Inheriting Property Without Family Conflict or Financial Stress, with Tanis Kluever of True Point Lending

0:02 One of the key parts of real estate is financing. When you buy a property or own one, refinancing or you pull equity out and oftentimes people find themselves in trust, estates, and probates with limited options or no options. But there are options. And I've come across this company and also heard her interviewed on a podcast with a good friend Tanis Kluever. She works with trust and estate loans. She's a trusted estate loan expert with trust estate loans. And we're gonna talk today about the loan options are available to estates, not to individuals but to estates. Tess, thanks for joining us today.

0:38 Absolutely. Thank you for having me. So, let's first talk about the product type. You know, when somebody does a loan, they buy a house, they're looking for a 30-year, most commonly fixed rate loan. That's not what we're talking about to hear. What type of product is typically available to a trust estate or a probate estate?

0:57 Yep, that's a great question. So, you're very limited on your loan options when you're dealing with an irrevocable trust or probate because no conventional lender will lend to an irrevocable trust or a property that's in probate. So, you really only have the option of a short-term private money lending. So, it's designed to have a specific purpose and then once probate's closed, they can refinance to a long-term loan or if they're selling it, you just need funds in advance. They get the funds, they're able to sell it. So, depending on their situation, it, you know, whether they're keeping it or selling it, that's what makes the difference. But this lending, there's only one type, unfortunately, when you're dealing with probate or trust.

1:44 So, the short-term loans, what's the most common term that you do? Six months, one year, how do you usually phrase put them? We standardly write them at a 12 month term. So, but we have options to do longer loans. So, if you're dealing with probate and the attorney says this is going to take a lot longer than expected,

2:04 We would be able to do two, threeyear I even have the ability to do a 30-year loan, but ideally we want to put them in a more conforming conventional loan at some point. So, we have very flexibility on it. Most of these clients 12-month term is standard because they have a plan on what they're going to do.

2:23 Yeah. We'll talk about what those plans look like. So, typically I think of this as a real estate broker as a bridge loan. We're bridging from where we are to where we want to be. Correct. And in the middle, we need some money and we turn to Tennis say, "Tennis, can you give us some money, please?" And she lends it to us for a year and everybody's happy. So the other thing is that there's no underwriting in that the estate didn't exist before somebody died. The person did but the state doesn't. The state can be contested legally. There's different risk and so therefore no underwriter is going to be able to ascertain the income and credib creditworthiness of an estate. So this is really it is a hard money loan. I mean I think sometimes people hear the term and assume well that's because I have bad credit or I did something wrong. But it's not that. This is just a more expensive loan because the risks are higher to the investor. Is that a fair way to put it?

3:12 Correct. Exactly. Because these loans are not personally guaranteed and they're just attached to the real estate. So the lender essentially it's a collateral based loan, but there are circumstances when you're going to have payments on these loans. So there's options that you have of either building in payments or setting it up with deferred payments. So, if you're dealing with a very illlquid trust or estate and they don't have any liquidity, we can do that loan but also defer payments so they don't have to worry about that on the interim while they're closing out the trust or closing probate.

3:48 And so, when you say deferred payments, that's no different than really just kind of figure out what the payments would be for that period of time, raising a loan amount for that amount, even though you're borrowing maybe $100,000. It looks like you're borrowing 110 or 120 or 150, whatever the number is, and you calculate the interest based on that. That checks aren't written, but it's imputed through the whole process, right?

4:06 Yes. Exactly. And I mean, as a ballpark, I don't know if you want to answer this question, so I'll just I'll give you my answer I get before I call you or people like you with these things is the customer say to me, "Well, what's it going to cost?" I say, "Well, I don't know. Every deal is different. They're all interritten individually, but as a general rule, it's a hard money loan. It's something like 10% and something like 5 to 10 points. Is it in that range? Am I being overly high, overly low, or is it just so varied there's no answer?

4:33 It's actually two points. Wow. And then usually Whoa. 1099. And what was it? What was the part?

4:41 Two points. Two points. And what was the last part after that? After that, it's typically around 10.99%. Sometimes 11.99. So a little higher than rate than I said, but maybe rates are higher than I last did one. So okay. But two points sounds cheap to me. So, we the idea of these loans is we call them a trust and estate loan because you're stuck in a bind. You can't get financing and we're not a typical hard money lender that is just looking to make as much money on the points. It's already unfortunate for these clients that they have to do these loans. They can't get into traditional financing. So, we try to keep that cost as low as possible for them. And when I've done these, most commonly, somebody like you who also does regular mortgages is part of the longerterm solution, meaning this loans a year, though you offer some other alternatives, but that the real goal is the estate has a property for a year and then distributes it to a person. That person can qualify for a loan. They go to you ahead of time. They know they can qualify. They have the terms. And so the goal of all this is really to set that loan, I think, down the road as well. At least you would leave yourself in that position.

5:50 Absolutely. So if there if there's an acquiring beneficiary, an individual that intends on keeping that property, what we do is we don't just want to give them a hard money loan, you know, and then not have them pre-qualified. It's so important that whoever's keeping that property is pre-qualified for the long-term financing. Otherwise, it's going to get the property will be put in their name and then they can't refinance and they're stuck in this loan that's at a higher interest rate and potentially lose that property because they can't keep up and they can't refinance. So, our company, we're really big on making sure that if someone's keeping the property, they're pre-qualified for that long-term financing. That's an important key in this whole, you know, the bigger picture.

6:34 Now, that's if they're going to keep it. If their plans to sell it, they put a plan together. You have an idea of what the price is worth. They understand the implications and so are you do loans as well when their plan is to just because there certain tax advantages to distribute the whole thing to one party and then they may want to sell that at some point in time.

6:52 Correct. So we do a lot of loans for buying out beneficiaries to preserve a parents low property tax base. That's when someone's keeping it. If they're selling it, we can do a loan to provide for fixing, you know, fixing it up, selling it for max dollar. We can also just provide funds if they need to cover, you know, like property taxes, expenses until it gets sold, things like that. And then also, we do a lot of loans to stop foreclosures when it comes to probate

7:18 Because sometimes if you're dealing like with a reverse mortgage company, they will put them in foreclosure and we can try and extend it as long as possible, but I get clients that call said they won't budge. We can't lose this property. We're not out of probate. So we come in, we pay them off and we give them more time to decide whether they want to keep it, sell it, whatever they want to do. So there's various reasons. So each family's situation is a little bit different and their goals. But the main important thing is as the lender, we don't just do the loan. We know what their exit strategy is. We know what the long-term plan is for the family on what they want to do. And then we try and get that to be as most costefficient as possible. That's I think what is key in the difference between being just a hard money lender or someone who's really an expert with trust in estate lending.

8:08 Two points of very reasonable fee. There 10.99 is a higher rate than most mortgages. But for reverse mortgage that's in foreclosure the they're paying usually paying a penalty rate and fees and costs that make what was a six or 7% mortgage effectively to I think nine or 10. So really you become a cost-effective solution to avoid the loss of equity perhaps.

8:32 Correct. Exactly. And there were for a long time individuals didn't know you can get a loan while it's in probate and they were losing their property and it was sad and unfortunate. That's the last thing you want because they're not getting what you should by that you know going into foreclosure. So that has been a pretty big one just because of the delays in closing probate.

8:56 Yeah. So it just depends. Well, we need to talk because I think I have another podcast on reverse mortgages because I got so involved. I get so many probates now that reverse mortgage they wait you know typically reverse mortgage they have six months after the season's passed. And so either the family doesn't know there's a mortgage many cases or somebody lives in the house and knows but doesn't tell the other siblings because he wants to live there for free or she for free forever

9:22 And by the time they know there's a notice of default filed. Now you have the additional problem of the stigma of being in foreclosure trying to sell the house and the regulations that go along with that. And so I've been working with other lend I didn't know you do these. So you and I need to talk off this to talk about working together on that product as well because if you pay off the reverse mortgage now you the clock is against is off and we're not selling a property with distressed energy behind it and at two points is a very reasonable fee. So just good to this podcast is worth the price you can buy. And for those who listen, you know, I get asked all the time why I do the podcast. I don't charge for it. I don't sell anything other than houses as a as a Realtor®. And my criteria are two. One is I enjoy talking to the person and I've enjoyed talking to Tennis. We've spoke before. And two, I learned something because if I'm learning, it's valuable. Hopefully you're paying attention here learning as well. And okay so let's talk about the loan product most commonly on these hard money loans or loans to estates two points. What are the costs in addition to that? I'm sure you do an appraisal. I'm sure you have other fees involved. What are the other costs to fluctuate this loan? You must have escrow title fees the things normal loan have.

10:35 Yeah. So everything escrow, title, recording fees, the appraisal. So I a lot of the times we're dealing with date of death appraisals. So, we accept an outside appraisal, but we charge an appraisal review fee. That way, our appraisers agre, you know, saying thumbs up, thumbs down, I agree with that value. So, you don't have to get a full appraisal. If you already had one from date of death and a couple years old, we still accept because a lot of times they're distributing off of the date of death value. So, that's really the appraisal we need. And as long as the lender were at a comfortable loan value, that's really what we care about with these loans. And I imagine if I have a prospect for you to do a loan for, you're able to put together some kind of an estimate, not a formal that they sign, but you give me kind of a set of numbers that you're going to say this is about what it's going to cost, and we can give that to the administrator to do a more formal calculation on.

11:28 Yeah, absolutely. So, it's there's two sides of it. The Prop 19 side, we do a full cost benefit analysis. It to ensure that the cost of financing and the tax savings on the property taxes that's a break even point and a benefit. So it's important for Prop 19 to have that break even point for the tax savings covering the cost of financing. So on that aspect, we calculate that. We do a full cost benefit analysis. But for all the other loans, we provide a list an itemized list of all of them in advance so you can see exactly what you're going to pay for this type of loan because we want to be very transparent because again, we're here to help families, not just put them in a loan to make money.

12:12 Yeah, the cost of analysis is interesting because you're going to save money in property taxes, but you're going to save per year a small amount. You're going to pay closing costs up front. And so the question is how many, you know, months or years is it before we recoup that? If you're keeping the property a long time, big savings by lowering your property taxes, you're just keeping it for a year or two, maybe not enough to make sense. So that's a that's a great tool that you offer that.

12:33 Yeah, absolutely. Because there are circumstances where I've had individuals come to me and their break even points about 10 years and at that point you show them and you say, "Look, it's better to just take the partial reassessment on the property taxes and skip the trust loan because the fees are not it's not making sense." And so I think a lot of families, they just don't know or understand a lot about Prop 19. What does a partial reassessment verse, you know, keeping the whole thing look like? And so it's really about education and giving them the financial information associated with everything with Prop 19, keeping that low property tax base and what does that look like? So that operates the same with buying out beneficiaries from a trust and probate.

13:16 So that's where a lot of my expertise is with the Proposition 19 and making sure that the benefit outweighs the cost of financing. Now, Prop 19, for those of listening here, is a California proposition, California law that changed our property tax assessment process. And I'm sure there's a similar process in other states on whether or not the property can be passed from family members with or without reassessments. But in California, it's a big issue because we have higher property values in most states and we have higher taxes than most states and we have pretty aggressive assemb government that seems to add stuff all the time. So, good for you being on top of that because I know it's a topic people ask me about and I've referred to some attorneys, but I think a costbenefit analysis is, it's great to know the legal rules, but at the end of the day, how much am I saving and how long does it take to recoup is important.

14:05 Yeah, we it's very important. You are correct. So, you do loans while the property is in probate and then you secure it to the property. Are you also putting a claim in against the estate in case it gets paid off some other way or are you exclusively leaning it against the property?

14:26 Exclusively leaning against the property. So, I'm sorry. Yeah. So, our loan it's just collateralbased. So, it's not personally guaranteed. It's not attached to the tr the estate or trust as a whole. It's just associated with that property.

14:43 Okay. Do you also separately is there a product that you do trust loans to the estates or is that something I know there are other companies I've interviewed that do that. Is that something you don't do but you just do the property or do you also is that a different product that you also lend to estates? So right now it's just real estate, but because there's been a need for liquidity based off of assets.

15:06 We are currently working on how we can get a product that is a little bit better because you have inheritance advances out there

15:15 And a lot of times you pay a lot of money for those. So we're it's a process, but we're trying to work out that exact product and have it at a lower cost than some of these inheritance advances. So right now it's just real estate, but that may open up as soon as you know we get through the legal process of all of it.

15:32 Yeah, I've seen the inheritance advances again I've had on this podcast numerous companies usually 30% or more of the cost of the advance not even interest because you can money might be out six months and so 30% at six months is like a 60% interest rate.

15:48 Yeah, quite expensive. I've seen loans to estates properly underwritten where it's maybe 20% of the advance. It's kind of like more a commission advance or a payday type loan where it's not as high as the inheritance advance, but it's also it's not cheap. It's and rightfully so. It's a it's a risky proposition that you just can't walk into Bank of America and get that. Of course, you can't walk into Bank of America and get anything anymore. That's a whole another discussion.

16:16 So therefore, I don't mean to bank on Bank America, but I'm banging on Bank America and Wells Fargo both by the way. Yeah, so I what type of properties do you lend on then? Do you and obviously you lend on residences. Do you also rent on commercial property?

16:31 Absolutely. So I have with residential, commercial, industrial, we lend on and then we also lend in all the other states. So that is that's new that we just opened up all of the states for this.

16:45 So when you say all you mean all 50 states you lended? Correct. Wow. Well, good for you. That's there's the buried headline of the whole thing that you can do. Again, the problem my team is California only, but my podcast is national. So, it's good to know that you're available and that people can reach out to on that.

17:01 I think I know you know I have one answer myself this question, but I want to ask you what are the most common misconceptions that administrators or fiduciaries or attorneys have regarding your product. I think one of them is wow it's expensive and the answer is well it's it there is an expense and if it's cheaper than the alternative then it becomes cheap. So obviously the price is one that I think like all of us have to bat out have boxed out our commissions and fees and prices and I think yours you want few learners that do this stuff. What else are misconceptions about the product that you do or the service you're providing? I think the most common misconception is that these loans are tied to an individual or the estate or the trust. And so when you're dealing with a fiduciary or an appointed trustee that is not a beneficiary of that trust, they're automatically weary because they associate getting a loan tied to them individually. And you can't do that. Well, you can, but you shouldn't be doing that because it's not, you know, you're not part of that trust administration or estate. So, I think that's the most common misconception. Obviously, cost is always a concern because as a fiduciary and a trustee, you have to make sure that this is in a benefit for the trust or estate as a whole. So, really, I help a lot with outweighing the cost versus what they're trying to do. So, if you're dealing with probate, I will try and time it right so we're funding as close as possible to when probate's closing. So, you're not just sitting in sitting and paying on this loan for six months while you're waiting. So, we kind of just try and do all of that to make it a little more costefficient because it's already unfortunate that they have to go this route and can't get traditional financing.

18:46 So, what are some of the legal hurdles or processes? I can imagine that some trusts, some types of probate cases, a minority would require notice of proposed action to do a loan. In general, that I don't think that's required, but I can imagine that it would be. Talk a little bit about what are the cases and then the challenges of getting worked on.

19:07 Yeah. So, anytime there's multiple heirs and you're dealing with an estate, you have to in order to get the loan get notice of proposed action. That is it's required. Title will not close that loan without it.

19:20 So, stop there for a second because I think you're 100% right. Attorneys can say it's not legally required, but if the title company won't insure it, you won't do the loan. They're not get the money. You're not going anywhere. So, it doesn't matter whether you're right or wrong legally. That's the protection that the title companies require and therefore you as a lender are going to need to get in order to get this done.

19:44 Correct. Exactly. And if there's just a sole heir, then an attorney letter stating that individual's sole air or any documentation from probate will suffice for the title company, but when you're dealing with multiple heirs, they will not insure that loan unless you have the notice of proposed action.

20:01 Yes. And again, I've had to explain to attorneys, I appreciate that you're right legally. It doesn't matter if you're right. Now, I will say the flip side. There are times the towel companies are wrong and I've been able to change tile companies and get things underwritten that other people couldn't for various reasons. But I think in this case is a matter of if you're going to lend money on a property and there's multiple heirs. No towel company in my experience is ever going to accept that without all the heirs signing off on it in one form or another. So, you're right about that. Okay. So you do you get I imagine you want either you or the tele companies are going to get proof of the letters of authority full authority or whatever the case is in limit authority does that need court confirmation of a loan do you know here in California or is that something that you need?

20:44 Okay. So if you have limited authority you will have to get a court order approving to take out the loan. Right. So full authority notice proposed action limited the court has to sign off on the loan. So that's essentially the only difference if you have special letters versus full authority.

21:02 Yeah. And again, it's not uncommon that when you have objectors on a case. I literally on a hearing this morning where we have a dispute with a partner of the estate. They have no reason to dispute the administrator of the of the estate. They have no reason to dispute the extension of his timeline. But because they're contesting this one self property, they show up and they object to something. And so I think people have to understand that in this case, the judge was pretty sharp and said, "Well, why you objecting has nothing to do with this. You're really objecting to the sale. Let's keep it there."

21:35 But there are many judges who they hear the word objection and they're just objection. They're just going to say, "We're going to continue this for another 30, 60, 90 days." And so

21:43 You have to be really aware of the case and who your attorney is. And so that's my next question is my exper as a real estate agent like you, I only get paid if the deal closes, right? People come to me and say, "I want to sell this property and I have all kinds of listings or proposed listings." But, you know, there are different people who just never get the paperwork done. They never get the appointment completed. I try to help them. They don't listen to me. They use an attorney they shouldn't use. On the flip side, I have other attorneys that I know they're cracker jack. It's going to happen. Like, I better get myself lined up, you know, ahead of time because they're going to move and get things done. So I imagine you must do business with both, right? You get deals from good customers, but they have bad attorneys. You get qu you get deals from great attorneys happen to have great customers. So I guess my question is how do you is that you know what's your criteria to work with a company at some point some of these attorneys I feel like you know I don't really want to list a property because I'm just I'm never get paid. But more than that I'm going to have an unhappy customer. I'm in my case I'm gonna have buyer agents I'm unhappy and all kinds of problems. How do you kind of vet or do you incoming transactions to you based on who the attorneys are or who the vendors are or who the customers are?

22:51 Yeah. And so that like you said, every situation is unique and there, you know, family dynamics, attorneys, is there multiple attorneys involved? Is there one? My job is to help the beneficiaries navigate this whole process. That's part of what I do. So if they're working with an attorney, we will, you know, set up conference calls, all get on the same page, talk with the attorney, come up with a plan, and then execute it. So a lot of the time the beneficiaries, like I said, the first thing is education on their options. When you're dealing with this, you can either keep the property or sell the property. Those are two options. So once you determine if someone wants to keep it, you do a costbenefit analysis. If they want to sell it, then they set up with a Realtor®. So, it really is every dynamic is different. I've worked with all kinds of attorneys that are familiar with Prop 19, others that are not, and they're just said, "Hey, I'm not that familiar." and we have a property tax consultant who will help with some of the paperwork for Prop 19. So, we have resources to help all different dynamics. And I think that's why it's been pretty peaceful, to be honest, and able to get through some of these more difficult scenarios. Going back a little bit to the loan product type, again, we're lending money most commonly in residential, but also you do commercial, industrial. And as we said in the beginning, the state doesn't have any income or credit history at all. And I know we talked about, but I don't think we tied it with a bow. You're just really going on a percentage of the value of the property, right? There's no other there's no other

24:30 Income flow to analyze or payment history to analyze. The property's worth a million dollars and you'll do a certain percentage of that and that's kind of all you have to go on. Obviously, you need an attorney, you have to have paperwork and title and all that, but there really isn't anything else you can analyze, is there?

24:46 So far as underwriting the deal, it's really just loan to value. There's no it's loan to value and exit strategy are the most important,

24:55 Right? And so what kind of again I'm sure every deal is different but kind of give me a range of kind of the basic maximum and then what's the most common transaction look like?

25:05 Okay. So a lot of the times comfortability is a 65% loan to value. We're not stuck in a box though. You know and for California and Proposition 19 the beneficiary that's keeping the property cannot contribute any of their own funds to buy out the beneficiaries because that triggers a reassessment in the property taxes. So in certain circumstances when there's a lot of heirs to be bought out, your loan to value is kicked over that 65%. But for example, if the beneficiary that's keeping the property has money to contribute, we'll make an exception. I've gone up to a 90% loan to value contingent upon the fact that after the loan closes, the acquiring beneficiary keeping the property will pay down that loan to a more comfortable loan to value. So because it makes sense, you want to help preserve that tax base, but they can't contribute their own funds. So that's just one example of this. You have to analyze the scenario because in that in that case, it makes sense to do that and make that exception. So 65 is pretty comfortable.

26:07 That was now that was a nugget, but I you do this really well, but it's a new insight for me. So you can fund it at 90%, but let's imagine they have 25% in cash. Cash see some sort of bank account.

26:20 They can't do that before you fund because that will trigger the reassessment that we're trying to avoid. So they commit to once you close the loan and now it's their sole property and they get the benefit of the of the assessment passing from decedent to them, they agree to pay down the mortgage to 65 or 70% of whatever the number is out of their own funds after you've closed your loan.

26:44 Yes. Now, do you hold that money in some sort of reserve account or some sort of a tied up account or is it just they're you're going on credit, you see the money there and you're trusting them for that?

26:53 Yeah, it that is the trust basis. So, they we usually require to see the bank statement that they haven't. And then from there, we you know, we've built pretty close relationships with these clients. So, we're going off of, you know, complete trust factor that once the loan closes, they're going to pay it down. I would imagine that knowing who the attorney is would also help you because they're going to know trigger you if there's a problem or not bring you into a deal where there's a problem because they value your relationship. I know that's with me that I've had attorneys say, "Hey, you be careful here. These people are just really not, you know, up and up." And I know that going in I can make I can make a certain assessment make. So you must kind of look at who the attorney is on the case. I think that has to play into the underwriting some degree.

27:39 Absolutely. Because if, you know, someone just called in and said they wanted a 90% loan to value, they're going to pay me back. I'd probably be a little more weary than if it's the attorney that spends over this client knows the relationship, has a relationship with them, they can also confirm these facts. And so it's, you know, a little bit different, but again, we've made these exceptions quite a bit and we've never had any issues. Because a lot of the times the beneficiaries, the whole reason of doing it is to preserve the tax base. So they their heart and everything is in it. They want to keep that property. So when it comes to keeping that property, they're going to do whatever it takes if that's within their means.

28:20 You know, on one hand, I would have said a few months ago that, you know, more and more lenders are looking to broaden out because the mortgage industry, not your part, but the broader regular mortgage industry, you has been under so much pressure the last few years with the declined sales and the rise in rates reducing refinances. Now all of a sudden rates drop and they're all busy again. You can't get a hold of any of them. But I would think that in the long run this market that you're in this particular niche is expanding as there's more older people as California gets more tight on reassessments. It would seem to me that you're in a niche of the business that's growing pretty rapidly and the limiting factor more is people knowing that you're an option even to talk about to compete for the business. Is that a fair assessment?

29:00 Absolutely. This I've been doing this since 2018. Wow. And it has every year just increased in volume business because like you said a lot, you know, this is it's a secure. There are people that pass all the time and then you either have to sell or keep a property and then when you throw, you know, property taxes and buying out beneficiaries in there, they really don't have another option. So it's a pretty it's we're not market sensitive. So right our rates are what they are. So it no matter what we don't fluctuate. So it is what it is. You need a trust loan, you need an estate loan or not.

29:42 So I think it's been very secure type lending. It also there's a lot that goes into it. You know with having the knowledge to even help the attorneys like hey we're at this point let's do it here. Let's fund this loan here. So I think that's the most thing like key is being able to communicate with these attorneys very clearly on what we're doing and then also abide by whatever they need.

30:07 Yeah. Yeah. Again, I think when you get down to pricing in a case like yours, I also know it's hard to raise money. You know, I don't know if it's your job, but some of your organization has to get investors who will want to give money and they're only getting 10.9 for these very risky loans that most people don't even know exist. And so, it's not to say it's high priced, it's easy, unless you're the one raising the money, in which case it's hard to get enough people to do that. And I would think this market's growing, steadily. So, kind of moving as kind of move towards wrap up. Talk a little bit about your business side, you know, take off the lender part and serveing attorneys and put on the tennis businessoman hat. What if anything, I appreciate being on my podcast. I know I saw you on one of my favorite is Sam Price from program and superstar. I saw you on there. I thought you killed it. I said I got to get this guy on my podcast. I heard you. So besides that, which you've been available, thank you so much. What if any business development do you do? Is it just merely you've been doing this now and people have reputation and come to you on that or do you actually do business development besides the podcast or is this a regular thing you're doing regularly? So on the business side, I have been for quite some time on a 100% referral basis, but they I'm realizing how every time I get a call from a family and they I explain everything to them. They say, you know, some of them are in tears and they say, "Thank you for being able to articulate and explain this and help me navigate this process." Whether they keep the property or not, someone needs to help them. So, that has always been a key part of with building this business because individuals and attorneys want someone who's going to help them determine what they want to do. Otherwise, they're just going to sit there and do nothing because they don't have enough information. So we've slowly also been building out, like I said, to other states because it's important. So, education is key. So I right now we're really trying to just

32:09 Educate as much as we can that these loans exist. There are options. And if I'm not the best fit, I may have someone else who is. So it's really important just to let individuals know what's here and available to them.

32:24 Well, I think you did a good job today. I thought you did a great job on Sam's podcast as well. And so work educating the marketplace and educating me. And I think like I said this is kind of thing where just my knowledge of how to how those options are available is worth it for me. Hopefully people watch today also as much as I did. So Tennis on behalf of well real quick I'm supposed to get a hold of you. Here's your contact info. You have a web page true estateloans.com that has your picture and you're looking all professional. And then we have your contact info with your phone number and email. Of course if somebody has difficulty getting in touch with you, please reach out to me. I'd be more glad to make the introduction. Thanks so much for the call today. I really appreciate it, Tennis.

33:04 Thanks for having me, Bill. It was wonderful. And then for the rest of you, this is Probate Weekly. We get together every week and interview most commonly probate attorneys, but also vendors who can help us be more effective with our clients and building our businesses, working with attorneys, working with customers. If I can help anyway, please reach out at Billgross Probate. And as always, make today your best day ever. Thanks so much.