The Best Ways to Use a Reverse Mortgage, with Matt Allen of American Senior

0:01 Welcome to the Reverse Mortgage Podcast. I'm Bill Gross, your host. We get together every week with leading members of the industry, originators, management, vendors, in this case, a leading originator who's going to tell us the best ways to use reverse mortgage and the worst ways to avoid, Matt Allen of American Senior. Matt, thank you for joining us today.

0:19 Thanks, Bill. Super excited to be here with you. What's the best ways to use reverse mortgage? In my opinion, the best way to use the reverse mortgage is strategically, right? Not as a last resort. And there's so many different strategies that can be implemented and they're all very simple. And it can have a massive impact on a retirement plan for the better. Leave larger estates. And just being strategic because for most people, their home is their largest asset. And why are we not utilizing it in a retirement plan? And now you don't have to be part of the retirement plan. There's other ways to use it.

1:01 So the first best way I don't know if this if I could summarize this is to plan ahead rather than respond to crisis as they occur. Yeah. I you know unfortunately I think most people live for the day, right? Like I don't need a reverse mortgage today, but then tomorrow they do. Right now I'll look at it. Now that I need it, I'll look at it. The reality is had they implemented the reverse mortgage early on as part of an overall retirement plan you know along with you know their stocks, bonds, IRAs etc. The outcome can be significantly better and there's some really simple strategies. One of them is what we call the coordinated spend-down strategy which is working with your financial planner. If let's say on your annual review, your retirement plan is negative, right? It returned -10 or 20%. In that year, you don't draw any more money out of your retirement portfolio. You draw it out of the reverse mortgage, allow your portfolio to recover, then on your next annual review. Is it positive? Yes. Then stop drawing from the reverse, start drawing from your portfolio again. Because you don't want to be drawing out money when your portfolio is down cuz you're locking in losses and you your money may not last as long because you're drawing it out when it's already in a down market. So that's one of the simple strategies.

2:28 So let's talk about that for a little bit. So when your portfolio is down and there are some people experienced that of late depends what stocks you're in and such.

2:37 Yep. You're not if you need money every month or every year, you're going to it has to come from somewhere. Y and if the stocks go up and down, when they're down, that's going to force you to cash out those losses in that year in a year that you have maybe even less income where it might be more advantageous to take the loss in a year when you have more income. Maybe you sell a property and you have, you know, some gains you want to offset. And

3:01 So it forces you now you're making a decision for your cash flow needs rather than strategically what's best for your tax outcome of when you liquidate the stock. Is that kind of what we're talking about?

3:10 Sort. Yeah. So I mean there's different ways to look at it, right? If your portfolio is negative for the year like you said you don't want to lock in those losses. Maybe you do it. It's kind of dependent like you said you sold other property or you have additional income. You're high income. Maybe you do want to take those losses that year.

3:26 Right. The problem is though if you look at that then you are locking in those losses your money is not going to last as long because of you locking in those losses and taking that money out right it's not going to grow and so again everybody's situation is different I'm not saying that everybody should use the strategy

3:48 But it is worth talking to your financial planner your CPA to be like look what if we set up this other bucket of income, tax-free funds so that if these things happen right large expenses the market's down whatever if we can do better planning right your CPA can do better planning

4:11 You know if we got a long-term care event or health care costs we need to draw out $100,000 well your CPA could look at that and go

4:19 Well maybe we don't draw it all out of the portfolio maybe we only draw a portion out of the portfolio the rest of it from the reverse mortgage so we can keep you in a lower tax bracket.

4:29 So again, it allows everybody including the borrower, the owner of the home, along with their CPA, their financial planner, maybe even their estate planning attorney to do better planning,

4:40 Right? The more better planning we could do, the longer we're going to have, you know, money is going to last. And you know, leaving a larger estate through this planning. Well, I think the line of credit feature of most reverse mortgages is kind of like a universal tool because you can use it so many different ways. It's kind of like a good hammer. You use the hammer, you can have pull nails out with it. You can bang this, bang that. It was intended for those usage, but it's effective. I think the second mortgage same way that even if you just got to originally pay off your current mortgage and over time, you know, the line goes up. Well, you discover one year in an out year that your portfolio is down. You can access that equity without more closing costs because you've already paid for the loan

5:23 Or you have a healthcare you can pull the money out temporarily while you figure out what you want to do so you don't have to commit yourself to that so okay so one of the best ways then I think is really just planning ahead and I think that means planning for the eventual problems that come with life and being prepared for them rather than just planning for one particular scenario is that is that

5:43 Make sense yeah it's you know because the thing I hear a lot is I don't need a reverse mortgage, right? It's like, well, you also didn't need to save for your retirement. You didn't need to get life insurance. You didn't, you know, there's all these things you don't necessarily need, but they're a good idea to have, right? And a good, like, it's a good idea to save for your own retirement. So, the easiest way I look at it is, you know, I get you don't need the reverse mortgage today. You own your home free and clear, but if you set up the reverse mortgage, you set up that line of credit and it's growing, to me, it's almost like an insurance policy, right? So, if things do go bad, you've got a backup here. And I and I just saw a survey that came out that people are more afraid of running out of money in retirement than they are of dying,

6:33 Right? So if that is the case, why wouldn't you set this up? It's a it's a backup source of funds. Should you run out of money, should things go wrong in that plan, you've got this backup source of funds, there's just no reason not to do it. And the thing I hear from people is like, well, what if I never use it?

6:56 Well, that's a win, right? That's a huge win. Okay. But the likelihood of you needing it for most people, if you have a portfolio of a million dollars or less, the likelihood of you needing this at some point in the future for health care costs, long-term care, etc. Is pretty high. So, you know, I've every plane I' ever been on, we had a life jacket underneath the seat.

7:22 And so far in my life, I've never needed it. Thank God, right? But because I haven't, I'm not going to tell the plane, "Oh, just don't bother packing one for me. I'm not going to need one." we there's proper precautions and I think that's just part of life and so the reverse mortgage kind of fits that you know I met you've been doing reverse mortgages for how long now?

7:42 Over a decade and you know I don't know you know I was a loan originator early in my career and later moved to real estate full-time when the market was going through changes but I did a couple reverses where I kind of called reverse mortgage 1.0 which was a whole different world. You know, you go to 80% loan to value, people found their mortgages upside down.

8:09 There were no restrictions on the money and so people were salespeople were unscrupulously taking the money and then buying high commission equities with it and turning the equities and the money would all disappear. And I call that one of the problems with the reverse mortgage kind of the stink of 1.0 and the seem like the reaction I get when I talk to and I'm a real estate broker. I don't do reverse mortgages. I work with originators. But what I always get is, oh, like you said, I don't need one. They don't need one or financial. Well, they don't need one. Well, they don't need a hammer either, but if you want to pull the nail out, you need to get the claw in the back of the hammer and pull it out.

8:49 And I and I think that there's this process that we really need to kind of undo the past and say there's a lot of protections in this product. This is a different product than the reverse mortgage that may be on the books. Maybe the customer took one out 20 years ago. They still have it, but it's a different product. The new ones are originating today than last one. So, talk a little bit about how you see the protections that are built into this product and how the protects customers who don't need one, but this could be a very valuable tool to give them some flexibility.

9:16 Yeah. So, there's a lot of protections in these things. One of the things is counseling, right? So you don't have the sales guy telling you all the stuff that's not true and then you get into it and they're like, "Wait, I didn't know this." So counseling is huge, right? And what I always tell clients, the purpose of the counseling is it's a neutral third party. They have no vested interest or whether you get a reverse mortgage or not. They're there to tell you the truth.

9:43 Generally, what I hear from my clients is, "Well, you know, counseling is stupid. I didn't hear anything you didn't tell me." And I'm like, "Well, it's not there for me, right? It's there for other originators that don't really know what they're talking about because they don't really do many reverse mortgage. That's one protection.

9:58 Well, hold on a second. Let's stop at that. There's a lot cuz I think sometimes you're in the business and you don't appreciate how important that is. So, what you're saying is the counseling is really important for people who don't work with professionals like you. Yeah.

10:12 May not be valuable for your customers, but maybe provides a backup or certification that the work has been done. That's a good thing, right? If your customers are bored,

10:23 They should be gratefully bored that you did a good job and appreciate who you are as a originator, right? Yes. Yeah. And the problem is, you know, as a as a real estate broker, it seems like a lot of reverse mortgages are done by a regular loan originator who rarely does one

10:46 Or by a call center that advertises heavily, and that's who customers are getting. They're not normally getting a Matt Allen. So, let's talk about let's stop right there for a second. Talk about the importance of the information you're giving. How do you get the chance or what's the process like where you're able to educate your customers so they can go into this confident and comfortable and or their professionals, their estate planning or attorney or accountant. What's the process by which you're going to help these people feel comfortable, confident that you're in charge of this or you're providing this tool and helping them through it. They're not going to get somebody who needs that kind of handholding,

11:23 Right? I think it's just for me it's doing a deep dive into what their financial situation is, right? What does your income look like? What are your assets? Do you have long-term care insurance? You what are the gaps in your retirement plan? Do you have longevity in your family or do you not? Do you want to leave as much to the kids as possible or you don't care? Right? So, there's a lot of questions that I go through to really figure out and understand where the client's coming from. But then, you know, plenty of time for them to ask questions. And I try not overwhelm people with, you know, how much I know because they don't really care. They just they want to know that I know that what I'm doing, but I don't want to just sit there and spend an hour just talking about reverse mortgages because I don't want to go out to the weeds with stuff and confuse people. Sometimes they do ask questions that are out in the weeds. And I'm like, look, you're gonna That question is a great question. We're going to go out in the weeds because this is a I'm going to give you a detailed answer, but it's almost irrelevant, but you ask, so you want to know, so I will I will educate them. I, you know, every one of my clients, I give them my book so that they can go through and read that and educate them themselves there.

12:43 I just try and give as much information as possible depending on what they're trying to do. We also will do forecasting. You know, what if you did continue to make payments or partial payments? What does that look like? Or what if you got the reverse mortgage and you know in 5 years you're going to need a new roof. It's going to cost 30 grand. In 5 years you take 30 grand out. What is the impact on that over time? Right? So really doing a deep dive to make sure that they are as educated as possible and feel comfortable making a decision whether that's to move forward or not. But that is my goal is to make sure that they are as educated as possible.

13:28 You know you start off with the education process and that you know we said may some people don't think they need it. I think what's probably more accurate because you take great pride in your knowledge is that and I think this is where as sales people we get off track. We think the customer when they ask question A only wants to know the answer to question A. In reality sometimes question A is an audition for a knowledge of the whole product.

13:54 And when we handle question A in a professional manner, not too much, not too little, just right. Yeah. We've shown them that a we know that and b we're available for other things as well. There's a saying who you are speaks so loudly I can hardly hear what you're saying

14:12 And I can just tone your enthusiasm to discuss this that a customer is going to realize that you're an expert in this area. They're probably going to ask you one or two questions and the rest they're just going to go I really want to know that much about it and I trust this guy. He seems to really know what he's talking about. And I think professionals as well get that sense. And so I think for all the originators listening to this, that's the goal that I have with this podcast is that we should be so well educated and so comfortable in explaining these things that customers understand the difference between an expert like Matt Allen and people who are just winging it. And if you know, we all have to make a living and we have to learn. We all we all did our first deal. But there's a difference between misleading a customer and telling the truth. And so I really appreciate Matt your approach and you talked about your book. We're get back to that in a second. Let's talk about your standing in the business. Are do you do just reverses? Do you do reverses and regular mortgages or forward mortgages we call the industry? And how long you've been doing reverse mortgages overall? You said 10 years. Is that a focus of yours or is that just something that you've done a couple along the way?

15:17 No, all I do is reverse. My, you know, it's interesting and I'm, you know, a pretty good producer for reverse. I'm all referral-based, right? And it's funny cuz you mentioned, you know, the loan officers that will do one and then they'll never do them again. And I actually have a loan a lot of loan officers that refer me their reverse mortgages for that exact reason, right? They it's like it's a fly in the ointment or you know a wrench in a welloiled machine because reverse are so different and it's hard to wrap your head around the reverse versus a forward and so

15:56 Yeah so for 10 years it's reverse is all I done I've done and interesting enough you know I prior to reverse I did regular mortgages I would say I was a average maybe even a below average loan officer cuz I did everything right. I couldn't focus on anything. I didn't know who my referral partners were. I didn't know where to market. I didn't know what differentiated me amongst the sea of loan officers. Right? So when I focused and just decided to do just reverse, it was a game changer for me in my business because I had clarity around everything like who my referral partners are, why they would refer me, what problems I solve for them and their clients. It just it just made everything significantly easier. And now I it's just it's so because this is all I've done for 10 years is it's so easy for me working with a client understanding what their issues are. It is just it's just significantly easier.

17:02 One of the challenges that originators have who are looking to get into reverse is you know wanting to tiptoe in. And I know the same with in real estate. I focus on probate real estate. I made the decision all my lead generation's in probate. There are certain types of other listings I'll do. I don't work with buyers because in probate you don't typically work with buyers. You work with the sellers in the estates. And people call me, you know, can I show them a property? I'm looking for like a $500, you know, warehouse in downtown LA. And I say to them, look, I appreciate the call, but frankly, I just don't know the product. I don't know the zoning. I don't know the issues. It's not that I couldn't learn it and be good five years from now, but you know, 5 years ago, I made decision to be an expert in this other thing. But that clarity you talk about, I think is so comforting that I know that I get business because of that clarity, because the value I create for customers. And so I think one of the things that you do is you must be very valuable to your referral partners. I would imagine an estate planner who wants to have help a customer unlock the value of their equity would see you as a great resource because rather than having to sell the stocks all the time and really focus on what the price is every quarter or every year or every month they pull money out, you become very valuable to them as a resource rather than just a guy who did a service for the for the same customer.

18:16 Yeah. Yeah. It's solving problems, right? And I'll give you a perfect example of like a financial planner and what is possible when you implement the reverse mortgage. So, I had a financial planner that referred me a client who was basically drawing way too heavily out of their portfolio just to make, you know, make their mortgage payment. And so she was going to run out of money in seven or eight year I se seven or eight years by getting the reverse mortgage and not having to make that payment anymore. It increased so she would run out of money and I think it was like 15 years 7 15 to 17 years. So we added 10 years of income to the client's portfolio. Right. And for the client, that's great because she's not going to run out of money. For the financial planner, that's great because that's more under more assets under management for a long period of time. So, it's kind of a win-win for everybody. And generally that's what I see with financial planners is the referrals from clients that are either, you know, going to run out of money sooner than later or I try and talk to them to not do this but that are have run out of money and now I'll refer you know, over the reverse mortgage guy. The reality is that the impact could have been much greater and the money could have lasted a lot longer and that retirement plan wouldn't have failed had we implemented the reverse mortgage early on into that plan.

19:53 Or the quality of life maybe they had to sell a house cuz they couldn't afford the payment. Meanwhile, like I live near my kids and grandkids, so it's a quality of life that extends my quality the quality of the living I have versus having to move to a retirement community to save money. It doesn't make much sense.

20:10 Yeah. You know, it's interesting because you're probate. So, one of I get a lot of phone calls from people that are running out of money to pay for care, right? And almost it's almost the same. It's almost always 90 days before they're going to run out of money. I get that phone call. The problem with that, and again, this is a problem of not planning for this, is that, okay, you're calling me 90 days before you're going to run out of money. Now, the question is the person or one of, you know, the spouses, do they have a cognitive issues? They have dementia, Alzheimer's. Now, do we have to get a guardianship or conservatorship set up? That's going to take several months. The court has to approve that. They have to approve the reverse mortgage. So that could you could run out of money before we can even apply for the reverse mortgage,

21:04 Right? A and then depending on the value of the home, how much money you're going to get and how long will that last? So a lot of times in those situations, I'm like, look, it's going to make more sense for you to sell that house and move them into memory care or assisted living or, you know, nursing care, whatever it is. It just it's going to make more sense financially to do that than it is to do the reverse mortgage.

21:30 It's too late. It's too late, right? So, that's again where this planning comes in. Let's say you're 62. You own your own free and clear. You got great income asset. I don't need a reverse mortgage. But if you set up that reverse mortgage, that line of credit growing right to where you know when you're in your late mid to late 80s and you start needing care, you've got this huge source of funds that are income tax-free to start paying for that care to keep you in your house to if family's taking care of you, maybe you pay them a salary, right, versus in home care provider. So you're not so you don't become a burden to your family. And families would say, "Oh, you never be a burden to me." But you are, right? Either financially they have to quit their job, they're not working as much, maybe they get fired because they're missing too much work. You they're out of pocket paying your bills, doing remot, why wouldn't you be prepared for that? You know, I don't have any scientific data to back it up, but my experience with customers, with family, is that running out of money is almost a cause of death. The stress of it, the negativity, the kind of sense of, you know, my financial life's coming to a close, therefore, you know, I am. And also having to sell the house for some people. Not to say that there are people who move and have great improvements in their life experience. But there are some people who are forced to sell. They don't want to. They didn't plan ahead.

23:01 Financially, they didn't plan ahead. It's a whole big mess at that stage. Like you say, memory care and getting to signing the papers, the whole thing is just a nightmare. But my sense of it almost contributes to death. I've seen that happen where they sold the house and bought some home hoping to get out of the memory care and they don't come out because in their mind, they're only doing this because their life's coming to an end. Their house is at an end. As opposed to, you might say, "Well, yeah, but you're moving this new adult center in Florida and they have golf and they have pools and stuff." But they don't see it that way and it's not how it goes. And that's where the reverse mortgage I think gives you the planning to make what happened happen rather than be kind of the result the an effect of something that's going on in your life.

23:42 Yeah. You know what's interesting about that too is you know you'll hear well if my wife or my husband you know was in that position I would take care of them. And that's generally what happens right but

23:54 Good luck. Yeah. Caregiving is hard. Emotionally, physically, it's hard. And so, really what's needed in that is respite, you know, care so that you can get a break, that you can, you know, take a couple days off and not have to worry about that, rejuvenate yourself. And again, having a reverse mortgage has gives you the ability to pay for caregiving. Right now, 24-hour inhome caregiving, $30,000 a month. Because you're talking about more than one person. You need two or three people to staff it if it's 24/7. My next door neighbor has that. They have three caregivers who trade places all day long.

24:34 Yeah, it's crazy. Memory care generally 10 to 14,000 a month. Assisted living depending how much care you need, but between $4 to $8,000 a month.

24:45 Long-term care is expensive. You have about a 50/50 shot of needing long-term care. So, you know, if you if you if you're a married couple, it's not really a question of if, it's a question of who.

24:57 Right. Right. And you've got to have a plan around that. Whether that's long-term care insurance, the reverse mortgage, planning with your estate planning attorney, your CPA, your financial planner, you have to have a plan around that or it's going to fall on the on the shoulders of your family and that can be really tough.

25:17 I had a taste of that. My wife was fighting cancer for two years and so she wasn't available. She was in a doctor's office or the hospital every day over a two-year period and so I had to drive her back and forth and then she was there and my wife had a dog all so now I'm the primary caregiver for the dog. And you know I'm a kind of a cat man. I also have to do laundry and cooking and shopping and I remember one day I was talking to a friend of mine and I was just saying man I'm just feeling so down. He said well I wonder why. I said, "I don't know, man. I'm working hard and this." He goes, "I wonder why you're feeling down. Why? Your wife's in the hospital. One, two, you're exhausted." God, I didn't want to think about it. It is exhausting. And that wasn't even her being in the house. And then physically, how you know, the few times I had to help her physically. But people do it every day. It's like a full-time job. It's just it is a full-time job. And either you're going to do it on top of your life or instead of so you're not making money or you're going to have to hire somebody. And there's no way around. I think those options.

26:16 Yep. Yeah. It's you got to be prepared for it. You just do it just makes everybody's life easier. It you know and if you look at it, you know, nobody says when I get to this point, I want to go into assisted living. Everybody wants to stay in their house. If you want to stay in your house, it's the most expensive option generally depending how much care you need. But why are you not prepared for this financially? You know, and I think, you know, here's the biggest issue. I think that most people I think statistically like 70% of people believe that Medicare pays for long-term care, and it doesn't.

26:55 Medicare pays for what it pays for, but it may not pay for what it pays for going forward, too. That's a whole another How long is Medicare going to be around even, right? Counting on that's a

27:04 That's iffy proposition, I think. Yeah. The only thing that Medicare will pay for is like a long-term care event is like basically going into like what like a rehab facility, right? You get discharged from the hospital cuz you don't really need hospital setting but you can't go home and I believe they pay up to 100 days.

27:23 Exactly. That you're out of pocket, right? I think it's lifetime as well. So if you go through several bouts, my wife again battled cancer and went through there once, but that comes off of her lifetime that she can go to. It's not it's not good care.

27:38 Now in LA, it's hard to find any place, let alone quality. You're lucky to find any bed at all. The work we had to go through to find any place that was close by was crazy. But

27:47 Even still, and the Medicare does pay for it for amount of time, but then you think, well, what if it's longer than that? I don't know what they do. They kick people out. I mean, I'm not even sure what happens, but it's not a pretty picture. So, we want to be there.

28:00 Medic Medicaid will kick in, right? If you spun down your assets and depending on your overall income, Medicaid will kick in, but you know, Medicaid only pays for I think 20 hours of care in home. They generally do not cover assisted living. And then your med memory care. So again, a lot of this falls onto family. You know, what's interesting is like and I didn't know this cuz I actually have a friend of mine that owns multiple assisted living and memory care facilities. Basically, from Sacramento up, med there's no Medicaid coverage for long-term care at all. State doesn't cover any of it.

28:44 Wow. Wow. So, it is 100% self-pay. Wow. Well, Okay. So, we and I appreciate your time. We go on for a long time. You're incredible resource, but I'm kind of at the end of our time. So, you mentioned in passing a book. Let's talk about that because I think the importance of it is number one, it shows customers, I think, that you have a depth of knowledge on this. Two, referral sources shows it kind of separates you from the average. And I think more importantly, it's a nice way to make the handoff. If you're an estate planning attorney or an accountant and has a customer that needs to explore the options, a book is a great resource for them to give out as well as a way to hand over to you. So, talk a little bit about the ultimate guide to reverse mortgages and 16 excellent reasons to get one.

29:28 Yeah. So, again, it's covering that particular book is covering the FHA HECM, home equity conversion mortgage, and it just the first half of the book is just covers all the basics. What do people really need to know and understand about the reverse mortgage? And then the other half of the book is, you know, why do people get the reverse mortgage? What I generally hear from my clients is like, this is great. This helped me understand it. What I don't want people doing is going on the internet, right? Because whatever they think that, you know, about reverse mortgages, the internet is going to provide confirmation bias, right? Reverse mortgages are bad. You're going to find all kinds of articles and opinions on why they're bad. Reverse mortgage is good. You're going to find all those opinions. It opinions don't matter. Facts matter, right? And this is basically just bringing that out like this is what the reverse mortgage is. This is how it works. This is why people get them. And what I have found is it's really helpful for a variety of reasons. One, the client reads it, then they give it to maybe their heirs or, you know, other family members to read so that everybody's on the same page when it comes to making a decision of whether or not we're going to get a reverse mortgage. I just found that it's just significantly help. It's a major benefit to them moving forward in the process because they have the information to make the decision. You know, I find of course I do podcasts, which is information, and we're an age now where there's more information created every minute than anybody could consume. And so, more than ever now, it gets down to who's curating the information in a way that's useful and valuable for their audience.

31:17 And that's why I do the podcast because I have customers and I have referral sources that want to know how I can help them. And the same with your book, I think you are able to both yes, people go on the internet, get a lot of information. A lot is wrong. A lot of it nowadays is just autogenerated by some robot. But what's the truth? And the truth is you work in this industry and have for at least 18 probably 20 years overall and 10 years or so focused on reverse mortgages. And so this is information from somebody who's in the trenches doing this day in day out reputation based on based business on. So not only is a book available on Amazon which means it's legitimate. Yours is on Amazon, but for listeners of the podcast, I understand you have a special offer. So let's go ahead and share that.

32:05 Yeah. So if you I mean obviously you can go buy it on Amazon. I don't I have it priced so that I don't make any money on it. But I am happy to mail you a copy for free. It is a physical book so it's not an ebook. So just give me a call or shoot me an email with your mailing address and I will mail out the book to you. It's pretty that simple.

32:28 We have your contact information on the screen down below if you want a free copy of the book mailed to you. The actual imagine an actual book and I love books. I'm a reader and I love paper books. I've tried Kindle. I just because I'm on the screen all day long. I just don't like that and associate that with work rather than pleasure. So, a real book, but more importantly, a chance to learn more. Matt, I really appreciate your time today. Appreciate what you're doing for the industry. Thank you for offering the book free to all our listeners again today. Reach out to Matt to get your free copy or reach out to me and I'll forward you information. But, Matt, thank you for your time today. I really appreciate you.

33:04 Yeah. Thank Thanks, Bill. I so glad I got to come on and do a podcast with you. Thanks. And for the rest of you, this is the Reverse Mortgage Podcast. We get together every week and interview top producers in the industry, vendors, management. In this case, we had a great producer as well as the author of a book that can help you learn more information and how to do your job better if you're a professional or a consumer, how to how to learn more to use this tool to improve your finances. If I can help, please reach out at Bill Gross Probate on social media. Love to get your feedback on this, questions, comments, put it in the chat or description down below. If you want to be interviewed on this, please reach out to me. Or if you know somebody who should be, love to talk to them as well. As always, make today your best day ever. Thanks so much.