What Happens If You Get Estate Planning Wrong, with Attorney Stefan O'Grady

0:02 If you follow my coaching as real estate agent at all, you know that in order to be a more successful real estate broker in probate, I emphasize more time on learning the business and how we can be valuable to our customers, not necessarily becoming attorneys, but learning to be aware of the issues to bring their customers' attention and to refer them to effective counsel. And here's a perfect case in point. I had met this attorney, Stefan O'Grady, on a case years ago. And by going through LinkedIn and kind of reading into different groups to learn, realized he wrote a great article, got my attention. I reached out to his team and asked him if he could talk today about an issue that really affects us as realtors regularly, capacity, and the potential of getting it wrong for estate planning attorneys or for real estate agents. Stefan, thank you so much for joining us today.

0:44 Thank you, Bill. I'm I'm very happy to be here. I'm glad we were able to get this arranged. Now, I know I met you years ago and

0:52 [clears throat] the issue I don't think there was at the time capacity, but there was a there was litigation. And so, are you focused, you know, are you describe yourself as a litigator and the capacity is one of the major issues that come up now in probate and trust litigation?

1:08 Yeah, I'm a I'm a probate and trust litigator at Keystone Law Group, and we're our firm solely does the litigation side and the administration side. We don't do any estate planning. And so, I would say a good 80 to 85% of my cases are either trust contests or will contests. I'm either representing the beneficiary side or I'm representing the fiduciary side, but either way, if I'm trying to contest the validity of a trust or a will or if I'm trying to uphold the validity of a trust or a will on the fiduciary side,

1:44 [snorts] the capacity of the of the testator or the settlor to execute the document at issue is is one of the primary bases for contesting the validity of these documents. The others are undue influence and generally persons 65 or older it's financial elder abuse.

2:05 And not to make a commercial for your firm, but I believe Keystone is the largest firm in LA that's focused strictly on these trust and probate related issues. Yeah, we're about 23 to 25 attorneys is generally what we have and because we only do probate and trust litigation and the admin and no estate planning, I think we're actually one of the larger firms in the state of California. That only specifically does that type of work.

2:29 And I think as real estate agents, I can't at least as a broker myself, I try to tell agents don't let your customer go to just any attorney because if you go to attorney's website and they have their DUI, criminal defense, business litigation, divorces, oh and probate, oh and estate planning, they're probably not the right attorney. I think more and more as business gone on, it's become more of a you know, like all industries more specialized and this is a very specialized niche. Stefan, how did you end up in specifically probate and trust litigation and administration versus all the other wide opportunities available for you in the practice of law?

3:03 Yeah, well I was a what I would classify as a civil litigator when I first started my career and I remember in I think it was 2008, my boss at the time had a probate issue in his family. and he said does anyone here want to go to probate court and figure this out for me? And I said sure, why not? and so I sort of fell into it that way. I had done a little bit of estate planning previously but not no litigation and I got that's how I got involved in probate and trust litigation and I have practiced it exclusively since 2015.

3:41 Oh wow. I and I so I met you about four years in the process already. So you're pretty established. I didn't It's hard to tell you know, people's specialty and like I said, so many attorneys dabble in other areas that I was just like my business is so focused and makes me I think better at my craft. I was at fraternities as well. In this case again, full disclosure everybody here, I was on LinkedIn and saw this article that he had posted on capacity. I thought it was fascinating, read it and then I said, well, I know him well enough to at least ask him to come on the podcast and describe it. So, for me to once again, it's an article on Thomson Reuters and we'll put the link in the show notes. It's also linked on the website. So, let's talk about this cuz this topic that also relates to us as real estate agents. what does capacity mean under California law and why is it so important in the estate planning and probate context?

4:28 Yeah, well, yeah, it's extraordinarily important. capacity just you know, the law sets us sets up kind of a tier of [snorts] the capacity that someone needs to have to be able to execute certain legal documents. What does capacity mean? It means essentially you're of sound mind, that you can read a document, you can understand this document, you know what your intentions are, and you're able to execute it. And there is a wide range of capacity under California law to execute various different documents. so, a will for example, a simple will, it's a very low standard of care. sorry, standard of capacity. It's it For those of you who want to look at it's Probate Code section 6100.5. And to have the basic capacity to just to execute a simple will, you need to understand that you're engaging in the testamentary act. You need to understand that you're you know, you're having a will prepared, you're executing a will. You need to understand who the your the heirs are, your legal heirs. So, if you have a spouse, you need to understand you have a spouse. If you have kids, you need to understand you have kids. You need to know the relationship to those individuals. And you need to understand the property that you own. So, if you own a house, you need to understand you own a house. You own stocks, stock accounts, you need to understand that. So, if you can if you understand those three issues, three elements, then you're okay to sign a simple will.

6:01 The capacity to sign a trust, for example, and real estate deal real estate deeds to be able to fund assets into that trust, is what we call contractual capacity. And that is Probate Code section 812, and that requires a much higher level of reasoning. Not only do you have to understand that you're engaging in the testamentary act, you know, the natural heirs, the property that you own, but you need to understand that there are consequences to your decision to execute this trust. You could be disinheriting someone. you could be substantially limiting their testamentary gift. you So, you need to understand that there could be consequences to that decision, not only to yourself as the person that's executing the document as a settlor, but also to the individuals affected by that decision. You need to be able to understand the risks and the benefits of executing the trust. So, it's a much higher level of capacity, which stands to reason because I mean, I'm sure most of your contemporaries and people the people that you deal with, especially in probate sales, that these trusts can be 30 pages long with various articles and various sections, and it takes you know, you need to be able to think logically, problem-solve, reason analytically to be able to read these documents and understand them. So, those are the two main areas of capacity. Now, also, there's the capacity to get married, which is a much lower standard even than signing a will. So, that that's basic capacity. One other thing I would add in is what happens when testamentary capacity and contractual capacity collide, which they can and that comes in the area of amendments to trusts.

7:54 Now, the case law basically says if it's a very simple amendment, you're just changing the names of the beneficiaries, you're just changing the names of the trustees, then the courts are going to examine that on a sliding scale. They're going to think, well, that's more like a basic will. So, we'll use the lower standard of capacity testamentary capacity. What if it's a significantly complex amendment, decanting a trust, changing the way trustees can invest, you know, then that higher that requires a much higher level of capacity and the courts are going to look at that from a contractual capacity standard. So, there's there's a couple cases out there. I cite them in my article that they indicate that, you know, it's very much on a sliding scale when you're dealing with those types of issues.

8:36 So, real estate agents, which is the majority of our audience, we deal with transactional level. They have to They have a you know, higher standard than wills, for example. And you know, one of the challenges is we're not trained at all in this. We're not really supposed to make a determination other than we should But we have to be aware. We also don't want to abuse our own clients, right? So, if we if we're aware of a problem, you know, we're supposed to act responsibly. I also as a real estate agent that you know, people have different symptoms at different times of day. I literally met with a client about 11:00 in the morning and signed a contract and had their son call me like in the afternoon and say, "Didn't you Couldn't you tell?" I said, "No, he didn't seem like the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I didn't think he was incompetent." He said, "Well, part of the problem is he decided last night he wanted to do this, but he really didn't think it through and then you showed up." And so, you know, some of these things kind of get blended. So, as an attorney, obviously you [clears throat] can't really advise us cuz each case I'm sure is different. But what are the main mistakes, if any, you've seen say real estate agents make in listing property or selling property, making contracts, or maybe mistakes you've seen in the transactional level that maybe somebody should have noticed or somebody should have done something, but either purposely or maybe absently just overlooked.

9:50 Yeah, I mean, obviously as part of my practice [snorts] in litigating these types of trust and will contests, I see mistakes made a lot by estate planners primarily. And also individuals in the property sale purchase area like you. In that you know, especially for real estate agents, you need to understand that the deeds are contracts. So, they come with like you said, they come with a much higher level of capacity than executing a simple will. So, like you said, I mean, and I appreciate you're you're correct. I mean, you I mean, I indicated my article not even estate planners have a legal duty to ascertain capacity. But they have ethical duties. You know, there I'm sure there are ethical duties that govern the practice of law under the rules of professional conduct, and I'm sure there's something very similar for real estate agents. So, while you're not assessing this person's capacity, you want to ask the right questions to make sure that they know exactly what they're doing for. You know, if someone's executing a deed to fund their trust, do they understand that that's what they're doing? Do they Do they First of all, do they understand that they own the prop? Do they understand that they've created a trust? Do they understand the consequences of taking this piece of real property and taking it out of either a tenancy in common or joint tenancy and funding it to a trust, do they Do they understand exactly what they're doing?

11:22 I see frequently, especially with estate planners, because I like to depose them constantly for my cases, but even the more seasoned estate planners, I'm talking decades of work. Can't tell me the difference between the capacity to execute a simple will and the capacity to execute a more complex trust.

11:43 Ouch. Yeah. I have a And it's very what you just mentioned about this person who wanted to sign this document and you know, like you said, they have different they're different throughout different parts of the day. I'm in trial right now on a case where this gentleman executed a will from his hospital from his hospice bed and there are medical records which contemporaneous for the day, which is very uncommon, which indicate that yeah, at some points during that day he was sleeping. Other times he was very alert, answering questions, was able to make medical decisions. So, you know, the question is for the trier of fact, for the judges, at the time pen hit paper, did he sign that will? Did he have the capacity to execute that document?

12:34 Right. Yeah. All right. Well, yeah, these are complicated issues. I think sometimes as agents, you know, there's another side to this is if the person does have capacity but has other issues. Maybe they have family members pressuring them, maybe they have or I've where I've seen it is a another real estate agent is looking to take advantage of them. They're looking to list it on the cheap and then they're going to represent a buyer and they're going to flip the property and make a lot of money there. And I know I position my business always as I'm protecting the seller. I don't represent my own buyers my own listings. I would never buy a property once I met somebody in the capacity as a as a listing agent cuz that seems to me like an obvious conflict. And so sometimes there's an urgency to say, why should list this property and help them to protect them from these sharks that are circling. But at the end of the day, if they're not you don't have capacity, they don't have capacity. It's not my I'm not going to change the rules just to be Superman or on this. So, these are very difficult decisions in that, you know, we want to help even if we want to help people, we'd be careful and take a look at the right procedures and the right signs. So, what would you suggest? You know, I'm a real estate agent, I meet somebody, and you know, there's some signs. They're confident enough to call me and make an appointment, and we talked about things, but there's some concerns. Like, what would you caution me as a practitioner to say, "Maybe this is where you need to either call an attorney or you need to get medical advice or you need to just decline and walk away from it." What you know, what are the suggestions you'd give me in handling these issues?

14:01 Yeah, I mean, it's it's a hard question to answer because we're like you said, we're not medical doctors. You know, estate planners aren't medical doctors, and real estate agents aren't medical doctors. I think more than anything, it's it's intuitive. You need you When you sit down with someone and you start asking them some questions,

14:19 Right. they can respond to those questions or they can't. and obviously, if you sit down with someone and they don't even know the time of day, they don't know then you need to just walk away.

14:32 Right. Now, one of the things that I when I talked with estate planners, and I and one of the reasons one of the one of my emphases for writing this particular article was they'll just do the work anyway. And that that is just could lead you down such a dangerous path because then you could be subject to a post-death litigation, which is how I try those cases. That's That's my area of practice. the some people don't want to go through the expense, but or asking the client to go to the expense, but if someone comes to your office and actually is a question, then I would say to them, "Listen, I would love to help you out, but before I do, I need to have you examined by a geriatric psychiatrist." If they're 65 or older, if they're just if they're younger, than just a regular psychiatrist or a psychologist or even in if you can't afford to pay for a psychiatrist or psychologist evaluation at least make an appointment with your primary care physician and have someone indicate in writing that yes I'm a doctor I've evaluated this person they have the ability to make these decisions at their own free will and they and they are making these decisions of their own free will they don't appear to be the victim of undue influence they seem to understand what it is they're doing and I'm comfortable opining that they have the now when they come back to you with that that report from the psychiatrist or psychologist or letter from their primary care physician

16:10 Mhm. then I'd say yes go ahead and do the work because I think you're protecting yourself then on the liability side

16:19 Just anecdotally and not that I have a comprehensive study or survey in the matter but the case I've been involved with where there was capacity issues whenever they had such a letter from a psychologist psychiatrist or doctor the capacity issue wasn't being argued anymore it was only when there wasn't oops when there wasn't such a letter and there was something nefarious obviously nefarious you know it's the caregiver girlfriend situation or one of the siblings trying to pressure and there was no such letter and again I'm I'm not obviously that's not all the cases and you know you have more depth in that just but from what I said I think you're right at least we should make at least a modest effort and make a recommendation to a customer hey you're going to spend you're going to sell a house for a million dollars let's get let's let's spend the thousand dollars and get that letter make sure [clears throat] that you're not spending legal fees down the road if nothing else and the heartbreak of that whole process it there's to me it seems like there's no litigation worse than arguing over somebody's capacity when they're still alive it just seems to me so difficult.

17:19 I mean, I have a case bill right now that's going to trial in the middle of May where there is the trust is not an issue, the will is not an issue. What's at issue are seven joint tenancy deeds. And the issue is did the did the individual that executed these deeds

17:34 Mhm. have the capacity at the time Mhm. she signed these deeds to sign them. And getting to your other point, which I'm happy to talk about, too, is whether or not she was a subject of undue influence.

17:46 Right. Now, you know, undue influence is I could tell you, "Hey Bill, you should put me in your trust." every day, but that's not undue influence. It doesn't go beyond you know, it just me kind of joking or saying, "Hey, you should do this." When you when you engage in undue influence, you are in layman's terms, you're taking away someone's ability to make these decisions of your own free will. And so, you mentioned a caregiver. Like we see these types of cases all the time. Someone is elderly, suffering maybe suffering dementia or terminal illness, and they become very close to their caregivers. They don't even need to be family members. You know, there's a definition under the law for what's called a statutory care custodian. And they may make a huge gift to this individual to the detriment of their children or their spouse or So, I mean, I and the presumption under the law is that these are these particular gifts to these caregivers are to are presumed to be the are the result of undue influence. So, it's up to that caregiver to be able to rebut that presumption. And for good reason, right? There's also something in the law too that the estate planners should, if they're faced with this particular issue, and I don't know how it would impact a real estate agent, but if someone comes to an estate planner and says, "I want to leave my house to my caregiver. I love them. They're like family. You need to send them out to a neutral attorney an independent and you get what's called a certificate of independent review.

19:23 Where this independent attorney says hey, I spoke with this person. I'm convinced that this is what this person wants. They I In my opinion, not as a medical doctor, but as a practicing lawyer, this person has capacity. I don't feel that they're making this decision willy-nilly. I don't think they're being forced to make this decision. I think this is a decision of their own free will. And here's the certificate of independent review. And as me as a litigator, if I'm trying to unwind a document, it makes it much more difficult to do so.

19:53 Well, I mean, I can imagine I've seen cases where people have a caregiver that becomes a quasi girlfriend or quasi spouse equivalent of whatever the term might be. I mean, they're I'm pretty open to that being a real thing, especially now with family so removed and distant. You know, in the old days, everybody was kind of close together. Nowadays, people remote. Resentments get you know, created. You only come to see me cuz you want the inheritance. and so I you know, there are legitimate cases, but I do think the good advice you're giving is especially if you're that caregiver and if you don't want to call yourself caregiver, you want to call yourself a girlfriend, that's fine. But get the paperwork set up so that you can avoid the litigation. And as we as real attorneys see that kind of coming down the pipe we need to kind of you know, recommend them talk to an attorney and see if that's something that's necessary. And that's the purpose of this podcast is not we as real estate agents should be advising people legally. We should be advising people to get legal help. And if we see possible alligators in the swamp, let's point them out and hopefully you can talk to Stefan or other attorneys to help them get through that. So in that case

20:56 Please. I think I know that petitions to confirm sales are not really popular. Especially if someone has full authority under the Independent Administration of Estates Act. But, if there is any concern whatsoever, and I and I'm representing a fiduciary, you know, I'm either going to say, you know, if you even if you have full authority, issue a notice of proposed action. Have the administrator issue a notice of proposed action, because then that will give the interested persons the ability to object to that, and then you can file the petition to confirm the sale, and then you're putting before the court the deal points, the sale the costs, the commissions, and then it's up to the court. If the court finds that that sale is in the best interests of the trust or the best interests of the estate, then the court's making that decision, and that will just it relieves liability for the real estate agent, it relieves liability for the administrator or the trustee. So, while I understand some people aren't the biggest fan of them, it increase it increase costs, it can lead to extraordinary fees for attorneys, it delays the process, but it certainly is a way to CYA.

22:19 I mean and so I saw you're involved in a lot of them, I know, so Yeah, they're interesting, they're fascinating. I mean, for anybody's listening, I think I'm I'm attracted to these cases like moths to fire, because they're just so fascinating, you can't get away with it. And you can make a case that they may have be worth your time, but they're very satisfying when you help somebody and see things through to the end and get the results they want, so Okay. One of the phrases I saw you use in your article, I think was enigma that the capacity issues are an enigma within an enigma. It feels right when I read that, but what does that mean legally? What do you What's What's the point you're making there?

22:57 I think the point that I was trying to make is it just seems so intuitive, right? You sit down and you talk to someone and they say, "Hey, Mr. O'Grady, I or Mr. Smith, I want you to prepare a trust for me." And you ask them some questions and they seem to get it and then they you prepare the documents and they sign it. But again, it's not as intuitive as one would think because of the varying levels of capacity in the state of California. But again, if they just want me to prepare a simple will, then I and I sit down and I talk to them and I'm satisfied they know those very simple elements of the they know they're preparing a will, they know who their relatives are, they know what they own, then I'm going to prepare that will for them and I'm not going to think twice. But if they come in and they want me to prepare for them a complex revocable trust or an irrevocable trust or you know, a charitable remainder trust or all these varying different types of trusts, which obviously sophisticated documents requiring much more sophisticated level of capacity, then you need to make sure you're asking the right questions. So, when I say it's an enigma within an enigma, it's because people just don't ask the right questions. They think like I said, they think, "Well, and this makes sense to me, it's intuitive. They know what day of the week it is, they know who the president is, they know they have a bank account, so I'm going to do the work." It's not It's just not that simple. And again, I mean and then you have the like I said at the beginning, you have the complexities of what do you do when it's a trust amendment and it kind of can fall within the simple will of being a more complex document, you fall somewhere in between. So, then you have to evaluate capacity on a sliding scale.

24:45 So, it's just you know, you see a lot of especially as a probate and trust litigator, you see a lot of people I see a lot of real estate agents who someone says, "Hey, can you do this sale for me? It's a probate sale. And they don't they don't do probate sales. They're not experienced in them and it's very difficult and there are generally tons of errors. and they don't understand that these deeds and these contracts require much higher level of sophistication than a simple document. And the estate planners, too. I mean, you need to appreciate these differences. And if you don't, then you could be looking at a long and costly post-death litigation.

25:24 Mhm. One thing's we can't really talk about the details of your case, but the concept I was involved in a case with you where you were representing a among other things so it was somebody who was both a probate decedent, he was also a conservatee in a conservatorship. And then in the process, you were able to move the conservatee into a trust or I should say the assets of the conservatorship into a trust. And what that did was among other things, took the in this case they had he had substantial real estate holdings. In some cases, small pieces that required court approval, which is expensive and timely and difficult. And by moving it into a trust, can you know, simplify doesn't make it easy, but it makes it simpler than otherwise it would be. But I guess the point I was trying to make is just because you're in a conservatorship doesn't mean you can't get out of that and move into trust. And I never forgot how did you get the is there like a court-appointed fiduciary who on behalf of the conservatee can move the assets into trust or how does that work?

26:24 Yeah, that's a good question. So, in a conservatorship, and it would and when you're dealing with real property or someone's personal assets, you're dealing with the conservatorship of their estate. There are a probate conservatorship, I mean, this would be a whole 'nother podcast, but there are different types of conservatorships in the state of California but the ones we deal with are primarily under the probate code. They're called probate conservatorships. There's a probate conservatorship of someone's person. So, if they're unable to provide for their own safe housing, you know, have a roof over their head, make medical decisions, things like that, then that's a conservatorship of the person. Conservatorship of the estate, it would impact their finances. so, once you have a conservator appointed of their estate, and you can file what's called a petition for substituted judgment. So, if they don't if they own like in that case they own hundreds of real properties, but no estate planning. You want to make the administration of their estate as efficient and as cost-effective as possible. So, the conservator can bring this what's called a petition for substituted judgment. So, essentially what you're saying is, Your Honor, I've had this trust prepared for my conservatee, and I would like the court to bless that trust. So, basically you're asking the court to substitute its judgment for the judgment of the conserved individual.

27:55 And obviously you need to prove in the petition that had this person retained their capacity, this is a likely distribution, you know, it's going to their children, it's going to their spouse. you know, it can't be some off-the-wall type of distribution. you know, you need to convince the court that had this person retained capacity, this is what they would have done with their estate. Unfortunately, they never created a trust before they needed to be conserved. And so, we would like to set one up now. And there these are subject to court supervision. These trusts created for conservatees, they don't allow they can't contain no contest clauses, for example. There that's a big difference between other trusts. the they're very much governed by the prudent investment rule. So, only certain specific investments are permitted of the trustee and other types of trust this trustees have a lot of discretion to engage in other types of investments. You know, it's not to say that the trustee can't engage in those types of investments, but again, because it's court-supervised, you need to ask for the court's blessing. You know, I would like to invest the money in X or Y or like So, that that is how you do it in the in the cons confines of a conservatorship. you know, conservatorships are they are very drastic measures the courts take because you are really severely curtailing someone's civil liberties if you're going to conserve them. But, in some situations where the person hasn't looked while they had capacity hasn't created a trust, has doesn't have powers of attorney in place, doesn't have an advanced health care directive in place, the only the only answer is a conservatorship.

29:37 These courts are not looking to place people in conservatorships. If there are what are called least restrictive alternatives in place, meaning this person already has a trust in place. This person already has a power of attorney for health care and financial matters in place where they named the agent. They had the wherewithal they named this person. This is who they want to make decisions for them in the event that they lose capacity, courts are going to defer to those documents, are going to be very reluctant to place someone in conservatorship unless, of course, the court finds that the power of attorney was the person named as the agent under the power of attorney is a is a bad faith individual, is an undue influencer, and they convinced this conservatee

30:23 Right. to sign that document in their favor to name them as an agent so they can control their assets at a time when they were already lacking in capacity and probably should already have been in a conservatorship.

30:37 Yeah. complicated and yet the idea that you can get somebody out of that process, I imagine if the if the whole goal is just to liquidate assets and distribute the same as if it would be if it was probate court, you know, there's a statutory process. Moving those rules into a trust at least gives you the flexibility to handle the property outside the court detailed supervision. And so again, I saw that happen. I thought it was like a magic trick. I'm thinking, this poor family's going to go through conservatorship for all this property. The next thing you know, you guys set up a trust and the whole thing was moved over and I It wasn't easy, but it got a lot easier.

31:13 Yeah, I mean, obviously, and you need especially you need to do it early on, in my opinion, because if the person is suffering if they're an elderly person, they're suffering from advanced dementia, they're physically declining, too. So, you want to get the petition for substituted judgment on file and blessed by the court and the trust set up and the trust funded before the person passes or the conservatee passes, because otherwise, there's no ability to do that. And if they don't have estate plans in place, then you're going to have to do intestate succession, which that's going to complicate matters, and that's going to That's going to be good business for you. And but you're going to have to go through the court confirmation process, and it just makes It just makes life more difficult for everyone involved.

32:01 I did that There's a the one case I worked on with you that I'm thinking of we worked on a few years ago. I sold property as probate, then some property went into conservatorship, then some property went into trust, and then this guy who had found had was a real dealer and had some property nobody could tell was his until after all was said and done, it wasn't included in the trust, and that became a probate. So, I actually did the same customer probate and a trust and then a probate. the odds of that are pretty slim, but again, that's This is a very complicated estate and very unusual real estate investor who created some of these complications and was lucky to have you at the time to handle that. So, look, I'm just kind of mindful of the time. I went a little bit over. I apologize, but fascinating topic. This is a real topic we deal with all the time. And I think as real estate agents, we need to be willing to at least ask the questions, take some notes, and then make a recommendation or bring in the right person to help people move to that next level, whatever it is. Stefan O'Grady from Keystone Law Group, one of the largest, you know, I'll just tell you a quick little story while I have you. You know, you guys are you know, very are prolific firm, very large firm. And I'm sure you get all sides, you know, you get people who are legitimate, and then I'm sure the illegitimate objector comes to you, and you guys weed them out at some point, right? I mean, you get phone calls from all kinds of customers.

33:19 And we I actually had a case where I had a fiduciary, and I'd actually recommended one of your attorneys to do the administration. At the same time though, we got a kind of weirdo objector who was represented by Keystone. But it turns out that the Keystone attorney figured out pretty quickly that there's something wrong. And so, you know, I guess you do a lot of something, you get known for it. but I think in particular as professional field, I can say really one of the most respected firms in Los Angeles on probate and administration as well as litigation trust matters. Stefan O'Grady, partner from Keystone. Thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate your in-depth

33:54 Thank you, Bill. I Yeah, I really appreciate it. I really enjoyed this. Thank you. Look, if you want to get a hold of him, it's at keystone-law.com, and there's a picture of his smiling face. And then as well, in the show notes, we'll put a link to his article about issues. But if you need that for some reason, please reach out to me. And then his contact info is down below in the banner. Again, Stefan, thank you so much for joining us.

34:14 Thank you, Bill. Appreciate it. And for the rest of you, this is Probate Weekly. We get together every week usually with a probate attorney, trust attorney, litigator. today I think we got a chance to go into depth on the issues of capacity with somebody who I've been in the courtroom and been on matters with him and watched him in action. Really proud to have him with us today. love to get your ideas, comments, thoughts. put in the description, like, subscribe, send me an email if I can help. If any way you want I can help, please reach out. I'm @billgrossprobate on social media. As always, make today your best day ever. Thanks so much.