How to Be HECM Proud, with Tom Evans of Fairway Independent

0:00 Great. Hey, welcome to the Verse Mortgage podcast. I'm Bill Gross, your host at Bill Gross Probate on social media. And while oftentimes we interview individual originators and or vendors that support those originators, really excited today to have one of the executives of one of the largest lending companies in the country to kind of give us maybe more of a 10,000 or 20,000 foot view of the industry and kind of trends and where they're going with it. Tom Evans is the EVP of reverse mar reverse marketing and tech for Fairway Independent. Tom, thank you so much for making time for us today. Bill, thank you so much for having me. It's really a pleasure. I appreciated receiving your invite and I'm really excited to get to chat with your audience and the broader audience today. So, thank you. My pleasure. And I'd seen you in an article in Reverse Mortgage Magazine a while ago and it just seemed like you really are on track with what I think are the reasons I launched this podcast. I think the two of the things are one there should be 10 times as much reverse mortgage activity as there is being done. And I'm a real estate broker and I know that on my transactions that I see there should be more. And second, the there needs to be more loan engineers focus on purchase using this product. That's I think where the biggest opportunity is being missed right now. I know you're on board with both those. Let's talk about those initiatives maybe at fairway. Let's talk about first off how are you evangelizing or how are you encouraging your loan originators and originators from other companies to look at the HECMs and reverse mortgages as products to help their customers? Well, it's a great question. Thank you, Bill. We've been I mean I've been doing this for a long time. I've been in the reverse mortgage space for about 20 years. I started out I tell people fetching coffee for Robert Wagner in the Senior Lending Network television commercials. Wow. And then went on to eventually write, direct, produce and manage the back of all those commercials. So, I evangelizing is a great work. I did that. I did do that. Yes. So, working with some great folks in the industry, David Peskin, Gene Noble, Roy Dah, you know, we were able to create a really unique campaign and then that campaign traveled from company to company for a while, eventually splintered off, became the u Tom Cell

2:04 Campaign that exists today. So, That sense of evangelizing is something I've been doing for a long time. And quite honestly, I feel like we haven't broken through. Despite all the money spent and despite all of the energy put in by really good, hardworking people, including those celebrity spokespeople and all, let's not discount at all the boots on the ground loan officers that have been selling reverse mortgages for the last 20 years. We've yet to crack the code. And I think part of the reason we struggle cracking the code is because we're trying to crack the wrong code. You know, we're putting the wrong key in the lock. And key and lock is exactly the concept that I think we need to focus on. Fairway is a really unique company because what we do is we provide people funding to buy homes. And we can do that in a myriad of ways. If you happen to be over 62, we have a product that allows you to get into a loan in a different way. And if you are over 62, you may not want to be making mortgage payments for the next 30 years. So by using an H4P, we give you an opportunity to buy perhaps a larger home with more of the features that you would like and also not have to make any payments unless you want to. So that flexibility and that optional side of everything that comes down with the HP is so helpful and rewarding as someone is making their life plan in their post 62 years. So from our perspective, we want people to understand that purchasing a home with this loan should be as quote unquote normal as getting a loan for any other any other type of loan for your property. You know, and I'm embarrassed to admit, I live in Los Angeles and we've been looking I've been looking to move to Florida. My wife's not ready to move. So without a divorce, I can't go, but I fantasize about going to Florida. I look at properties there and we have some cash that we could not sell our house and make that work somehow. And so I'm looking to buy a house for cash and it occurred to me like after years of looking at this but hold on for a second if I'm going to live there that's my

4:07 Residence I can get a loan and that's like maybe 30 40% of what I would pay for I could buy a big you know instead of buying this I'm not happy with I could buy this bigger house not have a mortgage payment enjoy the nicer house for when I went to which is the last year's month. I'm a real estate broker. I literally was an originator for years. I wrote reverse mortgages. I and I know the product exists and I didn't think about it. So, how do we get this product? And you have originators at Fairway and you have originators that are you guys wholesale to across the country who know about forward or traditional mortgages who don't even know there's a H for purchase program. Yeah. How do we get that? You know, I have this podcast. Hopefully, we're going to educate people. What's your plan? How do you see yourself getting the message out to more originators about this opportunity? So, I think it really comes down to the math and one of our fun little campaigns that we've rolled out recently is just a simple table tent for an open house. I had a number of realators on a webinar that we did just last week and I asked them via the chat, when you have an open house, how many people come into that open house that can't afford the home they're looking at in the open house? And the Realtor® said probably 75%. I don't know if you find that 80% ask. That's for sure. So what we love is just saying to the folks who are over 62, if you think you can't afford this house, you might be wrong. Would you like us to show you how? So, you know, the beauty of this is that I think we are all aspirational in our home buying. We always want to step up to the next best thing whether it's moving to a better climate or as you're heading to Florida potentially or if we want to live closer to our family and actually that was one of the things that kind of kicked this passion off for me in a new way. My parents, and I'm not going to get into specific ages because my mother would kill me, but my parents have been qualified for the loan for some time. And in their previous residence, they kept saying things like, "Well, I don't know if we need that yet." Now, that's a whole other conversation that

6:09 We can have another time, Bill, about who needs a reverse mortgage and when because everyone should get one as soon as they possibly can, 100%. But in this case, it wasn't until my parents decided to move that I was able to just show them the math. And I think that's the thing is that we spend so much time in the reverse mortgage industry saying, "Hey, we have this special thing and you can come and join us in this mission to rethink retirement and change this and change that." But when it comes down to the math of buying a home, so many of us are going to say, "Well, what can I afford? How much can I afford?" So my mission is to use this new tool we have called mortgage builder and show folks this is how much you could probably afford if you went down a conventional path and this is how much more you could potentially afford if you went down the H4P path and then the next step I think is once we start educating people about the numbers and showing them that in certain cases so let's take your example Bill for a look see for a second here so let's just say hypothetically you're moving from California to Florida you probably have a fair amount. You said you have a lot of cash equity in the home. You could potentially double the size of your investment in Florida because, you know, if you have enough cash to put down between 50 and 70% of the down payment on that home, you know, you could potentially add two to three to $400,000 in additional purchasing power down there. And that's the part I think people miss. They just don't understand that, hey, I can get a much bigger, better house and my monthly PNI mortgage payments are optional. Still have to pay my taxes insurance. We all know that, right? That's a big piece of the H4P. But no payment, more house. I mean, we have a great partner that we work with on the Realtor® side and her tagline when she speaks to everyone, actually your audience probably knows her name, Jenny Field. She's amazing.

8:02 She does some great work. Jenny will say to folks, do you want to make a payment or not? And it's that simple, right? So what I'm trying to do is just get back to the simplicity, right? Getting a loan is not a complicated thing. When people need to buy a home these days, very few of them go out with cash in hand to buy a home, right? Everyone is looking for some kind of financing. This is also simple financing. It's just you get a special added advantage in your financing if you are over the age of 62. So, why not take advantage of that advantage, right? Here's your here's your opportunity. You know, my parents in particular wanted to move closer to my sister. They were concerned that they wouldn't be able to buy the type of house they wanted in her neighborhood because they had lived a little further out in the country outside of Philadelphia and where they wanted to move was much closer to the city and the market was very hot in that neighborhood. And it wasn't until I sat them down and showed them, hey, look, you can afford to live there. They truly thought they wouldn't be able to get into that neighborhood. And with a conventional loan, they would they probably couldn't have and would have been making payments until they were 92 years old. But instead, I showed them this option. Once the math clicked in, they were like, "Oh, why wouldn't we do this?" And they really have nothing to lose in doing it. So, that's what I'm trying to help people understand is, you know, we hear all this negative stuff out there, but it really at the end of the day has nothing to do with the math or the practicalities of buying a home. It has to do with some kind of emotional hangover that people have about reverse mortgages. This is just like any other loan and we want to help people learn how to use it. Well, I will say I think the biggest negative as a real estate agent dealing with in probate in particular is the negative of the servicing and that there's a lot of I'm in California might be different elsewhere but it when the deedent when the borrowers pass and become deedent it seems like the originator is not involved anymore which is a mistake that's the first loss of opportunity.

10:01 Now you have kids who are trying to negotiate their way. They never paid a mortgage before, right? And the process they go by calling the servicing center is horrific. And in California at least, what happens is the companies that make loans like Fairway sell them the servicing rights at that point and the company takes over is just a foreclosure or payoff mill. They're unlike a company like Fairway has a reputation and standing in the industry to protect. The servicing is a nightmare that people hold against the industry unfortunately. And that's why I do this podcast to encourage your originators to say never lose track of your customer. That's the opportunity for more business of the future because now the kids are going to introduce you to their estate planning attorney. Now they're going to introduce you to the fiduciary. Now they're going to introduce you to the wealth planner. All these are the people you want to meet and you're going out to network them. Your chances to be their hero. And so if there's one thing I would say to fairway originators who do reverses or don't but refer them to experts that do within your system do stay in attention to your customers. This is your opportunity for more business. So to your point I think the stink of the product is self-inflicted and I'm trying to find ways you know and look obviously I'm talking to the EVP of reverse marketing and technology. So I'm throwing my campaign on you Tom. How do we get originators to understand that the business of doing a loan is not a transaction but really if we make a transaction we're going to lose to Google and Facebook and the big websites. How do we make the relationship so that we can keep that business? That's a great point, Bill.

11:35 And I think that's one of the things that Fairway does a really effective job of. We have an amazing servicing department at Fairway. And we do service some of our own portfolio and then we do have other folks that cover parts of it for us. Obviously, Calink, which is one of the largest services of reverse mortgages, is a partner that we work with very carefully. So, we kind of attack this from two angles. One is educating our originators. And I would say our reverse specific originators do a great job of staying in touch with their customers after the fact. And they make themselves available so that if and when the loan does mature, we're there as a resource. We also try to provide a lot of resources upfront with the closing package so that people understand how things are going to go, including, you know, you're catching us a little bit ahead of the game, but we're looking to potentially add, and please safe harbor this, it hasn't rolled out yet. A sort of postclo counseling opportunity so that people can get an understanding after they've handled all of the documentation because when you're in that moment signing all the paperwork, it can be a lot to process. But having a session afterwards where you can sit down and learn how to get access to your funds, how to use the website, and then what does happen at the end of the loan is important. So we have a concept that I rolled out here a while back that we call fairway forever because we do want to be involved in every transaction. From our perspective, if we help you buy your first home, we want to help you get that HP down the line and then help your heirs to handle the transaction that gets them into the home after that. So, as most people know, you know, it is fairly straightforward at the end when a loan matures, when a borrower leaves the home permanently, whether they are leaving the home due to illness or they pass away. There are a couple of options.

13:16 One is to, you know, refinance the loan, which you mentioned, and let the heirs retain the house if they would like to, and I believe they can do that at 95% of the appraised value at the time, or they can do what's a deed in lie of foreclosure, which is actually pretty straightforward. Also essentially you sign the house over and then that the bank will sell the house and luckily the FHA mortgage insurance will allow the bank to be made whole and the borrower or their heirs are not responsible for any difference between those two values. So I agree with you. We can always be better at improving that piece of the puzzle. And you know, I do think that while we've had a couple of servicesers in the past who have popped up and done a really poor job, Sealink is always trying to do their best to assist their customers and expand their offerings. So, Fairway is, I think, very capable of growing alongside that. And because they are so focused on being someone's originator for life and not just for a transaction, it helps us cover some of those gaps that pop up for some of the other companies. But yeah, I agree with you. We have to make sure that because this is a privileged class of folks and because when people are grieving, it's very hard to think about all the probate stuff and all the financial side of things. We need to make sure it's very simple when the loan matures for people to be able to take advantage of services, communication, and humans to help them at that point to get them over that hump. So, I agree with you. It's a it's a place for improvement. But still, I think in most cases, we also have to think about the flip side of all of that, right? Which is what does the lifetime piece of the loan look like, right? I use a phrase here a lot of the time. We want to be able to live a legacy instead of leave a legacy necessarily, right? So my parents, for example, you know, yes, there will be a time at the end of that loan where we'll have to figure out as their heirs what to do with their home, but in the meantime, they've been able to put a new

15:19 Roof on the house and a new kitchen in the house and they're babysitting my grandkid, my not my grandkids, my nephews this weekend so that they can have fun with them. And, you know, a lot of that wouldn't be as easy if they were making that mandatory mortgage payment every month. So, I think it's about looking at the entire process, right? How do we make it easy on the front end? How do we make it easy throughout to access funds and take advantage of their credit lines? And then how do we make it easy at the end? Because it is a sensitive time in someone's life. But I think that if we're all working towards that goal, we can do that. Most originators who do forward loans, I think, do spent forward sort of the phrase we throw out there that non-reverse loans. Folks that do forward loans are doing a good job staying in with their customers because they're making sure their customers are right sized into their mortgage and they do like an annual checkup, right? They call in because let's be honest, there may be additional transactions as part of that, right? I think we have the same advantage on the H4P side, which is, you know, you can refinance an H4P into another HECMs loan very easily. And in many cases, especially with the way homes have been appreciating lately, it's of tremendous value to the homeowner to buy the home with a HECMs and then also use a HECM to access more funds in five years perhaps. Right. Well, there's a lot there obviously, Tom. One thing I do want to say is a shout out to Sealink. I do know they're they are concerned about the problems of the servicing and working to prove it. I know through a vendor that I work with as well that they're really launching a new program and they're making their effort. I do know they come to the reverse national reverse mortgage loan lender association meetings to you know interact to say how can we do better. So you know kudos to them to try it's a ch is a very challenging job and I also want to say you know def fairway when I you know being in this business a while you know I meet all kinds of originators some companies you meet them you just know you're never going to see that originator again when I meet somebody and I don't want to name any companies and dispersion Bank America Wells Fargo I don't want to say anything bad about those companies those big banks but you know fairway I you know those originators have either been

17:21 Around for a long time or you guys brought them to another company where they have an established relationship and I think for the most part my experience with fairway originators is they are very focused on building a purchase portfolio working with Realtors® or somebody in the long run and the successful ones I know a couple of them have built books of business where like an insurance agent they look at their client list as they're booked and they obviously those originators are ripe for reverse mortgages in that annual review is in line they're probably doing it as a forward or regular mortgage anyhow once a year the really good agents are originators with reverse mortgage is required. Why not blend that into your business? So to me, it's just a natural now. But fairway you don't differentiate originators between reverse and forward. They're they your originators can all do both or do you have a separate department for the reverse? We have it's up to the originator how they like to handle their business. And that's the beauty of Fairway. It is very independent and you have opportunities to come here and sort of platform yourself as you see fit. That's fairway independent. Exactly. Exactly. And that's what Steve Jacobson has created for the company and he's just done a phenomenal job of setting that tone. We just had our annual meeting recently and you know the culture of the company is so powerful and I didn't know that coming in. You know what I was going to say is that I had u I mean I kne I was aware of the company's culture but I didn't understand what it would be to be a part of it and be inside it.

18:45 And you don't really know until you get here but it is transformative. As you mentioned, our agents do take everything that we do very close to heart. We're very invested in helping people and changing lives. And, you know, Steve always says, you know, loans are what we do. They're not who we are. And who we are is a company that focuses on people's well-being. We have many charitable situ charitable programs that we run that are out to help veterans and others. And, you know, we have a foundation, we have Fairway Cares. These things are all designed to help people and honestly I have to say this, many companies do a great job in the mortgage space of giving back where they can. Fairway takes it to a whole level. You mentioned sort of the lifetime relationship that we try to establish with our borrowers and you know I worked in a lot of call center environments before I came over to Fairway and I worked with amazing loan officers who are very passionate about helping people but the nature of that transaction means you're not sitting at a kitchen table. Most often, right? You're closing the loan over the phone and the internet. And when I came over to Fairway, it took a little bit of adjustment for me to say, "Okay, these are folks that want to get out in the street, meet with their customers, carry that application package to them. How do we make it work for them so that it's super easy for them on the fly to educate their customers?" And it's been a really fun challenge, but I love where Fairway has gotten with that on the reverse side.

20:13 So, long answer to your short question. You can go either way here if you'd like, but if you want to do a reverse mortgage as your career path, we can we can train to be a HECMs a HECMs loan specialist. If you want to do one now and again, you can very easily refer them in as you mentioned earlier to someone who does have more experience with the loan. And then we have some hybrid programs as well that allow you assistance to generate the loan on your own if it's something that you want to mentor your way into. So we have plenty of options available and I can see as a company I appreciate both sides. One theory is we want we want specialists and only you know Huckham originators and everybody has to either be one or refer to them and the other side is being more independent. As a businessman I appreciate that I built my business I expanded from residential to non-residential properties commercial industrial where my old brokerage wouldn't allow me to whereas EXP realy not only allows me but gives me the support train to do it well at a high level. I know Fairway, one of my longest in fact my brother was an originator at Fairway years ago. John Schlicking in West Cabin Sad Demis area, Coco Marello, longtime originators. I don't know if they're certified for reverse or not. Here's what I know. John's going to do a good job. Either he is or he isn't, but he's going to find out what your need is and figure a way to solve it.

21:30 Either himself or a colleague of his. And I trust John enough that he would do that well and Koka enough to know they would do that. And I think that's the key is your originators in my experience tend to be deeper relationships with referral sources like real estate agents. And that way if you trust them then you're going to trust and make the right decision. And so it really gets down to having good people I think to make it work for a company. Absolutely. And we have we have the best people. They're embedded in their community and in their partnerships. And those partnerships are so valued. It really is kind of amazing. You know, sometimes it's easy to get lazy when you're thinking, "Okay, well, I'm going to get internet leads all the time and there's going to be a steady stream of that." And, you know, when we recruit people here, we tell them upfront, there may be some leads that will trickle down here and there, but if you're coming to Fairway, you better be prepared to build your business on the backbone of creating relationships and having conversations. You know, you can't wait for all the conversations to roll in. In your line of work, you know, Bill, you're not sitting waiting for buyers and sellers to come into your hands. You're going out and you're working to network and create them. And that's what Fairway does, too. And it really is a beautiful thing. And just I love I love the fact that our goal I mean, we're a purchase company at the end of the day, you know, when there's important. Let's just stop right there because I you know, you said it. So, now I thought that was a case. I hed around a case, but you said the words you're a purchase company. And I think there that is somebody who's willing to work with a customer and solve a problem and be held accountable for that problem because typically you don't work with a consumer over and over again. Typically you're working with a Realtor® or a professional who's also going to hold you accountable. And when you guys say that it's different than the call center who okay, you know, they get eight out of 10 right and two go bad. They don't care.

23:15 You guys care because if you mess up two of my 10 deals, we're not going to do business together again. So I'm sorry to interrupt you, but that's such a statement. It's a tremendous point and that leans into two key things that really do make Fairway different which is one we are very focused on speed and not just speed to act but speed to respond. When you have a need we understand that it is paramount that we address that need quickly and efficiently. And what comes behind that is you know Steve puts the company behind every transaction. I have seen him get involved in closings. If there was an issue he'll personally get involved. He's on our closing 911 distribution list. He'll jump in and do whatever it takes to solve that situation. If we need to help find housing for someone in the interim in between, you know, their two houses or something, the company will go out of their way to make that happen. And that dedication to clean and fast and equitable and convenient closings is what we're all about. So the beauty of that on the HECMs side is that people think that if you're going to do a heck of a purchase, it's going to take a year to close the deal. We can do a heck of a purchase in 15 days. You know, it's competitive with a cash offer in most cases. So it really does change the paradigm a little bit. And when an originator that I know and trust says they can do in 15 days, it's real. I get people all the time who call me and say I can close 15 days. I ask them a few questions and they fold like a house of cards. And again, that's the distinction that you guys are in the purchase market. You're involved with us on a deep level regularly. Your reputation is on the line of every deal you do. And so I think that's a that's a really an important distinction that I appreciate. And so like I said, generally speaking, you know, I do advocate a lot for the certifications and the companies that require that with their company, but again, I wouldn't want to work there. You know, just as a Realtor®, I wouldn't work for a company said, "Oh, you can only do commercial if you only do commercial because I also do make a good living in residential." And

25:17 My clients, my attorneys would be forced to make a decision. I don't want them to make the decision. I want to serve my client. Well, and so that's the at the end of the day where we come from. You know, Tom, look, I appreciate this. You obviously work on some pretty big things for a pretty big company at Fairway where oftentimes we deal with originators who are looking to build their business. But if you want to point people to learn more about Fairway Mortgage and some of your initiatives, what's the best place for them to look at for that? If you're interested in the hecking for purchase side, please come to fairway reverse.com. If you're just looking to learn more about Fairway and what we can do for you, fairway.com is our main corporate site. There is thousands of pieces of content between those two sites about everything that we do. And it's what helps us create and manage and maintain our partnerships. And you know, we want to make sure that we're always focused on taking advantage of our network which is spread across the country today. You know, that's the beauty is that we have boots on the street all over the country and we can work with real estate agents all over the country to help get people into the right home at the right price. And the one thing that I always like to remind folks that are on the real estate professional side is we have a unique opportunity here to sort of redefine the industry. You know, when we run into situations where inventory is very low, in many cases it's because people can't move up and out of starter homes into something new and better, the H4P is a key to make that transformation happen. So, if we could actually dial in, let's just say hypothetically, I think the numbers were there were about 300 I actually had the numbers right in front of me. I apologize, but I'll pick them up.

26:52 About 30% of home buyers right now are over the age of 55. It's fair to say we are tapping about 0.1% of that buying market with the HP. That's 0.1%. 01 of the customers. So, if we can move that needle to 1% and then to 10%, which is our goal as a company, suddenly that much more inventory is going to free up for the Gen Xers and the millennials to move into new homes or get into starter homes because that inventory will get freed up. So, it really could change the face of the real estate industry, which would change the face of the American economy. Well, even people don't sell the house and stay there are going to improve the house, make it safer. You know, as an older person, I'm 66. You know, bars here and changing, you know, a ramp, not for me, my wife had some issues, a ramp. These are all things that you can spend money on to make your house safe if you want to stay in place. Like you mentioned, your parents with the or the story about with the roof and the and the work being done, but those people have to pay people to do the work. So from an economy point of view, increasing the reverse mortgage 10 times will have a tremendous effect of unleashing equity and putting it to use rather than sitting where people don't want it. Again, no judgment on where your equity is, but if you don't want it in the house and you want to put it into improving the house, you should have the chance to do that and the HECM opportunity gives you that and heck for purchase gives you that from the start when you buy the house. So Tom, I just can't thank you enough. Again, I enjoyed reading you in the article at Reverse Mortgage Magazine and I'll continue to follow you going forward. I see your content on your fairway reverse mortgage com website. Thank you so much for joining us today and helping teach more about In fact, let me just wrap one last thing. I'm going to say it. I was I was debating this whole time before we spoke.

28:40 Yeah. And you can't react to this because it's talking about your competition. Our business America is built into two different types of companies. The online globalist company and the local entrepreneur in real estate is Zillow and Red Fin against real estate agents. Their goal was to disrupt us and guess what Red Fin lost and the piece of being picked up by Rocket Mortgage. Rocket Mortgage is kind of in my book and you can't react to this Tom. I get it. Is the opposite of Fairway. I haven't met a Rockway a Rocket Mortgage agent. They don't come out to local real estate events. They don't build their business based on us. They're the opposite. They're online. It's a call center. And I think there's a place for those people. But for us as professionals who are in the business serving customers, we need the independent local person who's a businessman or woman who are going to put their resources on the line to help us serve our customers and we'll come out ahead. And Fairway is committed to that. That's the kind of company you guys are. And I appreciate it. And so I really want to support you guys as we do more reverse mortgages. And that requires, and you said it requires somebody who's going to carry the application to the customer's house to explain at the kitchen table. Here's the numbers. Here's why there's no payment. Here's how much you're going to save. I agree with you, but let me let me leave it at this because I think at the end of the day, what we need to remember as professionals who are serving these communities is the customer should get to choose the path the customer wants to take. Right? Some people these days want to do everything online and they don't want someone to come to their house. And that's okay, too. But the beauty of this is that both of those customer groups exist and need to be served. Yes. And we have an opportunity to serve all of them. And you know, that's why I'm never going to shy away from technology. You know, we are rolling out some new platforms potentially. And some of them are going to be very new to the reverse mortgage space. But something that we have to keep in mind, Bill, as we're aging ourselves, is that, you know, folks that are turning 62 today have had the internet for most of their working lives, you know, 30 years, right? Right. So, and they most of them probably graduated from high school in 1980, right? So, it's a it's a situation where our reverse mortgage

30:43 Customers want more tech. They still want the personal touch, but they want the tech when they want it. So, our job in both the real estate world and in the mortgage world is to give the customers what they need at all times so that they can feel safe, comfortable, and connected as they make this transaction a reality. And I think we can all do that together. And that's the beauty of it. Well, you guys for a while had like a click on a link here and fill out the application. You have all the tech that you could do online, but what you have that some other companies don't have is the real originators, the John Shook things. Shout out Koka. Shout out to people come to somebody's house or have an office that they can go to when they to add. So the technology is done online, but that trust and that like factor is done in individually and then they follow them as it goes on forever because they built the relationship. So again Tom, thank you so much for sharing this and continue good luck. Look forward to seeing as you guys develop and look forward to your content going forward. It's been a pleasure. You know, stay in touch. Just remember, we got to be HECMs proud as we move forward. And if you We also have some fun videos on boommovers.com, which are sort of more touching the hearts of our customers who are over 62. Little nostalgia, a little fun, and talking about how they can get that heck for purchase and change the world. I love that hashtag heck proud. Tom, thank you so much. Thank you. Talk to you soon. And for everybody here, this is the Reverse Mortgage Podcast. We do this every week.

32:01 We most commonly interview originators today. Really had the exciting opportunity to talk to an executive and one of the largest companies, but we do it every week and we have a Facebook group if you want to continue the conversation there. You have referrals, questions, feel free to shout out there. And as well on the podcast in general, however you're watching this, put questions down to get back to me. Like this, subscribe this, reach out if I can help in any way. I'm at Bill Gross Probate. As always, make today your