Expert Probate and Trust Real Estate Services, with Mark Cianciulli

0:03 When I started in probate real estate going to court, I saw there were agents who assumed that they knew what they were doing until it was obvious they didn't. If you take a probate listing that ends up in court confirmation and don't really know what you're doing, aren't really an expert in the field, you're really doing a disservice to yourself, our industry, and to your customer, unfortunately, and probably the attorney. One of the people I saw operate regularly, not only did I see him operate with professionalism, but literally teaching and training and helping improve the business of attorneys in the LA County court system, is Mark Cianciulli, who not only is a real estate agent, but also is attorney. Mark really creates the standard of probate expert in Los Angeles County. I'm really excited to have him today. Mark, thanks for joining us.

0:44 Happy to be here. Thanks for having me. So of all things in the world, you have your law license, you have your real estate license. How did you end up in the crossroads of the two in probate real estate and making real estate in probate the focus of your business?

0:56 Dumb luck. [laughter] you know, I think it was just stumbled upon it kind of randomly, haphazardly, and it just piqued my interest when I did, and then I just ended up looking into it more and more, ended up at one point flying up to Northern California to speak with someone in the industry about it and try to learn as much as I can as quickly as I can, and eventually made the leap and was faking it till I make it, and then doing it for real, you know?

1:35 How much does you being an attorney help Did the education prepare you, or was it more the It gave you the system with which to absorb the information to put into practice in your real estate business?

1:46 Probably the latter. I think being an attorney, you know, going through law school and practicing as an attorney teaches you how to think about things and it wasn't like you know, I had a huge understanding of the trust and estates space from a legal perspective going into this, but I definitely had the tools to learn and adapt, you know, fairly quickly.

2:13 Yeah, and also I think learn how to address the court properly. I think the one thing that I'm not an attorney, so I wasn't taught it, but I kind of figured out pretty early, don't argue with a judge, don't talk to the judge unless you, keep it short, keep things moving and you see unfortunately colleagues of ours who kind of fall to pieces under the pressure of the bright lights so to speak.

2:31 Yeah, it's you know, to put yourself in their shoes. I mean, I see I see attorneys that have a tough time with it, right? That are that are newer to it. So it's not an easy position to be in, but certainly it helps to have confidence and experience and expertise in our space. You know, no one expects you to be something that you're not. No one expects people in our shoes to be an attorney, but they do expect you to, you know, speak with authority and to speak with confidence and from information, when, you know, when you have to be in court.

3:08 One of the reason I'm really excited to have you today is your expertise and the fact that you carry yourself, but you also implement, you it comes across in the way you handle your business that there's so many companies who, you know, train real estate agents and give you a certificate as an expert. Now, I will say that I felt comfortable using that term, but I at least committed to going to court every day and I realized after 3 days if I just kept going every day to the 8:30 hearings in LA County, I would see at least one or two sales every day. I became, I think, at some point the expert on court sales in LA County at that time, right? Times change and markets change. I still feel comfortable putting that that mantle on. I'm still uncomfortable when people say I'm the probate expert because there are people who've done a lot more than me. There's people who've done much more complicated than me, but at least I'm committed to continuing and growing and I see that with you as well. It's going to be frustrating when you see other agents who they went to one course and they're cold calling, you know, people saying, "Oh, I'm a probate expert." And they may or may not have listed any and sold. They may have listed sold a bunch and made a lot of mistakes along the way. So, I know you have a team of people. How do you How do you kind of explain to your team members, the people you're coaching, the mentees, what it really means to be an expert, what the process is for your success?

4:23 Well, I mean, we are really dedicated and clear on who we are and who we want to be and so, we're constantly and we're constantly engaged in different matters where you know, we're our process is being put to test. new things are coming up and so, we're really regimented, not in a not in an overly mechanical way, but I think in a healthy way where we are getting together three times a week. We're getting in and out of files, so to speak, right? Transactions together. We are discussing what is the next you know, we have these master processes, but like everything's different. So, we're we're basically reconciling our process with what's going on in the transaction three days a week, right? So, we're staying on top of things and I that's a big that's that's a big process of ours that that keeps us accountable, keeps us up to date, keeps us feeling good and we have good firm understanding of where we're at and what needs to be done next.

5:28 You know, I come from an engineering and production control background and I love a good checklist and system procedures. Mike Tyson famously said, you know, everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face. I feel like in real estate, every listing you get punched at least once, right? If you haven't been punched yet, if something hasn't gone wrong, you assured something's is to go wrong cuz that's just the nature of dealing with people in these complicated transactions. And so it sounds like you're staying on top of things with your team. Which brings me to my next question. One things I find interesting is you don't market your name personally. you know, you market the name of your company, but you do it as a group, meaning you're not emphasizing you individually, which you know, again, I know your team. I you know, I they're all fine, but I think really stand out. But you made the decision to focus as a group. Talk about that and how that presents your the value proposition in the marketplace.

6:21 Yeah, and I feel like I consciously or subconsciously made that decision pretty early on. and I think it was more conscious. I didn't know what we're going to be what we were going to be. I don't know what we're going to be, you know, 5 or 10 years from now, but I wanted to leave myself like I wanted to leave the options open and I don't you know, things tend to find them their way to me. Problems tend to find their way to me. And if not leading with my name, you know, maybe we're going to help that a little bit, right? It gives you the chance for the entity to be synonymous with your expertise versus like me personally. Cuz it is it is it is much more than just than just me.

7:14 Yeah. No, it is. You have a great people behind you. It's really you built something special. So, when it's interesting that that I think like you most of my business comes referred to me by other professionals, right? And I'm not I don't cold call, so I don't often get the oh yeah, I've had four other people call me. I'm going to interview five agents on Wednesday night. You want the 3:00 slot or the 7:00 slot? I actually tell these customers, hey, if you have four other people as good as me, just pick one of them. Because they don't understand what possibly go wrong. And I always feel like you know, with even with a with a full authority probate without court confirmation, you know, there's not that much different until there's something different. Then it becomes a problem. So, talk about, you know, if you could tell a seller who is casually picking an agent just because they're the local neighborhood bus bench agent or the local open house king or queen versus the protection you're offering through your service and your team. What are one or two things that they should be aware of that just not get they're not going to think to ask you the question. You know, I tell them how important it is cuz they're not really going to listen to you. But what are one or two things that you think that sellers should be aware of when they pick an a common agent versus somebody who's an expert in this area?

8:26 So, sometimes it's apparent at the beginning of administration, like you said, like a limited authority probate. You know, there is [clears throat] more nuance to it. You know, that there's more involved from the outset. In some administrations, simple trust administration, maybe it's not apparent at the beginning. and maybe it becomes more apparent when you start digging in at the beginning or sometimes it becomes it things come up in the midst, right? of the process. So, you just these things can come up whenever and it's not always it's just not always obvious at the beginning. But what I do say is in these administrations, there's typically a handful or more of recurring issues that we see a lot that are not typical, right? In the standard real estate world, right? They're they're more unique to administration land sales.

9:29 One of the things that I'm sure you see I that I see it's obvious to me is the longer from filing to appointment a full authority, you know, if you have a continuance or two or three, the longer that goes, the increase the chances of problems. It's not to say it's going to be a problem, but if you get approved right away, at that point there's no problem. There's no problem. If you get a continuance, there's just a possibility of a problem. And so, I try to tell the customer, you know, speed kills. Get this thing done, then you're in authority versus now trying to handle objections and then all that comes with that. that's a fine line because I know while you're an attorney, I don't think you do the probate administration yourself. You're you're doing you know, maybe other legal work, but you're you're still like I'm a real estate agent and I'm working with an attorney. And it's a fine line between me helping the attorney, me helping the customer kind of I don't want to say the expense of the attorney, but annoying the attorney, and me just pissing the attorney off. Like there's there's there's a fine lines to walk. Talk a bit about your strategy on how you support the attorney that you're working with, maybe who didn't refer you the case, but you inherited with them or vice versa. How do you handle that that communication in a way that's effective and maybe you have to push a little bit, you're able to get it done?

10:44 True. Well, first of all, I want to comment on your on your the timing. Time like timing is not neutral, right? So, like choosing to wait a little longer is is a conscious choice that has consequences. And I totally know, you know, momentum in this space is is is pretty key because you know, not only are you incurring holding costs of some sort, you're you're you're there is some risk to that decision. and things tend to come up. and so, you know, just wanted to comment on that. But in terms of your other question, I would say, you know, your you our course of course our job is to sell the real property that is involved in administration, but they're so it's so intertwined with the administration. if it's not the biggest piece, it's a significant piece of this transition transitionary period. And so, you want to evaluate what's going on the administration, you want to evaluate the real estate, and you want to try to reconcile that. and present as clear as path as possible to the attorney while not Yeah, not encroaching, but you know, as long as you do it clearly and thoughtfully, like I don't think many professionals are going to, you know, take issue with that.

12:12 I don't know. It's an area It's an area I [laughter] struggle with. Maybe you're a nicer guy than me, I think, is part of it. Okay. [laughter] But I struggle with that, like because look, if, you know, you know that sometimes you go I'm sure you go online you see property notes if they don't clear before the hearing, they're not going to get approved. If they're not approved, it's another 30, 40 days, you know, summer's coming up, the judge is off for a month, 90 days, who knows? And there's nothing going to happen. In my experience, I'm sure it's the same with you, I've never had a house that was burned down get rebuilt in probate. I've only had houses that burned down during probate. I've never had a house that was vacant, I mean sorry, that had a squatter vacated during probate unless we pry them out with a crowbar. I've had plenty of listings, especially lately, that were vacant that all of a sudden get squatted on and now we're The whole sale has fallen apart, we have to re you know, regroup, and it's a long time to get started again. So, again, it is one of those things where I struggle with that, and maybe it's my personality And I also think the fact that you're an attorney creates for you a lot of respect that I don't have. I often get attorneys saying to me, "Well, are you an attorney?" And it's like, well, okay, I can't say this to him. It's in plain English, "I've done a bunch of these. I know what I'm doing." But you can't say that to somebody cuz that sounds argumentative. And I think you know, that's I think one of the key advantages you possess is that you're they see you more as a colleague than they're going to probably almost any other real estate agent.

13:36 It certainly helps and I've always thought it kind of helps to at the beginning of the relationship at least like maybe given a little bit extra time and given an opportunity to introduce myself and you know, converse a little bit but you know, I there's a lot of personalities that we deal with. I'm sure you feel the same way and it's a little bit of that is trying to present what you see as obstacles without telling people what to do and that's not an easy that's an art, you know.

14:16 Yeah. One of the things that surprises me also in this business after I get into for a while, I think when you start you assume that the attorneys are very focused on who the realtor is in transaction. And you know, as a real estate agent myself, I'm very particular about the prelim the title company that we use and the escrow to give good service to my customer. we need quick service, professional service, consistent service and better than average. And so, you know, not to say they haven't changed over time but I do work hard to support the vendors that support our business but also because I know they're going to help our customer. I'm surprised at how attorneys some are very adamant on their approved vendors. In fact, I'd say the bigger ones, the ones who do them more. And the vast majority I would say you know, they you know, the customer says, "Oh, I have this, you know, brand new part-time agent

15:07 [laughter] who never did a deal." Oh, yeah, sure, go ahead and list with them. And you want to say, you know, do you realize what you've just done to your customer? You've really kind of not given them the protections they need. So, talk a bit about maybe what do you think are the misconceptions attorneys have about the job we do. and I know you I know you teach on the subjects of all the potential problems. What are some of the things you think attorneys maybe miss, the average attorney, not the top ones, but the average one maybe misses, and why it's so important to have a relationship where the vendors can deliver for them and their client?

15:37 Yeah, you know, it does There is some frustration in terms of how some people treat it versus how others, you know, other people are adamant because they've they've seen it, things have gone sideways, and they're not they're they're not going to let that happen at all costs, right? And there's some that no matter what are giving three names, and there's no you know, they want to be impartial, they want to be fair, right? Okay, well, that's that's great, but like, is that what's is that what's best for your client, right? And this given what's going on in this particular administration, like, you're telling me that there's not a preference here, and it's okay if the preference isn't us, but like, I think you know, given the situation, given the administration, given the person the person, there should be a preference. And I And it's okay, you know, it's you're do you're you're advocating for your client by saying, "Hey, I this is the person I think is best, and here's why."

16:43 Mhm. And here's another person, and here's their pros and cons and whatever, and maybe they you're you're you're certainly hopefully have confidence in everybody you're you're presenting, but it's certainly to be indifferent and impartial and then just put it on the client, I don't love that approach.

17:00 Especially since it's a critical piece. You know, I'm a real estate broker with a part of a large company. I know you're independent, but you know, when you work for a big company, a lot of training is just how not to get sued, and so they're never really teaching you maybe focus or they're not teaching as much on helping the customer, and so the common practice is well, you need to refer three people, refer three, you know, mortgage lenders.

17:21 Yeah. Well, why? One's good, the other two aren't that good. Why? Why do you want me to tell my customer, here's average or below average, consider them too. Why should I Aren't they paying me to say this guy is the best or this guy is pretty good, he's not perfect and give them the details. Isn't that what they're paying us for? I feel like as a real estate agent, I mean as attorney, when a client comes to you for a probate, aren't they paying you to say, "Hey, this guy is really good, he's going to help you. These other ones may be dis- realtors, but this is a different swamp we're going in. There's a bunch of alligators here, you need somebody on your team."

17:52 Yeah, and I'm I'm not shy and in terms of making my recommendation for the people, you know, in the stuff that we work in, you need we need to bring in or at least endorse, recommend, bring in professionals to deal with whatever we're dealing with, the same way that a trust and estates attorney, the same way that a private professional fiduciary, right? A personal representative of an estate would need to do the same thing. So, I really as I've as I've been in this space and I've watched other people do it, the most effective people that I've seen are the ones that assess what's going on and then are decisive and are not afraid to make a decision and push forward and that even if that means this is your person, right? I mean, this is the person that's going to get it done and there's no reason not to work with them because you know, of X, Y, and Z.

18:48 Well, also I think it leverages your power, right? If you have more people you're bringing to the to the problem area, you know, if you have a fiduciary recommend or the right attorney or the right apprai- you know, right whatever, you're just giving more value to your customer and it gives you more chance to create value, which is what we're being paid for at the end of the day.

19:06 Right, totally. One other challenges I think we have when we work with attorneys, and again, I'm just interested in your perspective because you are a little different than the average bear. is you know, with attorneys I think they struggle with where does being an attorney end and where does customer service and doing administrative work on behalf of the client who's the administrator executor begin? And you know, and I course I had that same challenge as a real estate agent, right? I'm not their you know, attorney, obviously. I'm not their you know, estate sale company, but they have a problem and my job is to help you solve it. How do you kind of walk that line with a with customers call you where there's there's issues? You can't And I think you still can't really give your clients legal advice. You still have the same challenge cuz you're not retaining you, right? So, how do you how do you handle that where one line ends and when one line begins and sometimes I find myself pushing the customer say, "Well, call your attorney. This is what you're paying them for." Or you know, they'll call and complain, "Well, he's not helping me with the clean out." Well, that's not his job, but let me help you with some resources and they have the wrong impression. How do you kind of handle that line between whose job's whose and being good service and at the same time not taking on liability or risks that you can't take?

20:18 You know, okay, so on the on the one end it's trying to stay in your lane and not give legal advice, not opine on you know, legal matters. On the other side, it's all this administrative work that the personal representative is responsible for and needs to get done. And are you going to do it or you going to make some recommendations or you going to stay out of it? Our strategy with that is we try to help with those type of things as much as possible to take that off of the administrator. Now, we're teaming it up, we're having them review it, they're giving us the green light, we're overseeing it. At the end of the day, you know, hopefully we're taking some administrative burden off of them. That's that's typically how we do it. and it's just such They're They're so intertwined with so many of these adminis- so many of these sales within these administrations. So, it just felt like it They were going hand in hand, and so we needed to figure out how to provide as much value. that's That's just how we do it in terms of the you know, getting involved in the legal administration, we're careful. We're careful. I mean, we're not I'm I'm not always pointing someone back to their attorney.

21:49 I try to comment without giving legal advice and be careful about that. But, you know, we have a lot of experience in this. We've seen a lot, and I think it's fair to share that perspective in a helpful way and be very clear that we're not giving legal advice.

22:05 And you give them business advice or advice as a real estate agent. I always like in the area this I was taught within the area of the law that relates to real estate contracts and practices, I'm allowed to give real estate advice. That's the It's could be con- considered legal, but it's not cuz I'm a real estate broker. It's on a limited to that spot, I think.

22:21 Yeah. so, and I also think that one of the differences between our business and a non-probate agent is they have to spend so much money marketing to get their business because they're not getting it based on reputation or expertise, that they don't have the resources to spend servicing the customer during the probate administration. Whereas in my case, I'm not spending 30 40% of Zillow ads or other pay-per-click stuff. So, I because I have to have the profit margin so that I can afford to pay for things or do things that other people can't. So, I also feel like it kind of sets us up in a in a little different business. talk a bit about you know, when you see your business compared to other real estate agents, are there different technologies you're using, different procedures you're using, are there different systems that you focus on and are you able to share some I mean, I'm not looking for proprietary or anything, but you know, can you share some of the things that you do that are different?

23:20 Sure. Okay, so I'll I'll I'll start with this. I think we're structured a little atypic atypical. so we have, you know, on all real all residential real estate transactions, I'm the lead managing broker. I have a lead agent behind me and I have a backup agent behind them in terms of right I know and listen, I don't know when someone's going to want to go on vacation and when someone's going to have, you know, some personal matter come up. So like I know it sounds like overkill, but like people got to have, you know, have their lives too and so let's remove one person from that and now there's there's two left and I'm I'm overseeing the transaction, heavily involved in the strategy and setting that at the outset. I'm involved in all three of those meetings and I get I get heavily involved when there's problems. And then you have your I have our lead listing manager who's an agent who is helping facilitate the back end and then that backup person is really just there to know what's going on in case they're needed. Like they're not they're just there purely as what I said, as a backup. But that's how we structure it and that's that's the people component of it.

24:41 The process component, you know, we have structured checklists and workflows based on the type of transaction. So we probably have six variations, two in probate, two in trust, receivership, bankruptcy, and partitions. And so, I think that might be seven, but yeah. So, anyways, and again, that is a static thing that we try to revisit every 6 months and incorporate what we've learned, what we think we need to tweak if anything. but and then and then that gets taken into that three kind of 90-minute meeting that happens three times a week, and that's where we, you know, nothing's going to go according to that list perfectly. So, that's where we kind of make the tweaks. I we talk of it talk about that meeting as like a magnifying glass along that checklist. And so, we're we're zooming in, where are we? You know, okay, this is what this is the step we're on, this is what the next step says. Is that how we feel given what's going on? Yes, great. No, okay, then what is it going to be and why? so, you know, there's a lot of there's a lot of power, you know, manpower going on in terms of facilitating these transactions, but it helps things, it helps for completeness. I want these things to be reliably executed, right? And so, that is that is just our process. and yeah.

26:18 So, you've grown you know, always over time quite a bit. Where do you see yourself, you know, I know you said in the beginning you can't, you know, predict where you're going to be, but you must have at least a goal or outline or a vision of what's possible. What are you working towards over the next 5 years? Where do you see what are the major areas that you see yourself growing or changing in?

26:39 Well, I think that there's I think that there's an opportunity. I think that there's genuine interest in this space. I don't know if you get that that feeling from other real estate professionals, other realtors out there, they just don't know how to do it, where to start, or whatever. And so, you know, given that I feel like we're we are fairly systematized, and we've we've we're in a good spot in how we handle these things. I think potentially out of state, you know, major markets where there's one major market, two, a probate system that doesn't have to be as complicated as California's, but it I don't, you know, you don't want it to be super simple, either, cuz it will kind of

27:29 [clears throat] you need to add value. And so, if we can create a program, create a way to be involved in those markets, partner with people in those markets, whatever that looks like. I mean, that's I'm not even that far, but just do you understand kind of where I'm what I'm thinking is a possibility in the next 5 to 10 years. Like, that's kind of what I'm There's a There's a There's I have a lot of focus going there.

27:56 Nice. Right now, yeah. Nice. Well, thanks for sharing that. So, obviously, you have a lot of detailed systems, procedures, the way you do you handle things, structure. Are there any particular books, or thought leaders, or systems that you've patterned your business after, or are there ones that are more inspirational than others that that you might recommend to other people?

28:14 I mean, I listen I listen to a lot of audio books on entrepreneurship and business. and I and I take bits and pieces, but like, I really haven't I really haven't looked at the real estate industry to and modeled after something someone or some company. So, it's really been kind of piecemealing different entrepreneurial, business-related nuggets, and trying to fit it in what seems most natural and most intuitive in building this thing. You know, and as I said at the beginning of this you know, this last question was like we're we are I guess you could say bottom heavy. I mean, you know, we have a lot of support personnel and versus like I think a lot of brokerages, right? Or reverse where there's a lot of agents, right? And I don't know. It just again, this is it just kind of came together that way intuitively in order to service transactions the best. That's the way that I see it.

29:21 It's similar I think it's similar guys our business is similar very different than most other realtors because they spend so much time talking about who they are as an agent and trying to meet people and if you have business it's really about delivering and I think in particular probate because it's so different each one you can't have it like an open house system every week it cuz every probate's so different. Some you have access to some you don't. Is there a squatter? Is there this? Is there that? And so I think you've come up with a system that works for you and the way you've organized it and very different than I think most agents. You couldn't find a model to compare I don't think in real estate. Yeah, and

29:54 [sighs and gasps] I would think more in the legal field would be there might be attorneys who do probate administration that would be more models for you than real estate I would think. I think you're right actually. Yeah.

30:07 Okay, so and then I guess the last question is for if there's an agent out there who's looking to start is this a is this a field you point them to? I always tell them no, they should first start real estate or find a way into a team that does this and learn at someone else's expense. Not focus on the split because you know, people pay tuition go to college if you get anything and you're getting paid and you're learning is a key part. Are you actively hiring new agents? Do you take brand new licenses? Do you take agents who are experienced but want to learn probate under belt or what would you what advice would you give to them if the answer is no?

30:41 I like I like your perspective go get general real estate experience first. And then get specific administration led real estate experience from people that really do it. And I don't know, you know, what that might look like in given, you know, the different people that, you know, kind of we are highly regarded in our space, but I'm sure that there's opportunities if they were ever approached. It's just figuring out how to do it. I'm not actively looking for it, but as I just mentioned, I am working on something bigger, right? That can be more expansive and go outside of Southern California. And So, yeah, my advice is get regular real estate experience, then find a mentor, someone you can get specific get mentored in our space specifically. And you know, I think while I don't have something right now that might be plug and play for people, I can certainly I'm try to be generous with my time, you know, in terms of telling people the good, bad, and in between of what this what this space really involves. Like it's not for the faint of heart.

32:02 [laughter] You better enjoy You better enjoy real estate if you get into probate. You better enjoy solving problems. I mean I enjoy it. I mean, I you know, I hit my numbers. I was going to retire a couple years ago, and I'm just I'm making good money, but I'm also enjoying what I'm doing. It's not fun and games. It's just fulfilling that I can help people and be successful. I think that's the part that's

32:24 I totally agree. And I think I even said that as recently as this morning. Something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, good for you. Well, look, I appreciate I got a little longer on time here, so I we're going to I we're going to wrap things up here. Mark Cianciulli is the founder of CREM, the group that does probate real estate trust real estate and other related legal real estate based here in Southern California. I imagine you serve most of Southern California. If you want to get to the website or more information from him, we have it down below. cremgroupre.com is the website. c r e m g r o u p r e.com is the website. Phone number [phone number shown on screen]. And Mark is the managing broker and founder. and if you're listening to this and you can't write down, call me or be more glad to make the introduction and make that work. Mark, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate getting to learn more about your business. I think also about seeing what a high bar looks like and helping all of us can be inspired to up our game in our own respect. So, thank you so much.

33:21 Thank you, Bill. This was wonderful. And for the rest of you, this is Probate Weekly. We get together every week, usually with probate attorneys or estate planners or litigators. In this case, I think somebody really at the highest level here in Southern California. Built a great team, does a really good job servicing the marketplace. And I find him to be a solid competitor. Very impressed. I've seen him teach classes in LA as well. Hope you learned from this. Give me a thumbs up or down if you like this. Comments, send me a note, text, email me, or reach out. If I can help in any way, @billgrossprobate on social media. As always, make today your best day ever. Thanks so much.