Probate Title Talk, with Kevin Kelly of Orange Coast Title

0:01 You have been in real estate for decades and one of the least appreciated pieces has always been title company. However, for somebody who gets involved in probate particularly, the definition of probate is really changing the title from somebody died to somebody who's not dead in order to transact the property. If ever there's a time that you need to work with a great title company and great title representative, it's during probate and related litigation and trust administration. So, I'm excited to have today one of the leading title reps I met him. He leads a team down in the Long Beach area primarily. Kevin Kelly of the Kelly team. Kevin, thank you so much for joining us today. Hey, thanks for having me, Bill. This is cool. I like these types of things cuz it's interesting. Probate has a lot of preconceived notions on the general public side. So, it's not as complicated when you do it every day. Well, I think also it's not as complicated when you have a Rolodex of vendors and team members and people you work with that can do their part effectively. Exactly.

1:04 Truth is often times my job is checking mistakes from other parties and catching them or getting my title company representative to catch them and help us correct those things. So, let's start off with that. So, you're a title representative and you know, you I would call you kind of a full service title representative. You work with I knew you coming into our office meetings and servicing. We had maybe 100 agents and being available to help from the brand new agent to the top producers. But, probate obviously is a special piece. So, let's talk a little bit for a brand new agent who stumbles on a probate deal, what's different about that transaction potentially than a standard transaction? First of all, you're going to have more people involved. You're going to have attorneys, executors. I going to be more of a point person than I would in a traditional sale. So, Is that good news or bad news? Just kidding. Right. That you're involved. That's good news.

1:54 Additionally, you must get a prelim opened and we got to know what we're dealing with. So, I have I've done this a long time, like 37 years. This is my only grown-up job. So, I guess this is you know, this is my career, right?

2:11 I Kevin, are you grown-up? I'm just curious. Hey, it's you know, it's a toss-up question. Depends on who you ask. But bottom line, so we can't make mistakes when we're in court. You get one shot, right? To for that court appearance. Yeah. So, we have a more extensive search situation than traditionally, right? So, we send it out for search and exam. That takes 24 hours. Then, we put it to an advisory title officer who then does a curative report.

2:42 Just like we used to do in the REO days where you'd get the prelim, but you'd also get a little sheet that said, you got to deal with this, and this, right? We're doing the exact same thing for probates so that the attorney isn't the only one who can who can interpret that prelim, right? A paralegal can do it, the general public can do it because we have a curative report that prioritizes what needs to happen and in what order. So, that makes everything easier, okay? That's just a Kevin Kelly group thing. That's not a title company industry thing. We felt this was enough of a niche and this is what I kind of specialize in. Now, I've seen the curative report and the and I appreciate it because you kind of lay out the defects and what has to be fixed. Nobody likes it. No. It's kind of like getting a blood test. Nobody likes you know, getting a blood test.

3:35 Right. Great analogy. But, if you have if you at least now you have a road map to solution. I think the thing where real estate agents drop the ball is they assume somebody else is going to cure those things. And I think in my experience, a really sharp title, I'm sorry, really sharp escrow officer will, but the average and below won't. And so, what seems to happen is that we're drawing loan documents and all of a sudden, hey, there's these liens. How come this guy has a lien from his you know, credit you know, from 10 years ago? Who's clearing that? So, let's talk about it.

4:06 This is my worst nightmare. What you just described is my worst nightmare. And they call you and it's your fault because you have no report. Always my fault. It's always your fault. But, you're right. But, the reality is there's no reason, particularly in a probate type of situation, where we haven't cleared all this stuff up at the beginning. That's our job. We never go into court unprepared. We never come down to closing unprepared. These are not This is not brain surgery. We do 200 of these a month, okay? So it really comes down to communication and transparency. Those are my two key po- points, right? Here's what we're dealing with and nobody but us is going to clear this up. So, I need this information. The escrow person and I are going to bird dog this. So, by the time you are in escrow, this stuff should already be handled. So, are you coordinating with the escrow? Are they coordinating with you? Like, who's the coordinator on this?

5:03 Or sometimes you don't have an escrow yet. So, sometimes I'm just communicating with the law firm and the attorney. In most cases, that's how we do it. The executor very rarely is a stand-alone person. But, if they are, then I'm their point person because again, without their cooperation, we can't get anything done. Without the title company insuring that the property is not going to close. And I try to tell people that the attorney can be right about the law and I've and I've had attorneys you know, cite me a an email all kinds of probate code and law and this and I'm like, that could all be correct, but the title company won't insure it, we're not selling the house. So, that's the greatest thing about my job. I am the lowest guy on the totem pole in the hierarchy, okay? But, the good news is I don't say we close, we don't close. So, it's ultimate power, right? And I like that. If you want to yell at me, you can yell at me, but the decision is still I need what I need or we're not closing. I've found 100 ways over 37 years to say everything I need to say. Right. Polite or I can be a little more aggressive if they are. But, the reality is the documentation has to be there or we don't close. So, we all got a common goal. Let's just get there, right? Now, sometimes some of these things are not black and white on the black and white on the report in the in the sense that sometimes it's like, do you need belt? Do you need suspenders? Do you need belts and suspenders? Do you need two belts? Do you need three suspenders?

6:33 My and I've had cases where one title company said no and I thought we could get it done. Done. I took it to another company and they said yes. And I realized it's insurance. It's not you know, of course if a court orders something, everybody's going to insure that. But my experience in Orange Coast is and this has been true my entire career having worked with your company that Orange Coast seems to be more aggressive in support of the real estate broker than most. Meaning, my experience with the larger title companies, I know you're underwritten by big companies, you got plenty of financial assets, but the bigger company names are more like in the industrial or commercial space and like from down on the high, they're telling me, we can't insure this. So.

7:19 That you guys get around things other people just aren't able to insure. First of all, we hate the term getting around cuz we're not getting around anything, right? We're actually clearing it up. Clear it up.

7:28 But, the but the good news is I worked at a major for 27 years and it was great until it wasn't. And the reason that it wasn't was this specific scenario that you that you just created, right? We have five underwriters at Orange Coast. So, I can run it by five companies and chances are one of them is going to say yes, right? That was the thing that was the most important to me and my group. The other majors own five or six entities. So, they can't have one of their entities say yes and the other say no. Right. They've got lawsuits going there, right? Right. So, we're a stand-alone entity and the real estate market has changed. Back in the day, we had relationships with real estate companies. I was the only person they had access to. I was the only person I'd see. That's no longer the case. So, corporate doesn't play a role in our day-to-day life anymore. And really, underwriters do. So, that's why we're where we are and that's why I like where I am. And we've been there 6 years and they've done everything they said they'd do and we closed the deal. So, that's my job, right?

8:39 So, let's hope that's kind of how that game is played. See, with me, I had a I had a case where the decedent passed. He was a commercial broker. He was deep relationships. Had a title representative that he was very close to, personal friend. Turns out that the title rep is also a personal friend of my brother-in-law who's a very big industrial broker. And we gave him the business and we opened the escrows and the titles with them and they couldn't insure them cuz they needed something that we couldn't get, but I knew we didn't really need it legally. And I went to another company and they agreed and so, we pulled it. And the rep called me on a conference call. The staff was like, well, why'd you pull them? I said, I didn't pull them. You guys declined it. Yeah, like He said, well, why do we not do it? He asked his staff and they gave him his answer and he said, well, this is not insurable. I said, well, name company is insuring it. And he goes, well, they're irresponsible. And I said, well, A, I don't care. It's their decision. They made it.

9:32 Insurance. Your insurance is They make their decisions. I'm not here to second guess their choices in life, number one. Number two, my job is to get the deal sold, not to worry about the buyer's title insurance claim maybe 10 years from now. And number three, you're wrong.

9:46 But, whatever. It's Well, and the good news, you know, title insurance claims are very like title. It's black and white, right? The bigger issues we find where the underwriters get sketchy and again it's Orange County and Southern California. We have a lot more marriages than anywhere else in the nation, okay? So, we have a lot more step kids and adopted children and divorces, right? So, anytime we have a probate case that the person's not 20 years old we probably have a lot of heirs adjacent people. So, that already makes it more complicated, okay? So, we take that out of the mix. First thing I do, I sit down with the executor and I go I want everybody on a zoom. Everybody who thinks they have an interest in this property we need on the same zoom, whatever time that is. If they're in Germany it's midnight, don't care. Then everyone at least knows the timelines, what is expected, who's going to be asking the questions, who's going to be answering the questions and there's nobody holding me up at the end, right? We've all had transparency. We all were on that same zoom. I might have looked you in the eye. So, now you know, the time is passed for you to dissect, right? So, there's just things that are a little easier to do that way.

11:07 What you're describing you may disagree, but I'm being asked your opinion as a long time top practitioner I think is really filling the gap that attorneys don't because my statistics tell me when I pull the numbers in Los Angeles County 90% of probate sales are done by attorneys who's done one or less probates in less 12 months, meaning they haven't done many. And so they don't really know what to do. They're not their strength normally is not client relations. You and I are sales people, that's what we do all day long and then we have to learn technical stuff or have staff to help us. Right. And so I feel like what you're describing is what people think the attorney is going to do. The attorneys don't do it, but they're smart enough to work with you and or me, we're going to fill in the gaps. We're like the grease in the gears to make things move cuz that zoom discussion you talked about ideally would be done by the attorney or by the executor at the attorney's direction. They just have to let me tell them to do it. And we you're 1000% right. You assessed everything perfectly. The attorney is there to handle the court related matters. They are not there to deal with interpersonal family issues. They are not there to get everyone on the same page. That's not their job. Nor do they have any interest in doing it. So, that's where I found there was a niche, right? And if I can explain this and I can be their conduit, again we do a lot of these in a in a yearly basis, so it's not foreign to me and we're used to talking to the general public. Most attorneys aren't, you know, that's what we see. Underwriters for my company, they never talk to the consumer. That's my job. So, you know, more consumer input, better service.

12:50 So, one of the best practices I feel you and I talked about this on a separate call when we talked about my business. We're not talking about my business today, but when we did I said for me it's critical that we that I will use your app to get a profile on the property. So, at least I can check and see what the latest deed was and what it says. But if we're going to follow a probate we should actually get a preliminary title report. Now, some companies don't want to do that because there is a cost. Preliminary title reports are labor intensive and Orange Coast Title has costs associated with it and they charge too much, your fees are going to go up or they're going to lay people off or whatever happens it's not good. So, as a as a customer I never want companies to burn money. I want to protect their assets, but I want to use them on things that are important. In the old days we used to get ball game tickets and lunches from title reps. I just ordered the prelims because I wanted to get my deals closed and buy my own lunches. But these days yet you obviously can't let anybody open a prelim. You need to have make sure they're trained or on point. So, what is your you know, the Kelly Team, what's your policy as far as who do order prelim for or what's the process?

13:57 Everything you just said is our policy. Oh, okay. I'm not a person that tells my clients to search their own property. We're all everyone on my group has been doing this 100 years. So, you sure, if you're at the grocery store and some woman says I need to know if I'm a joint tenant, sure, pull up their deed on the app. But as far as anything probate related, deaths, anything more complicated than who's entitled Deedy in my office who's email is right there is professional and she'll do it in 5 minutes. You'll get everything you need. You can order a prelim at the same time. I'm CC'd on everything that goes out. So, even if you're not familiar Deedy knows her stuff and then I'm there to review it when you have questions. That's the best process because the errors occur where when people who are not trained to look at the chain of title, which really outside of title people there aren't anybody. You don't go to school for that. So, then we're solid. We know I know Deedy knows and then if we have to go to the next step we're there. So, again I'm not a proponent of the big app thing, but I think it has value on verification before you walk into somebody's house. Are they really the owner? That's smart.

15:16 I love doing it myself. I'm just obsessed. Oh, no, people do and I'm not saying you shouldn't. I just general public I don't want doing that. Yeah, and I think the number one executor wouldn't be doing that. Number two, the Realtor® who's never done one before, you don't want them to do that, right?

15:29 Exactly. And the attorney who does one a deal a year could they have their paralegal download the app, install the app and then they're not going to use it for 6 months and they're going to forget their login versus just email Deedy and get it back. You got it. I tell attorneys just email me. I you know, I'll do it for you.

15:44 Yeah, you pass it on. It gets Yeah, who cares? Exactly. But at least we're in we're in the we're in the mix on that stuff. And so, that's for the app. At what point do you recommend the ordering of a preliminary title report either both for a attorney filing a probate and or for the real estate agent on the listing? The real estate agent normally is the first point of contact when the when the consumer doesn't know what's happening, right? So, we open it immediately. We don't know the who's going to be the attorney yet. But in the prelim So, like let's say I get a consumer. I refer them to a probate attorney in most cases directly unless it's come from a Realtor®, right? So, I send over those preliminary documents to whatever attorney. This person is looking to interview you. Here's the current deed. Here's what I know. Not a prelim, just preliminary documents so that they can be more educated when they have that initial talk. At that point it's going to the Realtor®. Realtor® needs to get their name on that prelim so that they get paid. So, we would like it to come from the Realtor® and then we can always send it to the to the attorney or you know, everyone knows but probate costs are not are not negotiable, right? Depending on the amount of the estate it's dictated by the state of California. So, there's not a lot of shopping, but there's shopping for personalities, right? They might not like the first person, so we send the prelim to the second person. That's fine.

17:12 But to have the Realtor® in the mix they need I need to have them contact me directly or Deedy. It's all the same. You know, it's interesting that when I get a listing after the probate's been filed. There's two ways it works, right? I get contacted by the somebody refers me to the consumer or the executor or administrator and then we take them to attorney like you said refer to attorney or there's an attorney already been opened and either they refer me at that point or the attorney refers me. I always assume they have a prelim, but they never do. Never assume that the attorneys and this is not directed at anyone negatively. This has been my experience. The attorney's number one priority is not getting a prelim. Their number one priority is figuring out the players, what the situation is, how long the court date looks, how far it's out, what's the asset of the all of the other variables, right? I'm the technician guy who has to deal with the deeds. So, assume that the attorney has not opened it and we'll cross reference. Deedy has you know, she can punch in any address it'll say if we have an open deal. So, or anybody, any title company. So, Oh, interesting.

18:23 Just so you know. Right. And so what happen So, what happens if let's say company X has it open? Can I still cuz I if I've used your app and I feel like I've you know, used your service and maybe unbeknownst to you Deedy looked at it and said, hey, there's this, there's a that. I get the attorney, we fix it. Now it's time to order the prelim. Oh, well so and so has it. Do we just order a new one and tell the other company they're canceled or Yeah, in most cases what happens is they want the cleanest prelim and the one that's the least hassle for them, right? As and it's as an attorney. Yeah. Ours tends to be that. So, we don't really care who's prelim was there first. In most cases we're going to close on ours. That's been my experience. So, let's talk a little bit about the liens in probate. We are more likely to get older stuff. Somebody owned the house for 30, 40 years. They took a [sighs] mortgage out 40 years ago and they paid it off and didn't get reconveyed. Maybe it was a private party or some bank went out of business. How do you handle those liens that we know it had to be paid off, but we don't have any proof that it has been. How is that going to handle through your title So, my number one thing I want to avoid on old stuff is bonds, right? Because title companies like to ask for a bond, which means we're not taking liability even though we assume the loan from 45 years ago is paid off. We don't have a reconveyance. Everyone's dead. We don't have something to record. So, we ask for a bond. My job is to avoid that.

19:47 It's wasted money. There are certain circumstances where we have to because there's no paper trail whatsoever. And we got to, you know, we got to figure out something. But, in 90% of those cases, logic does play a role. The biggest issues on probate cases is uninsured deeds. Prior to the person passing, they were taking direction from someone, so there's a random deed here, there's a random

20:16 Deed your kin on so you can avoid probate. Yeah. Yeah, not you know, and then we have to go through the validity of those deeds. And most of those deeds, towards the end of someone's life, tend to be set aside. They're not They're not really valid deeds that you can go into court with. So that's really where I play the biggest role. My role is working with the heirs remaining, or the executor, or anyone who had contact with the parties, and find out what the story was, right? Lawyers aren't going to take that time. I'm not going to lie. My underwriters aren't going to take that time. That's my job. I got to get the facts, present them, and make a case for what is our liability on a 45-year-old TD for 100,000 with Uncle Frank. If Uncle Frank's dead, and the party that the borrower is dead, and we have five underwriters, so I can shop that. But, it doesn't really get to that stage. It, you know, if you know what you're doing, people understand what you're talking about, right? The uninsured deeds also, I think, are often the source of litigation in probate Every time. They're legitimate transfers, and they just aren't done with insurance, and then sometimes they're not done 100% properly. So, you can argue, well, how important is that typo, or how important is that lack of a word or two in the description, or whatever, and that becomes then subject of court, you know, controversy, and the title company can't step in resolve that if it's truly controversial.

21:53 Right. Uninsured deeds, the easiest way to remember, they're checked for accuracy, not validity. The county recorder checks, is there a legal description? Doesn't have to be right. Is there a legal description? Is there a notary seal? Is this an original? And are the boxes filled out correctly? That they will record the document for accuracy. There is no checking for validity. That's the whole job of title companies. Is it a valid transfer? Why does this signature look different? Why are we using a notary that we've never seen before? Why? And there's so many variables, right? Elder abuse is the number one thing that we have to worry about in California. Let's talk about that, cuz that, you know, I know that is increasing dramatically. And I know I see all the time, and I see cases sometimes so complicated that you know, probably just wants to give up and say, "What do we do?" Like, you know, somebody transferred this, and they're making the case, and to fight it is going to cost you a couple hundred thousand dollars, you know, if you have the money, you can fight it. If you don't have the money, what do you do with it? You must see those kinds of things. Well, yeah, you know, the good news on the elder abuse things is they've made it much quicker. You can You can call 211.

23:14 And they will route you 211 will route you to any service that the state or federal government provides. Okay? So, you can report elder abuse, or suspected elder abuse. I have reported numerous times in my career, where someone comes in, I had one person, kind of a horror story, where she's dressed for the funeral, and she brings this document in and says, "I'm on the way to the funeral, but he signed this 5 days ago, and you're going to record it." And she was a caregiver, not a relative or anyone, and we didn't. I said, "That's not going to happen. We have to vest We have to vet it. We have to figure out what was going on." And it became very aggressive. Like, I had to call the police. So, again, you know, had she gone into the recorder, they would have recorded it, because it was an accurate document. Wasn't valid, but the form was filled out, right? So, that's kind of what we run into. We run into a lot of last-minute Hail Mary things that they think are going to work, and they just state of California, you know, the courts are very specific of what they want. Yeah. Yeah, particu- particularly Los Angeles County, I think, is very I was just going to say. And you know, in other states, people don't pursue probate, because there's not a lot of money in it. The average house here is a million dollars. It's probably worth somebody to go to probate, right? Right.

24:44 Yeah, and here we have more litigation, so there's more rules, so it's more difficult. One of the things when I again, when you and I met with your team, and I considered using you for as a title resource for my personal business, one of the things you guys said that just jumped out and said, "These guys are legit probate vendors, or probate partners in my business, potentially," was when we talked about the requirement every time, if you have a court order, you need the court requires a wet certified copy of the court order confirming the sale. And while it seems crazy in This is December 2025 recording this, that it'd be easier for me to go buy a fake stamp and make a fake certified copy and deliver to you, that's still the rule in LA County, and you're not going to close without the original. And then what happens is everybody acts like they don't know it's due, because the attorney does maybe one or two a year in many cases. Nine times out of 10, they do one or less a year. They don't know that they need to get an original wet signature to escrow. I've done it many times. I just use a service and send the bill to escrow, because it's a legitimate, you know, cost.

25:59 Right. It's a legitimate cost. And you guys say you guys great. Yeah, we already have a service that does that. Doing that for you. So, and you're a thousand percent right. I think And this goes back to not slamming attorneys. They have a very specific job, but their that job was fulfilled when the court, you know, gavored the deal, right? They're not dealing with the title requirement, which is we must have a wet signature to record. That is the new vesting deed, right? So, it must be public at some point, right? So, we just decided not to leave it up to you, or their person, or whoever they had that hangs out at the court, right? We tried that for a

26:41 Long time. Now, I just have a dude. That's all he does. He goes to the various courts. He's very familiar, and that's just easier, and it's one less thing people have to I feel like it's a chance to show my partners that I'm good. Meaning, Absolutely.

26:58 "Hey, I know you need to get the original. Do you want me to get it for you? If I give you the invoice, will you reimburse me?" "Sure, you'll do that." I was like, "That's great." I call the attorney. "Hey, by the way, we need the original wet signature. You want me to go ahead and do that for you?" "I would love it. Fantastic." I tell the paralegal, "I would shoot from the rooftops. Hey, I got the original deed." Now, the truth is, I call service, they go down, pick it up, deliver it, email me the invoice, send it to escrow. I, you know, it takes 5 minutes. But, it's amazing how people sit around pointing fingers, and it just sits there for days. My thing, after the first finger-pointing, just order the dude. I'm done. I, you know what? By the time you guys are figuring out who whose responsibility it is, it's in my possession. We're good.

27:41 That's required when you have a trust, right? Cuz the mistake the misconception I get is well, a trust avoid probate or litigation. The answer is, well, they're designed to, and in many cases do, but if not held properly, don't. When you have a trust that's done properly, it transfers upon death the ownership from the decedent to whoever the beneficiaries are. And so, you have Let's say imagine you have all the right paperwork, and you present it to escrow, it goes to your title company, you guys approve with either a certificate or the whole trust.

28:15 Right. What's required in order in addition to the grant deed in order to make that transfer complete? Okay, so we need a full copy of the trust. We need all the amendments. They're going to have to sign a trust cert stating that there have been no amendments that we don't know about. Here's something. If there's an amendment that you have, the seller, in their possession that we do not have access to, and it comes and bites us in the ass, you signed your trust certification saying there wasn't any Your title insurance is null and void. You lied to us. So, number one, that vetting process. A lot of times I have to say to people, "Well, I know there's amendments, but I don't know where they are." Well, your title insurance will be null and void if we do not have access to them. How do you feel about that? Suddenly, they appear, right? So, that's the first thing. And secondly, really talking to the beneficiaries about not coming out of that trust. The seller needs to be the trust, because all of the benefits, the capital gains, Prop 19, all of that stuff is inherent in the trust. The trust is still a living, breathing entity, even after I pass. So, that's There's a lot of instruction there. Most people, I want, you know, I want my name on there. Okay, so that means that the property tax is going to be reassessed to current market value.

29:37 Good luck with that, by the way. Enjoy that. That's a great piece of mail you're Let me just Yeah, that happens every year. Say you sell the property, forever, okay? And then you've got the capital gains. Well, I didn't live there, so now you don't have capital gains. Now you have to market as an investment property. So three and a third goes to the government, right? It's those little nuances of I want to see my name. Do you How badly do you want to see your name? I had this conversation yesterday. Is it worth $12,000 a year to see your name? Cuz right now you're paying free. If it's worth nine grand to you to see your name, let's do this deed. Property tax is going to be reassessed. And if you sell it in the next 10 years, probably there's going to be prob- problems for you. But again, you can only tell people your knowledge base, and then they make their decisions. And that's our That's what we do. Whatever their choice is, that's what we do. Some attorneys will tell me that they don't want to disclose the full copy of the deed of the trust because there might be issues as far as inheritances and who's getting and who's not getting. They won't be

30:38 That's not their decision to make where the title company we're insuring it, and we need to see everything. Right. So just a simple Here's my answer. Yeah. I've been asked that numerous times. Right. And so you There's no way for them to certify around that. I gu- I guess the answer is they can, but then they keep on the liability. We're not making the trust public. It's not a public document. The only people that see it is our title officers, myself, and we're all bonded. We all have, you know, cuz we have to we're also responsible for the Department of Treasury and Homeland Security and all the other stuff that title companies now are responsible for. So there's just more questions. I think the difference between 37 years ago and now for me is we I have to ask seven questions and then verify each one. And that's fine. That's the nature of our society now. So that's my job. So I know a lot of your customers are real estate agents, real estate brokers, and professionals. And you see a lot of them who are successful. I know you work with some of the top agents in the market. And I know you work with some, you know, brand new people who are hustling and on the rise. And you I know you work with people who started a couple years ago or on the right track and not. What's the difference between those who start and get on the right track and have success versus those who start and burn out?

32:01 What are What are one or two of the key activities or one of the one of the characteristics you see? Older and this is I'm I fall into this category periodically, and I have to be snapped out of it. Older agents' worst problem, I already know everything. Real estate, everything's changing. That's why I've stayed in it for so long. Because doing title wouldn't have been interesting for 37 years. The changes in real estate and the changes and how you react to those is interesting to me. I like that. I'm a big nerd. Like I like solving the puzzle, right? So that to me is very is very interesting. When you see the new people that I know are going to do well, it really comes down to listening more than talking and only picking you know, when you when new agents come in, they're like, "I want a farm, and then I want this, and I want my sphere." Okay, pick a niche, keep it under 500 people, and start with everybody in your phone. That will give you databases. Just where you live. 500 people around and people in your phone. You can have a real estate career starting there.

33:19 But we There's so many other avenues in real estate that people get very sidelined. So my job is to keep Like I always say every day, forward motion, Bill. Every day we need to see something forward motion towards your career. That's my job. You know, you I say the same thing. There is nothing that pisses off other Realtors® more than when I say that to them. You know, I get asked me on podcasts

33:42 Oh, it's not a pop quiz. Like you do. And you know, we'll build What's advice you have? It's like, you know, you can do a lot of exotic things, but you better start with everybody you know already. My best probate business, my two best clients in my career, one was a young woman. My wife and I knew her mother socially, and we had lunch with her like years ago. And then years later, we had dinner with her at a friend's house. We met her socially again. And then one day I was at court and bumped into her, and she had like 12 properties to sell in probate court. And the other one was a long-time friend who was actually a teacher of a class who I knew was an attorney. I didn't know he did probate. Well, he's a civil attorney who when their clients die, they have claims and matters or whatever to deal with. And he gave me my first and third biggest assignments. They One was $40 million worth of property. The other one was probably about $8 million worth of property. People that I knew that were in my phone. And I tell this to people, and they're like, "Yeah, but you know, I don't feel comfortable." Well, then you're just not going to make it. Like if you can't call people you know and tell them you're working on something you learned something you're excited about, I think and you think I'm confirming that's the key to the whole thing. I waited 30 years before telling my database of my fraternity brothers from UC Irvine who all live right here, right? We went to UCI.

35:07 And I just I You know, one day I was talking to the president of the alumni thing, and I go, "Hey Harv, like do you think" He goes, "Kevin, everyone's judges, lawyers, and Realtors®. Just send out a thing that says this is what you do." Literally within four days, plus I got to talk to a lot of guys I haven't talked to in a long time. But I'm just I tell people to do that every day, and I didn't do it for 30 years. So again, it's just having people around you that tell you just nudge you. Like have you done that, right? Try it. The biggest thing that I see, and this is human nature and has nothing to do with real estate, fear of the unknown. What's the worst I'm from New York, okay? I don't care what people say.

35:50 So I'm always like, "What's the worst?" They hang up and they shut the door. Big deal. Move on to the next. So that part, I think just getting out of people's heads, that's probably my biggest advice. So last topic, the subject on all business press, every industry been to go to. I went to a convention. I would say about half the content was related to using artificial intelligence. It is amazing the tools available. No matter you use them, I use them, or staff members use them, or we're directing them how to use them. Talk a little bit about how you personally, if at all, are using it, and where you see this changing your particular activities over the next couple years. Okay. So initially there were a lot of concerns that AI would be helping with our search and exam. That is not something that I can't speak for all the title companies, but I have a lot of friends at all the title companies, and no one's looking at that. Search and exam needs to still be physical human eyes. We're matching up signatures over people's time in their lives and all the other stuff, right? So that will not AI for me has helped a couple ways. One, you know, when you're speaking at office meetings for 37 years, you run out of stuff to say. Okay.

37:10 So I can literally say before I'm walking in, Orange County real estate stats last week following cities. I have talking points, right? I like No. Now hold on. I have a hard time believing that you are out of words at any point in time. Well, it but with a value. Oh. Oh. Okay, I got it. No. That makes sense. With the You could babble on. Okay, I got There's I have to be going somewhere with it, right? So there has to be Well, like right now, and this is a great thing for your topic. Southern California numbers are in. The average seller is 64 years old. The average buyer is 48. If you think that is not going to add to probate, trust, all of those types of our business, seven cents COVID or pandemic, whatever you want to call it, we're at 65% of all the sales are trust or probate sales. That's two thirds. And there's so much money involved. So again, you don't need to know everything. You have a very comprehensive overview of all this, and you that you This is your niche. But the average agent, I feel, needs to just know a little about trusts. That just not get into the probate realm cuz it's very complicated.

38:34 But just know enough about trusts that 65% of your sales are going to be in trust. Know what to ask for. Know when to bring me in. That type of it. Well, just the piece we talked about what's needed and why. And I think knowing that, so when you're asked that question, or maybe putting out there. I know you guys have like a little handout what's required in a trust transaction. I've seen the flyer. I'm not sure what you call that, but like a flyer or some sort of like a library thing. That's one Marketing Yeah, marketing pieces. We just If you really know that one piece of paper, you know, you can talk about it and record yourself and make a video, and you can post all that on all your social media. And then you can call your customers, "Hey, by the way, Joe, I know that you guys bought the property as Joe and Mary Smith, but I don't see it in a trust. Have you considered the advantages of that and why it's important?" Or 100%. Or hey, I see you have it in a trust. Do you know if you were to sell the property, you're going to need a copy of the whole thing with all the amendments. Do you have it all in one place? Or you know, if you change attorneys. And those are things that you're now helping your customer. You're creating some value, but you're also showing your knowledge off. Well, here's a million-dollar idea. Every person that has a farm, we can give you just the people that are held in a trust. Reach out to them and their cell phone number and their email address, okay? You reach out to them and say, "I see your property's in a trust.

39:52 When was the last time it was updated?" If you need an update, because that's the problem. A lot of these trusts well, I was that guy. When I did mine, you know, my daughter was a minor, I wasn't married, and my brother was the executor cuz he was the smartest dude I knew. And now she's grown, she's an attorney, and he's passed away. So, that trust had no validity, right? I just went from scratch again. But, had that not happened and I passed, it would have been difficult. The players were not really So, every 5 years review your trust. Muy importante. Very important. Well, look, obviously Kevin, we could talk forever about a lot of things and probate trusts are one of them.

40:36 I'm glad you had me on. This is fun. Anytime. Of fun. I really enjoyed it. For somebody who wants more information from you, we have your contact info below. [phone number]. And if you want to go to the Kelly team. Now, we didn't talk about this. This is an app that as a customer, you give me access to public records. Maybe just give us a short overview of what the Title Advantage does for your customers. Like I like I said earlier, I think the best thing is you're sitting at a supermarket, somebody says they're interested in selling their house or their mother's house, and you just want to see the grant deed. So, you go to OCT mobile, and you can literally just put in the county, the name of the individual or the property address or whatever, and it'll give you an overview of what's available, right? Verify what their taxes are currently, verify the last deed, we throw in some comparables, there's a map so that you can see the lot size, but anything past that bring us in. That's my advice. Bring us in. It's a great Yes, I'm meeting John and Suzy. What I do like if you haven't had time to call us and you're walking into somebody's house just verify that all the parties are there, right? Like we see this a lot.

41:58 Kevin Kelly Jr. Wants to sell the house, but Kevin Kelly Sr.'s on there, too, and he's not at that meeting. So, you know, you if you to have a valid listing, you got to have all the parties. So, that's really the most important part for me. Well, so for those agents and Tracy renewers, it's a great tool to have. Contact the office for more details. And those of us who are specialists, you know, every company seems to have one of these. This tool works really nice. I just used it over the weekend on a prospective new probate case. And so, for me, this is what how the process starts. I get the data, and the next thing you know, you get the profile, then you get the prelim, and the next thing you know, you're closing escrow and getting paid. So, that's how it works.

42:35 That's exactly how it's supposed to go. And don't be weird. People are like, "I think it's a dumb question." Those are the ones that we learn from, and I get a hundred questions a day. There are things that I have to renew, as well. So, there's never a dumb question. Just throw it at us. It's no big deal. It's our job. Fantastic. Well, look, Kevin, thank you so much for your time today.

42:57 Thank you, Bill. It's fun. Know you've always been really helpful with the local office when I was in Long Beach area. I know you do office meetings stuff all the time. Thank you for your contribution to the industry. And look forward to continue work with you and your team. Love that. Thank you. Thanks for your time, everyone. Appreciate it. And for everyone else, this is Probate Weekly. We have a new episode every week where we interview most commonly attorneys, vendors that help us be more successful with our customers. And I think today you found a title company that is obviously very committed to serving particularly real estate agents and attorneys here in Southern California. If I can help at all, I'm at Bill Gross Probate. Please feel free to like this, subscribe. If you know somebody or want to be interviewed on this as well, reach out to me. If I can help in any way, as always, make today your best day ever. Thank you so much.