How to Find the Right Probate Attorney, with Ryan Darling

0:00 Steward. So, as a real estate broker in the private space, I often have families that call me and need to find an attorney or need a problem solved, which they could file a probate on their own, which is usually not the right answer, or find an attorney, but the key is finding the right attorney. And I'm really lucky to have somebody here who I've had a chance to meet and talk to in the past, and I think has some great insight on this issue. Ryan Darling of Darling Law in Riverside, California. Thanks for being on the program today.

0:27 Oh, thank you for having me. So, you know, we talked a little bit, and I think the challenge for most people is not just finding an attorney to do something, it's finding the right one for their case that's going to handle their, in the case of probate, their probate filing. So, talk a little bit about how do you try to fill that that niche for people call and need efficient, productive probate administration done?

0:49 I think it's important for people when they are looking for an attorney that they find an attorney who specializes in a certain area of law. you know, it's kind of like if you have a heart issue, you're just not going to go see a regular doctor, you're going to go see a cardiologist. I think the same thing goes when we're talking about probate. I know a lot of fellow attorneys like to joke about probate attorneys just filling the blanks for a living, and they're not real lawyers. but this area of law that we do is very technical. it's very niche, as I believe. and I think a lot of judges say that, too. you know, if you don't hire an attorney that has any experience in dealing with probate, they're going to turn what could have been a 9-month long process into maybe a year two or three-year long process because they don't understand the filings or the notices or the I&As that need to be filed. So, I think it's real important for people when they're looking [snorts] for a probate attorney that they go with somebody who actually has experience doing this area of law.

1:49 You know, we spoke the day, and just for the listeners, a statistic I say regularly, which is when I talk to customers who've selected an attorney, 90% are in with them for the first 90 days. And then day 91 and on, 9% hate the attorney. And the reason why is that it all sounds good, it but the process is you know, the goal is the process. And you got to get it done. And so it's not just about signing a contract and writing a check. It really is about the details of the paperwork, the phone calls, the follow-up, the procedures. And I used to go to probate court every day and I would see great attorneys in Armani suits, $3,000 suits from probably prestigious law firms and like in prestigious law schools. And they didn't know the basics of a probate process and the judge would almost admonish them. Versus the people who do it every day knew the process. And so let's talk about some of those details. One of the most important decisions I think made on a file is whether a probate case gives the executor administrator full authority or limited authority. Talk a little bit about the advantages of both I guess or certainly advantages of full authority versus the comparative advantage of a limited authority. Talk about those decisions and how you advise clients in those cases.

2:58 So I always recommend we get full authority. I've actually never done a probate where we ask for limited authority. I think it's a waste of time. Often times people [snorts] are faced with the decision of well, I can get full authority meaning I don't need to get court approval to sell the home or I could get limited authority. Now, you Normally we may have to get a bond in order for the administrator to act in their capacity. And often times they may have bad credit or they may not have any assets and so the bond company kind of gets nervous about giving them a bond and so they'll set these bond premiums that could be a thousand or two thousand dollars and the clients will say, "Well, hey, I don't want to pay that. So let me just get limited authority." Well, when you get limited authority, now we've got to get the court involved when we sell the property. The attorney then can ask for extraordinary fees on the back end as where if we just maybe talked the bond company and say, "Hey listen, I understand that this client may have poor credit, but me as the attorney is willing to sign a joint control agreement with the client. So, we set up this joint account. That way we don't have to get limited authority, or if we do get limited authority, we have this joint control account. So, I again, I don't I don't ever recommend full authority. It's just To me, it's just a pain. Let's get full authority, and let's get heirs to sign bond waivers.

4:22 Let's get a higher bond, maybe with that joint control account. And it just makes the whole process of selling the home, especially for you as a realtor, it makes that process so much simpler.

4:34 So, let's break it down for people who don't know, cuz most people who watch this are real estate agents, or people in the business, investors. when you say court approval, I literally have a listing right now. When I got it, I contacted the attorney. I said, "Okay, well, this property's been on the market before I got it, and now they're coming to me, and it has limited authority." I said, "Have you filed the publication of the intent to sell?" No. Well, the fact is that if you write a contract, accept it, but you've not published properly, the court won't approve it, because they want to see that the whole world's had chance to see the property, and one of the steps is publication. In addition to that, if it if you do the process correctly and get to court, the court I asked the attorney, "Well, have you done the inventory and appraisal report?" I think it's a DE-160. "Have you ordered it yet?" No. "We wait until we have contract." But, the problem is that under a full authority, the court won't approve a case most of the time, with our exceptions. I'm saying with some exceptions, but generally won't, unless it's 90% of the appraisal they receive. Well, they don't have the appraisal, they don't know what the number is, they're going to decline your case. So, you're talking about spending on a on a publication three, four hundred dollars maybe, or more. You're talking about on the appraisal 800 bucks, 1,000 bucks, or more, but more importantly, you can't do anything till you have those items in your pocket. And so many times a client's come to me frazzled that they can't sell the house because the attorney didn't know. And meanwhile, they didn't need limited authority. So to go back to what Ryan said, you talked about bond waivers.

6:05 When are bond waivers available and when are they not? And I know you can ask for them, the judge has to accept it, but when are they typically granted and what are some things that might not be bondable or might not be waiverable?

6:17 So normally if we have a will and a if we have a will that's properly drafted, there's going to be a clause in there that says that bond is waived. And you know, the purpose of the bond is so that the court-appointed administrator or the executor doesn't sell the home and then take the money and disappear to another country and now all the heirs are left with nothing. So, it's really an insurance policy to protect the heirs' potential inheritance. you know, often times if there's no will, we'll and maybe there's two kids and the two kids trust each other, we may get both of those kids to sign a bond waiver, which is basically telling the court, "Listen, I understand that my sister or my brother is supposed to get a bond, but I trust them and I'm willing to waive this bond requirement and the court won't require that person to get that bond and spend the money for that that bond, which you've got to renew that bond premium every year." Every court is different. I've seen some courts say, you know, "I don't care that there's been bond waivers. I'm still going to require for you to get a bond because maybe there's some potential creditors or we just don't know what could be out there." Every department is different in every county, too. You could go into one judge in maybe San Bernardino County who may set a full bond and you may go talk to another judge in a different courtroom who may set a minimum bond.

7:33 [clears throat] so, it really just depends on where you are and what county you're in, but I always encourage bond waivers just to save the family members money. But often times if we're dealing with a contentious family, you know they're not going to sign a bond waiver. So, let's just go ahead and request full bond from the court. Again, if the bond company is hesitant about issuing that bond, then we'll just work on getting a joint control account where I'm monitoring all checks that are written from the estate account. I have to sign off on those, and we make sure that everybody's protected.

8:08 And to go back though to the judge discretion, I've been in court enough I used to go every day where I would see the same judge approve or not approve, and I found that they'd be more likely to approve bond waivers if there was an attorney versus say somebody doing it on their own. Why? Cuz they know the attorney's not getting paid till the end, so there's another reason to believe that this is legitimate, right? The attorney's got to keep an eye on the money cuz they when they want to get their fee. But, also I see that the attorneys often times will anticipate the questions from the judge. For example, you know, are there any creditors known at this point? And you know, when a when a individual says, "Well, I don't even know what you're talking about. We haven't started yet. We don't know." The judge should be probably concerned. Maybe there's a creditor lurking versus an attorney might say, "We ran a credit report, and we're not aware of any. We don't see any statements. You know, we've already inventoried what we have at the house. We're not aware of any." The judge can be a little more comfortable. And this is what you're paying for is I think the reputation and the support from the attorney. So, talk a little bit about how that plays into it. I'm sure that while you have some courts and judges that you know better than others, in those courts I would imagine you are particularly valuable.

9:15 Yeah, you know, you were talking about attorneys that they're great for the first 90 days, and then they're terrible afterwards. it's usually because within that first 60 to 90 days is when we have that first hearing, and then once they get appointed in charge, they kind of drop the ball.

9:29 Yes. I like to use like a baseball analogy where you know, we haven't even get to first base yet until we get somebody appointed. Well, just be just because we get somebody appointed doesn't mean we're done. We've got to get some notices filed. We've got We've got to get the I&A done. And I see a lot of attorneys drop the ball on that. What's What's great about probate is that if you know what you're doing, like a good probate attorney will know this, is that the court publishes probate notes prior to your hearing. Where they basically say, "Hey, these are the deficiencies in your filings. We're going to give you an opportunity to clear these notes prior to your hearing. So that when we do have that hearing, the judge will approve your petition and we don't have to continue it another 60 or 90 days." What's shocking to me is that despite the fact that the court publishes these notes, I'm in court all the time where I see attorneys [clears throat] saying, "your honor, I didn't get a chance to clear these notes." and I just I don't I can't fathom that. So, especially here in Riverside, they give you a full 30 days. Probate notes typically come out 30 days prior to your hearing. If you're not clearing those notes prior to the hearing, it's probably because you've dropped the ball. I know a lot of probate attorneys have a staff that works with them, and so maybe the first time the attorney is seeing the file is the morning of the hearing, and they haven't really had their fingers on everything. that's not the way that I practice law. I'm the only person who handles our probate files. The majority of our business is is is trust, but we also do probate. And all the filings, all the court appearances, all the phone calls, all the emails for our probate clients goes directly through me.

11:04 That way I know where we are at all times in a probate matter, and I don't have to worry about things not getting properly filed or us delaying closing a state.

11:14 And it's just I mean, for anybody who's deciding who to hire as an attorney, go to play court and watch. You'll see attorneys who look the part. They probably are great attorneys. They may have been law review at Harvard. But if they don't know that there's probate notes system, and in Riverside has a system, and I want to brag a little bit. LA County The only thing I think we have better than any other place is our probate note system is really good.

11:37 Yeah. We don't have this attorneys who service it aren't as up-to-date as Riverside, but you know, they have a big volume, whatever. But it's a great system and when attorney the judge says, I see note four and the attorney goes, I'm not sure what you're talking about.

11:51 Right. why are you getting paid? How do you pass the bar? How do you hear today but practicing law? To me, it just seems like malpractice if you don't know there's a probate note system and don't somehow address it. Doesn't mean you can clear them all. Doesn't mean mistakes don't happen. Doesn't mean there's not technical glitches. But come on, we're playing a game here. Let's at least get a bat and a ball and get on the on the field somehow.

12:11 Yeah, especially like when we have probates in San Bernardino County. You know, if you don't clear your notes at the time of your hearing in San Bernardino County, you know, a lot of people think, well, we just didn't clear the notes, we'll get a hearing in a couple weeks. No, that's not how it works. You go back to the end of the line and in San Bernardino, you may not get another hearing for three or four months.

12:30 Right. Which means we've got to wait three or four months just to sell the home and then the family members get upset and then the mortgage hasn't been paid because the bank account's been frozen. And I see attorneys all the time who will say, you know, your honor, I saw the notes, but I filed a supplement yesterday.

12:45 Right. attorney Any good attorney knows that you need to file your paperwork probably five days prior to the hearing so that the court staff and the judge has an opportunity to review the paperwork.

12:55 Right. but, you know, attorneys don't care. I just I really and I don't understand why attorneys do this because again, you know, if I'm being honest, we don't get paid until the close probate. So, why wouldn't you work incredibly hard to do everything you possibly can to prevent these delays from happening?

13:14 That's why I push attorneys and why some of them find me hard to work with because I don't get paid until we sell the house. Attorneys don't get paid for like another six months. Why is attorney not saying, thank you for pushing my staff. Thank you for pushing me cuz I want to get paid, too. I wonder sometimes how all that works. Now, I it's a business and I guess it's not my place to get into that, but I do I will say that you can tell the difference with people who are on this as a business and not. To go back to another piece you talked about that relates to the bondability that the bonding company some will many times make exceptions on binding somebody as you mentioned if the attorney is joint signing on the bank account. Now, what happens is I can always tell the non-professional probate attorneys. They'll say to the customer, "Oh, go out and get a you know, try We're approved. We have letters. Go out and get a bank account at Wells Fargo." And what always happens is they go to Wells Fargo, they come back, Wells Fargo said I need letters, they go back to Wells Fargo, Wells Fargo says I need a stamped copy, they go back to Wells Fargo, "Oh, you need a wet signature stamp directly from the court."

14:15 Right. The customer's pissed, it's months have gone by, we're trying to sell the property. Talk a little bit about the process you use to help expedite both the bank account as well as getting the bond approved.

14:26 Well, on getting the bond approved, you know, if we have to do a joint control agreement, that's fine. I have no problem doing that. The bond company typically is going to want payment up front before they even issue the bond and that could be two three thousand dollars sometimes and family members

14:41 [snorts and clears throat] usually don't have that money available to them. The decedent's bank accounts are still frozen. So, what I do to help facilitate this is I'll just pay the bond premium. I'll advance the costs on the bond premium cuz I know that eventually when the home gets sold gets sold, I'm going to get reimbursed. So, that speeds along that process. I work with a specific bank. I work with Chino Commercial Bank for all of my joint control accounts because they know what they're doing and I don't have to worry about there being a delay in opening the account. You know, for my clients, I understand that they need certified copies from the court to open up those bank accounts. They're also going to need an EIN number from the IRS for the estate which I get for them. So, I try to do as much as I possibly can for my clients so that all they really need to do is just walk into the bank and I've given them all the documents that they need and they don't run into any delays. You know, the average layperson isn't going to know what an EIN is or they're not going to understand the difference between a photocopy and a certified copy. So, I feel that if you're a good probate attorney, you're making your clients' life and job a lot easier by taking care of a lot of the heavy lifting for them.

15:50 And just knowing a vendor who will do it in Chino [clears throat] Commerce Bank's case online, fast, efficiently, it just moves the process forward. As professionals, people expect us to know the right vendors and the wrong vendors. You know, I know people go online and shop for a bond and for $2,000 bond, they might save 150 bucks, but it doesn't get issued for an extra three or four weeks because of all the paperwork and her or ever. And that's just money, right? The a house that sits, a $500,000 house sitting empty, if nobody's living in it enjoying the rental value of it was just empty. Not only is it costing the estate probably three, four, five thousand dollars a month in lost earnings and costs, you run the risk of a squatter today. And so, time is real money.

16:35 Yeah, I actually had that happen [snorts] a client's a sister passed away and it's they had [clears throat] squatters move into the property right away. They moved in within a week of her passing away and we got them appointed as the administrator as quickly as we could, but they then had to start an unlawful detainer process to have all these squatters removed from the property.

16:55 Right. It is amazing what's going on here in Southern California. And frankly, I have a couple I just had to walk away from listings because once the squatters get in deep, once they're there for more than 30 days, it is almost impossible, if they know what they're doing, between the legal system and they'll they'll falsify a will, they'll falsify I've had deeds falsified, wills falsified, which means you got to court to get them out and that's a long expensive process that it's just it's just amazing what goes on. So, there's nothing good that happens. So, now we've talked about a lot of differences in your service just for the initial filing phase. and then so at some point, you get approved. One of the things I find happens a lot is people will get the hearing and the judge in LA County say, "Okay, you're approved." And there's a he'll speak to the to the administrator and he'll give them key data points to put into a memo. And you even go online and print out that memo, "Oh, I'm approved and here's the inventory appraiser's reports can be done by this probate referee." But you don't have the letters yet. Now, in San Bernardino, as I understand it, they'll print out the form and have them just sign it while you're there in some cases. In LA, not. You're not getting that until you've submitted the form and then the judge will review it and if it's all correct, get done. But that can take I've seen that take months. I've had

18:11 Oh, yeah. Yeah. I've seen attorneys submit the report before the hearing, which in LA County they disregard. Right. say, "Oh, I've been waiting for the judge for 4 weeks." No, you're not waiting for a judge for 4 weeks. It means something's wrong. So, talk a bit about how important it is to get those letters out right after you have the hearing.

18:25 I think it's important that you hire a probate attorney that understands the ins and out of each court. Like here in Riverside wants you to file the letters and the orders prior to your hearing. If you don't file the letters and the orders prior to the hearing, the court won't approve it and then they're just going to continue the hearing out another 45 days. LA County is the exact opposite. In LA County, they want you to submit those things after the hearing. but even though you submit it after the hearing, it could take three or four weeks just to get the certified copies back from the court. so, you know, I wish every county was the same. you know, I'm doing stuff up in

19:06 Be careful. I know. [laughter] I'm doing stuff up in Northern California right now and stuff in San Diego and Orange County and every county is different even from the initial filings. and I just think it's important that you hire somebody that understands the differences because if they don't, then that matter's just going to get continued.

19:25 Yeah. Yeah. And so along the way you have different procedures and you sell the property. [clears throat] often times I tell you know customers say well you know when do I get paid? And you know I can't give legal advice, I can give business advice which is well the money's going to your state account. You need to talk to attorney about what that means if you have joint signature or you're able to sign on your own. You know you can reimburse it some expenses perhaps, but as far as distributing it, talk a little bit about the timing. When does a administrator, executor, or heir, when do they get their share of the money with their selling of property through a probate? I mean again it typically depends on what county you're in. you know just because you get appointed in charge and you sell the house right away doesn't mean you get to distribute those funds automatically. Once somebody's appointed in charge, there's a statutory period of 4 months for potential creditors to come forward. At the end of those 4 months, if we've gotten the house sold, we filed some tax returns, we can go ahead and file that petition to close the estate. Now, when you file that petition to close the estate, you're going to be given a hearing. Again, every county's different. So I filed a motion to close an estate in LA County yesterday and our hearing's set for June 30th. I filed one in Orange County last week and our hearing isn't till the end of September. So you know some heirs are in one probate county are going to get their inheritance within probably 45 to 60 days. In Orange County, they're going to wait another 5 months and unfortunately there's nothing I can really do about that. That's just how the probate system works in different counties.

20:57 I will say Orange County they're very polite. They're very nice down there. [laughter] the last time I was there it was funny for a sale. we walked in the hearing room and the judge like walks in and hi everybody, how are guys doing? Where are you from? And start I mean it was almost like it was a game show host kind of introducing himself to the crowd. Where in LA it's it's like you're the prisoners and you don't say a word, you don't cross the line. It's a whole different vibe. So every county is is

21:23 Yeah, and every county is different, you know, in Riverside County there's probably going to be 15 to maybe 20 cases on calendar a day. San Bernardino County you can have maybe 10 to 15. When we start getting into LA County, that judge may have 40 to 50 cases on calendar that they need to pump through and maybe an hour and a half. So they're not in the best of moods sometimes. They don't want to hear the attorney talk, they don't want explanations because they have to hurry up and get through their calendar. That's why it's really important that the attorney clears all of those notes prior to that hearing, so that when they do call the calendar, they just run through the list of all the pre-approved, and if you're on that list, great. You don't need to stick around for another hour waiting for your case to be called. You knew that you cleared all those hurdles and you're you're good to go to the next step.

22:11 In LA County, you should be pre-approved unless something went wrong. And I feel like the customer should be able to go say to the attorney, why are we not pre-approved? Because

22:19 Right. there's no [clears throat] reason. You the you submit the things they the judge's probate attorney issues notes and tells you what you're missing. You're missing A, B, C, D, and E. You can submit A, B, C, D, and E. And then the probate judge will the attorney for the judge will theoretically clear those items or satisfy those items, and then they'll have refer for approval on the calendar. And like you said, you just show up and they say the following ones have been approved unless there's an objection and you're good to go. And oftentimes when I see a hearing still scheduled, I think somebody didn't do their job, and I can look at the notes and see what the problem was. And it's it you know what's interesting? The most common thing that I see is notice.

22:59 Notice, yeah. for sure of pro per or people doing it on their own, But even attorneys I still find why would you not file the notice and get that cleared? Why would you allow that ever have a hearing when notice wasn't filed?

23:11 Yeah, I've never understood that especially with filing proof of publications or maybe an attorney files the publication in the wrong newspaper. You know, there are circumstances where we see that we have probate notes to clear. We'll prepare supplement, send it to the client for them to sign it, but they don't get it back to us till a day or two before the hearing. Well, that's not going to give us ample time to [snorts] have it filed for the judge to review and then and then we're going to get that matter continued. But yeah, San Bernardino County, Orange County, LA County, Riverside County. They have these probate examiners who are reviewing your paperwork and they're giving you that chance to clear those notes. Now, that is a huge deal for us to as attorneys so we can clear our matters. But the pro per who's trying to do this on their own, they don't understand probate notes and I can't tell you how many courtrooms I've sat in where the judge has said, "Have you looked at the probate notes?" And the and the pro per says, "I don't know what that is." So, you know, as a pro per, could you do this on your own? You absolutely could. It's just not something that I recommend because you don't know all of the technical stuff and you're going to wind up having your matters continued over and over again where it'd be much better for you to just hire an attorney who knows what they're doing. It's kind of like with you with selling a home. Could you sell your house on your own? You absolutely could, but there's a reason why we hire real estate agents to help us through that process.

24:36 Right. Yeah, definitely. So, let's talk about the role of real estate agents in your practice. It's different everywhere. I know that there are attorneys who actively work with realtors to get referrals. Of course, that business then goes back to those realtors. There are other ones who are more working with consumers directly. Obviously, consumers know real agents. Certainly, if it's a full authority case, it's pretty easy. on a limited authority, you really need a specialist. Talk a bit about realtors that work with you effectively. Like, what are some things What are one or two things that obviously, you don't want the real estate agent to get in the way. You don't want them to confuse your customer, but I'm sure you appreciate some help along the way. What are one or two things that the best realtors you've worked with have done to help you and or help your clients?

25:20 I think realtors that actually understand the probate process, that hey, once [snorts] we accept an offer, we have to file that notice of proposed action or that NOPA, and it gives the heirs 15 days to object, right? I once I once handled a probate where realtor calls me up and says, "Hey, I just took a listing. Can you send me the NOPA?" And I said, "Well, you haven't even accepted an offer yet, so there is no NOPA." so, somebody who understands, "Hey, I know that my escrow and title company is going to need a copy a certified copy of the letter, so let me get those from the client or from the attorney right away. That way, I'm not getting an email from the escrow company the day before closing saying, 'Hey, we need this.'" So, I can't tell you how many escrow and title companies I hear from the day before, and it drives me up the wall. but, you know, realtors that understand that, "Hey, we may need to work with an estate sale company who's going to help us get rid of all of Mom and Dad's stuff." They have a trash hauling company who's going to help the family members get rid of all the stuff that's left over. So, a good real estate agent that understands the probate process is going to have all of these other people that they work with to help their clients sell this property quickly and not have them put too much work in it. You know, it's one thing if I'm selling my own home, you know, I'm boxing up things. I'm moving things. It's different when I have a full-time job.

26:43 I've got my son that I need to take care of. I've got my own house to take care of. And then now I've got to try to clean up Mom and Dad's house who's got 40, 50 years of junk stored in the garage. where if I have a real estate agent who can say to my client, "Hey, I work with these people." It makes my job so much easier.

27:01 Right. So that you know, just helping with making sure they work with the real estate and the non-legal stuff it help move the process again move the process forward and more quickly. One of the challenges on inherited property is often the executor administrator, you know, who doesn't live in the property, may not even live in the state and there's a whole bunch of stuff in the house and how you get rid of it. these days that has gotten very costly. You know, a couple years ago we'd use a junk service it was like a thousand two thousand dollars. Now I've gotten quotes six thousand thirteen thousand dollars. It's like real money that can sometimes cause some cash flow problems and so I've been negotiating more of my transactions in probate where the buyer accepts it as is and if especially if it's a fixer and they're a contractor, let them haul the trash out. They were they're going to do it anyhow. They're going to pull the cabinets out. They're going to pull out the flooring anyhow. Let them haul everything out.

27:51 Yeah, it's it can it can get real expensive. you know, estate sale companies are typically going to charge you 40%. but then again, do you want to spend the next six weekends holding garage sales for the family to make a couple of thousand dollars? but those trash hauling companies very easily could charge you five to eight thousand dollars. and the family members may not have money to pay for that.

28:15 Right. and it gets tricky sometimes. If you get an estate sale that covers your trash out costs, you've you really hit a home run. Unless you're talking about Beverly Hills or high-end properties with collectibles and such. If we can even just cover the trash I tell you've done well. You know, or let's just let the buyer deal with it and they may want some of the stuff. They may want some of the furniture. the piano the classic is the piano. Well, it's a it's a really nice piano. My grandma used to play on it. Yeah, well, it cost you more to get rid of it than it's worth. I'm sorry to say.

28:43 And like if you want it so bad, you come and get it. And then people say, "Well, I don't know how to get it or where am I going to put it? You know, a lot of times people think, oh, my kids are going to want all my stuff when I pass away and

28:54 Right. that's not the case, right? We all have our own stuff. There's no more room in the house for mom and dad's stuff and we got to hire a company to get rid of it all.

29:03 Yeah, and the classic with a piano, I've had this happen several times, is moving out pianos is no easy feat. And I've had sole cases where like brick work in front of the house was chipped as a result of moving out the piano because it's heavy, it's big. They can't be cautious. They're not They're not hiring a piano mover who works with retail. So, now you got to go back to the buyer and say, you know, repair it, do you make a cut? It Some of these things are just If you can get the buyer to accept everything, I'm just saying that's by far these days in 2026, that's the big victory that I see on this stuff. So, you know, interesting about probate is I've worked with several companies that are attempting to be want to become the like the TurboTax of probate or the QuickBooks of probate where there's like an online service that has more of a national profile, high volume, theoretically as a result, good service, in practice, not. And that's not I don't I don't see that movement. I don't see the consolidation in probate that I see in so many other industries and even legal. I see more and more consolidation of drunk driving defenses and personal injury cases. You see kind of less attorneys, but bigger offices and bigger operations. Why do you think it is in probate that still is Ryan Darling in Riverside, this guy in Orange County, this guy in LA. Why is Why do you think it is still so segregated and individual?

30:23 I'd probably say because it's not as glamorous as the big-time attorneys, right? Oh, come on, Ryan. You didn't [laughter] Look at you. Oh, no, my fellow attorney friends love to make fun of the area of law that I do cuz it's not as Right. Like, I don't do the litigation part, either. I'm not taking depositions. I'm not I'm not going into trial. I'm not doing all this glamorous stuff like you see on TV.

30:46 Mhm. you know, and it's it's a difficult situation with dealing with a family member that's passed away. And so, you know, you need to have somebody to talk to. I'm not only an attorney, I feel like I'm a therapist sometimes when I when I'm talking with families and trying to resolve their issues, fighting over simple things like who gets mom's tea set. so, I think clients want to have that attorney to talk to. I see a lot of attorneys that take on too many cases. They do all kinds of different areas of law, so how much do they really know about probate? And those are the attorneys who aren't clearing their notes and getting things continued.

31:26 Right. And so, I it just here in Riverside, you know, as big as a city we are, we're still a small town, I think. And I think people just enjoy going with those smaller law firms where they know that if they have a question, they'll call and get the attorney. Whereas, if they call a major law firm, they're going to talk to a paralegal and the attorney's really never going to talk to them. And I don't think people like that.

31:47 I think you're right. I think it really gets down to people want to talk to an attorney. This is an area of the world or area of business that we know in a world of automation, the more there is, the more they want to talk to an attorney about a probate because it's nervous, it's difficult, it's challenging, it's all those things. there are the there are people who want to do it all themselves. Obviously, there's always a minority that are do-it-yourselfers, but I think as a general rule, you're correct. One [clears throat] last piece, if I can. so, I know you don't do litigation, but I know there's times you're driving down the freeway and the freeway's closed, you have to get off. And a probate, you know, you think you're doing a uncontested probate and all of a sudden you find out it's not. There's an objector, there's a this, there's a that. Next thing you know, you're in litigation. So, talk a bit about what are the things that seem to pop up that maybe surprise you or surprise your client that people can look out for that takes the standard probate into a litigated situation.

32:41 I would say, you know, often times people will argue over who's going to be in charge, right? Brother and sister hated each other as teenagers. Sister's upset because brother got a brand new car when he turned 16 and she got the used car and they've held on to that anger for the last 30 years. you know, you'd be really surprised what siblings are willing to fight over in their 40s and 50s. I think one of the reasons why people get into these family members start arguing is there isn't enough transparency.

33:10 Mhm. family members aren't being honest about what's in the bank accounts. Hey, I've asked for these bank statements, why haven't you given them to me? Often times the person in charge may get drunk off of authority. and they just think that they can do whatever they want and they're not factoring in the emotional side of things on, hey, this is the family home that we grew up in.

33:31 Right. you know, but Yeah. the litigation is just getting out of hand, I think, in probate and people don't realize like you're going to wind up spending all of your inheritance paying these litigation attorneys to litigate this stuff out.

33:46 Yeah. Let's just try to figure out some type of settlement and get this estate closed. I just I think as a general just as a society in general people have just gotten more greedy and, you know, I've seen and we're not talking about millions of dollars, by the way, breaking up families. I've seen families not talk to one another over 10 grand. and it's it's really just unfortunate.

34:09 I see the same thing and I see there's a minority of bad apples in every business including attorneys where they almost feast on this Oh, yeah. disruption. I have a case right now where, you know, there's some bad blood and we're just trying to get personal property out of the out of the house so that we can sell the house. It's a house with incredible [snorts] amount of personal property in it and we have an estate sale company that's trying to move it out so they can then sell everything. And the attorney is just avoiding, I think, making any resolution that everybody can agree to. He wants his client to be in there and she's been abusive to the occupants. And it's like, you know, it's obvious to me, I'm saying this to the other party, this attorney, he's glad to see this thing fight forever cuz he gets paid by the hour, I guess.

34:51 Exactly. Yep. He's [clears throat] not a probate attorney. He's a He's been hired as a litigator and so he's going to litigate and Yep. people do so it's challenging. I think you have to do your best to avoid that and obviously speed is part of it. Obviously going from this the shorter your probate is in action, the less ammunition you give the opposing party, the less time you give them to post things. And efficiency. So, what are things that you see that obviously communication is part of it? is there anything else you recommend to either yourself as an attorney and or administrators or executors to help avoid taking what could be a standard probate with some siblings into a full-fledged litigation situation?

35:28 Sometimes you have to take the emotions out of it, which is I know it's difficult for people. you just have to think big picture and not fight over little things. you know, I'm working on I just got a brand new case where it looks like there may be a potential argument over somebody be being appointed in charge. and you just got two siblings that just don't like each other. And that's the hard part is to say, "Hey, maybe we take that the loss on this, but then we, you know, in the grand scheme of things, we're going to we're going to win the war. We may lose a battle, [snorts] but you know, your parents didn't work their whole lives and accumulate all of these assets and leave them to you so that you guys cannot talk to one another anymore, right? I just I think some people, if their mom and dad came back, the mom and dad would really be upset with what happened to their family cuz they were broken apart by money.

36:25 If you could hire them to come in as a [laughter] mediator, that'd be great. Mom said will you cut out already you two? Yeah, unfortunately that's not an option. Well, look we've got a little over time. I appreciate you giving us such depth and I think really today we learned a lot of details. I think too often we think about the big picture and the home runs and fancy marketing, but from where I sit the attorneys who distinguish themselves it's the little details. It's their staff and their procedures, their policies, the way they handle things and Ryan you really kind of laid out to us a number of great strategies and procedures obviously have a high standard for how you do things. I really appreciate your time.

36:58 Oh, thanks. If you want more information, darlinglawoffices.com is a website. darlinglawoffices.com. Down below is a phone number if you want to call in or the email. If you're listening to us on audio, you can reach out to me. I'd be glad to forward you and make that introduction. Ryan, thank you again so much for being on and teaching us I think about the importance of the basic fundamentals of good procedures, processes, good customer service. I really appreciate your time today.

37:21 Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. And for the rest of you, this is Probate Weekly. We get together every week usually with a probate attorney. we don't always get such good insight on the details like we did today. I thought I learned a lot. I hope you did as well. I'd love to get your comments. Please like or subscribe if appropriate. If your comments are negative, let me know as well. And you can reach out at Bill Gross Probate if I can help in any way. As always, remember today to make today your best day ever. Thanks so much.