handle because you might be the only attorney they know or you might be somebody that you're an attorney that they trust or you're someone like that so just like Bill if somebody came to him to sell a piece of property that wasn't in a probate he's not going to tell him to go pound sand he's going to say okay sure whatever just like if somebody came to me and said all right hey can you handle my X Y and Z and it's something that I know I can handle confidently sure I can do that but I but I'm not going to advertise it in the same way people know me as a trust in a state attorney probate whatever so you know I know it seems counterintuitive but it really does pay

14:20 Dividends when people start to you know recognize you in connection with a specific area of law or a specific type of practice so that's my thought there one of the questions I get a lot as I talk to you know real estate agents around the country is they'll ask me a question about probate That's Unique or estate planning unique in their state or their area and I'll say to them well you know that's a great opportunity to call an attorney if you know one you know nobody wants to be called to be pigeonholed for referrals but I think we all like to help somebody when we're when you see somebody making an effort to build their business and participate what would your imagination What would your recommendation be should a real estate agent looking to build has a legitimate question for the client feel comfortable reaching out to an attorney invite them to Coffee invite them to lunch or just a phone call or what will be the proper way to reach out and get it to build that relationship yeah I think they should they absolutely should I mean I talk to ancients all the time talk to other attorneys CPAs all the time sometimes it's as simple as just being a resource and answering their question right knowing that look you know they're handling this case or they're handling it's not they're not so far out of their debt that they're going to refer this client over to me but they're having a little bit of struggle in one area or another that I you know I have no problem helping people with that because I would want somebody to help me if I didn't know the answer to something but you're right bill it is a great opportunity to get to know an attorney and you'll probably have really good luck if it's if it's hey you know you email somebody with a basic area of the question hey I have some you know I have a client with this issue we're having we're stuck here there may be an opportunity to assist on this for you can you help me can I attend spend 10 minutes and ask this question you're likely to really get a really good response and then depending on how you're connecting with that person right maybe it's a good opportunity to invite them to lunch or coffee because you know just like clients do business with people they know like and trust people refer business to people

16:23 They know like trust and if you can you know get your foot in the door through a question and then start to ask more about their practice and then you know inevitably they're going to ask about yours and you know it's a way of kind of communicating how you might be mutually beneficial to each other because that's really key right if you're just call and you say hey I want to sell all your probate real estate you're not going to get very far right but if you are showing how you're able to you know be mutually beneficial to them hey how can you help me how can I help you now you have a much higher likelihood of getting somewhere let's put a little bit to estate planning rather than probably I think I enjoy probate a lot more then I believe Joe's the business as a real estate agent but I think estate planning as avoiding probate the preventive side of the business right but it's more than that it's really about helping people focus on their goals and their family relationships and all that so talk a little bit about you know is that primary business that people come to you do you do you know reach out to offer because I find people don't spend enough time thinking about those things they don't spend time planning on those things until they have a problem then they're calling you on the phone desperate right we don't spend time preparing for problems we spend too much resolving how do you or do you are you able to help people get into the preventive mode rather than the reactive mode yeah thankfully I mean I have a lot of clients that are already in that right they're thinking about it they're looking at it you know and sometimes there are clients that just aren't ready for it maybe they're in a life mode where they're not it's not of concern I think education is key there you know letting them know what and what we're talking about prevention we're talking about really cost avoidance and time Awards right you're operating in the probate space you know it's slow and it's expensive when you compare it to the typical trust administration of assets of the same of the same type usually probate is more expensive than it would be to administer a private trust yeah so you know if somebody's driven by cost or

18:28 Somebody's driven by you know who they're leaving behind make sure that they're not leaving them a mess and that it's going to be difficult for them you know that's when we really find that we have the best success on trying to get somebody to do some preventative in advance estate planning because otherwise you know they haven't seen the need yet so I noticed I didn't notice this book when we met previously I just thought you were an attorney at the firm came there said you're the managing partner what does that mean what's a managing partner I mean I imagine a one-person part one person Law Firm is a fancy title but you guys are a legitimate firm what does a manager partner mean versus a regular daily Journey sure so we have a little over 100 people so I'm you know managing partner as you mentioned and really that means I'm the administrative you know chief administrative officer or chief executive officer of the firm as well as a practicing lawyer right so I oversee our firm structure our management I you know deal with our Acquisitions and all the business side of the firm as well as practice so it's fun I love it I love the kind of the two the two pieces of it yeah it's fun what's really fun this is fun yeah some days it's really fun today is really fun the what's really great though is that I get to put in place you know and talk about with experience the types of things that I'm ex I'm recommending for the client right so like in a merger and acquisition I do a good amount of that particularly driven by estate planning yeah we do that as a firm loan right that's how we've grown it's how we build our business that kind of thing when it comes to real estate right I'm a personal real estate investor I have properties of my own I could talk investor to investor right so those are really great things to be able to do and I also really enjoy the entrepreneur side right probably most of the people on here are entrepreneurs and they understand kind of how that works and that's what they

20:30 Want so it's really fun to be able to you know guide The Firm I mean this firm's been around since 1908 and under my leadership if you want to call it that we've grown to the largest that we've ever been our branding's the best that it's been we're in more locations we're in mostly States you know all those are things that you know when I started didn't exist and now do and you know it's a struggle every day to push it but it's really fun and I also love The Practice I get to see all of our different firms different groups which is really how do you allocate your time between the business management you know side the CEO hat and the attorney who works with clients that how do you how do you structure that or do you structure it is it just kind of flow well it's 100 planning and working 100 administrative you know just kidding it feels like that some days if it's 100 of both categories it's very much by the flow you know I'm really lucky that I have a c-suite so to speak you know we have a CO we have a director of administration HR Tech those used to all be me I mean it wasn't that long ago I was crawling under tables hooking up computers and now we've got you know three people in our I.T Department right so it's hard for me sometimes because you know I know we could do it much faster or easier better or whatever you want to say but I have to really rely on the team that I have which is fantastic they're awesome if I didn't have them I would be going crazy the same thing on the on the legal side yeah at this point I'm primarily overseeing work as opposed to doing the daily work although there are certainly things that I that I'm you know in the trenches doing because maybe it's really sophisticated or it needs you know by touch for some reason you know everybody knows you know the clients want to talk to the same lawyer you know so sometimes it's a lot of communication even though I might not be able to correct the direct work on something

22:34 Fun so in a firm your size you have attorneys who ultimately work for the firm represent the firm have to carry the firm's Banner yet at some level I'm sure they want to create their own career maybe book of business maybe long term their plan is to be is to leave how do you how do you handle attorneys building their business creating loyalty to the to the firm at the same time encouraging them to grow their business how do you manage that is it individual or is it do you have a company kind of culture on that yeah we're very we're very culturally entrepreneurial and I have pushed that from day one of my taking over we want them to build their business here right we I view what we have built in lagerloff as a platform from which they can practice right they can take their shingle and they can go really anywhere right they could go to a different firm of our same size they could go to a small firm they could go out on their own they can go to a big firm and you know attorneys by and large practice where they feel like they are getting the support that they need they have the resources that they need and that they are in a tier of firm that their clients that they are working with will hire them if you can satisfy and check all those boxes you typically won't lose people and we have done an amazing job of really being inventive and unique in the way that we try to comp attorneys to you know not be driven by leaving to try to do something different you know if somebody says Hey I want nothing more than to have my own firm someday that doesn't turn me off what I'd look at is okay how can I take what you want what you think practicing on your own is what is it about that it's attracting how can I show you what we have here that accommodates that you know we have a director of marketing you have somebody who will you know do all of your videos and do all sorts of stuff a lot of firms don't even have that even firms double our size don't have some instances so you know there is a way in which

24:37 Everybody can kind of practice from that perspective here which is really which is really unique and it's one of the points of the firm that has allowed us to keep people and to grow people and you know we have a number of attorneys that are in their 40th and Beyond the year of practice and this is the only firm they've ever worked well which is unique well I think this is those same principles apply in other businesses like real estate it's the same thing I have colleagues who want to start their own company and I'm a broker I've been independent I work on a platform kind of where you describe it that has everything I need for my business I'm not going to leave because it's all there if it wasn't I'd have to leave but yeah I see people sometimes get that the false idea well if I own the whole thing myself I have more well maybe but you're also gonna have to maybe create a lot and that recreating will distract you from your job so it seems to be a training is a very similar business-wise to the real estate practice yeah it's not it's not dissimilar to doctors either right they associate with a health system right they're that's and it's not because they couldn't open a doctor's office you know down the street and do everything themselves but the reality is in order to compete and to do those things right there's a lot of pieces to the puzzle and we as a firm provide a ton of resources to allow somebody to practice effectively and you know you get to spread that out over a number of attorneys as opposed to saying all right what want to do that you're gonna have to pay 12 Grand a year for that piece of software or whatever right one of the differences I think is that between your business and mind is everybody who goes into real estate assumes they're starting their business I think attorneys and probably doctors they're trained to be attorneys and or doctors and I think somewhere they're not given often the preparation for but you also have to build a career and or a business and I see so many I'm sure you see the same they go out on their own and they forget they have to build a business they just want to be attorneys and it doesn't always work out that way like you have to do something to run a business to support you or affiliate with it from a desert for you right yeah that's right and we have attorneys of

26:40 All kinds we have attorneys that have been on their own and you know come here in fact the call I had right before this was an interview for an attorney position it's been on his own for 15 years and now wants to join a firm and the reasons are kind of what I just alluded to it's I need to put on my I need a bigger platform to attract the clients that I want I don't have time to do all the management I'm running them I'm spending 50 60 of my time on management I should be building clients you know so on and so forth and then we have attorneys that really just want to they just want to you know almost nine to five right they just want to you know practice go home not think about the management the employee issues all of that and then where we have those attorneys that are really entrepreneurial and they are the ones that tell me no I want to make I want to start my own firm those are usually become our practice leaders or our practice shares right these they are running departments within our firm maybe they are running a different office for us which can be very analogous to your own shop right even though it's operating under our you know firm standards and they report to me and all of that they still have a lot of autonomy so we try to meet them where they are from that perspective it's very similar we're doing real estate really exciting well again and I think for those who are following this conversation part of this to give you an idea of the culture when you talk to attorneys you want to there's a whole variety from the country bumpkin single guy in an office he's been at it for 40 years he has the same business cards he got 40 years ago to work with a high-tech firm and really when you go into Joshua's firm they could be any of those because they have a wide variety within his from other firms they're all kind of the same and so you really want to understand there's a culture to attorneys you want to build a relationship and try to meet them where they are as a relationship this is meant to be a participant I'd love to have you guys ask questions participate I see coming out from during Raleigh North Carolina according to Rollins according to what's up man hey Bill hey Joshua thanks for sharing your time up I wanted to just really

28:44 Quickly give you a shout out and flowers because so much of the things that you've shared I've tried to you know put into practice just started really drilling into probate in November and you all see Bill is putting out so much awesome content and as I'm learning pro-based space I'm just what I learned I'll put it into like a vlog forum and I'm saying all the stage that I'm actually starting to get people reaching out to me because they're seeing my YouTube and then plus and so that had a lead reached out to me because she saw my YouTube work I also because of this community that you provided was able to find a referral for an attorney so that I could connect her with that lead and because of this community as well you're like hey be a professional make sure you give a warm handoff so we set up a zoom and I was able to sit with an attorney and watch the intake process and this is I'm getting to the question Joshua but during the process the attorney said something I thought was really awesome said that when you are giving those creditors and the claims are coming in make sure you negotiate every claim because with her experience many debt collectors will settle for pennies to the dollar particularly if it's a decedent account so I was wondering if there's any tips or strategies that you can provide when it comes to speaking to debt and creditors about negotiating on the debt down the estate sure and this is very State specific what state are you in Courtney North cackalack North Carolina got it okay so every state is slightly different right California is unique in that there are a few rules that make a little more challenging for creditors actually a little easier for us to negotiate things than there are in certain other states for example in California there is a one-year statute of limitations on the collection of debt from a decedent regardless of the estate was opened or not very interesting very weird sort of rule when you look at some of the others

30:47 You know other groups so you have to look at kind of what that is but I agree with that attorney completely you can you know you can negotiate those debts you can look at them and that really drives higher dollars in the door for the beneficiaries right I mean and that's something whether you get into ball get involved in that in the sale of real estate perspective or however you're in that you know those types of little things are super important and you know just like in bankruptcy a little bit of pushback from the estate can oftentimes result in them not even pursuing the claim at all because you know depending on how much it is it might not be worth it to them if they're only owed 1500 two grand they're probably not going to get a lawyer they're not going to go in to file the claim I gotta do this you do that two or three times you know you've now netted the estate you know 10 grand right or something like that so it can be a big it can it can move the needle a lot great question so I'm glad to have Courtney on here Corey we this is a national platform and I advise real estate agents if you want to learn about probate go to the court go to the courthouse go to the filing room see what's there every State's different every county is different so Courtney goes into in Durham right Raleigh or Durham goes in makes friends with the clerk he has taken selfies with her she's giving him instructions and I said to him that's crazy but that would never happen in Los Angeles tour across Joshua that would never happen in Illinois you would never get a selfie with a clerk and have her no you wouldn't and you know that kind of goes into the second point I think kind of they kind of go along with your question Courtney is you know get make friends with these people at the court they are your they're your best friend from the perspective of how you know maximize things because you know because we have a smaller you know there's five probate judges for example you kind of get to know a lot of them and you can start to make some

32:48 Headway but you know where I practiced originally there was one Probate Judge that's all that they did and you know you got to know their clerk very well and in many counties and places in the country the there's only one judge period and he hears everything from here she hears everything from criminal cases to family law cases to probate cases so you know really getting a sense there that the clerks will walk you through it if they like you they will really they'll go the extra mile to help you they'll call you or they'll tell you now you got to check that box don't check this box you know that kind of thing yeah but yeah but yeah no in L.A you're never going to get a picture a selfie with you're gonna take advantage of these small town ways oh yeah exactly well good thanks Cody thanks for jumping in man great okay so again and this meant to be participant so feel free if you're on the YouTube big YouTube group today feel free to put questions there on watch the chat box you guys are talking to each other which is fine but you have a chance to talk to really one of the leading probate and estate planning experts in Los Angeles if not the country here so feel free to jump in and ask questions so let's talk a bit about we talked about probate we talked about estate planning let's talk about litigation a little bit it seems to me that when by the time they know it's litigation but if they come to you and they're it's become litigation it seems so hard to project an outcome that must be almost impossible to reject what the investment or cost is gonna be in terms of legal fees how do you advise you know I you know I felt appropriate of my own everything was fine until my cousin brother raised his hand now we're going at it he hired an attorney we're fighting each other and you look at that go well it's definitely a litigation situation how do you assess ask like what the costs are going to be and give them as you know set expectations for the client yeah you're right I mean as soon as the litigation you know hand is raised kind of all bets are off on cost because you don't really know how the other side is going to react one thing I can say is that almost

34:51 All of these probate litigation fights and which were involved in many are driven primarily by personal feelings they're not driven by a decision on cost right you know somebody peed in your Wheaties 30 years ago and you're still mad about it and now you're going to be able to really come exact your revenge now that mom or dad has died and you know out comes all the things you know you let the air out of my bicycle when I was nine all of that stuff and that's really what drives a lot of that litigation so depending on what your role is in the in a probate case right really trying to hone in on the value that you're bringing or the cost associated with either the litigation or what you're fighting about you know I've had cases where the clients were fighting about who would be appointed the executor and the account and that's a common fight but the only asset of the estate was a an account of 200 fifty thousand dollars now that just happened to be just over the limit you know of assets that had to be probated and you know we're I'm not handling that case personally but it's still going on and it's about three years into that fight and there's still no one's appointed as the executor they're and it's 250 000 I mean they could have taken that split it invested it and been way money ahead but it's not about that it's about who's winning right so if you can try to re redirect and get people back to you know what the focus is look this is in the state we're trying to split it up let's look at it from a cost-effective perspective great but it's challenging for a lot of people to do to do that it's very emotional you know in many ways it's very similar to if you're if you're handling any kind of you know cases that are resulting from a divorce right somebody's being forced to do something they don't want to do and they're not

36:53 Going to do it willingly so you know you have to really kind of kind of stay the course try to keep them you know keep them aligned on that in the litigation one of the places where I try to play a role is being able to work with both sides the challenge is if one attorney introduces you looked at maybe as their side on the flip side you know if we're professionals and hope for those of us on the call are working on being better at this than the average Realtor® then we have some skills on how to communicate better with both attorneys to get a better outcome for both sides at the end what would you look for if somebody came to you and said hey you know I'm a real estate agent yes it's true I met you know the other attorney on the other side but this is an area that I'm experiencing what are you looking for before you're going to say okay you could be a fair person and handle the deal for both of us what as an attorney would you look for it before you're going to agree to that third party vendor yeah I mean I'm looking for someone that regardless of the drama associated with the case right is going to be able to maximize the value of the sale right because ultimately that's what we need at the end of the day right we need the property to be sold and the proceeds to be split and as long as there are more proceeds to split than there otherwise would be right that's that person's going to get a fair shake from my perspective very rarely would I would I push and say no we're not going to use that person so long as there's evidence that they have done real estate sales before because they are a little bit of a different animal right and that they have a platform they're associated with a brokerage that's going to allow them to maximize the exposure and you know get the fair market value for the property that's really the key right because you know what's that no somebody else oh okay I knew themselves back to that the you know the whole you know you guys are all Realtors® so you know that you know CMAs are great broker price opinions are great but the only way you're really going to know what the value of the

38:55 Property is to expose it to the open right and you know once you've done that then you know and you've done an effective way then that's great by definition if it's not on the open market you're not gonna get top dollar there's no there's just no way to do that and I think as a as a broker I also shop for my investor clients and the one thing I look for is probate cases limited authority none of the MLS like the I check every one of those because there's enough of them that end up being good value for investors and there's a reason why you don't put on the market is probably because you want to get it for a cheaper price so yeah that's right fantastic well look I really appreciate the time I know I know you're busy and I'm really fortunate to have you on here today if somebody was interested in talking to you or your firm about estate planning or probate Administration or related things what's the best way to get in touch with you or your firm if you want to talk to me emails great I you know just like probably all of you addicted to it you know can't get away from it as hard as you try so email's perfect I can put it in the chat or Bill if you share it however you want to do that and perfect that looks like I was taken when I was in high school we're gonna go with that picture but yeah there's my contact information that phone number goes to the firm you know hotline but or the front desk but the email goes directly to me and happy to be a resource whether it's in California or Ohio those are the two primary areas even though I've been working other places I know those two areas best you know California is a beast so if you have something that comes up happy to be happy to be a resource for you fantastic well Josh I really appreciate you know having you know met you recently on the a real estate Symposium and really today giving us a deep dive on the business of Law and probate and Trust Administration thank you so much for your time today I really appreciate everything you've done for us absolutely happy to do it and happy to help anybody that needs thank you thanks all

40:57 The best happy rushing you this is Probate Weekly we do this every Thursday at 4 P.M Pacific Time 7 P.M Eastern we live stream it on YouTube Facebook LinkedIn it's recorded as well if you put questions there I'll check them up afterwards and if appropriate route to Our Guest Josh or whoever or try to answer myself also a couple free resources just to point out if you want to sign up and come in on the live stream to participate love to have you do that's at probateweekly.com sign up there and there's a handsome guy that looks like my picture from high school and then there's all the details we also if you'll see the past episodes you go to episodes dot Probate Weekly.com and you can see already the next ones kind of teed up and ready to go and then in Facebook we have the group probate experts we have about 2 200 members who get together share leads ask questions report victories ask for help and our goal here is to create a national platform a real estate agents investors and professionals to service our customers better so thank you Ray for being here today I really appreciate it thanks again to Joshua Courtney always great to see you and we'll talk to you guys soon all the best bye