Special Needs in Estate Planning, with Aaron Feldman

0:02 I always tell people that probate is a is is a super niche within which there's many different niches and that's true for real estate agents and true for attorneys. I also find that those who specialize are by far the best even if they are you know specialized in their niche, they're also the best in the thing most parallel to their niche. And we're excited today to have an attorney who specializes in special needs in probate and avoiding special needs probate in proper estate planning. Aaron Feldman, the founder of the Feldman Law Group Aaron, thank you for making time with us today.

0:32 Oh, thank you for having me, Bill. So, I know if I ask you the question, what's the most common problem in probate for special needs? It's not planning ahead. So, let's take that one off the table for example I know it's that's difficult to do. What are some of the things that you do to help people get them started on thinking about the special needs requirements and at least get the first steps in the planning process started to avoid the bigger problems down the line.

0:57 Right. So, when I talk about special needs from my perspective I'm working with families whose children are going to or are receiving needs-based benefits. SSI in particular is a very restrictive benefit. So, if you have more than $2,000 in a countable resource you will lose your SSI benefits. So a lot of times somebody will come to me because they have they're going to receive a distribution from a probate. And they need to immediately create a special needs trust that is designed to allow them to continue receiving public benefits and have that inheritance put into an irrevocable trust for their benefit.

1:45 And so, I think you're talking about the need both to provide assets for the benefit of the special needs recipient as well as provide for the needs when the heir isn't around anymore, right? Cuz there's two different issues if you're a parent is while you're alive you want there's certain things you want to do. And then but typically parents outlive their children, you have to prepare for that transition as well.

2:07 Right. So, what we hope parents will do is to create a special needs trust within their estate planning. But, what happens sometimes is there's a grandparent, an aunt, an uncle who will just name someone as a beneficiary without taking into consideration the fact that they are receiving public benefits and are very restricted in what they can own. And so, that will mess up their public benefits and there is a way to create a trust for those types of scenarios

2:44 Right. coming out of probate distributions. but, we like to of course plan ahead. That's the best way to avoid that scenario.

2:54 Right. So, now at what age do special needs recipients receive public assistance? When they're children does it go to the family or do they receive it directly to the children? And at what age does it get cut off or what? Do they reapply? How does that process work?

3:08 So, for very low-income families they might receive SSI benefits when their children are minors. but, that's a that's not a population that I work with typically because I'm working with families who have assets who are thinking about doing estate planning. So, they're not going to qualify for benefits when their child is under 18. But, when a child turns 18, they are legally an adult. And if they are unable to work because they have a developmental or other major disability then they qualify for SSI benefits. And those benefits have that asset limit of $2,000.

3:54 Got it. And so the idea is there is provide assets in a way that you can provide for the needs of the child without hitting that estate threshold for the child and they can also continue to receive the public benefits as well.

4:06 Right. And if the parents do their estate planning properly, it's called a third-party special needs trust because it's the parents' money that is going into this irrevocable trust and in California, Medi-Cal does not have a right to recover against those assets in the trust. And so the parents can also be planning on having their inheritance or the portion that's going to that special needs trust pass on to their other children or perhaps grandchildren. So it has a dual benefit, really, if you plan properly.

4:46 Now, I see, you know, litigation regularly as I'm waiting in court for some other matter of these kinds of matters. And so I imagine that if somebody hasn't prepared the trust ahead of time and there's an inheritance, there's a process that you establish to put the money into a trust on behalf of the recipient. So what petition is that in California? What does that process look like?

5:11 So first of all, if the individual has capacity, then they're they're allowed to create their own first-party special needs trust and it's called a self-settled trust. But they have to have the capacity to do that.

5:27 And when you say self-settled, you mean the mental capacity to agree with you. They don't have to have to write the document out. They'd be able to go to an attorney, get the document prepared, and have the capacity to assent to the documents, but they may not Maybe they're blind or they're unable to physically provide for themselves through some other reason, but they have the mental capacity is what you're talking about when you say capacity.

5:47 Yes, I'm talking about just the same capacity we look to for example a client comes to us early stages of dementia maybe but they still have the capacity to create an estate plan legally cuz legal capacity is a is a whole different framework than you know medical determinations of capacity. And so that's what we're looking for. And that's ideally if we can have somebody with capacity create a self-settled trust that's easiest. If they can't then it's we have to go through a very long process because they may have to be conserved cuz they don't have capacity to create those documents. Somebody has to be empowered to create the document for them. And in conservatorship it's called substituted judgment. And that's where we're basically the conservator is creating an estate plan and substituting their judgment for the judgment of the conservatee saying this is what he probably would want, you know, and typically that estate plan is very simple. You know, if you're you're talking about following distributions to direct family lines that's very easily done. So it's expensive though. you know

7:10 It's expensive cuz you have so first of all you have you have several parties involved, right? The conservatee needs to have representation. You have somebody who's planning to do the conservatorship. They need representation. It's a tedious process. You know, I see two sides of this. I'd love to get your input. On one hand it seems tedious, it's expensive, it's difficult, it's regulated and still California we do that with getting a driver's license. On the flip side I think it needs to be to protect the conservatee perhaps and protect the conservatorship or the assets. So I want I see why it's difficult. On the other hand, I see why it should be at least should be a high bar, right? People shouldn't be able to take over somebody's rights without their So, where do you fall out on that balance?

7:56 So, obviously, in the last few years, we've seen the fallout from the Britney Spears case, right? that was a disaster, a long-running disaster, in which her rights were abused

8:10 I would agree. I actually interviewed one of the attorneys who did a lot of the work on for the press on that topic in detail, and in my own assessment, I agree. And having been in court many times, watching the drama of it, I not in the court hearings on the case cuz they were always closed, but just being in the courthouse on the day of the events, it was just a circus.

8:30 Right. And so, obviously, there is a high bar because every conservatorship is taking rights away from an adult. And that is why there is an attorney appointed by the court to represent the individual.

8:45 Right. There used to be a little bit of a problem because the attorney that was appointed is giving a report to the court. So, the role was unclear as to who his loyalties were with, the attorney's loyalties. And it's been clarified now, post-Britney Spears, that that attorney has to advocate exclusively for the conservatee. So, even if they object, even though they are really in need of conservatorship, the attorney must process that objection.

9:20 Interesting. and so, what courts now do is sometimes, in cases, is appoint a second person to be the guardian ad litem for the conservatee to advise the court of what they think is in the conservatee's best interests, versus what the attorney advocating for the conservatee wants.

9:41 Interesting. It gets messy. I guess that's the bottom line. messy, it gets tedious, it gets expensive cuz you have all these attorneys, they all have their bills. They rightfully should all get paid. I mean, nobody should have to do that for free. Though, I do see sometimes attorneys get appointed and can't get off of it. The judge, you know, isn't quick to let them off the work cuz they signed on to it. It's a tough process.

10:04 Right. And in Contra Costa County, where my office is located, the attorneys are selected from a panel of list of attorneys who volunteer to be appointed in these cases. They do get paid, but it's a much lower hourly rate than what we would normally charge. whereas Alameda County, right next door to me, is a public defender county. So, the person representing the conservatee is going to be the public defender or another public law firm that exists just for those assignments.

10:40 And for me, who's ever watched these cases, it's amazing that you'll see these you know, requests for our fees and it'll be like, you know, $1,236.18. And you think, "Well, why are they getting into the pennies on this and the rates and the numbers that end up" And the answer is because they're already are at a lower rate than they normally would accept the work at to it's not necessarily pro bono, but it's kind of to get in good with the judge and the case and the bar and to do some good work. So, it's it's a very delicate area. And I think the one thing I pull out of this is if you can avoid all that, you want to avoid it as much as you can, right? So, how much of that can you avoid with proper planning?

11:20 Well, with proper planning, you can avoid all of it, you know. in fact, in the conservatorship paperwork that the petition itself, it says, "Why can't we use something less restrictive? Why can't we just use a power of attorney or a health care directive? Or some sort of supported decision-making model. And you know, obviously ideally, we would want to create those documents and to prevent having to be in the conservatorship arena.

11:54 Right. And preparing all the documents is probably less than half of the retainer when you start going to court, I would think. Oh, conservatorship is not only is it expensive going in, but if there's an estate involved, you know, money, then there is annual, bi-annual accountings that you have to file with the court,

12:14 Right. which are very burdensome and on average, even in simple accountings that I file every 2 years on a conservatorship, it's four or five grand in attorney's fees every 2 years.

12:28 And then I would occasionally see a family member who for whatever reason thinks they're getting their money spent and they'll complain, oh well, the you know, the attorney or the guardian, you know, took them to lunch and they went to Wendy's and they ordered this and that and they got two fries or they got two an apple pie for dessert. You know, so instead of $18, it's it should be $16. And I would say, do you realize per hour what you're charging here to have this fight over two bucks? It's just But you add the emotions in and it and it you know, I get it.

13:00 It's an emotional situation. Somebody doesn't capacity with the law and the cost of all this, it gets to be out of control. Right. And so, just to circle around this, in the limited conservatorships for someone with a developmental disability, families are typically coming together and there usually isn't an estate involved and those are pretty basic. Those work very smoothly. When you're getting into, you know, mom and dad's needing a conservatorship and they have an estate and they have money, then you have that situation where the siblings start pulling the knives out and that those get ugly. I try to avoid heavily contested matters like that because they are a mess and it's it's a lot of emotional and mental stress to even work on those cases.

13:55 So, I know that when I see an attorney work in this space, there is some sort of itch that they had to scratch when they started in this. What was it that got you into this particular niche as such an important part of your business?

14:06 So, I began as a general litigation attorney. You know, in fact, I did legal malpractice. I defended lawyers for about 7 or 8 years as part of my practice. And at some point, I was in a partnership that was about to dissolve and I decided at that point that I did not want to continue being primarily a litigator. And a very good friend of mine from law school had a daughter who was disabled and she started telling me about the special needs space and really encouraging me to get involved because she felt there was a need and so I just dove in and became really very excited to work with those families particularly in contrast with litigation.

14:59 It seems to me as an outsider that this is an area like some other parts of law that are growing in that you know, for whatever reason we have more people with various special needs. Maybe the definitions are being more broad and maybe more accepting of others definitions than the past. and we're becoming more litigious not let less litigious as a society and there aren't enough attorneys I from just as an outsider now I'm in LA County I don't work up north. But just as an outsider real estate agent it seemed like there aren't enough attorneys that work in this space. Is that also true in Northern California and why do you think that is?

15:38 Well, I think it is a growing field number one. That's that you hit the nail on the head there. and part of it is diagnosis driven, you know, people are being children are being tested and evaluated at younger and younger ages. They're trying to catch it earlier to because there's certain therapies that can help, if they are be initiated at a younger age. So, that's part of why that it's an expanding field. And in terms of getting involved in it is something that requires a lot of extra, you know, knowledge, education, and training. so that's an area that a reason why some people aren't as motivated to really deal with special needs because the issues can get very complex. so that's you know, up here we have two of the California's most significant special needs lawyers right in my backyard and one of them hosts a major conference every February. So, for me it's easy to stay current and at the top of my game when it comes to helping with special needs.

17:00 From a business development point of view, what percentage of business comes from families or, you know, individuals seeking help, consumers, versus what percentage it comes from attorneys that know there's a need for some sort of litigation or some sort of filings and protections but don't have the expense themselves to do it.

17:20 So, in my practice overall I would say that about 35% of my practice comes from either internet or referral sources. And that the rest of it is returning clients or client referrals. So, I've done work for a family and especially in the special needs communities, you tend to find a lot of networking cuz they're all trying to figure out how to get the better services and dealing with those issues. So, they talked a lot to one another. And so, they refer me cases as well.

18:03 As a real estate agent, I don't know that special needs is as deep a reservoir of business for me but is more something that I feel passionate about helping families avoid the worst side of because I know that if you plan ahead, you can eliminate a lot of the heartache. certainly the legal heartache and expenses or a lot of it. and failing to plan is just walking into a buzzsaw that nobody understands. And so, I really encourage people to do that. So, what percentage of your business is estate planning or avoiding these situations or managing one legally as opposed to you know, you have a situation that's there's some litigation, somebody's fighting it, or somebody's trying to do conservatorship that's out of line. What percentage of your business is is planning ahead and planning for these things versus litigation or the actual you know, processing?

19:03 So, currently I am I'm trying to steer away from all-out litigation type cases. But you know, probates are a large part of my practice and those are typically not contested, but they are they're a court process. Similarly, I get involved in trust-related cases that are probate-adjacent, where we have to file petitions to achieve a result, but we're not contesting it, we're not fighting about it. And [snorts] so, as an example, real estate agents often are a great referral source to me for probate, because they are they've started working with a client and all of a sudden they get a title report and the people don't even realize that it's still in mom's name. They just figured after mom died, they were the beneficiary, so it's theirs and they just live there, they pay the property taxes and 10 years go by, right? And then when they pass away, the grandchild of the original owner is the one who wants to sell it. So, that's one big area. Then other, you know, when somebody even has a let's say a revocable living trust, sometimes there are assets that are outside of their trust by accident. They never titled a stock account in the name of the trust.

20:32 And there's a procedure called a Heggstad petition that allows us to move that asset into the trust. Occasionally, it's even real estate-related. cuz we sure hope to avoid probate of a real estate asset, because in the Bay Area, particularly, the value starts out very high. So, the fees and costs are high to do that.

21:04 Th- This podcast is national, but to my knowledge, there is no other state that has anything like a Heggstad petition. I mean, I talked to attorneys in other states. They can't believe that we allow us to kind of go back in time and put the property in the trust. but there is such a thing in California and but I to my knowledge, it doesn't exist anywhere else.

21:22 Right. And to be clear to the audience, a Heggstad petition basically tells the court that we have proof that they intended this asset to be a trust asset. And so we're just going to wave a magic wand over it and call it a trust asset.

21:39 It's such a California thing that we do that. I just find that I still find that just so amusing at such a deep level. Well, but probate is so expensive. So it's it's really a wonderful godsend that we're able to do it. I mean, again, you take a average house in the central Contra Costa area, Walnut Creek, Lafayette, Orinda, you're pretty much starting at a million dollars and going up. A million dollars is a $23,000 attorney fee for probate. And then there's could be extraordinary expenses that drive it higher than that. So, you know, compared to a simple petition, the cost and time and delay of probate is it's really terrific that we're able to do that.

22:23 It is amazing tool and you know, I remember I was at a trust networking event and the attorney was describing it and he actually attached copies of petition and you know, he's a local expert on Heggstad as a particular. And it was just like, how do you do that? But it is like a magic wand, but it can also save a lot of money and heartache and problems as well. Though, I'm in LA County, the hearing date for your Heggstad petition is going to be 6 months from the date of filing. So, it's still it's a magic wand with a few still delays at least here in Los Angeles. I'm I'm not sure where it is everywhere else, but it's a it's a bit of a

23:00 Yeah, I mean, I know LA County is is terrible. Orange County is supposed to be also quite bad in terms of timing. Yeah. my home-based county, Contra Costa County, we are setting petitions in March, early March right now. So, that's not great.

23:18 [snorts] Yeah. Not great. Not Yeah, it's better, not great. So, Ooh, I wanted to ask the next Oh, so let's talk about probate in general. So, the reason I started off on special needs, which is an area you specialize in, is not you also do general probate work. Is I really have the belief, and I find that when attorneys or real estate agents specialize in something, that they're really good the thing they specialize in, and it makes them better at the more routine. And so, I feel comfortable recommending somebody who's a specialist who does special needs on a regular probate, if it's not special needs, because you have to operate at a higher level to make the niche work. It's kind of like the general concept. So, talk a little bit about what does your non-special needs probate business look like, and how is that different for you from a business point of view?

24:07 So, I actually like probate a lot. Again, part of it is because in Bay Area real estate values are high, the probate fees are high, and so that's a good business for me to be in. There are pure estate planners who hate the thought of probate because it requires a handful of court appearances, and it requires court filings, and they're just aren't comfortable working [snorts] with that. But, as a reformed litigator, as I like to call myself, court is not something that bothers me at all. And so, there are lawyers who are estate planning attorneys who regularly will refer potential probate cases to me. real estate agents are another big source of probates because they're out there on the street, so to speak, finding people in who have that need. And, a growing area for me is the private professional fiduciary who has a family they're working with who needs a probate. so

25:23 That's an interesting piece cuz I increasingly I'm working with private fiduciaries, licensed here in California, not licensed in other states, in that I find first off, I like working with them much better than a family member cuz you're dealing with a professional versus somebody who everything is brand new to them and it seems like things get handled better.

25:45 [snorts] and yet there's both not enough private fiduciaries for the market, at least from where I sit. The ones who are in are older and it's aging out. I don't see young people coming into that business. I think it's a great business. And I don't see families hesitant to use that role thinking the attorney does all that. And really those are two different roles. So, talk a little bit about where does the fiduciaries role in the administration of a probate end and the yours as the attorney begins and how do you make sure that the distinction is clear to your client? Well, the way I would describe it is that, when I'm dealing with a family member as the executor or administrator of an estate, there is a lot more hand-holding. There's a lot more follow-up. they can be confused or overwhelmed by the process much more easily. Whereas with a private professional fiduciary, because they are professional, they can sort of take more of a laboring oar in terms of organizing for example inventory and appraisals and other steps along the process. You know, in terms of selling the real estate, I feel a lot more comfortable with a professional fiduciary engaging with a real estate professional.

27:11 I'm not to, you know, it's like anything else. When I have properties in probate, sometimes the family members will say, "Oh, but I know this real estate agent."

27:23 Right. But you know, if they don't do probate regularly, you know, I just don't feel confident. For example, I'm getting a notification that they're in contract and they want to close in 10 days. It's like, "Well, I have to send out a notice of proposed action. I need 15 days for that." You know, whereas an experienced realtor like yourself, you know, you're going to keep me ahead of that curve. You're not going to let me get behind that.

27:55 Right. Well, I tell I tell agents the reason to do that is you're hoping to show off that you're good at what you do, not by marketing, but by doing your job well that the attorney has other business to refer to you. And so, you know, it we have an incentive to communicate and share and step in and help out. I think the cause of problem that you're referring to, I find the podcast where I interview agents all the time and I have agents that call me for coaching, 90% have never even read the basic addendum. We have a In California, we have both a purchase addendum and we have a separate listing addendum. We both have the same advisory form. I find I have some realtors who have never even read the form. Every question they ask me, 90% of the time is in the is in the form.

28:41 Right. And I can't be a smart alec about it. I you know, my job is to make them want to sell my houses as a listing agent, but the reality is they'll list property and have no idea what to do.

28:52 Right. It And the other area, you know, for example, this happened last month. the title company reaches out because there's a lis pendens they found recorded that was never removed from a property. And I never got a copy of the preliminary title report from the agent. Just no communication. You know, I would have seen that 2 months earlier. Instead, you know, we're trying to scramble to get that removed at the last minute with the next party, and it's a lot of extra hoops to jump through.

29:32 If you're watching, the time to get the prelim is right when you list the property, or if you're filing a probate, when you're filing the probate. If you're going to sell property, you made the decision, you might as well start up front. You know, it doesn't cost anything if you have the right connections. When you list a property, at that point for sure, before you're into contract, why would you not? And it's And I'll just a quick public service I use quite a bit, Lawyers Title. They actually now do AI on the prelim, which will make a list of things to pay attention to. Where, you know, I can even read their summary before I even read the report, which is nice. I can do it myself, too.

30:09 Right. part of their package. So, there's just no ex- There's no excuse to be in contract with a lien that's on the prelim from the beginning. There's just no such excuse.

30:17 Right. And again, all I had to do was share that with me. I mean, you know, they're just so hard to communicate with sometimes.

30:26 So, let me push a little bit on that, though, in that part of the reason why default many agents are scared to share with you is customers say to us, "Oh, he bills me for everything." Now, that's not you. Maybe that was with another attorney or another matter. Or maybe it is with you. And so, one of my concerns is well, I'm sending you something, am I creating a bill for my client that my clients can be upset at me about? And so, sometimes the answer is to wait till you're told to send something. I feel like well, I'll send the attorney everything via email and they'll sort out what they're supposed to do. That's their job. Where's the right balance there though is in terms of bringing you into the process and then it's not just you work with other attorneys also that you know are not as professional maybe or the same standards. So, how do you kind of, you know, also bridge that gap or find that balance?

31:19 So, in probate, the fees are statutory. So, and they're approved by the court. So, if you want more than the basic statutory fee, you've got to prove that you did something extraordinary. And admittedly, removing a lien with a court filing and ex parte filing, that is extra work. That is not a normal probate. There will be an additional fee for that service, but you can't you can't sell the house without it.

31:50 Right. And so, you know, that is just a necessary part of the process. But it's not like an hourly billing phone call, you know, charging 0.2 every time you look around. That's not how probate works. it could be that way in a in a trust filing where you're doing it on an hourly basis. In my practice, I typically handle a lot of those things on a flat fee basis because I've been doing a long time. I know what's fair, reasonable, and how long it's going to take me to do something.

32:30 Right. If I can't do it in that period of time that I feel is reasonable, it's probably because of me. I forgot to check a box. I you know, there's something that's come up. It's not the client's fault that it's taking longer than it should in 90% of the cases. whereas other attorneys, like to your point, yeah, they are on the clock from the minute they get up in the morning to the minute they put their head down. and some of them bill in their sleep miraculously, as we know.

32:59 [laughter] Well, and again, I think the key is communication. I always find if I if I reach out to the attorney in the beginning and explain who I am and what my goals are and ask them what how they want me to communicate with them, that solves a lot of it. but I can just tell you I know I know as a real estate agent, there are always this hesitancy because occasionally don't you get the feedback that you the customer will say, "Hey, why are you starting to charge me, you know, 200 bucks to review it?" Now, it might be he should have reviewed it and found some problems. And 200 bucks is cheap for having him look at it and solve a problem. But we want to communicate that before we start so we're not adding fees without talking to our customer, I guess is the general rule.

33:42 Yeah, and in my practice with probate in particular, there is a you can ask for extraordinary fees related to the sale of real property in general. Alameda County will approve $1,500, no questions asked. however, as a practical matter, I do not ask for extraordinary fees where a real estate transaction goes smoothly and I've been asked to review preliminary title report, the contract, the disclosures. I just don't because I feel that the statutory fee is fair if not generous in California. But there are lawyers who I'm dealing with a probate right now where everything they feel that everything is an extraordinary fee. They're And the statutory fee in that probate is $45,000. And they're asking for $18,000 in extra fees. And we're going to have a we're going to have a discussion with the court at some point about that because that's unreasonable. I represent the beneficiary in that particular case.

34:57 And that's not to say I'm sure you would agree there are cases where it's reasonable or cheap in the amount of money. It depends on what the extraordinary matter is, right? It's not about just the dollar amount. It's did this really happen and is this a reasonable amount of fee for the extraordinary work being done as opposed to the ordinary work.

35:14 And in California in probate, where the ordinary fee is high on the high end, you really have to justify to the court why the ordinary fee wasn't sufficient. In other words, if the statutory fee is $45,000, and yes, you spent six or eight thousand dollars on this others these other things, you have to show the court that that $45,000 you spent $45,000 worth of time doing the regular things

35:44 Right. before you can get the extra money. And when you're overseeing a sale of a $4 million house is relatively routine, you have a $4 million estate, you already have enough fees in there. At some point, they're saying you're going to you can't be billing us twice on the same work and I think that's where the challenge is.

36:00 Right. And again, from my standpoint, I mean, you know, I want lawyers in the probate space to be operating at the highest, you know, ethical and fair standards, you know, give us all a good name. Just as I'm sure you feel the same way about the real estate agents that are involved in certain cases. And you know, it makes it easier for everybody. Makes it easier when I go in front of a judge for them to know that I am always, you know, doing things the right way. I'm always being fair to my clients first. Those are those are things that carry that carry you through when you do end up with a file that goes sideways and you need the court's help. And they'll say, "Okay, well, Aaron's a good guy." I'm I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to tilt in his direction on this one because, you know, he's asked nicely. That's the other thing about probate court in turn instead of litigation. A lot of the things you want from the court is just a matter of asking nicely.

37:09 Yeah. Yeah, people ask me I'm not I can't give legal advice, but I can tell you my experience is the judge can do just about anything they want to do. So, if you make them want to do it, they probably can do it. I mean, again, not legal advice, but and if you piss off the judge, you're probably not going to get it. Probably doesn't matter what it is.

37:28 Right. You know, and that's true outside of court, too, in life, right? You know, it's In marriage, for example, you don't want your wife mad at you. You don't want her mad at you. Just for those watching who are married, newly married, some basic advice, you don't want your wife mad at you or the judge, either one.

37:43 Right. Right. Exactly. So, you know, it is you know, I've had, especially where we're filing these ex parte requests [snorts] for emergency quick relief because there's a foreclosure pending, right? you know, because they've waited to initiate a probate, the reverse mortgage lender is upset. They've done the notice of default. Now they have notice of sale. And we need to get authority to sell that property in a hurry. And so, you know, I will especially when we used to go to court, you know, instead of on Zoom, when I drop it off with the examiner's office, I'd say, "Oh, here's the situation. I really need I really need this. Here's why I need this." And then they'll say, "Okay, I'll let the judge know." And more often not, that used to get me across the finish line on those situations.

38:44 Yeah, that's one of the areas I specialize in. I actually have a podcast on reverse mortgages cuz so many times people wait around, wait around, wait around, then file, discover they didn't get the paperwork done right cuz they're going to do it on their own. Meanwhile, the lender's moving towards foreclosure and it makes the house harder to sell if you do it legally and disclose that's in distress. Now, you get sharks swimming around the house rather than, you know, retail buyers. So, it's it's a whole problem.

39:10 Right. Right. And now, I think you said your primary county is Contra Costa County. What percentage of court time now is Zoom remote versus in person? Like in LA County, I would estimate, you know, the in-court attendance is about 20% of what was pre-COVID. There's so much that's moved to offline, you know, to online stuff. How would you evaluate Contra Costa County in terms of attendance for hearings? Is it almost all online now? Is it 80% online compared to pre-COVID?

39:42 So, we now have in all in the Bay Area counties cuz I prac- you know, the Bay Area counties aren't as spread out as Southern California, right? They're a little smaller and so I practice in the main Bay Area counties and we all have Zoom appearances for 98% of what we do. I if I need an order and I need it certified right away because there's a problem, I will show up in person to take care of it. but that's the exception.

40:16 That's so funny cuz in LA, even in person, an order is going to get scanned and this can take, you know, a week, two weeks, follow up. It's so interesting people tell me in San Bernardino like they're done in the in the clerk prints the order out and hands it to the judge to get it signed. that's not LA.

40:33 [laughter] No, that's not LA cuz I have I've handled a couple of probates. I think I have one still pending in LA. In Alameda County, their computer system is set up so that the judge signs the order electronically right there and it gets emailed to me you know, the same day.

40:53 Just like a real business. Isn't it amazing? They [laughter] actually Yeah. technology like every other business in the world has. And so then if you need it certified, you have a copy of it to take down and get certified and really helps.

41:06 How common I'm I'm I'm sure that when you file probates for clients, you always strive to have full authority cuz it's going to be cheaper and easier in the long run. Some cases require limited authority. Maybe there's objectors or there's the maybe the There's really no reason why you shouldn't, but it happens. What percentage of your cases do end up with property being sold needs court confirmation? Is that a rarity for your business or it maybe an a rare outlier problem or is that something that happens more regularly?

41:37 It is an outlier problem because we typically try to get waivers of bond. You know, in our perfect probate, there's only maybe two heirs, three heirs tops, and so it's easy to get waivers from the beneficiaries, siblings typically. I have where you have a more fractured family tree probate, then it gets more complicated. And so I recently had a beneficiary object to a probate sale notice because she feels that the house is worth double what the offer was. It's not. she's in another state. She's in Georgia. I don't know why she thinks everything in California has got to be a million-dollar house, right? So, we're going to have to go through the process and I explained to her, I said, "Well, now we have limited the pool of buyers. Now, we're going to get investors because most residential buyers cannot have a loan approval that's going to last through publication and court hearing date.

42:55 And a rate lock, right? The any buyer there is at risk of interest rates and the time you know, from the publication, maybe they could lock in the rate for 45 days, they're going to pay a premium for the extra time period if it close in time. If you get the or in your case, you get the orders quickly in LA, it might take us 2 weeks to get the order. And so, they're locked and their locks expiring and I would say, "Well, tell it to the judge." Like, I can't make the judge sign the order. I'd love to, but I don't get to do that, right? It's not my

43:25 Yeah, it's it's really rough and then you know, typically there's it's a family, right? There's there's a you got a kid and they want to move because they've sold their house.

43:35 Correct. And it just is not they could get overbid. Right. That too. That's the other problem, right?

43:44 They have 10% down payment stuck in escrow for maybe 45 days if everything goes well. And then they get overbid, they get the money back less they pay for appraisal, they pay for inspections. That That And I'm a listing agent, so for me I you know, I feel bad for the family, but it's not my client. Heartbroken when that happens to the to the buyer and yet it means we got more money for the state. That's my job. the end of the day, that's what I'm supposed to do if I can.

44:11 Right, but you know, in terms of offers, I mean, when there is when it's subject to court approval, I just don't think you're going to get the pool of buyers to really push for a really

44:26 Correct. high sale. Well, I would The only thing I disagree with you is I do think there are buyers who don't understand the risk that they're taking on and they mistakenly get into it. And I've literally had buyers show up and I met them at the corner of the bed who didn't understand that they had committed and all contingencies were waived cuz there was something here in LA now we have tenant you know, squatters we can't get rid of them and we'll sell the property with a squatter. And I had a buyer say to me, "Well, you aren't going to sell the property vacant." I said, "No, we gave you disclosures. I announced in court, you know, you signed contingencies. You're either going to close or we're taking your money. There's no other alternative here." I mean, don't mean to be blunt about it, but you know, what sorry, not sorry. So, they I would The only thing I would disagree with you is the market is so tough so competitive for listings, there are buyers who bid and they don't know what they're getting into and that maybe they close, maybe they don't. That's a whole 'nother pack of problems if they don't close on time, so.

45:25 Well, and again, it depends on the neighborhood, depends on a lot of different factors. Yes. But, you know, I just I've only handled literally close to 20 years like four or five non- court-approved real estate sales.

45:45 Got it. That's kind of like my specialty. I kind of on the buyer side I bring investors in on those deals, so I kind of work that quite a bit. Well, look, you know, I was saying I've kept a little bit over time here and at 3:00 you're billing me. I can't go any further. Just kidding. Really appreciate your time today. I had heard you previously with our good friend Sam Price. I really appreciate you educating us primarily on the beginning on special needs but it's just in general probate. For someone who wants to get a hold of you, we have here your webpage at feldmanlawgroup.com and if you click on the about screen you get this picture of this handsome guy with all his contact information and background and then down below we have your contact info. Aaron, thank you so much for taking time to educate us today and share us about your practice and I really appreciate it.

46:28 Well, listen, thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure talking to you today. Fantastic everybody. And then for everybody else on this call, this is Probate Weekly we get to we get together with a new episode every week with leading professionals in probate attorneys, fiduciaries, vendors to help us be more successful in our practice whether we're a real estate agent or an attorney or related vendor. If I can help in any way, please reach out at probateguy on social media. As always, make today your best day.