Avoid the Probate Mess with Proper Estate Planning, with Attorney Joshua D. Ramirez

0:02 So, our podcast, Probate Weekly, most commonly talks about going through probate, which probably means you did something wrong almost by definition because either you could have avoided it with proper planning or your plan wasn't done properly and it ends up getting litigated in probate court, at least in California, that's how it's held. One of the specialists, one of the great attorneys in Southern California, who both handles probates when they need to be administered and or his firm for litigation and also very involved with avoiding probate through proper estate planning is Josh Ramirez. Josh, thank you for joining us again today.

0:35 Thanks for having me, Bill. So, I'm just curious. I had a phone call just yesterday from it wasn't my client, it was actually the an agent who handled transaction I was with who said the client had a trust where the original trustor passed trustee passed in 2012, I think. And the trust had managed the property and then recently sold it. And they got a notice from this from the County of Los Angeles, a reassessment for that 16 years. You imagine any property in LA sold for about a million dollars, any property in LA has gone up to a million dollars or so. What did they do wrong? What is one of the steps when people do it themselves to save the fee, save the legal fees, but end up with a hundred thousand I think this case was a hundred thousand dollar property tax bill, at least that's what they were what they've been asked for. What did they do wrong, do you think, and what can be done to avoid that problem?

1:28 Yeah, there were probably two things that went wrong. It depends on when somebody passes, but first and foremost, you got to do the right forms. If you're not doing the right forms with the County Assessor, you're going to mess it up. So, I tell everybody hire a lawyer, you know, pay the few hundred bucks, the couple thousand dollars, whatever it's going to cost so you can avoid a six-figure bill like this. So, first and foremost, Bill, you probably didn't do the right forms back in 2016 or so around death. They probably didn't tell the Assessor that so-and-so passed away. And I will tell you one of the most common questions that I get is, "Well, what if we don't tell the assessor when mom dies? What if we just keep it in the trust and ignore it?" this is particularly true for apartment buildings and duplexes cuz siblings want to keep it as rentals. Everybody asks, "What if we just don't tell them?" Great, don't tell them, but one day when you sell or your kids sell, in your example, Bill, you'll get hit with the big bill.

2:25 So, you'll save, you know, the attorney a cheap attorney might be hundreds of dollars or the more expensive highly qualified might be a couple of thousand dollars. You'll save that and then 10 years later you get a bill for $100,000. Now, imagine if you'd taken the 500 bucks 10 years ago and put it in bought, you know, Google stock with it'd be worth $100,000. But if you didn't do that, and I can tell you in this case, it's interesting, they sold the house, they netted about a million dollars, which you would say, "Wow, that's a lot of money and they should be, you know, happy so they have to pay some taxes." Yeah, but then their money was spent. Right? They either bought a house or they bought something with it or invested the money or went on vacation, whatever they did with it. And now they got to go back and in this case, there's three beneficiaries. So, imagine the trustee is in should go back to or I'm not sure how what happens there. I guess they all are kind of obligated, aren't they?

3:15 Well, yeah, so they all if they've already distributed the money, then the trustee now has to go back hat in hand ask for money back. If not, trustee's got some liability, but ultimately too, not to scare people out there, but that trustee has personal liability now. If they didn't do their job correctly, well,

3:34 Ooh. we have some big-time issues here. So, perhaps one of the beneficiaries could say, "Hey, you didn't do your job, so rather than me pay my fair share, you should have you should take the whole thing because we would have avoided this had you done your job 10 years ago."

3:48 That's exactly right. And you know, all of tell me in consultations, I'm going to do it myself. I'm going to save everybody money. I'm going to I don't need to hire attorneys. And that's great. Everybody is telling you not to hire an attorney cuz they're looking out for themselves. In this example, the trustee should have hired an attorney with trust funds by the way. So, it's not terribly expensive. It's not coming out of their pocket. But unfortunately, penny wise pound foolish in your scenario, Bill.

4:14 To break down this case again just for the laypeople, when you say with the trust funds, meaning the money would have been paid one if the there's three beneficiaries assuming they're all getting an equal share, really about only a third comes out of the pocket of the trustee or the case successor trustee, and the balance comes out of the total proceeds, which affects the others as well. They're partners in that in that in paying that and fairly so because they're all have to save money, and I don't think the county or state want to put a trustee in position where they're faced with these kind of liabilities. They want you to protect yourself. That's why you have the ability to hire attorneys and pay for it out of the trust funds rather than individually. Wow. Now, you and I spoke I'm pretty sure it was you months ago about Prop 19. And I think you're the one that told me this that cuz I noticed that on every transaction I ever do, now the seller gets a reassessment even if at the time that we did the transaction, we filled out the preliminary change of ownership report, and even it was reviewed by the attorney and done properly. And I look at it and what I don't know why it I think you and I told me that the County of LA reviews those like 18 they have a backlog of 18 months to review the form, but they send out a reassessment within the next year every time.

5:32 That's right. So, if we did our job right and again, well, hopefully with a lawyer, do your job right, you do the right forms, you meet the exclusions, and we can talk about what these are in Prop 19. But if all the stars align, that's great. The assessor still might automatically send a of assessment. You got to pay that cuz that's the taxpayer is still our job to pay on time. Then we get a refund. As long as everything's right, I've always seen the refunds happen. Not too worried about that, but it is stressful. You're going to open that mail and say, "What the heck did the lawyer do?" And have to deal with that.

6:07 Now, for you know, I really we talked about some of this stuff before, but it's such a it's such an important topic that the Prop 19 becomes such an important part of the strategy of keeping property or not. Like you mentioned income property, that's an obvious one you might want to keep. Though many cases, the income property is of a type that the beneficiaries aren't appropriate owners for. I've love a lot of those cases, but whatever, family house you may want to keep it. And so in a probate, they might make a decision and go, "Well, we'll just do that." And yet, again, that this assessment could come back, especially if they keep the property because that means that the transfer doesn't really happen down the road or how does how does that yeah, I ramble a little bit. Let me ask a more specific question. What are some of the issues involved in making a decision from a tax point of view on either keeping property or distributing it through probate?

6:58 Yeah, that that's a great question and great topic. So, you know, there was a major shift in estate planning. So, for anybody who's did their trust with a lawyer, by themselves, doesn't matter. You did your trust before February of 2021, you're under the old law. And what that means is you probably weren't thinking about how we're going to address property taxes because that's when the law actually was implemented, February [snorts] of 2021. So, in my mind, that's one of the first things I ask clients questions is was it before that? Let's talk for a little further. So, before February of 2021, it was relatively simple. You met with a lawyer like myself. We asked who gets what, who's in charge. You put percentages down and you're all done, right? Pretty straightforward. I never cared before 2021 about the children's intent. That's not my business. It's the parents' intent is what I care about. they're my clients. After February 2021 in every one of my consults, I'm now asking the parents, "Have you talked to your children? Talk to them about what's going to happen with the property, with the apartments, with the duplex?" because their intention now matters. Whether they're going to keep it or whether they're going to sell it or that they want to leave it for the next generation, we need to know those answers to design a really good plan. So, the number one tax consideration now is assuming, you know, we're we're normal folks, we're not worth $30 million. number one consideration is what are your kids or beneficiaries, they don't have to be children, what are their plans with the properties? And I will tell you nobody knows in my consultations. They all say the same thing.

8:31 "I haven't thought about that. I haven't asked my son if he's going to keep it or sell it." And so, it turns into a second consultation later.

8:40 One of the things you said that's so important, I think, and misunderstood, I'm the real estate agent trying to sell the house and, you know, again, classic case of you know, a probate being administered and you have three beneficiaries, is the beneficiaries, I think, mistakenly think that the in my case, the real estate agent, but even more importantly, the attorney, works for them. When in reality, as you mentioned, the attorney works for the decedent or the trustee, but in a probate case, the decedent or the estate of the decedent is one who's most commonly hired. That doesn't mean the beneficiary may not hire their own attorney, that's a different situation. And so, there's decisions made, but they decisions, I guess, have to always be made with what's best for the total estate, not one particular heir.

9:24 Yeah, that's correct. And oftentimes, that conflict of interest is what gets trustees in hot water. you know, "I want to I want to keep the property for my for my kids, so let me start the buyout process." Yeah, but you're offering 300 grand less than fair market. That's not the right idea. My job when I represent a trustee or an administrator or executor of the state, my job is first to protect that person. Make sure I'm giving them the right legal advice so they don't get sued. And if they do, we did everything squeaky clean. And then my second that that dovetails in into that is making sure that the beneficiaries are all the wishes are carried out for the beneficiaries. So, I don't represent them, but in giving the advice, of course my advice will be to do what's right. so, you know, hammering that point, though, every trustee, administrator, executor, I'll be I'll be a little blunt. They'd be a little foolish to go through these processes without a lawyer. They're taking all the risk with no reward.

10:23 And I think just to clarify again what you're saying is an administrator should hire an attorney. That doesn't even just You're not talking about even just the filing of the petition, but you're talking about the administration and the decisions. And I think that you know, people say, "Well, I don't need it cuz I'm not really in litigation in court." No, you actually are in court. And you know, maybe it's not being litigated in the sense that somebody's opposing you, but that doesn't mean that they can't oppose you 5 years later because of what happened in that time period. You might be in litigation now and not know it and find those consequences down the road.

11:03 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely right. perfect example, just in April alone, we have three of our probates, which I'm very confident are now going to be litigated this month. they just Everything started out smooth, but for one reason or another, lawyered up and now we have issues. So, from the get-go, we want everything squeaky clean. Every single client, just about every single client, tells me when they first hire me for an administration, "Everything's fine. This is simple." They all say, "This is simple. Yeah. Me and my siblings get along. This is very simple, Josh. We don't need to be super formal." But I will tell you, the times that trustees are a little less formal, don't do direct disclosures, don't do things, that's when questions start arising.

11:46 Right. I give talks on top litigated issues in trust administrations and probates, and I always go back to the number one reason we are end up in court is bad disclosures, bad communication. so, even if you're best friends with your siblings, be formal.

12:04 Well, you know, I often say to my team and to colleagues in real estate, there's nothing good that happens from the day we list a property until the cu- customer gets the money in their hands. Now, that's a good day when they get the proceeds, as long as everything was done properly, but there's nothing good that happens. It's either nothing or bad. There's no good. Like, it never happens it closes sooner. It never happens a customer will get more money. Maybe you sell it for over list price. That's other than that. But, just the course of escrow, this the buyer never says, "You know, I really like you guys. I'm going to give you a $10,000 tip on this million-dollar house." It doesn't happen that way. It goes the opposite. And I think that sometimes with attorneys that many kind of focus on the procedures and don't understand that this is also a business transaction, and I feel like when things are done purposely but quickly, you create less opportunities for people to object. And I think that's where you when you talk about notices, you know, I see so many probates that get continued for the initial appointment. And 90% of the time, I look at that actually look at the probate notes, and these are minor administrative that easily could have been avoided with proper procedures, proper follow-up, and just slipped through the cracks. And I just feel every time you're playing Russian roulette. Is this Is that This the case where the objector is going to take another 30 days and say, "Hey, I looked on Zillow and you sold the house too cheap or whatever. I want to buy the house." And next thing you know, you have a conflict. So, talk a bit about, you know, when you were in your practice, I know you got a huge team of people. It's not you know, nobody's hiring just you. You're getting a team of professionals that's organized well.

13:42 Talk about your approach to trying to get these notices done properly, but I imagine done efficiently and quickly to kind of limit the gaps in the opportunities for problems.

13:53 Yeah, great question, Bill. So, you mentioned probate notes. So, I'll explain first so everybody understands. When you file anything in the probate court, whether it's a standard probate, a trust contest, an elder abuse matter, anything under the header of probate court, which covers quite a bit, everything we do, the court is going to issue what are called probate notes before that first hearing. Probate notes are what the judge is thinking. They have questions, comments, concerns, you forgot to send something, do something, they'll give you these probate notes. Most of the time, there is not enough time to receive the probate notes, address them, and refile it with the court before the hearing. Cuz they issue them they're supposed to issue them a lot sooner, but they issue them five, six, seven court days before the hearing, but you have to file and respond five court days before the hearing. So, sometimes it's a same-day turnaround and it's easy or you just need an address. Often times, it's a very common probate note is, "Oh, you need to serve this person and give them 30 days notice." Well, you can't do 30 days notice within 5 days. So, that continuance costs the estate a lot. It costs an extra 60 to 90 days more often than not, it's closer to 90 days of a continuance, where we could have already had the house sold, money in people's pockets potentially playing what we're doing. We could be earning interest. We could have paid off creditors. We could have done a lot of things. So, we're just waiting around.

15:14 My team and our job is to avoid those probate notes at all costs. And selfishly, and I joke with my probate clients, we don't get paid until the end of the probate. So, we do not want to delay, we do not want to have probate notes. We're in the same boat as you, so selfishly, our job is is to get the probate closed as quickly as possible.

15:34 Right. Yeah, it's interesting cuz I've I not most realtors don't know this. That's why I do these trainings and such to kind of raise professional standards amongst agents. And, you know, I when I look at probate notes and I'll reach out to attorney or the paralegal, it's always like I tiptoe cuz on one hand, I'm kind of pointing out mistakes they made, but I'm really doing it that they should correct it and avoid the penalty of a delay. And I that's one of the hardest parts for me as a real estate agent is how do I help and not be too helpful or and you know, obviously, I number one, don't ever embarrass the attorney in front of their client or anybody in front of their client. That's not going to help you at all, but it just seems like so many of these things, I'm sure you see it too when you're on in court or in Court Connect, you see so many of these note issues are obviously you know, resolvable, should have been resolved before. And then you'll hear somebody argue, well, you know, I publicized it in the wrong paper. Well, yeah, but you know, this is like the better paper. Well, then I you know, the court rules are the court rules and as a general rule, the judge is going to follow the court rules and procedures, I think. So, that's what makes a probate specialist different than somebody in the trade who just does a couple probates.

16:41 That's exactly right. We'll we'll know what and what to avoid. We'll know how to avoid them. If we get the note, we'll be able to address it. We won't be scrambling, what does this mean? The unfortunate thing that clients should understand in especially LA and Orange County, they do not address those probate notes from the bench. Meaning, if I go to a hearing with the client and there's a probate note, it's going to be automatically continued. There's nothing I can say or beg or plead to the judge to let them address it. Other smaller counties, you know, if I'm in a in a county with a very small calendar, in San Bernardino or a miscellaneous county, things are done a little bit different. I can just talk to the judge a little closely, but LA and Orange County we're going to get those continuances. so we want to avoid those at all costs. Not always possible. Sometimes it's a client delay. Sometimes the court is just giving unreasonable notes that we'd have to address.

17:35 Yeah, when you go to LA County, I always feel like it's a freight train about 100 cars long going downhill. And the one thing the judge is the engineer and the one thing you don't want to do is slow the train down. They're not someone down. If you can speed things up, they're all for it, but you better be on your game or you're going to get continued and get things fixed. And I don't think people appreciate how detailed and precise I don't think attorneys do. I think they're just There's something about attorneys that you're kind of used to kind of wing it and talk their way out of problems and maybe that works in civil court or in criminal court, I don't know, but it just seems that you can tell the difference from attorneys who are in this world exclusively and those who are complying with it. To that point, you know, you have a fairly you know, nice-sized firm. You handle not just probate administration, but probate litigation, but and also I think an emphasis on estate planning, which I define as the avoidance of probate. Talk a bit about the decision, you know, when I go to your website, I don't see DUIs and divorces and civil litigation and all these other things like I do and I always recommend to clients you need to work with attorney who specializes in this field and probably also in your county. Talk about the business decision to focus in this area versus I'm sure your license allows you to practice other things. I'm sure you've been experienced other areas. Talk about the choice you made to focus in this area.

18:54 Yeah. you know, one is is just being as best we can in one area of law. So, being the best attorneys we can, sleeping at night, not wondering did I did I do that DUI thing right? I don't know. I looked it up on chat GPT. You know, we don't want to be those attorneys. And I will tell you when I litigate with other attorneys or work with other estate planning attorneys on co-counsel situations, the attorneys who only do this area of law, their knowledge just continues to grow, they get better, they get we get deeper. but we're talking about very nuanced issues. The attorneys that I go up against and I look up their sites and that's exactly what they do, personal injury and estate planning and DUIs, they don't be very be upfront they don't really know what they're they're talking about. They know a surface level, but the problem is like you said, this is a precise area of law. This is not surface area of law. a lot of attorneys go into estate planning thinking, "Oh, we just got to write down percentages, who are trustees, and print out a bunch of forms." It doesn't work like that. You need to know taxes, you need to know dynamics, what happens in court, elder abuse, how to test people's capacity. It is a very big issue, so when any younger attorney says, "I'm going to go into this full-time," I them I support I train them I mentor them I work with a lot of firms, but when an attorney says, "I'm going to tack on wills and trusts cuz it's easy money," I just shake my head because it's it's a disservice to clients.

20:25 I know that there when I when I look at attorneys I go to calbar.org I always try to try I'm trying to who they are, how long they've been in practice, you know, verse contact information, obviously. But also importantly is it has different specialties. you know, for example, when I look at your on your profile, I'll just put it up so people understand what I'm talking about. But it's a great resource, free, calbar.org. it has these it has these specialties that you report, elder law, these are all related to probate, litigation, obviously taxation, obviously related, trusts, estates, and wills and profiles. So, are these things that you have to get special classes for to be designated, or is this just yourself identifying these areas that you work in?

21:05 Identifying the areas that we work in. One thing I we did have to get special is for taxes I have an LL.M. in tax. That's a post doctorate degree in taxes. Now I'll tell you a lot of clients think I don't care if my attorney knows taxes, that's what my tax person is for. I just need my attorney to say here's the percentages and give me a trust. That's that's very short-sighted. Whether you're worth a hundred grand and have a condo or you're worth a hundred million dollars and have giant portfolio, your attorney needs to understand taxes cuz when we're doing these estate plans, again, no matter your net worth, we're talking about capital gains taxes, regular income taxes, charitable deduction planning. We're talking about property taxes, public assistance planning. so we're talking about a lot of different taxes, gift taxes. you know, why shouldn't I add my kid on title now? It's cheaper than doing a trust.

21:54 It's easier. I just go to a office supply store, get a form and add it on. It's easy to do that. And if somebody that's a good rule of thumb if it's cheaper or easier, yeah, question that. Why? Why? Why am I deviating from what 80% of the public is doing? Setting up a trust. Why? I'm not smarter. Why am I smarter and going to Walmart and getting the deed? Maybe something's wrong. Maybe there's a reason people don't do that. so that's why in our firm we give free consultations. Whether you're looking to set up your estate plan, to look to review your estate plan, litigation, probate, we give free consultations on the phone because you'll see the difference. By talking to me and my team you'll understand there's much difference than the person I spoke to in 1995 about my trust. A lot's changed.

22:39 Yeah, a lot and to go back to taxes a bit, I think one of the one of the two reasons people you know, do planning is for tax limitation, tax mitigation, not tax avoidance I guess. But you know, to properly use a tax code to your advantage to pay as little as possible. And you know, it to me obviously, I'm sure there are things that are beyond your scope as a regular practice. I imagine tax litigation or there's certain areas of tax that you're going to bring in maybe a specialist, but to have that knowledge to craft the estate plan to me just seems like you're helping give the customer what they want in many cases, right? You don't want to get sued, you don't want to be in probate court, and you want to transfer as easy as possible, but you also want to transfer as much money as you can, and that's requires I think the proper notice. And so these are areas where again, it's not like you just have these straight areas. These are all related. You know, I've seen attorneys who have you know, family law as their specialty. They say, "Well, it just seems like every probate I had had family law consequences to it." Well, okay, and that's that's probably a reflection of their personality, but I look at your list of areas and in the way you market yourself, and I say, "This is the kind of attorney that people should feel very comfortable. This is your area of expertise, you know the area, and they should Let's talk to again about you mentioned the free consultation. You know, one of the challenges that you know, I really encourage every realtor to look at your client when you're selling them a house or when they've already bought it, and do they have an estate plan? And the answer is no, this is a conversation we should start.

24:13 This is mean we need to be able to share the license to sell a plan or be an affiliate of some plan, but we should be asked the question and then direct people to the best resources. And so I know that you know, one of the things I'm working with is a reverse mortgage company where they have a national program, and of course they can't really work with the [unclear] attorneys like you because they're geographically spread out. They offer like a free discount to one of the national services, kind of like the TurboTax of estate plans, if you will. And I always feel like, "Well, a bad plan's better than no plan cuz at least you started, you've you created the name, maybe you acquired the document in the name of the trust. You can always rewrite the trust." I know that's not the right answer, but you know, it's hard to have the customer have that conversation, make decisions, spend the money. Talk about your consultation. What is somebody going to walk away from in talking to you as far as are you the right solution for them? Is it more they start the process? What does that consult look like?

25:10 Yeah, and you know, I'll answer that by saying if I'm a client, here would be my checklist what I'm talking to an attorney like Josh, like anybody, any other trust attorney. First and foremost, I need to make sure they know what they're talking about. You do that by talking to them. You'll you'll [snorts] hear them. If they're not speaking in plain English, very simply, here's the law, here's what we're going to do, here's why. That's if they're trying to talk over your head, maybe they're they're trying to be too fancy. I also look at their website, make sure this is all they do. If they do trust and DUIs, I'm going to go somewhere else. And this is the by the way, same analysis I would give myself if I needed a lawyer. If I my business was getting sued, I'm going to find a business litigation office. I'm not going to find a firm who does business and family law and DUIs and trust. I'm going to find a specialist. cuz they know how to read the law even deeper, not just the surface level. So, do they know what they're talking about? can they can they talk to you in plain English? does their firm only do this? Do they have any bar complaints? On that Cal Bar website you looked, check it out. then I would also make sure I like the person.

26:17 Not in your case, just FYI. Exactly. So, you look there, you see when you were admitted and if there's nothing else there, you're you're golden. so, do I like the person? Do I like Josh? Do I do I like Joe Blow who I'm hiring? That that's great. You need to like them cuz you might only talk to them a couple of times and set up your trust. You might talk to me very often cuz you have tax issues, real estate transactions. You're going to you're going to do a lot of things with me in the future. So, do I like me? One thing that attorneys don't talk about often that that I think should be on the radar of checklist is what's the age of the firm and the attorneys there? And so, you're at the 85-year-old attorney, absolutely might know a lot. And they're my mentors, and they're great. However, are they going to be here to administer your trust when you die 10, 15, 20, 30 years from now? Probably not. The 25-year-old attorney probably doesn't know enough. So, we do think that our firm right now is kind of at the sweet spot of age and experience where a lot of clients know we will be here. As you can tell by looking at me, we're we're right around 40 as our average lawyer here. And so, we're going to be here to administer your trust when you pass away. When your kids call us, I'm going to say I absolutely remember your mom. Here's the notes. here's here's what the plan was. So, in a consultation, you should expect all those things, and you should walk away with I know the plan the attorney's going to do, I know the fees or at least a good estimate of the fees depending on what choices we make. and I will tell you most clients do decide to hire us during a consultation. They say, "We like it. Everything's reasonable. Let's go." The clients who don't hire us, the primary reason is I bring up property taxes and have you talked to your kids and they have it. And so, we put a pause on everything, and they go talk to their kids about long-term goals here.

28:08 Well, look, I think it's really important for every real estate agent who when we start with the buying process, we talk about in California, for sure, do we talk about this, we encourage them to talk to somebody. Josh is one that's available. now, you I know your license in California. Your office is in Orange County, but you practice LA County, I know, Orange County, Riverside, San Bernardino. Do you other counties as well, San Diego?

28:32 We do. We do all counties. depending on the situation, sometimes we'll absolutely recommend hire somebody local in that county. I have a good chunk I'd probably say maybe 5, 7% of our clients are very far away, more than a small drive.

28:48 Right. A of NorCal clients. We're also licensed in Washington, so we have a another firm in Washington Estate Planning Services. A lot of our clients either have property there, but more accurately, they have children who moved there.

29:03 Right. And so we do work with Washington clients as well. Got it. So again, I think Josh is a local attorney, yet has a pretty big presence throughout Southern California, particularly California as a whole. Definitely worth talking to and finding out more about if you have a probate situation. Up front, give them a call and you can talk about it. And also estate planning. If you have estate planning needs, and I know I've had people call you regarding tax questions specifically that kind of lead to the whole need for redoing the estate plan or how to handle things with property tax. In fact, I do think really your business, a good chunk of it is also like other attorneys that bring you in because of your tax specialization, if I remember correctly. So

29:40 You're exactly right, Bill. In fact, this is good for everybody to know, my referral pro- where I get most of my cases is not Google or advertisements or the billboards. It is other lawyers. And I think that's a testament to the trust we've built and the reputation we've built.

29:57 Well, I know this. I've certainly learned every time we ever talk. I really appreciate you being on our call today and sharing with our industry a great probate resource and a great estate planning resource. If you want more, oops, I lost my spot there. The website is californiaestateplanningservices.com and you can see their picture there with a team of people based in Placentia, but available on the phone. We have the contact number down below [phone number shown on screen]. Or reach out to me if you know, if you're driving and can't get this information, I'd be more glad to make an introduction. I have on several occasions and feel very comfortable that Josh can take a look at your situation and help quite a bit. Josh, I thank you so much for joining us today. Really appreciate you helping educate us and helping us learn more about probate and probate issues to avoid.

30:38 Of course, thank you for having me again, Bill, as always. And friends, this is Probate Weekly. We get together every week usually with a probate administrator or litigator like we did in this case. Also, estate planning services are important to avoid probate and Joshua I think was a great resource for that. What do you think of the episode? Do you have questions, comments, like, dislike? Send me your information, I'd love to hear it. And please support if you like this and subscribe. If I can help in any way, please reach out at Bill Gross Probate on social media and as always, make today