Helping the Living Deal With Dying, with AfterLight Founder Rachel Donnelly

0:02 Welcome to Executorium Podcast and where we interview professionals all along the string of services to estates and to trusts from administrators for professionals. And the whole string comes from planning for the inevitable to what do you handle with afterwards? And today we're excited to have somebody who helps the living deal with dying. AfterLight founder Rachel Donnelly. Rachel, thank you so much for joining us today. Hi, Bill. Thanks so much for having me today. I'm so glad to be here. So, I know there's a range of services you offer, but kind of describe if you can offer like what role do you fit in the world for an administrator, executor estate? Yeah. So, I like to say we're like quarterbacks. We're like GPS for executors. We really come in and are skilled project managers to help them manage the unavoidable logistics of settling an estate. And when you're going through the probate process and that attorney gives you sort of that homework list, we're helping you to go through that homework list and do all of those things. So, from helping to shepherd them through that estate settlement process, assisting in being, like I said, that skilled quarterback in the legal aspects of settling a state, but then also a lot of the non-legal aspects of a state settlement. So, we really help with the full gamut of that. I work with a lot of attorneys. I work in the probate space and I find that they're now the great attorneys handle this and the ones who are average and below don't which is really handle the expectations of the work involved meaning they assume because they hire an attorney everything gets done for them and there are attorneys that will subcontract with vendors and manage the whole thing I imagine they'll call somebody like you to take on those tasks and but more often attorneys expect the client to handle that and the client expects attorney to and then as a result things don't get

2:04 Done. So, I guess the first question I'd ask for you is what percentage of work is coming from the attorney or another professional who's already engaged in the estate where they're really subcontracting that work and what percentage are the executors who know who know they don't want to do it or can't do it and need some help from the beginning. Yeah. So, about 90% of my clients come from attorneys. That makes sense to me. Yeah. It's it's just and because they are getting of course the estate opened. They're doing all of the legal work. We always say we will never take that place of the attorney. We're really helping to supercharge them in terms of doing the things and regardless of there are a lot of attorneys as you said will maybe get into some of the weeds but there are still weeds that you have to navigate regardless. Right. So, we're really coming in to help with that full gamut from soup to nuts, to make sure no stone is left unturned, but also to help you get back to your own life, keep things moving, and sort of air traffic control for the estate, you know, and a lot of times our empathetic detective work can help the attorney to really have a shorter runway in perhaps getting the estate opened.

3:24 And administered. Well, that's another area where I guess you fill in and I know I try to fill in as well in that the attorney is hired for their legal prowess, legal work. Now, again, the great ones have also great soft skills too. But the ones that struggle I find often because they don't handle the soft skills of communication, empathy, you use the word you used. But sometimes it's patience. Sometimes it's really just letting somebody vent on the phone for an extra 10 minutes. There's no value in it. legally or task-wise, but now the customer has kind of vented a bit and they're a little more able to move forward. So, talk a bit about the role you play on partnering with say attorneys on that soft skill. Yeah, that softer skill of we're going to get on the phone, right, and we're going to tell take that burden off them to call the bank or the financial institution and say those things that are really hard for some people to say, right, my loved one has died. Saying that out loud can be very emotional and then getting the push back. You know, you won't believe the number of companies that I call and they'll say, "Well, can you get the decedent on the phone?" Right? And you're going through that and that can be very emotional for clients. So, not only are we helping to maybe shoulder some of that burden, but then we're also helping to explain things in a way that attorneys they can use a lot of legal jargon as they do where we're sort of getting it down to brass tax terms of this is what they mean by that, right?

4:59 And then this is why they're asking that. And some of it may come out as very perfunctory and we're doing it this is why they're asking for this and sort of explaining sometimes deciphering those messages but then also doing in a way of tell me about your loved one, tell me about their life, tell me about other parts of their life. And that leads us to areas where we say, "Oh, they had an Etsy account where they sold, you know, they made Christmas ornaments, right? like, oh, maybe we need to figure that out of how to close that. Right? So, we're really zooming out to make sure that no stone is being left unturned. Every great probate and trust attorney I've ever met who's very busy and does really well is always looking for more people. They're always either hiring attorneys for the legal work and or hiring the parallegals for the semi legal work and or office staff. And imagine and because their rate that they have to charge is obvious is usually higher. They're usually in expensive real estate and just the nature of their business. And imagine in some cases almost anything you do is going to be a lower cost to the client and I don't think attorneys really want to make that money. They really want to deliver the customer at a good value. So talk a little bit about how do you integrate? I'm sure every attorney is different. I'm sure every time you work with a new one, their process looks different.

6:17 How do you integrate with the attorney in a way it's effective for serving the client, right? And that's why a lot of attorneys who do refer me over and over again say to the client, "It doesn't make sense for you to pay my hourly rate for me to open up the EIN or grab the EIN number from the IRS, right, to call Wells Fargo to, you know, fill in the blank. It that doesn't make sense. So, you're going to be it's going to be more cost effective for the estate and to you to have someone at a lower rate. even though I do think my skills are very valuable, our skills are very valuable, but it's just from that sort of ROI of that. So 100%. So, it's not only we're helping to keep track of all of the balls in the air, but then if we discover something, we're sharing that with the attorney. Just this morning, I was emailing an attorney for a client of mine and they said, "Oh, did you find out anything about their bank account? Do you have the death certificate?" So instead of them reinventing the wheel and starting those processes over, we've already done that ground work, right? So it saves them money on for of their fees as well. So sharing resources, keeping track of things creates a shorter runway for everybody involved, right? The kind of who want to bill and bill and bill are going to have somebody on staff to do these things and they're going to build for it. They want, but my experience is most of them really don't want to do that. they you know they can't not pay their staff, right? And their system set up to where anything they do they bill for. So when you say to them, can you get the death cert to a parallegal rather than a secretary or an administrator and the parallegal bills at like 200 bucks an hour and it's a minimum 15 minute even though it takes you only three minutes to do it or five minutes to order it online. They're going to charge you 15 minutes and $200 is 50 bucks. Yeah. And people get the bill and go 50 bucks the thing only costs 20. Well, it's not the it's not certificate, it's the time. And so, I imagine you have a list of things that at some point you set up and go through and you're doing them regularly and

8:20 Finding them regularly. So, talk a little bit about kind of the efficiencies and that you bring to the attorney. Yeah. And sort of going back, there are attorneys who will keep this in house, but you know, where we are in Georgia, so many of the probate courts are so backed up, right? So many of the staff within the law firm spend so much time just reaching out to the probate courts to find out hey what is the status of this right so yes so we have within our standard operating procedures we have a very broad brush of tasks that are implemented that we go from soup to nuts you know not only doing inventorying what the assets and debts were reaching out to companies finding out what paperwork work they need, facilitating like the EIN number for the estate, right? so all of these different things, maybe sh getting photos of items that are in the house. So we're, like I said, and being very broad in our practice, then we can share any of that shared knowledge with the firm and then they're like, "Oh, great. This has already been done. Let's let's add this. This is going to be included in whatever aspect of the estate admin process. Now I think you said 9% of your business comes from in particular attorneys.

9:38 Yeah. Yeah. So besides great podcasts with charming podcasters like me. Besides that, what are the type activities because other people on this call are professionals as well looking to you know develop similar business and obviously would like to network with you to the extent that you're offering complimentary services. Can you kind give a tip or two as to how you've built your business and or what you advise somebody in a in a related field what they would do to build a business? Yeah, absolutely. And you know going back you know so the other so that 90% that was me looking at 2024 and saying oh where did every client come from and sort of quantifying that and then the other side where a lot of financial advisors send clients to me in particular ones of course who are looking they've maybe gone through the estate planning process but they don't feel like they've got the system set up to share with their executor. So then we're doing sort of that reverse engineering of let's help somebody get a system set up whether that's you know a folder or a binder or a digital vault to make sure that whoever is going to be in charge has the tools in their toolbox in order to you know to complete that. But then answering your question about when you're getting a business started and how did I you know sort of get here and what advice would I give?

10:58 It's finding really identifying who your ideal client is. So, and I have many different sort of client avatars and then finding out who are those ancillary professionals where my clients are interacting with and then me going and sort of parking my bus in front of wherever those ancillary professionals are. So whether it's financial advisors, of course, attorneys, but then others like aging care managers, senior move managers, patient advocates, right? insurance professionals, real estate agents, of course. So those are the other sort of potpourri of ancillary professionals that I've built sort of a great rolodex of that we refer clients back and forth to each other. So, it's finding what your defining what your client avatar is and then finding who are those professionals who are going to help fill potentially that pipeline for you. And it took a lot of I had to kiss a lot of frogs to figure out what that was. But once I did, I sort of said, you know what, if you don't fit in that bucket, then I'm I'm not going to spend time there, right? M I figured out where who's filling my client pipeline and that's where I spend my time and try to build relationships. It's interesting to use the analogy of kissing frogs. I think often times we feel like that's hard work but it's the princess that kisses frogs to find the prince. So you're kind of identifying yourself as worthwhile. I mean and I think that when we just take business from anybody gives it to us, we're devaluing our own contributions and our own value. So talk so I know you work with multiple avatars and you go from you know a gift of a certain amount of time to a more involved project you know is there a certain consistent size estate that you work with or does that very you know it's it's very that's very nebulous right I have all different sort of levels of estates and there's not a you know certain size that I work with over and over again of course my our

13:03 Fees are paid can be paid out of the estate. So this is an estate administration expense. So there need to be it needs to be a solvent ex estate of course to if you're going to pay the assets out of the estate. But a lot of my avatars it's that same sort of thing. They are an overwhelmed a lot of time adult child. They're working professionals. They have inherited an estate where see both sides of the coin. They had a will. didn't have a will. But there's still that time tax that comes into play of them still having to figure out assets, debts, what other professionals to bring in, getting the house cleaned out, filling out all the paperwork, right? There's still that I call it a time tariff. I know tariffs, we don't want to talk about that right now, but I still call it that. There's still the you still have to do the things, right? So, it's our value comes in to help really streamline, prioritize, and triage tasks to help get the estate settled faster. we also say that we help find assets for the estate all the time. We find lost life insurance policies, right? We find brokerage accounts or unclaimed property, right? So, we're also helping to add value to the estate as well.

14:24 Well, and also just to go back to one thing you mentioned being an expense of the estate. You know, one of the most challenging cases is where estate has multiple errors, multiple beneficiaries, and there can be infighting, there can be nitpicking and part of it just a lack of communication. I find if you if you're forward with your communication regularly, things are okay. If they don't hear from you, that's when things fall apart. Hiring professional like you would be both helpful in terms of avoiding some of that conflict and then it's build to the state. meaning if I'm one of five heirs I'm only paying really one fifth of it but also everybody's getting better service not just me so I think that's where the professional relationship becomes really valuable 100%. So we've talked so far really just about the after loss consulting but you also do legacy planning which means you before obviously the better the plan the better result in most cases. Talk a little bit about your legacy planning offerings. Yeah. So, you know, of course, in my own experience as being an executor and now having worked on over a hundred estates, I see the same blind spots, right? People spend so much time sort of with a documentbased strategy of their estate plan and not really thinking through have I selected the right person for the job whether that's my power of attorney or my trustee or my executor and do they have again the tools in the toolbox to fulfill that job? Do they have the time, the organizational prowess, right?

15:49 And do they know where my stuff is located? So, when I look at it in sort of reverse engineering that process, I'm helping the testator or whoever is creating that estate plan and say, let's create an organized system through the lens of this executor, trustee, whatever is going to have a part-time job. do they have the job description and the tools to be able to execute that job. Right? So, it's looking at it through that lens and not leaving them with a scavenger hunt and figuring all things out that takes time, money, and effort. So, that's what we're trying to do. Let's get organized. Let's create a list of your assets and debts. Where do you keep your important paperwork? What is important to you to happen? What are your funeral wishes? So, we're really being a lot more in a broad brush in terms of trying to look at the things that I see people trip on up on after they've lost a loved one and that I tripped up on personally. And I imagine as you select who it is to be the head of the administr the successor trustee or the administrator of the state, the executor estate that the wrong person to do the work might be the right person to oversee the work and delegate to a firm like yours. And so I think one of the things that you open up the possibility is to say, "Yeah, you know, the son who's really sharp, runs a big business, he really knows his stuff, but he's way too busy to chase down deserts and this and that, bank accounts. He's the right guy to be the administrator and then delegate to you those details because that's what they do and they're running their business all day long.

17:27 They have good staff and they have good systems and procedures and they oversee that, right?" So it kind of creates a new possibility. Absolutely. Yeah. And so we're helping to be that quarterback for them. So, you know, I had a client recently who he's an attorney out in Oregon and his aunt named him the executor and he was thousands and thousands of miles away, had no really understanding of the dayto-day and what her asset was or her estate was made up of. So by him hiring me where we were able to really do all of that leg work that he wasn't privy to wasn't you know knowledgeable of and could it do the boots on the ground here where we are to really administer the estate but can approve it and be a safety check and a fraud check and all those kinds of things and then assure the family that somebody's you know in charge it's related to them. So and then lastly I know you have gift services and that makes a lot of sense. I would imagine if I was an attorney working with you regularly, I know that my life would be easier when you're involved. I know it's like when I sell probate real estate, if it's an attorney or fiduciary that I work with, my life's a lot easier than if it's somebody who's new. That's why I refer them. In their case, giving them a gift might be money out of their pocket, but at the same point, it might be helping them save a lot of time and frustration and give better results if they bring you in from the beginning. talk a little bit about the gift and who's the who's the best candidate to offer that gift to a family member. Yeah, I've had a lot of people especially gift our services to co-workers, right? Who's who's lost a loved one and you know, as I say, they don't need another casserole or a flowers or a ham, right? They need logistical administrative support. So a lot of times companies or colleagues are coming and saying we want to do something for our person in our workplace and they're you know buying this so that they can give them some peace of mind and some support that's really going to maybe help move the needle in their time of grief. so

19:31 That's that's a lot of the people who purchase that and like I say, I think it's a great gift. Even if people just get on the phone with me for an hour and say, I don't know what attorney to call, I don't know what real estate agent to use. I don't know what have you. Then we're sort of helping them to turn them in the right direction. Now, separate from your function as the founder CEO of AfterLight, you're also I believe co-founder of organization professional of after loss services, which we've interviewed your co-founder and other members of that network. Talk a little bit about PALS and who might be a professional that might want to reach out to you and explore that relationship and see if there's a good fit for you. Yeah, it's it's been such a great partnership to find other and it was in this instance women who had similar businesses to mine before I even knew what to call myself and we found each other and said, "Oh, you're you're trying to do what I'm doing. Let's start networking and create a community." And it was very informal when we started and our first sort of order of business is what do you call yourself when you're at a networking thing? You're on the soccer field meeting other parents, right? what do you say you do? And so coming up with the terminology of an after loss professional was very important to us to really claim our stake and this is our budding niche and then to add that name to it, create the space. Then we got people who started reaching out to us, oh could you teach us how to do what you do? And we really felt it was important to carve out that slice of the pie for us to create a community that empowers professionals to be trained to leverage resources to leverage other affiliates and community members to start grow and add to their business. So there are people who have gone through our after-loss training program that are sort of standalone like me who are after loss services and legacy organization but then other ancillary professionals are starting to take our

21:35 Training program. Senior move managers is a huge one, professional organizers, aging care managers, certified senior advisors. So like it's sort of those ancillary professionals who want to add these our services as a menu item to their existing business. We're seeing a lot of growth in that area. And to me it makes sense that and this is not my business but I can see real estate agents who ask all the time how to get into probate and I always tell them well probate is a big niche. You know think of probate as after afterlife real estate but within that there's a lot of little niches and same with your business. And so I have one that's I really try to hyperfocus on the legal with fiduciaries and attorneys, but I can imagine a real estate agent who really wants to get into more integration with people on the emotional level and the family and all that. And then they could bring you in either using that training to enhance their business and or bring you in for certain cases as a vendor to help support their clients. Yeah, absolutely. I sort of liken after loss professional training to getting an MDA, a master's in death administration. So wow, it's sort of that additional training. So whether you're just integrating and having more knowledge in whatever practice that you have or adding this as another service, I think you can do both. So PAL is the umbrella organization that again Rachel's one of the co-founders on that kind hits the professional afterlife industry and that you want more information, they have education and membership there. But the company that she's founded we talked about today is AfterLight, which is about afterlife services as well as legacy planning and then they offer a gift option as well. Rachel also has a book on Amazon late to your own funeral. I love the name. It's fantastic. Tell me a little bit what inspired the book and what's your feedback been so far? Yeah. No, I've I've been I it's it's really surreal.

23:31 I've gotten some really fantastic feedback. I've gotten some media interest and so yeah, I felt I had all these stories in my head that I needed to share with others, right? I was seeing, as I sort of alluded to earlier, the same blind spots that clients were coming to me with that their family left them with that either they didn't know that they needed to do ahead of time in terms of that organization or they just didn't have time or they just didn't had done had done hadn't done any estate planning at all. So, I thought, you know, I'm seeing these same issues. people are not getting the message that this is the biggest gift you can give your family is a wellexecuted exit strategy. So why can't I put this in more under maybe understandable terms add a little bit of humor make it a little irreverent and fun to read but also give those actionable steps. so I just felt I just had a lot of fun writing it. and just felt like I said, I had all these stories that I just wanted to share with others. Stories that were sometimes too strange to be fiction. Well, look, Rachel, obviously, we gone forever. We have spoke before and I've always enjoyed our time together. Thank you so much. If you want to get more Rachel Donnelly, AfterLight is the company. myafterlight.com is the website, and there you can get in touch with her, schedule a consult if appropriate, and reach out. Rachel, thank you so much for joining us today.

25:03 I really appreciate it. Oh, Bill, it's such a pleasure. I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for what you do and for having me today. My pleasure. Thanks so much. And for the rest of you, this is the Executorium podcast. Executorium is a service designed for executors of trusts to be more efficient. And so, if you go to Executorium.com, you'll find there's four main tiles on the front. There's a directory of providers where you can find Rachel or me appropriate. You simply browse, put your county in, you'll see the providers that are local. And then great directory of government resources, state and local. If you're looking for forums or ways to get birth certificates, death certificates, whatever is appropriate that you need to get and then great learning articles and learning tabs as well for more information. you can continue the conversation with a Facebook group, the Executorium Podcast. I'm Bill Gross on social media at @billgrossprobate. And as always, make today your best day ever. Thank you so much everybody.