Estate Sales Simplified, with Michael Fry of Brown Button Estate Sales

0:01 As a real estate broker dealing in probate and trust real estate, I deal with the real estate, but often included inside the real estate is a bunch of what we would call technical terms stuff or personal property. And it can range from all kinds of things. And the fact that ranges has different expertise areas in each and so you want to find somebody who both can physically handle the location you're working with as well as the kind of things you're dealing with. And I'm really excited to have here today successful entrepreneur in that space, Michael Fry from Brown Button Estate Sales. Michael, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me, Bill. I appreciate it. I could tell from your website and you know, haven't talked to you before that this is just not some side gig. This is something that you've worked in and you've been in this business for quite a while. Yeah, that's right. Brown Button has been doing estate sales for 14 years now. And then our other company is Circle Auction. We handle items that should be sold through a national auction site versus a local estate sale. Now, geographically, what areas do you service? Currently we're in Kansas City and we're presently opening a market in St. Louis yet to come. And so, I think for those who are watching, this is a good chance to learn from an entrepreneur what they're doing and what their best practices are and also how we can engage in dialogue with our vendors and help us learn their business, how to work better with them, both to use them as a vendor and to set ourselves up for referral sources. So, let's talk about how does typically a job come to Brown Button? Is it through a professional? Is it through a consumer? I know you guys have a website, you have marketing. What's the most common way that people come to you?

1:32 You know, most people realize that they have a problem. Ultimately, why most people are doing estate sale is to get a house empty so the house can be sold. For most of our clients, the real estate is the big asset and it's how do we get the stuff out so that we can we can realize the sale of that asset. And so, a lot of our referrals do come through Realtors®. You know, people understand the real estate process because they've bought and sold a few houses in their time, but don't know what to do with the stuff. And so, often the Realtors® reach out or they'll just do Google searches. And one of the things that's really unique about our industry is it's unlicensed and unregulated. And so, most people just don't know that. Consumers don't know that. And so they're trying to do an apples to apples comparison, but they don't know. My industry is a bit wild west. Totally wild west. Every, you know, I'm in West Los Angeles, and every time I've engaged a company to deal with anything. Each one's different. Some do certain things, some don't do certain things. Some want to bring things to their retail shop, others want to do an on-site premises. Some focus online, some focus online, get traffic, but really want to sell in person. There's a million different ways to work that. So talk a little bit about your company's philosophy. You come in for a job, you look at a house, and you evaluate it. You know, what makes you different than some of the other companies that you've that you've seen. Yeah. So our company, just like almost any other, is going to offer a free inhome consultation. So we'll come out, we'll walk through, we'll understand what the client has, and then we'll talk through our services. So some of the challenges with the industry is that it's they don't have certified appraisers, they're not fully insured, and they don't actually have employees. And so what's pretty crazy is 78% of the industry doesn't have workers comp. So three out of four estate sales out there, the client has all the liability for the estate sale staff in the house.

3:24 And I'm sure that's something they just don't realize. And so the ways Yeah. The ways we're different is proper insurance, certified appraisers, and then and then this is what we do full-time. A recent survey said half the industry does this part-time. And so that's a big difference. Yeah. And I the company I've worked with here in Los Angeles has employees. Some are parttime, some are full-time. They have workman's comp. Like they're legitimate companies set up. Obviously, if somebody's doing this as a side gig, they can do it cheaper, right? But they're putting they're putting into your pocket the liability that you don't even know about. Now, if somebody said to you, "Hey, I'm cheaper by x amount of money, but I'm not getting insurance that saves you a couple hundred. Are you okay with that?" You can make an informed decision. The problem is most people don't know to ask that. So talk a bit. That's right. Yeah. Workman's comp insurance. Are you is your company bonded as well? We are bonded. Yeah. And then a general liability as well as the full workers comp. The other thing our company has because we deal with high-end items removed from estate sales to auction is we also have inventory coverage. And so anytime an item of the clients is in our possession, it's fully insured by us. And again, just that's not the norm in the industry unfortunately. And I think having that is a piece of mind that people don't appreciate. I had an example once where there were like these decorative lamps on the driveway. I don't know what you call like you know you had lights then you had like this piece that went over it. Somebody took it off and threw it on the ground and broke it. And it has very intricate crystal. It was a high-end house. Very intricate crystal and such. And there were two and one was broken but you can't you can't make one because they don't match, right? And the buyer was reasonably upset because they bought the property as is which would include that the seller was a probate sale. The you know the seed had passed the seller you know had never even done the house didn't care felt bad. Well who's responsible? Well they said well you had an estate sale and they're responsible.

5:22 And the nice thing was I said well look the insurance the state company is bonded insured. That doesn't mean they did it. That just means they're legitimate. They're not they have to do some sort of a background check when they hire somebody. They're not just bringing anybody who's going to and there's probably some neighborhood kid who, you know, for fun having been a former neighborhood kid that did mischief. I'll admit something I would do. I'm sorry to admit. I'm ashamed to admit, but just having the insurance and the it just creates a different level of we're not just some side gig. We're professionals in this field. And as a professional myself, I'm working I want to work with professionals. I don't want to work with people on a psyche because that reflects poorly on me. Right? And it's the same in the real estate market that you don't really want to work with a Realtor® who's very part-time who this is their side hustle because they're just they're not going to be up todate with best practices. It's the same with the estate sale industry. If this is someone's side hustle, they're not going to have the customer following. They're not gonna have the email list or the social media reach or the knowledge base to price appropriately and run it successfully. And so that's one of the questions I would always advise consumers, executors to be asking is, you know, is this your full-time job? And I would look for an estate sale company that does at least twice two sales a month. That's saying, you know, this is their normal gig, 24 a year. That would be a minimum that I would be looking for if I was hiring an estate sale company. Yeah, I can see it takes a week or two to set one up and a week or two afterwards to set up and so at some point you have to have a couple teams and there's fr there's different formats. There's franchises or independent people. But I do think you know one of the things I know in any business people who do things regularly do a lot of it do it better. You know, I in my business, I don't get that many high-end listings in probate.

7:11 And when there is an occasional, you know, I don't necessarily have the connections to even get a chance to bid on it. But I noticed they don't do a very good job. Why? Because I do a bunch of small houses every month. And because I do a bunch, I have to do things well versus if you do one every three years or every one a year. How good do you have to be? And in terms of procedures and processes. So, same with the estate sale business. So, let's talk about what's the most common things that you're selling that create the most value for an estate. Meaning, I know there's a wide variety of things you come across, but what are the one or two or three items that really somebody should look at and say, is there value here for the estate and is this resellable or not? Yeah, it's a great question. One of the things we see, you know, occasionally we'll see people try to run their own estate sale. They think, oh, this is easy. I've done a garage sale. Typically what folks do is they overpric the furniture and then they underpric the smalls that are potentially really valuable. And so, you know, there's this kind of term called brown furniture, you know, just that these big pieces, the ammo, the wardrobes, they're just they're not selling. Even dining room sets, the value is diminished as a younger generation entertains differently. Yeah. But you'd be you'd be surprised as we get into vintage items, certainly jewelry, record albums, small but high-end decor like crystal or sterling. That's often where the money in the estate is. And people who aren't experts don't know to look for those items. So, I have I have a friend in the estate sale industry and she went to a competitor sale just for fun. And she was just seeing what they had there. And this a few years ago, she was signing with a check. And they said, "Oh, yeah.

8:54 We have a cup of pens right there on the desk. Just grab one." Well, she pulled one out and the pin in their cup holder was a Mont Blanc pen. Wow. Buy it. Hundreds and hundreds of dollars. And they were just using it as a check signing pen. So, she signed her check, she hand it to them, and she's like, "Hey, can I keep the pen?" They're like, "Yeah, whatever." And they just they didn't know to recognize the value on behalf of the client. And the client's the one who's the lost in the process. I don't know if you knew who Gary Vaynerchuk is. Gary V. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, he famously does estate sale or garage sale or whatever term he uses where he said, "If I had to if I had to make money, start from scratch, this is what I would do." And there's certain things that he knows real well, certain types of collectibles that he looks for that in some of you past, you know, they may have their grandkids Pokemon cards, not realize the value of them and sell them on the cheap. And so I think what this speaks to is and to what you mentioned as well is that not only have things changed the value, but I think the number of things that have value is smaller and makes it more important to try to maximize the value of those things that are valuable. And I think in the past you can sell a whole house of furniture and lose some of the collectible items in the mix because you're getting enough money it wasn't a big deal. Now, I don't know about you, but like for here in Los Angeles, people have a piano and it may be beautiful. I mean, it really may be. It may be a source of great pride, pleasure, joy. It was great grandma's. Everybody sat around it at Christmas and sang songs and loved it. But in Los Angeles today, you're lucky if you can get somebody to take it away for free. Absolutely. Yeah.

10:28 I mean, you can go on Facebook Marketplace and find a hundred pianos that people are saying it's free if you can take it. And so, yeah, someone who does this every day, week after week, knows the pricing, knows how to price it appropriately, so it moves. Our average estate sale has between two and 3,000 individual items that need priced. Whoa. And so, we need Whoa. Your a let's stop for a second. Your average estate sale has 2 to 3,000 items that you have to determine a price on, correct? And then somehow market in a way that's effective for potential buyer whether it be paper format something and as well as keep track of it. Right. That's absolutely right. Yeah. And that's actually another problem with the industry writ large. If they're just running a cash box from Walmart, there's no there's no accountability at the end of the day. And especially if we're in a true estate situation, there's a trust involved. The documenting of the sales process is just very critical. And that's a question that's important to get below the surface. What kind of accounting is the estate sale company providing? Are they giving a list of high-v value items sold or is it just here's money that we made and there's no you know no accountability for it. Well, you know, at probate, I think that you're obligated to marshall the resources and if you if you're selling things, account for the fact that you got it and where the money goes afterwards. And so, whether it be the state sale company or an appraisal or somebody has to make that assessment, put it in writing, put their name on it, and then compare it to the receipts and see what you end up with at the end. Otherwise, you're going to have a hard time [unclear] or getting your report, at least in California, getting your report signed off and finished. I think the other thing is that another way to use the professional is sometimes giving bad news is I, you know, as a Realtor® when we price houses, I'm always careful not to say, I think your house is only worth a million dollars, but to say, you know, what's the market telling you it's worth based on these sales at a million dollars? What's the market saying? And

12:31 Not me. I'm on your side. The market's the bad guy. And I think we make a mistake when we deal with personal property that people say, "Well, I have this, you know, piano. Is worth three, four, $5,000 inside. I'm saying, "Dude, if we can get somebody to take it, I'd be thrilled, right?" But I can't say that to them. I need a professional estate sale person as you price everything out. And you might want the piano there for your estate sale to put things on. It's a It's a pretty piece of furniture. It adds some class to the whole living room. Maybe not. I don't know. But you tell them it's not worth anything. I don't want to tell them that. Yeah. That's such an important part of our job is to walk through, especially if someone's dealing with a delicate life situation. You know, they've just lost a parent or they've transitioned a parent into assisted living. To walk through because the mental and emotional value that they place on the item might be very different than the market value. And that's one of the, you know, bringing in a professional, I certainly care about their situation, but I'm not emotional about the goods in the same way. And so I can dispassionately host a professional sale for them, maximize the value, and separate it from the emotional side. But yes, that's such a challenge is to navigate those expectations. You know, certainly there was a period of time in the 80s and 90s where, you know, people would get in and they buy collectibles that were going to go up in value. And some people saw this as part of their retirement. So even things like Franklin Mint, the collector plates, they come in with a certificate.

14:07 Those were purchased for 40 $45 and they sell for two bucks today if you're lucky. And it's, you know, just understanding the market, what's changed over time, and how to maximize the value for the clients. It seems like in all these things, there's way more of it. Fewer and fewer though, are worth a lot more. Like baseball cards, I think, is another example where I used to play with them in the '9s and, you know, you had prices for whole sets or whole teams or, you know, an individual player. Now there's so much stuff that none of is worth much at all. But the one rookie of, you know, show or the one rookie of Judge is worth a fortune. And then even there, some go up, some go down. So, it's like fewer things worth more. It takes a discerning eye. So, again, just go back a little bit. If you if you walked into your average house of personal property, obviously jewelry, I think, would be the most likely place for the most cash. If they have good jewelry, that's always going to be. What would be a second or third thing that you look at first to say to maximize value, this is what we want to focus on? You know, certainly art has a potential to be to be of significant value. We handled an estate in Kansas City this last year. It was for two adult nephews of their uncle. He passed. He had a house full of stuff, full of art. We identified one single painting that's going to auction for half a million dollars. And they just had no idea. You know, there's most of the art is decorative and didn't have much value. This one piece was very significant. And so, that jewelry and art are the categories that have the greatest upside potential. Another category that's selling extremely well is anything truly mid-century, not reproduction mid-century, but, you know, truly mid-century. Whether that's designer pieces, decor or furniture. Mid-century 1900s, mid-century 1800s.

16:05 1900s. Yeah, mid-century modern, I should say. Okay. Such a modern. Okay. Wow. Okay. I didn't realize that stuff was a vi that retro look or that continues to sell strong whereas true antiques have just gone off a cliff. I mean they've they're down 90% of their value from the late 80s early 90s. And that's can be challenging to tell clients at times. Young people just don't value the antique look in the same way. And the midmar you talking about is more of a sleek design that's kind of current but it just has some history on it. To go back to the artwork. You know, this is a classic story because how many pieces of art were there in the entire in the entire house or collection? Hundreds. Okay. And of the hundreds, how many were worth your time to sell that you made more than 20 bucks on? Right. The majority not. Yeah. I mean, this was by far and away, you know, we look at the value in the home through the 8020 principle that 20% of the contents of the home are going to are going to account for 80% of the value. And so we want to focus on those 20. We want to elevate those 20 through our advertising. And that's how we get the client the most. Not by spending hours and hours on, you know, the junk. We'll get that price, we'll get it handled, but we really need to focus on the 20% that's going to get the client the most money. I'm not to be argumentative, but 8020 is a classic paro principle from a Italian philosopher. I'm thinking that like a number of businesses, it used to be more 8020. You're used to saying it, but I'm guessing it's more 9010 or maybe 955 today really in terms of the real value. Yeah, it is. And you know, I was just pulling out the standard principle, but yeah, I mean, it truly is a small minority of the items in a client's home account for the majority of the return. On that piece of art, was it obvious that was the valuable one based on where it was placed or how it was hung or was it kind of amongst other pieces and if you weren't paying attention, you might have missed it? You know, it was it was a bigger painting and it was an oil. So those are good indications of higher value, but no, I mean the clients

18:08 Had no idea. I mean because just the whole house is just packed full of stuff and so a lot of which are worthless and aren't going to go anywhere or any value. How I'm curious the other artwork, you know, do you is there are there companies I know there are like thrift companies will pay like five bucks a piece and buy 100 pieces of art. Is that how you get rid of that stuff or you know, we sell art every day through our estate sale through Brown Button and we're going to handle it. We're going to price it for what the market, you know, will bear. And for most decorative pieces, that's less than $100. And then when a piece is higher value, it has provenance, it has a known artist with collectible value, typically we're going to remove it from the estate sale, take it through the auction service that has national and international exposure. Interesting. So then it's just not our local market who's looking at it. It's collectors across the country, across the world who would be you know bringing its true market value. Fascinating. Fascinating. Okay. And so what is the most unusual item that shocked you as what it was worth? Like you got this piece, it came into your system and somehow you figured out what it was worth and you go, "Wow, I had no idea." Well, I mean it kind of goes both directions, high and low. So, one time we had a fossilized mastodon bone and that was worth a lot less than I thought it would be. Oh, wow. I can't remember quite off the top of my head, but hundreds to low thousands. You know, just not significant. We've run across a couple very interesting pieces. We had a piece of wedding cake from the 1860s. Wow. It looked like a charcoal briquette. It had spidery handwriting from great grandma. And there's really no market value for that at all. Just simply sentimental value. But then you know a lot you can find small pieces of decor that are easily overlooked that if the right designer made it, they can be worth a lot. You

20:11 Know, there's some mid-century pieces that can be in the many thousands and it's just a, you know, just a small little piece that on a coffee table amongst many other, you know, decor items that don't have much value. You have to really dig in. So, I'm a real estate agent. You know, I'm somebody who might, you know, reach out to you and call. I imagine there's other professionals. Well, what's the, what's the kind of the intake process? Somebody has a state sale. They're not sure what to do. Maybe they're going to use you. Maybe they have somebody else as well. Not sure if it's worth your time. What's the process look like? Yeah. So, we're always going to start by coming out and actually doing a walk through of the home. You know, we want to understand what's the value in the home. Is it marketable? Can we host a successful estate sale? I mean, we'll come out to homes after the family's been through and the extended family's been through and what's left is just is just thrift store quality. And there's no way for us to put in the labor, the advertising cost, and ultimately be successful or see any kind of financial return. So, it's that vetting process. And at that time, we're going to talk through our services in detail. So, every estate sale company does it a little bit different. But what's our process? How are we going to serve them? What's the time frame? And then something we're going to spend a lot of time talking about is how we care for the home. So, because so many of our referrals come through Realtors® and for most of our clients, the asset that has the most value at the end of the day is the real estate, how are we going to navigate this estate sale so it's successful, so it gets the house emptied while at the same time not causing any issues with the real estate so that it closes on time. It's pretty normal that within a week of the end of the estate sale, that house is going to close.

21:56 We're the last piece of the puzzle and so it's critical that the house be maintained through the estate sale process. So that can look like a couple different things. We have the ability to cover carpets with a plastic film. We our company actually has movers on site and so as high as large pieces of furniture are sold, our moving team is removing them from the home. We don't let the public do that. So those are some questions people should be asking as they're interviewing estate sale companies. Well, and if you're interested in talking to them directly about getting a consult, reach out to Michael. He's the owner of Brown Button Estate Sales. Phone number on the banner below or [email address]. And the website's Brown Button. And just kind of a reminder, this is the Executorium podcast where we serve executors all kinds of professionals, real estate agents, estate sale professionals, attorneys, all kinds. Executorium.com is a website, E-X-E-C-U-T-O-R-I-U-M and some has some great resources there and that's where we found Michael who's a provider. If you go to the directory of state providers and hit browse then you put in their county and state in his case Johnson County, Kansas. You pull up a brown button and you click on them and then it has nice already information about where they're located, their website, their contact information and then they can put what information. If you're a vendor, your first listing is free. Feel free to fill out your listing. And if you want more counties, you can pay more nominal fee for advertising. So, Michael, thank you so much for coming on today. I really appreciate you kind of explaining out and laying out for us the estate sale process and you wish you continued good luck in your business and thank you for supporting Executorium. Thank you, Bill. I really appreciate it. And for this Executorium podcast, we get together every week and talk about talk to professionals that service executors.

23:46 Whether you are one or need one, feel free to check us out. You continue the conversation on our Facebook group. Executorium podcast is a Facebook group. I'm Bill Gross at Bill Gross Probate and social media. If I can help anyway, please reach out. My Bill Gross probate. I'm also on Executorium in Los Angeles County. And as always, make today your best day ever. Thanks so much.