Accessible, Reliable and Convenient Dispute Resolution, with Retired Judge Mary Thornton House

0:02 As a general rule, unless you're an attorney getting paid by the hour or working a case, you want to talk to a judge in this. And if you want to talk to a judge, you should always talk respectfully. Today, we had a chance to talk to a retired judge, retired probate judge from Los Angeles County. Really excited to have today, Judge Mary Thornton House, retired, who now is also we'll talk about her mediation services. Judge House, thank you so much for joining us today.

0:25 Oh, you're most welcome. So, one question I have right off the bat is seems to me I'm old enough to remember u my father was an attorney you know 40 years ago 50 years ago and I would go with him to Mosk and the demeanor in the court was completely different. people dressed differently like dressed like they're going to a wedding. people acted differently. and it seems to me that it's to the detriment of all parties. Makes it harder for the judge to get things done. and all parties. There's more tension when we lose formality. Talk a little bit about why is it important to maintain appropriate demeanor in a courtroom and particularly when addressing a judge or in a courtroom in general.

1:08 Well, you know, we are a third branch of government. and we are very instrumental to keeping our civil rights for everyone, not just a few a few. it's an institution that deserves a great deal of respect and so having and also judges are control freaks.

1:32 Okay, totally control freaks. They like an orderly life. They don't like surprises. I mean I remember as a lawyer if a cell phone would go off in court the judge would go crazy.

1:45 Yes. You know but I kind of when I was a judge I thought if I went crazy every time a cell phone went off I'd be crazy all the time. So I don't it didn't bother me but it did bother my colleagues. So you have to realize they have this personality trait where they need to be in control or have the appearance of control.

2:04 And if you are civil to a judge, if you're respectful, if you're dressed properly, that goes a long way to filling their desires for what they want to happen in a courtroom. there's a saying in the lunchroom that we would try the most dull case with the best lawyers than the most exciting case with the worst lawyers.

2:26 Is that correct or is that correlation? You know because when the lawyers break down and are disrespectful and you know act foolishly or child childishly it's not showing respect for the proceeding. It's not showing respect for their clients. it's not showing respect for the judge. So, and then we also have a saying, a pro per jury trial, just shoot me. Okay. [laughter] So, because those are the most difficult people to deal with because they don't have a legal background and you know, you walk a fine line explaining procedures but not trying to help them, right? So, those are those are tough cases. But yeah, you know, when I was starting out as a lawyer and I started out in 1979, I'm sorry,

3:17 1979.

3:27 I'm sorry about that. I love this. I'm talking to a judge and the phone goes off. I [laughter] think it's great. You're human. Perfect timing. Yeah. I silence my cell phone, but I have a landline here, so I screwed that up. But no, when I started out as a lawyer, I wasn't allowed to wear pants to court,

3:51 Okay, that was in 1979. And I would even as late as the mid 90s, I would go over to federal court and if I had a pants suit on, some of the judges would send me home. so it's it's it's changed a great deal.

4:11 Yeah, we had an issue in one courthouse where some of the public defenders, the women were wearing really low cut blouses and the male judges didn't really know how to deal with it without, you know, being accused of anything. And so one of my colleagues walked asked me to come watch this one public defender to see if I could talk to her to make sense. And so I took her aside and I said, "Look, you're we have a local court rule that you're not to wear distracting clothing. your clothing is distracting not only the judge, but I think maybe the audience, maybe your client, maybe the jury." and she looked at me and I thought I was going to get chewed out. And then I said, "And I'll just tell you a Fox News statistic." Okay. they've the they found that men listen to those gorgeous anchors. They listen more carefully but retained less. Okay. [laughter and clears throat] So I said, "We're I'm not trying to insult you. I'm just saying you're not doing a service for the system or for your clients or for the jury. And I think you would want to have the jury retain what you're saying without being distracted by your clothing. so, [clears throat] it is important, and to use the right words. You know, say your honor. Don't ever call a judge in open court. It's your honor. there's a even a local rule about that in LA County. It So, it's just I really can't explain. I Well, I guess I can. I was lucky enough to be invited by the Yale Law School to teach Chinese judges in Beijing.

6:04 And Chinese judges, they start off on a judge track. They don't become lawyers first. And they found the concept of a jury trial almost incomprehensible.

6:17 Sure. and one of the things that I would tell jurors, I'd say, you know, we bring you in from the outside because you protect our rights. And they don't have that in China. I mean, at some point they were saying, well, what happens if you get appealed? I go, well, the court of appeal decides whether I made a mistake or not. Well, what if what if a party official doesn't like what you did? I said, we don't have party officials,

6:45 Right? so it's it's really if you compare and contrast other justice systems, ours is really not perfect, but it's one of the best and having participation by jurors and lawyers and the general public. It's just a system you need to respect. And so acting appropriately, I always tell my I used to tell my clients this. I said, "We're going to we're going to we're going to walk in a deposition or you're going to be testifying on the witness stand. Just pretend the audience is full of your future in-laws and you're putting your best foot forward." Okay. and so that's dressing appropriately as well. And I'm shenanigans, you know, really slick client that wears, you know, thousand suits. No, we dress for the part. Okay. But yeah.

7:40 Well, we dress for the judge. I think at the end of the day or the jury, but if it's in probate, we don't have juries most commonly. So, we're pressing we want the judge to rule in our favor. It just seems to me that you would do whatever is going to I don't want to make it sound like we're manipulating the judge, but we're showing respect for the process and we're asking the judge to take us seriously and sometimes we're not shorting the system and by dressing appropriately. So, I you know, I'm a real estate agent. I think sometimes we feel like we can get away. We as a group feel like we can get away with it. I said, "No, the opposite." If you want to get business from the attorneys, then you need to be even more on point than the attorney as far as your dress. Dress professionally. Men, that's a suit, tie, shirt. Women, I think, you know, that's a little difficult for me to explain, but I think they know what that means. What's the I just say the equivalent to a woman, whatever that means to you. That could be a pants suit, could be a could be a pant, a weight,

8:34 Something tailored. Yeah. But something is appropriate. and so the demeanor becomes important. and like you say, the way we talk. and so I think the process of showing respect is is sometimes your clothes, like you say, addressing the court as your honor. not talking the judge asked you to talk or asking for permission. I've seen attorneys like argue with a judge. Now, I didn't go to law school, though my parents disappointment. but I've clerked for attorneys in college and been in a lot of pro probate courtrooms. Once the attorney starts arguing with the judge, I want to laugh, but

9:14 It's over. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I when I trained new judges or mentored them, I'd say, you don't have to argue with the lawyer. You've already won the case. You've won the argument. You're the judge,

9:28 Right? you know, and if you and if as a judge, we're sort of trained to show respect for the lawyers as well. And all they all people say is, you know, I may not have liked your decision, your honor, but I know you heard and you listened to me and you to treated me with respect. And so you can and it works both ways, you know, saying thank you and please and may I speak now, your honor, you know, asking permission to approach the bench, asking permission. you know, a lot of judges require lawyers in the audience to stand up when they take the bench. You know, the bailiff will go all rise.

10:16 Yeah. You know, Department 29 is now in session. Yeah. I sort of fought that at first, but I realized it wasn't me. it was just the office that I held and that makes everybody a little bit more somber and settled down, you know, after that happens. So, yeah, there's you're asking really good questions. It's really making me think back to my days as a lawyer and now as a judge as well. what else would you like to get insight on? So the thing that you know whenever I have clients or I have colleagues or other work with the common experience if they've not been in court in probate court in LA County is how you know it always starts late you know the hearings called for 8:30 and almost always starts at 8:45 9:15 and there's so many cases now I know this because I've been around enough to know that doesn't mean I show up late it means I get there early and be prepared to wait a bit and often times the judge has reviewed the notes before the hearing or they're reviewing things the last minute before in some cases or they have a ex parte that I might want to be that ex parte two months from now why they're late but the conversation is it starts a little bit late and then it seems to go on forever my case was called 8:30 and I've been here on the 20th case and the 30th case and the list at the same time the judge universally their calendars are full with cases they have so many case to deal with when I when I do business in other counties, they don't have near the case load. I don't believe [unclear], Orange, and Riverside been in and others. so I feel like there's this train going downhill. The judge is trying to hold the brakes. The customers in front, you know, or the client is like upset about the timing of it. Talk a little bit about that tension

12:04 And how the judge work is working to be both patient and like you said, to have people be heard and yet there's only so much time in the day. Well, I mean from a judicial perspective, calendar management is an art. It's not a science. and some people are better at it than others. one of the things that I know which really shocks me is I read these you know bios of judges and the Daily Journal and when the lawyers go, "Oh, we really like her because she reads all of our papers." Well, we're supposed to read all of your papers, you know, [laughter] and makes me think there's people out there that don't. but

12:48 You hope not. Yeah, you hope not. but you know, I've even had situations where I was in the ended up in the with a with my husband all night and I hadn't prepped the calendar and I walk out and I tell them I said, "You all, I was up all night. I haven't prepped this calendar. if you could just give me a short summary and tell me what to look at, I'll I'll take things under submission because I wasn't going to I wasn't going to fake my way through. That that's not appropriate. and people were great. you know, it does pain me to see these large calendars in LA. I want I was doing probate in Pasadena and then when they consolidated it I moved down to Mosk and I took over the calendar of a judge who really wasn't a good fit for probate and I realized that I had 30 matters on calendar a day but almost twothirds of them had continued two or three times

13:46 Correct you know and so I sat my staff down and I said look it's going to be a terrible six months But and you're going to be strained and I'm going to be strained. But if we can double set, if I can put 50 to 60 cases on calendar a day, knock off the continuences in six months, we'll have a manageable calendar. We'll have, you know, first settings and having something done with them. And it took six months. It really did

14:14 To pull up the case loads, get everything taken care of. And so yeah one thing that I like to do when I go through the calendar I sort of when I read the read it I say oh this is going to take longer than the others. So sometimes I will prioritize the calendar and I'll call it in order, but I'll call this the shorter matters first, the ones that I think aren't going to take very long. And that that clears out the courtroom and it gives me an idea of how much more time I would have left to deal with the cases that are on calendar.

14:50 And it seems as a result of all that that when attorneys come in prepared and know what they're to do, they know the procedures, they reviewed the notes, they either filed ahead of time and or they didn't, they bring the extra copy, they're go right to the point if it's appropriate to discuss. And you can just see the judge just appreciates that and is going to give them consideration because they're following the rules. and the look on the judge's face when they ask the attorney about the notes and the attorney says, "Notes? I don't know what you're talking [laughter] about.

15:21 Well, you can't laugh in court." So, I have to tell you, the minute I would sense, someone was not prepared or, you know, sometimes there's emergencies and the lawyers called from down the hall and goes, "You got to go over to department 29 and here's the case." That happens. but if I sense they're not prepared, I make them sit down and I say, "I'll call you at the end of the calendar." and we'll talk about it. But I mean those were things that I think most judges are aware can be done. I hope so.

15:50 I was lucky when I became a judge. I had spent probably 80% of the days I drove to work as a city attorney. I was in a courtroom.

16:01 I was in federal court, state court of appeals. I mean I really didn't use my office that much. I was in the courthouse all the time. So, I had a lot I was appeared in front of a lot of judges and I saw how it should be done and how it shouldn't be done.

16:14 I don't think you're getting no one's getting that kind of court time where they work anymore unless you're like a DA or a public defender or something like that. COVID kind of squashed the jury trial system in a way because I, you know, I write a book every year for Thomson Reuters. It's a jury instruction companion handbook and I pull cases from the previous year and I update the subject matter chapters and I look in the daily journal and in different services for jury verdicts and the number of jury trials being done in the state of California has dwindled tremendously. so I experience in terms of taking the bench late, a lot of times staff is supposed to get there about 8:15 and start checking people in,

17:08 Right? But sometimes things happen and they can't, right? and you know, if you've got on calendar, you got to check in 60 people,

17:17 Right? At least at least at least 60 people. Could be on a sale with like eight parties. It could be even more than that in some cases. Yeah. Yeah. yeah. And I think that's the thing. It's not the judge's fault necessarily, right? The court reporter doesn't show up or show or, you know, the judicial administrator or whoever. the judge has nothing to do with that.

17:36 Yeah. I mean, everybody thinks we have all this power. We don't you know we don't have you know actually in the old days when there was MUN and superior municipal courts and superior courts those were the smaller municipal courts were run you know like a dictator but once everything consolidated the employees of the court became employees of the court not staff of the judge. Uhhuh.

18:04 So there's an employer employee relationship that does not connect the judge with his or her staff. Now that said though, LA County court, the person who runs it is the head judge, right? He's I remembered in COVID and it was like miraculous how he kept things going. Like I remember reading the meetings and the notes and the changes. So it really is a it's not a political appointee or a administ you know a what's the word I'm looking for? It's not it's not a legislative position or a it's a judge I think who [clears throat] has the makes the rules and procedures and makes those decisions for the court

18:42 That yeah when again I keep harking back to my experience not to brag but just to let you know where I'm coming from and that is I was on the bench 15 of those I was a supervising judge

18:56 And we have a saying amongst supervising judges when you are supervising other judges it's like herding cats [laughter]

19:04 Because I mean seriously you can't tell anyone how to rule. You can't the only power you have as a supervising judge is the power of assignment.

19:15 So if you don't want to be stuck doing traffic trials in, you know, Lancaster, you can kind of go along with what your supervising judge would like you to do. But it's not judges are not leaders, they're controllers. So it's it's very difficult for supervising judges. They have to get consensus. They have to get buy in. They have to, you know, it's run more like a corporation. So in LA County, when you've got 500 judges and you have a presiding judge, yes, they control the rules and make powers of assignment. but it's it's more of a democracy

19:56 Than it is an autocracy. Okay. it just seems the judge get that position, it's not an accident that they're supervising. Like I remember in probate court occasionally a judge would be sick or out and the supervising judge would step in and you could just tell. There's one in particular member a few years ago you could just tell he was on his game. Like it was like another level. Well, it's like anything in life. There's people who have mastered something, gone to the next level, and they can step into it. But I just remember watching this guy masterfully handle the court calendar. I walked in thinking gh because some of the judges would be more difficult and take longer and this guy just disposed of some of the cases so efficiently and nicely. it really was masterful to watch.

20:36 Yeah. I mean I found my biggest tool was talking slower and lower. Okay. because I when you scream at people or get angry, they just shut down and that's you don't want that. so I yeah, I really I when I mentor new judges, I the judges I cared about the most and thought the most highly of were ones who were gracious and treated me with respect,

21:05 You know, didn't interrupt, didn't, you know, or if the interruption was, okay, I understand that. Let's move on. That's that's fine. All right. But you know it's [clears throat] you know what I hate to I'm gonna be really I want to generalize but

21:22 Oh dear. There have been a whole group of lawyers that I think are millennials and they don't get it.

21:30 They're late to court. they don't call in and say they're going to be late. They get mad at you if you heard the matter. You know, I mean, I if someone didn't show up, I would always ask my judicial assistants to call the office and find out why.

21:45 And they said they'll be on the This one was on the phone. My judicial assistant said, "They say he's in your courtroom." I said, "Well, he's not here,

21:53 You know." And then when I made a ruling and he came in about 11:30, he was angry. And I said, "You know, you got to you got you got the wrong you're not approaching this appropriately, you know."

22:06 No. getting mad at the judge is not a winning practice. I again I go to law school but that one I know for that question. I know the answer to that question for sure. [laughter] So obviously watching this we can't help but notice it's judge Mary Thornton House retired. You're no longer a judge. I appreciate you sharing with us the fundamentals of the relationship. But today now you have another business or related business obviously which is mediation or maybe how to avoid judges or a tool to avoid taking the court taking the judge to trial. maybe just hopefully to have the judge approve a I guess some sort of a motion both parties have agreed to. So talk a little bit about how does mediation fit in particularly in probate as a tool. I know there's mandatory mediation conferences and there's a free thing offered by the San Bernardino or I'm sorry [unclear] bar offers something that's free. Talk about mediation in theory and then share a little bit with what you're doing in specifics.

23:01 Sure. I think when I start a mediation I give a little introduction. All right. So I think that might be helpful. one thing I advise everybody I don't do it in the same room. I keep the parties in separate rooms. U most probate cases are highly emotional. All right. and everybody used to talk about probate being family lawike. No, it is not family law. is it's probate heavy. I mean, because most relationships in probate start at birth, you know, family law is the first time you went on a date, you know. so and a lot of people well, anyway, I talk about the confidentiality privilege and that is it's an evidence code section. It's in the section of on privileges. It's as sacrosanct as a doctor, patient, lawyer, client, minister, family, church member. we're not allowed to talk about what goes on in other rooms. And people find that very odd. All right? But it's not.

24:19 It's it's the way I explain it to people is it's so you can tell me everything good, bad or fabulous about your case and then I can evaluate it. I can give you an idea of, you know, what I would do if I were hearing the facts of the case, give you a value on it. and that's that's unique because in mandatory settlement conferences, you the judge will bring both the lawyers in or the parties in and they'll hash it out and talk it out. No. in probate, no. the second thing I talk about is my experience having been a judge for 22 years and being in a courtroom and everything. I'll say things like, I'm not telling you this to brag, but you know, people ask me if I'm going to win my case, and I laugh. I said, I if I could predict the outcome of a lawsuit, I would be in Vegas, and I'd be very wealthy.

25:17 You know, even slam dunk winners have a 20% chance of going south statistically. so what I do explain is that, you know, that we have a really great jury instruction. It's called two, it says two people witnessing the same event will often see or hear it differently. And a really good example of that is Fox News, MSNBC, and BBC. They can report on the same event and come to totally different perceptions of it. And I think hearing that from someone with my background means a lot. And I know the lawyers have told their clients this. I'm sure they have, but it just for some reason it seems to have a little bit more clout when a judge is explaining those things to them. The other thing I try to do in a mediation, which can't be done in court, I talk about how we're going to travel a two-lane highway to resolution, right? One lane's the financial lane, the other lane is the emotions lane. And I say to them, I'm not a licensed psychologist. I can't fix the emotions that you're feeling right now. I do want to hear them. I want to hear them because I think it's important for me to know what some of the motivations are of people in the case. But I'll be staring you into the financial lane. And I don't know where I came up with this analogy, but his it just came out one day. And it's been really interesting because people feel comfortable then kind of letting it all hang out and talking to me. And you can't do that in a courtroom,

26:42 Right? you know, and so I think feel like they've I've listened to them and I've given them perspective. there's, you know, if you if you go the classic mediation route, there's evaluative mediations where we give our own sense of the value or what the outcome of the case is going to be with no guarantees that that would happen. then there's just, you know, the communicating back and forth. so I try to mix it all up a little bit. mainly because these cases are very emotional. They're complicated, too. Probate law is not easy, you know, and so that's I'm finding it really rewarding quite frankly. because before I just my only job as a judge was to decide and record. That's all we do. We make a decision and we get it written down somewhere. but in mediations, I can think outside the box. I can I'll give you an example. There was a huge estate, millions, and it ended up at the end of the day, they were fighting over dad's liquor bottle collection,

27:50 Of course. You know, classic. Yeah. And it wasn't even filled with alcohol. They were just bottles, you know, and they were going to blow it up over that. And you know, I convinced one of the parties, we'll make an appointment at the house and you can come take pictures of the liquor bottle collection and then you can send it off to an artist who can superimpose you and your dad in front of it.

28:19 Oh no. And get it painted, you know. Now, could I have done that in court? No. And I said, "And then your siblings going to be so jealous because you're going to have this gorgeous painting with both you and your dad in front of his treasured liquor bar collection hanging over the fireplace and going to be mad that they didn't decide to do that, you know. So I you can do really interesting things like that. a lot of times there's fights over jewelry, so they I have them bring it in and we do an auction, you know. couldn't do that in a courtroom. or you know some people don't want to leave their home, right? They're it's like a conservatorship and they don't want to leave their home. Well, you figure out, you know, you start I can I've got a whole rolodex on my computer of services in areas all over LA County where you can go to a CAP center, a dementia care center during the day and then they're paying $80 for that day and then the 12-h hour shift at night for the caregiver and that keeps people in their homes. But, you know, again, I can't I can't rule that. I can't I couldn't make a ruling like that. there's I think it's important for your audience to know that there are three cardinal rules that probate judges follow. Okay. First of all, we are a court of equity. So there's a lot more discretion involved. so but one of our overarching duties is to protect vulnerable people or potentially vulnerable people. The second one is to honor someone a decedent someone who's passed. honor their intent to the degree that the rules of evidence allow you to.

30:04 Just because you had a conversation with your dad a month before he passed that he was leaving you the 65 Cadillac doesn't if it's not written down. and there's no way to hear that kind of hearsay evidence that the judge can't do anything about it. Because the third rule is we don't rewrite testamentary documents. We're not allowed to. It's it's the it's the classic basis for being overturned on appeal. where you're not making a credibility call. You're just saying, "Oh, you know, this is more equitable." Well, we can't do that

30:37 And won't. So, I think if I've when I've explained this to people, they get a better sense of what the courtroom's about or what they can expect in the courtroom.

30:46 And one thing I would I've always done, I did this with my own clients. I would take them to the courtroom a day or two ahead of time

30:55 Just to see so that they get a sense of what they can expect. I think that's genius advice. I've done same recommendation if you're going to go and you're going to argue and you have to appear and I say attorneys get them just to go, you know, ahead of time couple days before just to watch get the feel of the room.

31:11 Yeah. You know, get in the courtroom. That's another thing. Just get there through security. Some days it's a two-minute wait, some days it's a half hour wait. Just look and see what that's like and where you have to find your courtroom. And it's a long ways from your parking your car to the room so you're not late. You're not frazzled when you walk in the room. But to watch the judge and how things work, I that's just fantastic advice.

31:30 Well, no, I mean I was I represented the Los Angeles Police Department and I would make and these are these are police officers who have testified in court, right?

31:42 [clears throat] but I would make them go with me to watch the judge and to get a feel of everything. and I had a lot of them really complain about it. You know, you know, it was called, you know, city attorney houses field trip. You has she taken you on her field trip yet? But when you walk, it's a totally different atmosphere and ball game. Totally different. The seats are set up differently for council and clients. The judge is up higher. It's it has a feel that it unless you've been there is a is incredibly intimidating,

32:18 You know, and lawyers aren't allowed to roam around the room. You have to stay at the podium. you have to ask permission to speak. I mean, they are the well, they're federal judges. they have a life term, so they might feel a little more empowered than those of us that stood for election every six years, but No. So, yeah, I mean, and particularly if you have, what's the word? Like immature members of your family that are going to be in the courtroom. And I'm talking people under 30.

32:54 Yeah. Primarily these days [unclear] year olds oftentimes are like 25 years old when we were younger. You mentioned mediation and I think there's a there's a misunderstanding of the mediation in that many times c clients will go to mediation and come back say well we didn't resolve it but it's kind of like there's a delay reaction like the judge or the mediator and one side maybe went in thinking they had a slam dunk and they realized well there is no slam dunk the other one realized they thought they had a good case they realized well there's some big holes in their case and

33:30 Yeah I think decide two weeks later finally after mulling on that maybe we should negotiate and we and yet it sounds like the mediation failed because they went there and didn't resolve things but that's really the goal of mediation is it's the solution that may take a delay reaction. How do you how do you set that up or prep or you know prepare people for that reaction?

33:50 Well I do talk about it being if I'm not unable [clears throat] to resolve it I say I'm really I really regret this. I'm going to leave you with five things to think about.

33:58 And if you know, and I'll leave them with, you know, you've got this issue, that issue, this issue. You really need to think about it. and you know, actually what I try to do is I don't talk about a settlement or a demand. I say proposal for resolution

34:17 Because words mean a lot in these emotional cases. And, you know, I'll tell them, look, I get it. I'm sorry this is happening to you. It seems unfair, but you know, at this point in time, we got to figure out the financial end of it. You need to think about these things. I'm available to talk to by phone, you know, as a followup. What whatever you all need. And I find that I'll get an email from someone who says, I don't know if you remember this mediation six months ago, but we finally resolved it along the lines that you suggested,

34:49 Right? Yeah. So, it's a process. It really is. I think people are a little bit intimidated by the and I try to let them know they should be because it's serious and that one thing I stress in mediations is this is your opportunity to take control of your lives. Okay, you make the decision. I used to, it always fascinated me that people will come to me for a trial not knowing my background, not knowing the kind of person I was, and I make a decision of how they're going to live the rest of their lives, if they're going to have money from an estate or not. I just find that flabbergasting that you would turn that kind of control over to somebody, but they do all the time, you know, and I try to get them, you know, I try to get them thinking about how judges think

35:48 And, you know, and how they make decisions. They won't make a decision that's unique like we can do in a mediation,

35:58 Right? they won't think outside the box because that's a grounds for disaster. what you have to do is think inside the box. The case law, the statutes, the rules. so I you know I don't we have a program that I started it's co it's a lowcost program and if your estate is 1.5 million or less that's combination of property real property personal property investments you can get four hours by zoom for $1,100 a party which most mediators now I a lot of mediators are between the, you know, $800 and $1,200 an hour now. I'm keeping my rates low because, like I said, I find this rewarding and I'm helping people. but, and we have three judges and two certified probate specialists on our panel. And I'm finding I used to find that the 1.5 million or less cases were harder to settle than the multi-million dollar ones.

37:05 Can be. But this whole thing, if they get into it early and they get explained about the costs, you know, when I explain to them if well, you want to prove that mom didn't have capacity to write that will, that's a $200,000 attorney bill. And they look at me and they're shocked. I go, "No, it is."

37:25 And I'll start listing all of the costs. You know, a deposition now is not less than $7,500 a deposition. So you do five depositions where you're already close to a $50,000 mark. And then you have experts. Experts charge [unclear] an hour to review medical records and then to testify. and then you have your attorney's fees on top of that and subpoena costs. And when you start adding it up and you know deducting it off the total value of the estate, people start go, "Oh, wow. the math isn't in my favor, is it? Said, "No, it's not." so I think it's, you're right, it is a process. hopefully it resolves or they come back. but like I said, I've I can't tell you the number of emails I've gotten where I don't the ones I there's some where I felt so strongly they were making a huge mistake. I'd like a follow-up memo, you know, confidential memo just to sort of crystallize my thoughts, but it every mediator does it differently, I think. so but that's kind of my style. I'm not a screamer, you know. I don't have I no longer have the power of the robe. So I got to do a little cajoling and importunity. You know,

38:47 I'm sure one of the challenges is that oftentimes the attorney who was the right attorney to file a probate or the right attorney to file an objection quickly or efficiently is not the right one to take it through to trial litigation. Just as a business person, I can see the difference between the really good administration organizations and the litigators. litigators like the lions of the jungle and the administration people are more like scientists or procedure focused and I imagine there's a transition period right when you file and didn't expect any objections or didn't expect that objection all of a sudden and the good probe administrators have people they refer to they know the litigators they know when they're over their head they you know there's a point that they'll fight and then they turn somebody else but I also find there's certain who just don't want to give up the work you know for whatever reasons they you know to them they look at his business are going to get paid. They have a license. They're legally entitled to represent people.

39:42 Do you ever do you ever give advice, you know, now that you're not a judge and now or a retired judge and now that you're a mediator or do maybe this is your opportunity to talk about I think the importance of staying in your lane, especially as I think this business has gotten more complicated and more complex. because I can you must it must fall in your lap, right? They start off on one direction, all of a sudden now there's a whole different direction.

40:06 Yeah. there is a disconnect. I a really good probate litigator knows the evidence code. They know the particular evidentiary issues related to probate litigation. the court administrator not or the trust or will administrator executive the lawyer that doesn't go into court doesn't think that way. And that's too bad because you know, you know, because I'll be in I'll be in a mediation with them and they'll be talking and they'll be telling me stuff and I'll look over the lawyer and I go, "what's your theory of admissibility on that piece of evidence? What do you mean?" I go, "Well, it's hearsay." and I can't think of an exception that would apply. Can you? And all a sudden they realize half their case that they thought was so strong is going to get gutted, right? So, yeah,

41:14 It's a tough The reason I'm laughing is most trial lawyers are extroverted, okay? And they're flamboyant in their own way, okay? They stand out. what'll happen is the junior associate will be going into court for all the discovery motions and all the pleadings and everything and they'll look it up at a judge who is an introvert who is you know stays in their own lane you know likes an orderly life and rules from the bench makes decisions quickly. They'll say, "Oh, she's a great judge." And then the litigator really different impression of the judge because the lit the judge doesn't respond to someone who is not prepared or oh needs to be prepared in their what they're trying to achieve. I see in mediations too a lot of times the lawyers want to look good in front of their clients and they'll argue with me about what I'm saying and I go I find I take them in the hallway. I go, "This is not a law and motion calendar." You know, if you really want your clients to settle, you need to make sure they're listening to me or to you.

42:24 Yeah. Oh, I didn't realize I was doing that. Yeah. Yeah. You were. And that's the litigator, not the administrator. Yeah.

42:32 Because they know. and the other thing too, this is true of legal pleadings in general or writings. I will ask a group people is I'll ask you this, Mr. Gross. What does the E stand for in email?

42:49 Electronic. No, evidence. Oh, emails are evidence. Okay. And I'll get an email chain and I'll get all kinds of things and I'll go, well, that's not going to come in. That's, you know, whatever. so, knowing the rules of evidence, even if you're not a litigator, is really critical. because every email you write, every letter you write, every pleading you write is public once you've started litigation.

43:19 And so, you want to when you're writing something up, you want to know how it's going to read in court is how I look at it. I mean, I used to have horrible fights with lawyers when I was an attorney over discovery and we'd slam the phone down and then I'd write a really nice letter. I'm really glad we talked today. I think we've made a lot of ground rules and then they're trying they're mad at me because they said she was screaming at me about something and I go really I followed up with a letter and the judge goes yeah I read your letter but that was just trickery on my part a little bit I guess but

43:54 It's what you learn you know if you're in litigation to tighten things up well look same way as real estate agents I think all of us because we deal in probate subject to litigation sometimes it's starts off in administration and then it ends litigation and we're responsible to track all of our communication on our listings and on our transactions that if you're writing something in email, you might see that filed with a court, you might have to explain to a judge why

44:19 Oh, yeah. No. Why'd you call so and so this? So, if you don't if you don't want to do that in open court, you probably shouldn't put it in an email. Well, when I was growing up, you know, my mother never spanked us or anything. She would say things like, "Do you really want that on your permanent record?"

44:36 And as a little kid, I thought, "What's a permanent record? Is it Santa Claus list? I mean, you know, or am I is it going to be in a file cabinet somewhere?" And the irony of it is as a judge, everything I said or did or as a lawyer was written down,

44:49 Recorded. So, I have probably a pretty extensive permanent record. And I tell people this, if you don't want that letter on your permanent record or that say or that accusation, don't do it.

45:01 Yeah. you know, just Well, I just think today with so many cameras and social media, you better live your life like everybody's watching it because they somebody is probably and if you do something embarrassing, you're probably going to have to pay for it somehow and you might as well just act like you're being watched and use that hopefully to improve your character.

45:19 Yeah, you're absolutely right. Yeah. so, and I will tell you, we remember the really bad lawyers over the really good ones. If I remember a lawyer's name, it's because they made an impression, more than likely a negative one.

45:39 Yeah. Out of the hundreds of attorneys you saw in a day, remember somebody's name, it's probably not a good thing. You know, I it's funny. I go to court as a real estate agent, not many that do. And I do try to get the judge to see me because when I do have to say something, I want them to, you know, give me the same respect, you know, that I can get. On the other hand, it's like I want them to remember me that much because [laughter] they always remember the bad people. I don't know they remember the good ones. The good ones just kind of go through the court real quickly.

46:07 Yeah. The other thing I really avoid the phrase with all due respect. Yes. Because that means I have no respect. Yes. That's how the judge interprets it.

46:17 Yes. I had a lawyer who kept saying that over and over again. I thought it was really getting to me. So I did a little slashmark one day about how many times he said it. And it was 50 by 2 o'clock in the afternoon.

46:31 Wow. And I told him, I'm sorry, but this is not working. I'm, you know, if you really want me to listen, you know, cut that out of your vocabulary.

46:43 Well, I think that that goes back to the change of the times we're in where, you know, everybody has a take, everybody has an opinion, but you don't need to express your opinion in court. Like, that's not the appropriate venue. With all due respect, is saying, "Well, my opinion is different than yours." I don't think the judge generally cares to hear that. You might ask a question to get the judge to think differently. if you have the chance to, but to say with all due respect, you're really challenging their authority. And you know, I like I watched that sometimes I just nod my head and think what they're just digging themsel. I'll never forget I had a case where the other judge was like yelling at the judge in court on a probate on objections on a court sale. And I went out to the hallway and the attorney was newer and hadn't done much in the area in court probate and said, "Don't worry, the judge does not like that at all. Don't argue with the judge. Don't disrespect the judge. Don't interrupt the judge."

47:38 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you didn't I hate to say it, but I think well, there are studies out there that women judges get interrupted more by lawyers than male judges. Women judges get interrupted more women in general.

47:56 No, women judges get interrupted more by male lawyers than male judges do. Wow. Yeah. even on the court of appeal, they there was a study where they pulled transcripts for of court of appeal hearings and the male justices interrupted their female colleagues more often than

48:19 Ouch. Yeah. So, you know, and you know, every I had a judge who said, "Doesn't that make you angry?" And I go, "Well, you know, I if I if it made me angry, I'd be angry all the time, you know, and I and that doesn't hurt the other side, you know, but you know, I will I will do I'll use my stepmother voice or my judge voice and say, "Are we done now?

48:47 Submit it." And then I leave. you know, I mean, but yeah, it's there's a lot of inequities in the world and in the system, but I think overall we get the job done. But again, you're absolutely right. Comportment and court is really critical.

49:09 Really critical. And I would I would urge new lawyers and new real estate agents to go to court and just watch. I mean, if you think about it, the courthouse was the original reality TV.

49:23 Yes. Before radio, before television, people would go to the courouses to hear the cases because that was like a little drama.

49:34 Yes. Yeah. My father, [unclear], was an attorney, brand new, in Mosk back in the 19 early 1960s. And then while in court, he got picked by somebody to do a reality TV show, divorce court. And so he was like an attorney on a reality TV show. It wasn't reality in the sense it was stage but whatever it was. But the courtroom was so dramatic. Well, this guy's like an actor because it was, you know, the drama of the divorce litigation. And it is I find it fascinating. I used to go every day pre-COVID. I went every day to Mosk and saw the 8:30 calendar looking for a sale and it was just it just is fascinating. And now you can watch it on Zoom. I mean, there's no excuse not to as a real estate agent or attorney. no excuse not to see your judge a couple times before you go because it's free and it's available, you know, every day.

50:23 Yeah. Yeah. It's it's invaluable. You pick up so much you don't even know you're picking up, you know, 100%. Well, I've got a little long here. Not to interrupt, but I know we booked you and I really appreciate the chance to meet with you and learn about a working with judges in court appropriately, b the power, the opportunity of mediation. And I do think it's a lot of misunderstanding about it and it's underutilized because as you say to not mediate is a very expensive alternative and I want to thank you so much for being on today. If you're interested in reaching out to retired judge Mary Thornton House, she's part of ARC, which is the alternative resolution centers, and their website is ARC4 ADR. America alternative resolution centers for alternative I don't know ADR stands for, but I'm sure it's important, but and

51:15 Alternative resolution centers. Alternative but what's ADR? Alternative dispute resolution al for alternative dispute resolution.com. So, there's an email. If you get if you're watching this on audio, reach out to me. More than glad to forward the information. But, Judge House, thank you so much for being on today, spending time with us, educating us on the process. I really appreciate your time and your commitment to the industry and thank you so much.

51:38 Well, you're very welcome. I anything I can ever do to help, let me know. Okay. Fantastic. Well, thank you. And again, for the rest of you, this is Probate Weekly, we get together every week and have a new episode. You should probate attorneys or litigators, in this case a judge, vendors, try to learn how we can be better at serving our customers and serving the industry. If I can help anyway, please reach out at Bill Gross Probate on social media. And as always, make today your best day ever. Thank you.