Reverse Mortgages from a Financial Professional's Perspective, with Mark Klein of Citywide Home Mortgage

0:01 Welcome. Welcome to the Reverse Mortgage Podcast. I'm your host, Bill Gross. We do this every week with top producers in the business, managers, vendors, and helping to be more effective at serving our customers. Really excited to have today a when I say a longtime friend, at least 30 years, 29 years minimum. I've known this guy, not just known him, known him as a top producer, one of the real thinkers in this industry, one of the people who really knows what we're doing and is committed to su success for himself and his team, Mark Klein, with Citywide Mortgage. Mark, it's great to catch up with you again.

0:31 Bill, it's great to catch up with you. And again, I keep going back to our days at, you know, the Todd Duncan Masters events from so many years ago. And those were those are just the best days. I miss

0:42 We've been together so long that the guy that was the new mortgage kind of consultant coach guy back when we met is now like almost I is he still around? I mean I see him from time to time, but new people don't know who he is because he was around so long. It was like new guys have replaced them I guess for the newer people. Huh.

1:00 Yeah. He is still around I think but I definitely think he's slowed down and you know the mortgage industry as you know has taken a you know has really taken some wicked turns for the better and for the worse and he continues to do that. So

1:15 Well for my money and you know we reacquainted recently at a convention but you and I been in touch from time to time over the years. One of the things about you that I've always appreciated that I appreciated with Todd when we started this and maybe why his, you know, he would have a tough time appealing to the newer generation is it seems to me that the newer generation doesn't want to do doesn't want to work hard. And I think you and I should be out of the business. There should be some young whippers snappers kicking our butt every day on pure energy and drive. The problem is they don't put the work in to really learn the product and develop the relationships. And as a result, Todd's still doing coaching. You're still doing loans. I'm still selling real estate. And these young guys, I think unless they take a shortcut, that doesn't exist, they're not going to catch up until we decide to back off the throttle a little bit. So, let's talk about that. You've, as long as I've known you've always been working hard to prove your game, your market, your edge. You've always looking for that. Tell me about that in the mortgage industry and reverse mortgages specifically today. So you're right, Bill, and I agree with you 100% that today's younger generation, most of them, not all, I mean, there's some really hardworking, you know, millennials out there or whatever you want to call them today that are doing a not gang up job. And by the way, I think if you work hard and you know, and the old rules still apply, how much, you know, how much are you going to be out there producing and how much are you out there being proactive, you know, activities? I think all that still applies and I think there's lots of business to get. But most, and I'll say most, but I don't know how different that was from our generation. They don't want to put the hard work in and they don't want the rejection that you get and they don't, you know, all that stuff. But it's opportunity out there. But that being said, where my career changed and it's still there. I'm still doing forward mortgages and all and I work I've always worked with CPAs, financial planners, right,

3:04 Professionals, some Realtors®, and then I manage my database. That's always been my model. I've always had those pillars and it continues to be the pillars. But it's interesting. Today I probably spend 80% or more of my time educating financial professionals on reverse mortgages. Even though that's only maybe 10% of my business and it's kind of a passion of mine.

3:25 Well, I remember again we known each other for 30 years or so. That was your unique niche back then working with CPAs and financial planners. That was not common and working with professionals. I think today, you know, flash fast forward 30 years

3:40 That, you know, you can't compete with Google and Facebook ads for the general population, but expertise and deep relationships are something that you've accumulated and have leveraged and continue to leverage in your business. And I think that's what financial professionals do and should appreciate is that expertise. So, let's talk a bit what I mean, it's one thing to say you target them and you've been working in that field for a while. What value do you create or what's the target you're trying to create for the financial professionals that you do work with? You said education. Is it primarily education and how they can use your service?

4:13 Yeah. Well, whenever you deal with a trusted advisor, you've got to build trust and they got to have trust in you because remember they're referring their clients to you,

4:21 Right? And if you if you screw up, they screw up, right? So, it's pretty simple. So, I want to give them a safe place to go from word services. That's always been my kind of my motto. That's worked. But again, I made a switch in the past few years. Well, I've been involved with doing looking at reverse mortgages since 2005. I started and I got more involved as the years went on. And today, I'm highly focused on that. And I'm just trying to give these financial advisors and professionals information and alternatives to help their clients and give them tools. They don't, and it's amazing. And I spoke to the other day the some a life insurance guy a very high level life insurance person disability life insurance person and we're looking at you know he's looking at it he goes well how can reverse mortgages help me I heard they're horrible right and you know and I explained to him well that was maybe 30 years ago there were some issues with pricing and some deception and some other things but that's not the case today reverse order problems and I go into it I have a whole I wrote a book I have a presentation we do all that and I and I go into scenarios with them. I'm like, "Okay, well, tell me, you know, what are you going to do?" And I can rattle off some scenarios and I'll say, "Here's your options, right?" And they go, they didn't even thought of this,

5:35 Right? I sat down with a this financial advisor, professional, and I gave them god five illustrations. I gave him a I gave him a HECM first. We used a scenario one clients. I gave him a proprietary product. I gave a second. I gave him a line of credit, just a basic line of credit for his client to help with their cash flow issues and all the issues with it. And I gave him a bunch of illustrations and amortization schedules and I educated him on it. And his I get to see I saw him, we're on a Zoom and I'm sharing all this stuff. And you just see his mind just going all over the place saying, "Oh my gosh, I had no idea these tools are available." And for those loan amounts that lines of credit, all those things, it's pretty amazing. So for you to get permission even to talk to them in my experience, you have to overcome two challenges. One is, and you've been around like me for a while, kind of the stink of the original reverse mortgage program, right? Like that has it's one of those things where attorneys, financial planners may know nothing about it other than 30 years ago, somebody got ripped off by reverse mortgage. It has nothing to do with today's product, but that sting and that stink still exists today on the product. True or false?

6:45 True. And one of the things I do and I've been in rooms with webinars or work I'm doing with a live one in particular, but I'll do with a webinar too. I'll sit here in the conference room and I'll first thing I ask them is goes, "How many of you thought have heard about reverse mortgages?" You know, raise their hand. How many thought they're they were they're not they're evil or not done right or then a certain amount raises their hands and then I'll say, you know, and I'll walk around the room and I'll say, "Okay, why?"

7:11 Nobody knows. They can never answer it. I heard her back. I heard her back. Exactly. Exactly. So I think that and when I launched this podcast and you and I spoke about this, but for those watching, I had two thesis. One is just as a financial professional, as a real estate broker in the industry, we should be doing 10 times the reverse mortgages we are. Meaning, we have 10 times of customers that should have the product that don't for various reasons. Either get a line of credit they shouldn't get or they're suffering with debt they shouldn't have or they don't have access to the equity in the way that they should 10 times number one. Number two that the problem is the lack of education and I really believe that those of you I guess us I'm not an originator but those of us that educate the public about this and reach a large number are going to you know benefit by changing that number. So, let's talk a bit about how do you get people even be open to talking about like you asked the question if you're you know and you said the financial said it was negative but some of them just going to throw you out of the room if they hear you do reverse mortgages right they're going to assume you're ripoff ours so how do you get through that to get the opportunity to go deeper with it

8:18 Well Bill that's a great question and I'm still working on it you know so you know I do know monthly webinars where I invite people and I try to get it and really what it is it's I'm an oldfashioned guy. I do one at a time stuff, right? So like all like for example, I know a financial planner, right? And I just hooked up with him and right after I hooked up with them, we talked about it and I educated him. I go, "Hey, is it possible I can do a you know, a webinar for your office? Is there other people that can, you know, benefit from that?" So it's always the same thing. Who do you know? And you have to ask for the business. It's no different. And by the way, for those that work with real estate offices, and I personally don't work with a lot of them, but here's my tip of the day for you. Walk in, go out there, talk to somebody in an office that you know, and say, "Can I talk to your manager?" So, I'd like to do a reverse for purchase, you know, comp, you know, group meeting, man, you know, office meeting and show people how they can get not only one transaction, but two transactions out. And not many people are doing that. And you can get in front of and by the way it's really funny every time I do one of these workshops it's always they always have somebody personal they know that I can help every time I

9:34 Agree you know not only clients but oh yeah my mom my this my it's always that right so you use that as your reason to get in there and you focus on reverse purchase but then you talk about other purposes of reverse mortgages and you just go deep into that you get names and numbers and you just one at a time who do you Who do you know? Remember I Who was that? Was that Greg Frost like your friend of yours? Didn't he say who do you know? Was it Jim McMahon? But they said, "Hey, who do you know?" Right? Who do you know? People want to help you.

10:04 So, one of the things that really pushed me to be passionate about this product was I had a client who their mother owned a house in the Palisades and it was an older house. Classic case of a old house would be a tear down worth $2 million then

10:21 And she needed to go into a you know adult facility you know she was widowed and they were going to move her to their house in Vegas temporarily to transition her into and then they were going to sell the house and take the money and pay for the and while they did that and I talked to them in like November and said look these Realtors® talking about staging all this it's nonsense sell the house put the money in the bank they didn't do that. House burns down and like many houses there's not much insurance value because the house wasn't worth anything. The lot was worth $2 million. It would have been scraped to be rebuilt. Had they had a reverse mortgage for half a million dollars or a million dollars, if they had they had a line of credit, a HECM, they'd write a check and be able to pull that money out. Had they had a mortgage over the years and paid it down, they could write a check and pull that money out regardless of the status of the house. But it really got me thinking, this is a product that has so many different uses. It's like a toolbox. It's not one tool. It's a toolbox of ways you can use this. And yet you need somebody who's an expert to look at your individual situation and tell you how this toolbox can be used or if it can be used. If not this, there's other tools as well. So I think part of it is it requires really a deeper understanding and that's where I think you who works with financial planners fits in. So do you end up does a financial planner kind of pitch the solution to the customer? Does a financial planner turn over the customer to you and you do a deeper dive and then come back with the solutions and you work either or it depends on the relationship the financial planner or the CPA has with the client. A lot of times they say Mark just take care of it and I do it. Sometimes they want to be involved. I had a situation the other day. Somebody came they're running out of money. They need money. And what makes by the way we have traditional loan officers on the call here that want to get in reverse. One reason you probably want to do that is because they came to me and say, "Okay, they have trouble qualifying. There's income issues always time when you're dealing with seniors in many cases.

12:17 They're running out of money. Their credit could be an issue. There's a million issues that because of my background and what we do is I'm able to present all kinds of options to them. Reverse mortgage, reverse mortgage second, a line of credit, reverse mortgage. Then I also present forward mortgages too, conventional mortgages. They'll say, "Okay, but if you don't want to do that, we can do it here a cash out loan or a line of credit or a second." So I believe in giving people options. I don't believe in selling. I never have. So, I'll consult with the financial advisor saying, "Here's all your options." And then it's usually I'll just kind of indicate this is what I believe, but it's really their choice, right? And I educate the educator. That's kind of what I've always done. And

12:57 Nice. Nice. And so one of the people that need to be educated are our colleagues, competitors, is the industry in general. I saw you at I think one of the great resources and this really unusual. You know, I'm a real estate agent. We have 10 million designations that aren't worth anything for the most part. You know, a designation as a Realtor® means you took a class four years ago, but you have no idea what you're talking about. But I saw you at the National Reverse Mortgage Lenders Association regional meeting and you know I thought before I went there because I started interviewing people from that list almost exclusively they were all top-notch professional committed serious and going that to that event that you and I were at we acquainted I was really impressed with the quality of the material and the quality of the participation. Everybody was there was participating and so talk a little bit about your association with NRMLA and how that helps you I think as originator as you know continue to grow in this product and as this product continues to change. Yeah, you know it first of all the product as you said Bill changes the thing changes and frankly I'm amazed at the limited participation we have I think the participation that's there is great and the people like you said are ultimately professional and they care about

14:16 And I think most of them have the right mindset and purpose in mind like I do people on doing that. Yes. But it's interesting just like well let's talk about the industry for a minute just about just like it's hard for us to get how do I say this volume or just penetration into the market on people understanding the product. It's hard to get loan officers to understand it as well and they don't want to put the time in. But maybe that goes back to your first comment earlier thing was saying nobody wants to put the time in and it is a different product for sure. I mean, you gota you have to understand, you know, the pros and cons and why somebody should be in it. And you know, if somebody thinks they're a reverse mortgage is the perfect solution for everything, they're absolutely wrong, right?

15:02 But if somebody thinks a reverse mortgage or one type of the product could be helped, absolutely it can at times. So it's a challenge. It's a ch how do you scale this up? How do you how do we get more penetration? How do you get people more acceptable of the products? And how do you get people not the other thing is you gota remember a lot of people you did it for the wrong reasons too right they'd say oh you know my you know the first reason number one reason you should not do a reverse mortgage you know what that is

15:29 That you need it no because see is you shouldn't be playing the arbitrage of the interest rates you shouldn't be you shouldn't be getting somebody says oh I can get you know like take 300 grand out and I can make you 10% or 12% or using it for an investment absolutely that's Actually, I think that's against a lot of guidelines against a lot of laws and but that's number one. You shouldn't do this, right?

15:53 So right away people say, well, you know, if I can't do that, maybe I should I shouldn't do a reverse, right? But there's so many reasons to do reverse. It's really help people retire comfortably. It's help people live, help people to use their equities, help people to do their retirement, and our job is to educate people on that kind of stuff. So to the originators who might be watching this who do a couple deals are struggling a little bit and are considering doing reverse mortgages, I tell them the first thing they should do is take every customer they've ever done a loan for.

16:22 Check public records and see because you can go online. I tell company give you the app. If you don't have one, call me. I'll put you together title rep. Pull up the property and see do they do they have the property in a trust or not? And if not, call those that don't and say,"Are you aware of the opportunity of estate planning and how it can protect your equity, limit taxes, help you in secession?" And just ask the question, "Are you aware of it?" And someone will say, "Yeah, but I don't really know anybody." Find somebody to refer them to. Those that have one, say, "Hey, I know you have one. Are you happy with who did it for you?" And they're going to say, "No, he died, retired, she's quit, she's gone,

16:58 Or we don't like him." Or, "Yeah, we think he's the greatest." And if they're great, now you have somebody you can refer to, has to be introduced to them. Every originator who's ever done a loan in the last 5 years, 10 years, would have permission to do this public record information. You're calling your own customer. And I and I feel like that's how you beat Facebook and Google ads is by leveraging your relationships. I know in your business when I'm talking to you, Mark, you have financial planners. Some of your business, not all of it, are people you've worked with 5 years, 10 years, 20 years. Nobody's going to get a Google ad and pry that person off of you because they know you and trust you and like you. And it just seems to me that the originators who are struggling just overlook really what's right in front of I know you coach agents. You're a branch manager as well as a producer yourself. Am I missing something here? Why do originators not and I know I'm a real estate agent. Why not call your real if you're if you're a purchase real estate originator, why would you call the Realtor® you did a deal with? Even the listing agents just call and say, "Can I help you with anything?" I get zero phone calls. I've closed a couple hundred transactions in the last five years. Zero from originators.

18:01 Well, what happened? You know, it's the old saying, you know, if you if you if you don't go or do it, you know what's going to happen. You stay at home all day, you know what's going to happen. If you go out somewhere and do something, you don't know what's going to happen. And I don't think people don't want to do it. You know, can you imagine if you spent two hours a day using your strategy you just presented to them or just touch base strategy or loan anniversary strategy or any just to talk to talk to two hours worth of clients or referral partners? Do you think your phone would be lit up with things to do

18:34 Just ones that you like? You have to call them the ones you don't like to take from your list. Just the half that maybe you like. Why would you not call people you like already?

18:42 You know, and you could I love with the strategy you just put out there, Bill. I think that's a phenomenally good strategy and I think that should be used or it could be I have a new product or I just want to touch base or are you guys downsizing or it's there's so many reasons to touch base with people but let's start with option one touch base

18:59 Well in reverse mortgages you have this requirement once a year on the FHA ones I think to certify annually

19:08 I'll reverse do that you have they will check if you don't respond matter of fact we had a client that was getting foreclosed on and because she thought all junk. She's out of room with junk mail.

19:19 Of course. Sure. Of course she does. So why would you not call her on 11 month? Hey, by the way, you're going to get your annual thing. Be look out for it. It's not junk. And you know, and just until they tell you they got it. Call them all. You know, there are people who want who you will tell me it's too much work. I said, "Well, how many reverse mortgages have you done your entire career? 10, 50? 50 would not even be one a week. How much work is it?" Hey, Bill. You know what's more amazing to me than anything else? Because look, I'm inherently like, I'm gonna try to do the best I can for a time I have, right? That's just who I am. So, explain this to me. You're a loan officer. You have a couple hundred good clients, right? That are, you know, your clients, you've done loans for them in the past and they're that their age is growing. They have parents, they have grandparents, whatever the case is, right? How in the heck are every loan offer author not marketing a reverse mortgage product? Even if they don't want to do it themselves, most companies

20:14 Right inside experts that do this kind of stuff. Yeah. That is to me the most easiest you know lowest fruit you can grab. I mean it's just like hey let's mark we do these. Do you know anything about them? There's lots of lots of material out there. I've never understood why people won't take time to just say, "Hey, yeah, we do these things." And even if you don't want to do them yourself, that's fine. But you have you should have resources that do them for you.

20:41 Well, I would say we do them. I don't personally even do any originations. I would have somebody call you if they're appropriate to meet with you and talk to about why would I not want that? And by the way, some are going to call you and you're going to help them understand that it's the best opportunity for them really is not a mortgage, but to sell the house. Fine. That works for me, too. I'm glad to sell out. It's just, you know, if you're not in conversation with people, you just don't get those chances. And what else do you people ask me, how do I find time to do these podcasts? I'm talking to Mark Klein. Why, how could I not afford to talk to you? What am I doing that's so important that I'm not talking to you? Right. And same with our clients.

21:16 Yeah, it's definitely a challenge, it goes back to just are they are people willing to put the time in? Are they willing to be proactive? Are they willing to do those things? And that's really what it comes down to. I mean, look, if everyone wants to sit in sit in their basement or sit in their house and just hope for the phone to ring, you know, it's not a very good strategy.

21:36 You know, when you and I met one of our friends, mentors who's passed on is Greg Frost. And the thing about Greg was the marketing he did, none of it was really rocket science. It all was a little corny because that's kind of his style and his flavor. It was a little, you know, he grew up in Sanger Valley where I used to live and he lived in New Mexico. But it was all systematized, right? And I think as originator, if you called everybody you ever did a deal for the rest of your career, I promise you'll have nothing else to do the rest of your life but call people you like to talk to and then they'll have a problem and you solve it and you get paid. And that's really, you know, what the goal is for all of us. I think that the best originators I know to this day still are on the phone. They just call their past clients because yeah, they maybe do some advertising to get some new leads coming in, but usually those go to the newer guys, not to the to the person running the business. The guy with the business is working with referral sources and with their past clients primarily.

22:30 Yeah. No, it's true. You remember Greg Frost's famous saying, right? When he used to sell a sell his like system at the end of a virt work workshop, he goes, "You know why I sell it for $20?" Right?

22:42 I answered that question from the first time you asked me that question. And I said, "Because they'll make a $30 bill." I thought that was it. I'll always remember that. Love Greg. Missing the missing.

22:52 He was the greatest. You know, I do miss him so much. But really, you look back now. So, let's take that for a second. You and I went to some exotic locations with Todd Duncan. We went to, I think, Hawaii together. Maybe went to Nevis, I think.

23:05 Were you NEA? Nevis in the West Indies. And maybe we also went to Hawaii, I think. And not what was the name of the Lai where these exact locations but at the end of the day all of the processes then are no different than today for the most part right keeping contact with people having systems and procedures and processes

23:26 Yeah it is and the people that know how to use you know the great database systems today they can even get a leg up and double down on that stuff but it still doesn't make up for calling people talking to people and I think the other part is that was true then that is harder to come by now but still very important is the power of camaraderie. I think that the fact that you and I were going to meet once a year kind of drove us to want to be successful so that other people would say hey Mark what are you doing? You know I saw you last year as an average guy. Now you're doing better than average. Tell me about what you're working on. And I think we all kind of need that competitive pressure to push ourselves or pick us up when we're down. And you know with COVID that changed with all the automation to some degree that's changed. But I do think that's the solution long run is that camaraderie and working with a with a company or team.

24:14 Yeah. No, I've always attributed my success to having these mortgage mastermind groups I met in these seminar. I mean and most of the people were top producers or better producers than I was. And I we'd go to each other's offices. We'd see you know I we'd go to their houses. We'd spend time with them and we used to share everything and that actually shaped my career more than anything else I could think of. And I remember I didn't believe back then you can do so many transactions one person by themselves right

24:45 And sure you can't but you can sure do it with a team and systems but that was exposed to me and once I got that exposed I remember I went from doing you know four or five transactions a month that was taking me 14 hour days

24:57 To you know doing 20 25 transactions a month and you know coaching my kids baseball and you know on baseball and soccer teams. It was awesome.

25:06 Nice. Nice. One of the things I saw the other day was Housing Wire has a podcast and they're interviewing the leadership of u Mr. Cooper and they bought Red Fin, but it's owned by Rocket Companies. I don't care for that model, which leans on marketing rather than relationships. Yet, what are they touting? They're buying the servicing to put the information of the real estate of the mortgage broker on the statement to help enhance the relationship between the broker and that customer. Recognition that for all the Facebook ads, Google ads and marketing dollars behind them. That bond we have with customers is the real value. And you've been in this business a long time leveraging on that and I have in my business as well. And I think for all the retailers out there, that's the key to keep focused on. So, give me one tip. You know, I gave you kind of one that I see as an outsider. I'm not in the mortgage industry every day. I'm on the on the periphery. Give me one tip that you would say to a mortgage originator who's struggling a bit or financial me even better a financial professional who's trying to build his business as well. What's one thing they should do to deepen the relationship with their customers to keep that relationship so the customer calls them with problems, not somebody else?

26:30 Well, I get I think it depends on what business you're in, right? If you're a financial planner, they should be calling their clients quarterly for sure. I mean, you know, going with the market issues or when there's a big dip or craziness in the market like we had a little while ago. That's a great time to call your clients, calm them down and just have discussions with them. If you're a mortgage originator, you just got to, again, I think you hit it on the head. Just you just need to come up with any reason. It doesn't matter just to call your clients and touch base and just show you care. I mean, you know, it's I don't think it's I don't think there are any secret sauce. I don't I think it's just you know showing your care having staying in contact with them whe and also well the other secret sauces I've seen and I'll be some people are afraid to tell people what they do they'll call talk about kids talk about everything else and all right thanks right as opposed to saying hey you know what just said you know if you are going to move or you do need some cash flow or you or if you know of anybody that needs a whatever it is let people know that you're there that you're there to And I'll use my old, you know, I've been a member of country club for god since 1997. I remember I first I came from very humble beginnings. I remember I started doing really well right when I started seeing you and joined the country club. And I remember when I first joined I go I'm going to make it a business club. Meaning I went out once a week with clients regardless.

27:51 I'd always make my calls. I'd always take, you know, two to three clients out every time with me, whether financial planner, client, Realtor®, whatever. Didn't matter. And then I'd also go once a week and play at the club and meet new members and just and I'd always let people know what I did. I didn't force my self on didn't force myself on them, but hey, yeah, I'm a mortgage banker. If you ever want me to review anything for you, see anything for you, I'm here to help.

28:14 And that's always been my strategy from give out good information, be a giver and good things usually happen. Well, I think if I could kind of rephrase a little bit of what you're saying, which is market in a way that you enjoy doing those activities, right? If you enjoy cold calling, nothing wrong with it. If you enjoy calling people, you know, call people you know. If you enjoy going to a country club or playing golf or tennis club, take them, go play tennis, go play whatever it is that you enjoy doing. And that's the way to generate the business. I know for me, when I moved into probate real estate, I used to go to court every day. I loved it. Now, most people think gh going to court, putting on a suit and tie. I wouldn't have done my whole life, but for the, you know, three or four years that I was doing it, I loved it. It was a lot of fun for a

28:56 What was the number one thing you did, Bill, to grow your practice, you know, way back when I going to court? You know, when I when I relaunched in sales out of out of management and I knew to focus on probate and I took a class on it and I and the teacher challenged us to go to court once to check it out and I went there once. I was just blown away by what I saw. Didn't understand it all and went back the next day and the next day. I said, I'm going to go for the rest of the week and then the rest of the month and I said, you know, I really enjoyed this. You know, it's in Los Angeles, you know, there's a lot of unsafe places, but the court has armed, you know, sheriffs and metal detectors and it was air conditioned. They had good Wi-Fi. There's a Starbucks there. But more importantly, there are people there in the room looking for business and looking for help and it was intellectually stimulating and I enjoyed it. Start I started going every day to meet people, meeting attorneys, meeting investors, meeting families that needed to sell houses. And it was just a gas. I loved it. And I do think that, you know, if you enjoy doing something, it wasn't always fun. You know, going to work in the morning, going to the court, driving there in LA traffic at times was, you know, difficult some days, you know, rain some days is frustrating. But I would just say that, you know, I loved being there. I loved the engagement part of the process. And so for me, after, you know, going there for a year, I was an expert in what I was doing. And all of a sudden people saw me differently. So that was the main thing I did.

30:15 Did and when you went there a lot. So I'm assuming you met a lot of probate attorneys and estate planning attorneys and this I'm guessing some clients. I don't know. Again, I've never been to probate that question.

30:28 All of that. I think you know my goal I would dress like an attorney, wear a dark suit, white shirt, Brooks Brothers silk tie. I carried a briefcase, a roller like the attorneys did. I really wanted to look like an attorney. I'm older. And so, you know, gray hair, kind of look like the average kind of attorney. Or at least I should say it played to my advantage. You know, an attorney who looks older looks wiser. A younger person has that challenge, but I didn't. So for me, I played that strength. I had business cards made that look like attorney's business cards separate from my Realtor® cards. And I just went there and watched and learned and met by, you know, waiting outside. Hey, what are you here for? And introduce myself. And also being quite I'd learned so much that when people had problems, I could solve the problem. And I think that's the key thing for me was that, you know, if somebody's going to learn reverse mortgages, you don't need to know it right away. Like you said, you can call your customers, find somebody who has questions, and refer somebody like you who's an expert in that field. But if you're going to do them, you better read the guidelines and really know it and read the documents your customers are going to sign and know what it says. So that when somebody asks me a question like on a probate today, I always laugh because it's on the form. When you write an offer as a Realtor®, there's a separate form, the addendum for the offer and there's a separate addendum for the listing. And it's obvious to me that 99% of the Realtors® never read the form because almost every question I ever get asked is on the form itself.

31:50 It's not complicated. It's all written out. So I would just say that, you know, if you really want to learn something, learn the guidelines. I remember when you I don't know if you were there then. Todd had a Todd Duncan had a top producers event in San Diego. It's his first one. And I was on the panel and he said, "Give everybody in the audience an idea that doesn't cost money they can use to improve their business." And I thought about I know the perfect one. In those days, it was get the 4155, which is the F FHA guide book. In those days, you had to go to like Kinko's to make a copy of it. Make your own copy of the book and read it. Like this is what you're selling your customers. Read the lending guidelines. And that way when the customer has a question like about their paycheck or their bank statement, you know the answer and that would create a distinction between you and the other originators. I would say the same thing if I was a reverse originator wanted to do that business. The first thing I do is get the company guidelines. I would get the company documents. I'd read through it and know and have resources like somebody like you to call or maybe a underwriter or a manager who I could call on and know those answers. But I'd want to learn the material so I could be of value. You know, Bill, back to, you know, what I learned from my Greg Frost. Remember what his job title was? Remember what he tell you what his job title was?

33:05 I don't. What's the job? He goes, "I'm a I'm a leader. I'm a I'm a lead generator. That is my job." Yeah. That's what he always thought his job was is generating leads and opportunities. And is I don't know if it's that much different today. You know, you got to have leads and opportunities, right? So the question you're going to say is okay, you know, I so it's interesting that you mentioned that. I think that there's a million ways to show you're professional and get leads, right?

33:33 And maybe you might want to be the biggest expert in it, but I know people that are total experts in loans and can do loans in the back of their head. It doesn't matter reverse, forward, conventional, but they can't get the phone right

33:46 Something. Exact opposite. I a couple people come to mind. I'm not going to mention their names, but that are the most social, gifted, nice people in the world, but you know, you know, they can screw up a glass of water. They have no idea how to get a loan done.

34:01 Right. Well, I was in Greg's office to use as an example. He knew how to underwrite how to pre-qualify a buyer. He knew it all.

34:09 He knew everything about guidelines on pre-qualifying now. And he had a system and he wrote notes and he hand it off to somebody else and he wouldn't have to touch it again. But he knew it. He knew it cold. He also was focused every day on getting the phone to ring and there's a million different things he had going on to get people to walk in his office in his case. And you're right and I think you know it's interesting because when I deal my number one referral source are attorneys and fiduciaries who are often attorneys or CPAs and you know people are scared to call them because they're so busy. But one thing I know is those top people in those business like the top probate attorney in LA, the top trust attorney in LA, the top fiduciary, they spend a big part of their day on business generation. Like they're the rain maker

34:51 Right now. Now they do have to do legal stuff and they have documents and signing and reading and all that. They go to court, but nobody produces business better than them. That's they're the Greg Frost of their of their firm. And so if you can help them generate business, they're going to do whatever you can. That's why I do the podcast because I have attorneys who wouldn't give me the time a day, but if I can get them in front of, you know, a thousand views on YouTube, they're like, "Yeah, Bill, come on your podcast. I'll come every week if you're happy every week." And so, I think

35:19 In addition, I'm assuming they'll take your podcast and market to their people as well. I hope. Yeah. I make it I make it easy for them to do that, but I think that you have to do it in a way that promotes them like with your business. I hope today we're giving good information to help, you know, financial professionals that you work with to refer business to you. I think also, you know, other originators that work with you know, or should be working with you, or consumers. But I think the key is as long as you're educating people and you're respecting them and coming from a place of giving and service, it all works together. It all works out the end. I think

35:52 I would agree. Well, look, we got a little longer than I planned on, but I've known you for a long time. It was fun to catch up with you in Irvine last month, this month, a couple weeks ago, and it's always a pleasure. I'm sure we'll talk again going forward. Now Mark, I know that your website citywide home mortgage we have your phone number and as well we have a banner down below with your phone number and your email. Best way to get a hold of you that way?

36:24 Yeah, you know, email is usually great. You know, you always call me and leave a message to my website's probably not where it is. I just moved. I just changed my back offices probably about you know two months ago. So I'm still working on that. But clearly I'm always here to help. I've always been a giver and that's kind of where I'm at and you know

36:44 I'm always an open book and Bill I really appreciate reconnecting with you. It's funny when I saw Bill Gross as a speaker. I go I wonder if that's the Bill I haven't seen in a long time and I was so happy. Awesome. And you did such a good job. So

36:57 That was a lot of fun. It was it was a challenging experience. You know, I don't know if you noticed, but the guy before me was like 11 minutes long and I'm thinking, well, do I go long? And so, but it was a lot of fun and I enjoy and I always enjoy working with different professionals because I think when you cross-pollinate, you see how they do business and you learn ideas on how to help you with your business. At the end of the day, I'm a business and I'm not a salesperson. I'm a business person. I'm the salesperson of my business, but I think you get to focus on the business part of it and that was a great experience. So, again, Mark, always a pleasure to chat with you. I'm sure we'll get a chance to chat again soon. And thank you again. Appreciate your time.

37:31 Bill, appreciate you. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much. Great connection. And everybody today, this was the Reverse Mortgage Podcast. We get together every week with top producers, management, vendors in the business of reverse mortgage on how to work more effectively in supporting our customers as well as how to be more effective in our business. If I can help, I'm at Bill Gross Probate on social media. Call, text, or email. And then if you have suggestions or comments, please put it below. As well as if you have somebody who you think I should interview or you'd like to be interviewed, please let me know. I'm always looking for more guests. As always, make today your best day ever. Thanks so much.