Real Estate Law Practice and Avoiding Litigation, with Attorney Michael Abramson

0:03 One of the key attorneys that really helped me build my business in probate real estate here in Los Angeles is not a probate attorney, but is a civil attorney, does real estate transactions, contracts, works with businesses. And I had the good fortune before even knowing him as an attorney to know him as a friend and before that really as a teacher. Well, I'm excited to introduce Michael Abramson, good friend of mine and several of my clients. Michael, thank you for joining us today on Probate Weekly.

0:27 Thank you, Bill. It's a pleasure and an honor. Now, you're not a probate [clears throat] attorney, yet I do know that probate's been an important part of your practice in that either your clients have a business where there's interest in the when the other parties pass, or your client passes and the estate is handled in probate. Talk about that intersection and how you kind of manage that transition from the civil commercial litigation to bring in many cases probate attorneys or handle it yourself.

0:54 [laughter] Excuse me. Well, yes, there is an intersection when the estate has real property assets. And when real property assets are involved, there's inevitably questions, insurance coverage for accidents, contract enforcement, lease enforcement more specifically what we call unlawful detainers, transactional issues where a property is being sold, and there may be a contract dispute that arises. It's It's typical things that arise in the life of a real estate transaction of real estate attorneys. But, the intersection is that you oftentimes need the approval of the probate court for a certain action, or it may be the dispute concerning the real estate could be heard before the probate. So, I am currently working with a large estate that does real estate management operation with third parties and owns its own parcels of real estate mainly in the downtown LA area. So, we've gone through the probate courts on that when we have problems arising. But, generally the real estate aspects will stay the same. It'll just be the probate procedure which would be different and that would depend on whether approval is necessary or whether dispute as I said is before the probate court.

2:23 Well, I worked with you in those In fact, in that particular case, while you obviously have a familiarity with probate court, I've seen you in probate court in various matters. It seems to me you don't handle the actual filings typically or the litigation when there's conflicts on that. So, what are your kind of criteria for where you can raise your hand and say, "I need to get a attorney who really specializes in this to handle these pieces to best serve your client?"

2:48 Yeah, I think, you know, a good analogy for your audience might be, you know, if they have to go to an internist, they have a problem and the internist says, "Well, you have an ear note ear, nose, and throat issue a respiratory issue. So, I'm going to send you to the respiratory specialist." It's you have to have an attorney who has the boundaries and the knowledge and the discretion and I might say integrity to say, "You know, listen, we need a probate specialist who is adept and knowledgeable in probate procedure because the rules in probate are slightly different than they are in regular superior court civil matters. Sometimes they're very different. So, you need someone who knows probate procedure to shepherd those things through. And oftentimes it goes the other way that the probate attorney will have a question in a business contract context or a real estate question and they'll come to me and ask what that is. So, you got to know where specialty, where your strengths are, and have the humility to know when to refer to somebody else and say, "I don't know." And you don't want You don't want your clients to pay for learning. It's fine if the if the if the attorney wants to learn on his own and take seminars, but you know, I've seen billings, I've supervised other attorneys over the years, I've seen people they learn on the client's account. That's not the best way to employ an attorney.

4:19 And being involved with couple of these cases with you, the [clears throat] other thing I noticed is that there is a need for, and in the case of working with you, good camaraderie, teamwork, assignment of delegation of work, and yet reporting amongst the group of what's going on. You're not all watching over each other's shoulders, but all kind of paying attention. So, how does that happen? Who quarterbacks that, or what are the rules, or how's that process happen? Are you working with the same people over and over again, and it's kind of developed over time?

4:50 That's a great question as well. I'll just start from the personal level. Character is fundamental. All the issues you just mentioned there are character issues, character issues. Is the person, you know, kn- knowing their own limits? You've been in meetings when people speak up and they try and monopolize the floor, and then the proportion is opposite. The more they speak, the less they know, so they want to dominate. So, you have to have the ability to work with people, obviously. And you know, there are plenty of people who have good Let's call it professional skills, but they don't have as developed personality character skills. So, I mean, when I work with people, I've employed lots of attorneys for other purposes and employed specialists when I need to. You look for character. Those are very important things. And obviously, you know, you can't learn that in an hour. You can interview with someone they have their best face on, but as you have the meetings, you sort of see what their character is, you know, and how they work with other people. It's very basic, but humility is a key characteristic. To know what you don't know, let other people answer your questions for you even if you think you know.

6:12 You know, these are these are the basics. So, how do you judge that? You know, I put when I'm working, I have a three C's I call it. Character, commitment, and competence.

6:26 Mhm. What is their character? What is their commitment to the job? To serving others, to helping others. And then, finally, what is their professional service level. I think the first two are the most important.

6:41 You know, one of the things I've I've done now over 500 interviews of attorneys to my podcast, and one common threads that I see amongst the most successful attorneys, whether you measure by billings or size of firm or you know, reputation in the industry, the best consistently have both great technical skills. They're great attorneys in some mostly most commonly narrow niches of the law that they only practice in, and a blend of that with great soft skills, interpersonal skills, communication skills, listening to your word humil- humility. It amazes me how the best attorneys are the most humble, and the worst attorneys have the least humility. And I think, why are you so arrogant? I just got the phone with the other attorney who's so much better than you. What do you have to be arrogant about? So, I guess this is just the challenge of our times is trying to you know, working. Yet, I know that you're stuck sometimes working with the other counsel that is lacking one or the other. As a real estate agent, you know, we're often stuck working with attorneys who may or may not be proficient in probate. So, what are some tips you give new attorneys or real estate agents when you're dealing with another attorney who may not have both of the three C's you talk about, and the soft skills, the character, and the competence, and as well as you know, the knowledge, the technical skills.

8:04 Well, that again, that's a super good question and we can talk for a long time about that. What do I do in those circumstances? You have to realize that [clears throat] many people, although they're living you know, okay [snorts] lives, that underneath they're they're really crazy. And how to unwind someone's craziness to see how to deal with that is is a challenge that is psychological and I'll tell you honestly, sometimes I spend as much time thinking about that, how to unwind these schemes that people make as I do researching what the law is.

8:43 Yeah. Often times, this is a terrible thing. You have, especially with artificial intelligence now, you have people that present very competent sounding arguments, but underneath if you investigate them, they're totally unsupported.

8:57 Right. Even before AI, I would check some cases. They would cite cases that did not stand for the proposition they were arguing. It's a totally inappropriate cite. It was related to it. Generally, you know, they said, "Well, you can assert as many affirmative defenses as you want." Of course, but what I'm asking is every question, "What are your affirmative defenses?" You have to answer that. Which is yesterday's argument. There was 15 affirmative defenses. An affirmative defense, as the attorneys will know, is is a positive statement of something against your complaint, why it shouldn't be why the relief you're seeking should not be granted. So, they have an affirmative defense, well, the statute of limitations is up or you're you waived your rights or your comparative fault, something like this. So, I'm asking, what are the facts behind each of your affirmative defenses? The answer comes back, well, we're allowed to assert as many affirmative defenses as we want. And they cite a case. That's not an appropriate answer. It's somewhat on the point, but it's it's misleading. So, you got to unwind that, get what they get down to the honest truth, and then focus on that and pursue that.

10:16 It seems to about the rest of society that people have lost the skill of argumentation. I don't mean arguing with somebody, but argumentation in terms of learning the procedures techno technology behind an argument, you know, what proofs are, what types of what types of attacks are. And I see it even attorneys sometimes that you know, I don't know if it's a function of, you know, they live in society and their legal minds get softened over time if they don't keep sharp, but it's such a challenge sometimes that people we just repeat the same argument louder versus like you say, give the underpinning logic and proof of the argument, which oftentimes one good defense properly documented is more effective than 15 that are that are just AI generated or just listed as like a listical.

11:01 Yeah. By the way, there's there's a couple hundred cases that have developed, probably two, 300 cases over the last 3 years, roughly, for sanctions. The court issued a fine for people who cited cases improperly. They just

11:17 Yeah. pull it off the But, you know, one of my one of my teachers told me, life is a battle for sanity.

11:26 Mhm. And you I had the same teacher. I know what you're talking about. [laughter] You see more and more insanity. I'll tell you where it comes out. You got to watch this very carefully. Many attacks are what we used to call in the high school debate team, ad hominem attacks. They're attacks on the person. You don't know what you're talking about. Said in a fancier way. You don't have the qualifications to say. That's not an argument on the merits.

11:50 Correct. That That's a deflection. And I expect that in the media. You know, the media is just full of ad hominem attacks. But, when you're in the law, you have to focus on the facts and the law. Now, I hate to say this, but I've seen a deterioration in the law profession on this. Not everybody, but like you're saying, and there's unfortunately a reflection of that on the bench as well.

12:19 Mhm. I find some judges have not I'm not going to say any names have not analyzed things the way they should. Sometimes they slap off an opinion. That's also a function. I'm not going to blame it solely on them. The courts are underfunded, understaffed. the wait times are very great. And the judges, some of them are doing the best they can, you know, and they don't have time to think through some of these cases that they should. So, they

12:47 Right. they give us a quick minute order. You know, they think it's a routine, but it doesn't it doesn't have the hallmarks of a routine case. Well, that's where oral argument comes in if you get the chance. Sometimes courts I've noticed recently in some motions, they don't take oral argument.

13:04 Right, especially in LA. Ex partes are important on that. I see most courts ex parte those motions which are without notice. They're just like so-called emergencies, and you got to hear this immediately. And it used to be all the courts had had argument. And sometimes you know, you can't get across the feeling of the case in just the papers. Now, most if not all the courts, they change the rule. If they won't want to make a decision in chambers, they will say, you know, no argument. If it's a real interesting type of situation, maybe they'll come out and say, well, I'd like to hear a little bit more about this. Most of them don't take argument. That's a mistake as well. That's a function of overworked judges, not judges necessarily that are being slapdash about their procedures.

13:51 And I think the more the judges That's why that even in your title, that's why if all possible, I counsel avoid the litigation. Right. Right. Yeah. Well, you know, I think I've been in enough matters with you even with just you lately, where you can see the judges you feel like there is a downhill train and they're the brakes on trying to hold it to get through this caseload. And I think that they really appreciate brevity, they appreciate silence, they appreciate, you know, a well-reasoned presentation arguments in the short version of it. And they really get upset when people argue with them, particularly other attorneys. And watching you, I would say you're more of a I would say old-school style lawyerly mannerisms in court, which I would call that appropriate in court. And that's like out of fashion. and you see some of these younger attorneys speak to attorneys and the attorneys haven't changed up I mean I'm sorry, the judges haven't changed up much. They want to be dealt with in a respectful way cuz they're trying to get through this whole caseload. And I guess I should just a caution to anybody who goes to court. If you're a realtor, you're the principal, follow the attorney's advice on how to communicate with the judge, and don't argue with the judge. Unless you're attorney, don't argue with the judge ever.

15:08 You have to be very good in your verbal skills and nonverbal skills to read what's going on. Again, most judges are pretty conscientious. Some them are overly rushed and in the probate departments I've been in with you, I've seen way over-burdened judges, and they haven't been able to have the time to consider as they should, or hear the arguments. it's not their fault necessarily. the county, although they keep raising the taxes, the county is supposed to fund those courts, and they're not funding as much as they should.

15:46 I remember there's a case, not the current client, but the one before, where you went to court, and you played something, and the other side the other side's attorney spoke, and I was watching this, and the other attorney was like arguing with the judge, and we went outside, and I think we were the client, too, and I just said, "The judge doesn't like that." He was being polite and allowing him to be argued with, but inside, you just don't do that, and you need to understand how busy they are. It's just It's just one of the facts is you're going to win some, you're going to lose some, but you're going to for sure lose if you argue with the judge, I think.

16:18 That was speaking property approval of a sale, and we got that approval Yeah. of the sale, and those arguments were counterproductive on the part of the other, attorney's part, so

16:31 Yeah, I remember that. a little bit embarrassed for him. Yeah, for sure. One of the things that I see a greater need for, and you and I have worked on together, is bringing in another piece to the puzzle, which would be a professional fiduciary. It I know that, you had a case which, yeah, for sure cried out for one, but I think there's more often needs for these positions, because the matters are not legal necessarily that the attorney wants to handle, but somebody has to do it. They're administratively challenging, managerial-wise challenging, or maybe even require expertise in real estate. So, talk a bit about the role of professional fiduciary, and how you use it effectively for clients when appropriate.

17:14 I cannot speak highly enough about a qualified, experienced, competent fiduciary who has integrity. He is I use all those adjectives very advisedly. A person with good experience is going to be a good business manager. And most of the most of the operations of an estate are going to be business matters. And the fiduciary has to know when to call in the broker to get a an appraisal or to get a value judgment on something or the market judgment. And he has to know when to call in the attorney. so, that calls for a seasoned fiduciary. And I know a few of them, but the ones that are full of integrity and experience and good judgment are rare.

18:06 Yes. So, again, it comes down to character. The three C's as I call it. Character, commitment, and commitment means commitment to the client, not just commitment to the billings, and the competence.

18:23 Yeah. Yeah, the good fiduciaries, for the most part, save for one who's a good friend of mine who's a favorite, will always come on my podcast. It's the only industry where I can't get them to come on the podcast easily because the good ones have so much business. And I and I do talk to young people who have maybe accounting backgrounds or young attorneys. I think it's a great career to consider. Now, there's a lot of administrative work and there's a lot of details. It has to be the right person, but to me it seems like a great career path where we need more and more of these people. There's just not enough, and the ones who are in it are older are kind of aging out.

19:01 I hope lots of people are listening to that excellent advice because a [snorts] good fiduciary can bill very nicely if they have those experiences in the business and real estate, whether they have a master's degree in business or an accounting degree or something like this, those skills are going to be in demand, and it is a it is less known. It's not pitched by too many people.

19:29 Correct. It's not known by too many people unless you dealt in the courts with trusts and estates. You've seen the fiduciaries appointed and you and you see how they work. you don't know about that. So, I hope lots of people are listening to that. It's excellent advice, and I think for people who want to make that effort and have the educational background to start off, they could really make a handsome living and do something that really helps people quite a bit because usually this is the We didn't touch on this point yet, but usually when it's an estate and often times with the trust as well, you have a lot of emotional issues going on. There's either a sudden death that happened or an ailing person who needs a trustee, and it's usually beneficiaries who are involved there. So, you're back to your same issues of knowing how to balance the legal issue and personal issues and being full of commitment and integrity to make the right judgments, know when to consult and when to how to make good decisions cuz you're really making decisions for other people, and you're you're complete fiduciaries is you know, you have a the highest degree of care to put your own interests aside and look what is best for the estate, what is best for the beneficiaries, and to make those judgments. So, those are really important skills.

20:56 One of the things that you and I've been involved with, I think a couple times, are huge legal disputes that had the decedent. In this case, probate cases, and trust litigation, had the decedent had even the simplest, most basic estate plan with a basic trust, would have saved so much trouble, heartache, money, conflict. And I know you bring it up, and I'll never forget, we had a client who it was a probate litigation, and as a result he got, you know, awarded or is getting awarded the heirship for some property. And I'd asked you, and he said, "Well, I talked to him about it, and he didn't get it." And I said myself, "I'll talk him into it. I'm a salesman. I believe in estate plan." I remember speaking to him, and he just didn't want to jump on it for whatever reasons.

21:41 Yeah. why is it so hard? I don't get it. I don't get especially when you've been through probate court, and you've seen the pain and the difficulty and the theoretically the attorney's fees. Not that we don't like to see you get paid a lot of money, but I'm sure even you would rather administer a trust than go through probate court with all the conflict.

21:59 Yeah, A, you want to avoid court as much as possible because of the costs and the delays and everything else. I mean, even if there were more judges and the hearings went quicker, it's still a lot of expense. So, the concept here, another fundamental business concept, is wisdom. What is wisdom? Wisdom is the ability to appreciate the consequences. Mhm. Think it through. And the bigger the bigger the issue, the bigger the money, the more at stake, the better you have to consider the consequences. Now, what's the rub? When people go into an investment, they do spend the time, you know, they make a cash flow analysis, etc. But, when you're facing mortality, Mhm.

22:46 It's a much harder decision to make go to that probate planner, and say, "This is what's going to happen when the person passes away." That's a hard psychological hurdle to go over. So, I think that's one of the reasons I we know people who started the plan and they never finished it cuz they didn't want to they didn't want to make that final commitment and the consequences of that type of laissez-faire, leaving it alone, can be very expensive.

23:20 Hundreds of thousands of dollars if not more in that case. I mean, I wonder how much it would have been difference in and the heartache and the stress and the difficulty

23:29 Taxes the way it would have been more taxes and insane. Unbelievable difference and yet it's it's so hard to get people to take that action. it's just I you know, what I

23:43 Anything. I'm I'm hoping that a lot of people are listening to this because you're getting some real key advice here. You know, face it. Be honest. There's personal integrity. What I want for my children, what I want for my family or the person doesn't have children, what I want for my charities that I want to give to. If you take a city a state of any size, keep the money, control the best you can, plan wisely, look at the consequences.

24:15 One of the I think obvious pillars foundations of your business is your personal faith. I don't I think it's something you be comfortable talking about is the role of that in your business. Often times people feel like they have to separate the two and you know, I often have people say to me, well, that's cuz you have a lot of faith. And I do. I mean, I mean, it's not a game for me and I work hard to meet my responsibilities as a family member, as a community member, as a person in the world and make the world a better place. Talk a bit if you if you're okay and I know like me you go through life with a symbol on your head. People know you're Jewish almost wherever you go in court. I remember I went to court one time and debating should I wear a kippah should I not wear a kippah. I did. The case didn't work out but that's another story. But to have the courage to do that and to go forth and hold yourself to that standard. Talk a bit about the decision you made in your life to put that forward and then how that affects your day-to-day operation.

25:16 Well, another big question. you mentioned the yarmulke. If you live with that idea alone, I think it's very helpful. It's hard to live with that idea alone. What is the idea? It means there's something always above you. You're not in charge. It goes back to humility as well. Number one. Number two, he's the boss with a capital B. How would the boss evaluate your work? Now, let's say I'm billing. Let's say I'm drafting a pleading. All those things. If I'm billing, I got to bill honestly. Be fair to myself, be fair to the client. If I'm writing a brief, I have to be fair to the court as well. I can't, you know, try and sandbag the court with AI-generated false cases. You know, so if you keep this concept that there's someone above you, there's a force and a power and a and a creator and a supervisor above you and if you can bear that in mind all the time, you're you're always under supervision. Now, that that is both a positive and it could be oppressive, too, if you if you take it in the wrong way. But ultimately, accountability is very important for all of us, for the fiduciary, for a broker, for an attorney, for an accountant. We have to be accountable and whether we're conscious of it or not, we are ultimately going to be accountable.

26:45 Right. So, remember that and that that's the purpose why I wear that yarmulke. From a personal line, I remember when I first this is like 40 years ago I had a little sports car at the time before I was married and I said I'm going to have to drive more carefully and I can't cut in and out because if I cut in too quickly he'll say oh the guy is wearing the a [laughter] kippah he's not a polite driver so immediately if you if you get that consciousness it's going to make you I hope for me and I hope for anybody else it's going to make you a better more aware person aware of your personal qualities aware of your personal accountability to your to yourself and to your fellow members of society wherever they may be and accountable to your creator.

27:31 I think also you know it gives you a sense I speak for myself and I think the same with you I've observed that the businesses we're in we don't control all the cards right you don't get to decide what the judge decides you get to do your best part to present your case as best you can but judges make mistakes judges have bad days judges whatever happen or the court courts closed you know something happens the court there's a there's a protest the court's closed you're delayed for 30 days right and you got to call the customer and tell him and maybe it's going to cost him a lot of money to refile and delay and we don't control these things and yet at the end of the day if we you can't control it then we can only do what we can do and I think a sense of faith helps us through those difficult times where a lack of faith I think I mean I didn't have it when I was younger you know it's very stressful very hard it's stressful enough going through life with some faith so talk a little bit about the role of faith and how that pulls you through cuz you're in a business where people's decisions they're going to make or lose 100,000 500,000 dollars I've been a case where they're multi-million dollar decisions being made.

28:34 Sure well there's there's again so much to talk about there and let down a few stories or few examples I guess it's a good model you know when you're standing in front of a court and you're making your best arguments, and you're making your most honest arguments, and you're hopefully on the moral right side, you're on the moral high ground, then it's up to the judge to make the right decision. None of us really like to be judged. It's very hard to be judged. but ultimately, we all are judged. Not necessarily by our fellows, you know, in court, yes, they make a judgment, but ultimately, your life is going to be judged by your creator. So, that's one thing that you can use as a model. When you're standing in the court, what's it like to be judged? That's number one.

29:22 Ouch. Let's not talk about that. I mean, edit that part out. [laughter] Number two, number two, that is a joy, because that means someone cares. Your actions matter. Everything you do has a consequence. What you Everything you do, your speech, the way you dress, the way you eat, the way you interact with your fellows, it all is of consequence. It's very consequential. So, that means each day when you wake up, you have a very meaningful life. You're going to build your character, you're going to build relationships with other people, and you're going to build your relationship with the creator of the of the universe. So, that that's a very meaningful and inspiring way to live, I think. and the laws of the Torah, you know, we could you can talk about this for hours, but a good section of the Torah laws deal with business.

30:19 Yeah. People are surprised to see that. Yeah. Because so many of our interactions on all levels have to deal with money.

30:27 Right. And that not only means money in the terms of your of your commercial transactions, it means your values in terms of reputation. Reputational damages are a big subject in the Torah.

30:42 Yeah. so we have to be very careful about what we say, what we hear, and how we relate to other people. So, all these things are great indicators every day of how careful a person should be. That's why it comes back to character again. And they're all they all should be an assist to coach the person to be becoming more refined, more insightful, more compassionate, and more attuned. In our profession, ultimately more attuned to what the right result is, what justice is, what the economics of the of the case are, and how we best serve the clients to achieve those goals.

31:31 Now, you have a little more difficult area in that area in that you're dealing with, by definition, many times confrontations, right? I know if for the company I work with, the client we work with together, you do unlawful detainer. So, you're you're literally throwing a business who's a deadbeat, typically, out of their business. They blame you for forcing them out, and then you try to recapture expenses to our client, which is your job, and they blame you because you're trying to get money out of them that you whatever, and your trans fees are too much. So, it seems like the nature of your work is confrontational, and yet I do know you try doing it in a compassionate way. We do try to avoid, at least the client I work with you on the management side, we try to avoid conflict, try to avoid putting in a position, but sometimes there's no way around it. It's going to be confrontational. So, how do you keep yourself in line with those values when you're being accused of things that aren't true, or they're yelling at you're a bad guy?

32:23 You know, I was born on October 27th. That's the That's the birthday of Teddy Roosevelt, the first Roosevelt.

32:32 Oh, wow. He said, "Speak softly and carry a big stick." And then hand, you have the olive branch, right? You want to make peace, you want to settle. On the other hand, if they don't cooperate, you got to club them.

32:45 Yeah. Now, that's diplomacy and military. You know, it's it's the same thing in unlawful detainers as it is on the diplomatic front. If you can settle it by talking, great. Get an agreement, and sometimes that works. We get a stipulation, let you stay another month, pay the balance over, you know, the next 18 months, whatever it is. Sometimes they just are totally flaked, and you got to sue them and get a judgment.

33:11 Yeah. So, it sounds like you just do the best you can. And then sometimes they run away from that, too. So, you got to I got to tell you know, I'm I'm in practice for many years now. When I first started practicing, I was shocked at how dishonest people were acting.

33:27 It's amazing. And [laughter] I had to that took me a couple of years to say, "Oh, maybe this is just the exception." But, time after time, and unfortunately, you become a little hardened to that, and you got you then you learn to make a judgment. This person the olive branch ain't going to work. This person needs to club them.

33:45 You know, I grew up My father was an attorney. Some of practice here in Summer Gardens in a community in El Segundo and Whittier. And a lot of business was related to that, and people always treated me honestly. Once I Once he passed, once I moved out of the area, I was on my own, people dishonest with me cuz they weren't worried about an attorney holding me accountable. So, I like to think you probably avoid some of that in your own business, but you have to deal with the customers, you know, your clients' problems, and that's where you step in. Look, Michael, I've got a little bit of overtime that we lot allotted here. I really appreciate Obviously, our relationship goes way back. You know, fun fact, Michael's daughter was my daughter's first babysitter. And to this day, I can't believe she's not 12 or 13 years old when I see her driving around the neighborhood or pushing when she visits Michael with her kids. I don't have I don't Best wishes to Tova. She's still a hall of fame babysitter in our hearts. But you've been a great fan, great teacher over time, a great business associate, a great client for me. I really appreciate your support in the I mean we've had two different occasions where you asked me a question about probate and I had the chance to maybe help you solve a problem that turned into great business for me and I always appreciate that you give me a chance to at least am I competent? I'll say yes, if I'm not I'll say no and from there we both I think done some good work together. So I really appreciate you as a businessman as well.

35:00 Well, likewise to you except double. Oh, thank you so much. If you want to get in touch with Michael Abramson, he's a great attorney, civil, real estate transactions, corporate as well. he's located in Los Angeles, phone number [phone number shown on screen]. information down below. If you're driving, can't see that, reach out to me. Michael again, thank you so much for being on. I really appreciate you so much.

35:21 Thank you, Bill. Continued success in everything you do. Thank you. And for the rest of you, this is Probate Weekly. We get together every week usually with a probate attorney. In this case, this is an attorney I've done several probates with. He's very active in that field, yet kind of comes at it from the angle of civil and real estate. If I can help in any way, please reach out at Bill Gross Probate. As always, you make today your best day ever. Thanks so much.