Conflict Resolution for Families and Executors, with Kimberly Best

0:01 Welcome to the Executorium podcast. I'm Bill Gross @billgrossprobate on social media. We get together and introduce you to different vendors involved with the Executorium directory of services helping executors, administrators, navigate through the difficult waters of resolving estates and trusts and such and hopefully doing so with a minimal amount of legal entanglement. Now, often times it's hard to close the barn doors after the cows got out, but for those of you who are involved with differences between heirs, nagging over beneficiaries, who gets what and how these things get resolved, one solution besides slugging it out at court and wasting money and time and energy unnecessarily is to find somebody to help you mediate and resolve the conflict. We're really lucky to have today here from Best Conflict Solutions, Kimberly Best. Kimberly, thank you so much for joining us. my pleasure. Thank you, Bill. Now, I know you do a lot. You're an author and you have kind of a wide range of services, but let's talk specifically about people who may be involved in estates, trusts, probates. They're in charge of the event. They're having difficulty with family members resolving things. What kind of services do you offer at that stage? at that stage, before, during, and after, the option of mediation, which is sitting down and having a conversation that understands where everyone's coming from, number one, and number two, designs a path forward that kind of meets the needs to some degree of everyone, but keeps from having the potential for disconnect in relationships or a further breakdown of relationships because as you are aware and your listeners too, these are the topics that we're not prepared for, right? Like you don't know to know what to do in this stage of life and everyone has an opinion based on their own values and they often just abut against other people's opinions. So, a mediator will help you all sit down and work through options that honestly, Bill, aren't just your

2:03 Way or my way, but all the things in between that might be better ways. You know, in LA County often when there's conflict, I would say almost every time there's conflict, the judge will require mediation. And I do know that in LA County there's a free service that's offered through one of the bar associations. And I certainly don't have anything negative about that particular person or process other than I imagine everybody's approach to this service is different. I always feel like just cuz you don't like chocolate ice cream doesn't mean you wouldn't like vanilla ice cream or cherry vanilla ice cream. So, talk a little bit about your approach to mediation in these kinds of conflicts. So, while some of us do approach the our styles are different. So, some are more legalistic and more about me telling you what's best for your life, there are also ethics around mediation that all mediators are supposed to follow. And first of all, the conversation is confidential. So, it's an opportunity to be honest about the past, honest about the needs moving forward, and honest about your responsibility without it being able to be a used against you in court. So, what happens in mediation stays in mediation, and that's very freeing. The second principle of mediation is that it is I'm a neutral. I'm impartial, unbiased, and neutral, but what I say is I'm omni-partial, which means I'm a fierce advocate of every single person in the room, including myself, coming out as good as possible with the best outcome possible. And that that works. It's just we're for everyone being able to have a good resolution. And then another tenet of mediation is that it's about self-determination.

3:49 I do not know what's best for you. I haven't walked your walk. I don't live in your shoes. I don't have your DNA. But together, getting people's different input, ideas, and perspectives, we can move forward in a way where people can agree. And almost always there's some degree Well, always there's some degree of moving forward more positive, even if that is understanding what the other one's perspective is a little bit better. Because in conflict we make up a story about other people's motivations, about the outcomes they want, about why and how they're going into it. And literally having a discussion always clears up whatever misconceptions we have, especially if we're willing to listen. Seems to me in many cases the conflict has been created through years of that, of perception of the other party. Maybe they haven't seen them in person for 20, 30 years. And I would imagine, I'm not a professional in this area, but I do a bit of mediation as a salesperson, by definition, that if you can humanize a situation and put some, you know, reasons besides just they're evil as to why they might feel a certain way, doesn't mean it'll resolve the matter, but at least it creates a little bit of softening towards moving people together. Is that a fair assessment that you can humanize That's a beautiful assessment. I mean, that's more than fair. It's actually exactly what happens. It does. usually to the extent that bigger the resolution, the bigger we're able to really understand that someone is more than the story that we made up about them.

5:26 And in really entrenched conflicts like you described, we fail to see the whole human. We only see them in that conflict, and we label the person as the problem. So, Uncle Joe is the problem because when in mediation we identify what the problems are. Uncle Joe won't let go of this, Or "Uncle you know, because we can't resolve for people, but when we identify the problems, we can resolve for them." And I mean, it's kind of common now that we identify everybody as the whole problem and completely forget that people are more than their worst moments. As I too am worse than my worst mo- I mean, more than my worst moments, and we all have those worst moments. It seems like once you can identify the problem as not the person, then there's a potential to solve it, right? I know if you're fighting over a particular heirloom, if the problem is like you say, Uncle Joe, there's no resolution cuz Uncle Joe will always be bad. But if the problem is, "Well, there's only one heirloom and both parties want it, what can we do? Can we share it? Can we buy it out? Can we pair it out?" You know, at least those are three possibilities and we can find a range of options, but as long as Joe's a problem, you're never going to fix Uncle Joe. He is Uncle Joe, no matter what you do, right? Perfectly said. Perfectly said. Thank you.

6:45 So, the other part is, you know, the truth is, you should never be needed but for the fact that we as human beings get in the way of ourselves. I mean, at some level. Now, if Uncle Joe is the problem, then it's Uncle Joe's problem. But if normally it's me and Uncle Joe are the problem and we've somehow in our communication not been effective that lead to a situation. so, why do you know, you must have not to put you out of business here, not that you could. What do you think it is? Like, what is it that happens do you think that causes the need for two people who are related, who theoretically should be amongst the closest in the world to each other, to be so diametrically set against each other? What do you think that is? And I'm not that way. My I have two siblings, we get along. We're not the best of my sister and I aren't the closest, but we have good relations. My brother and I are very close. You know, what do you think that's that causes that? The short answer is our brains. And the second answer to that, because our brains are very reactionary and we tend to believe those reactions. And in the absence of information, our brains are hardwired to make up a story. And I love to talk and teach on conflict and conflict management and how it comes about and all the shortcuts our brain takes that lie to us, but we tend to believe it if we're not testing out the theories of the story we're making up. The second part of that is almost none of us have learned how to effectively manage conflict. We haven't.

8:16 We've learned how to find who's right and who's wrong. We've learned blame. We've learned that if we're the problem, we're going to get in trouble, so we will stay we will avoid having responsibility or accountability so that we don't get in trouble. And I ask people like how did you learn conflict and what happened to you when you were a little and you were the source of conflict? Because that's how you learn conflict, right? And how does what you learned as being the recipient of being the conflict, being the problem, influence how you manage conflict today? Because most of us just haven't learned that there's a toolbox full of skills, like tons and tons of skills that that with just practice help us just easily navigate relationships that before maybe we didn't think we could at all. I'm guessing that one of the key tools in your toolbox or that you advise people to develop to avoid conflict or resolve conflict is listening. I'm guessing that one of the biggest challenges, one of the biggest gas throwing gasoline on the fire is not listening and one of the best ways to let the fire burn itself out is by listening. I know in sales we say that, you know, selling isn't telling, selling is asking questions.

9:34 I imagine mediation is similarly asking questions to get people to kind of get the poison out and then also to help clarify what is they want. Is that a fair assessment? I mean, I kind of want to make you a mediator because that's exactly right. We have to have an opportunity to let people vent what their problem and their story behind the problem is. And I say that consistently when people feel seen, heard, validated, and valued, then you can move on to solutions. And you're right about listening and I want to speak to that very quickly. Most people go into a conversation either listening for what the person is saying that is wrong or forming their own rebuttal or sitting there quietly looking at their watch waiting their turn. And I ask people to listen for what is right, listen for what they agree with, listen understanding that this is someone else's perspective and their perspective is their truth. And then in addition to that I say if you had that person's whole entire background and story, if you had that person's DNA, you would be thinking exactly like them, right? So, just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm against you. It just means I'm different than you. But our brains make us think that someone disagreeing with us means that they're a Tyrannosaurus about to eat us alive and that's just not true.

10:59 You know, one of the people I really studied, now he's become a bit of a political hot potato, is Elon Musk. Now, separate the politics from the engineering and business. He know, unquestionably is one of the greatest businessman of our time and engineers of our time. I was listening to him on a discussion about, you know, his plan to go to Mars. What strikes me about him is he has this habit when people ask him a question, he like stops and you can see him spend time list you know, thinking through the way he just heard and forming an answer. I don't think I've you seen anybody who is as deliberate a listener as one of the men who must be again, you can take you can argue about the politics of him, you can't argue about the business, you can't argue about the engineering. He has some of the smartest people in the world. He got there partially by listening to other people and at some level, at least in his business, unquestionably working with other people by making sure they feel validated. And I think what you said there is one thing to validate somebody, you know, of course I know I validated you. Of course I love you. But if I don't demonstrate it, I'm going to be in that argument with my wife the rest of my life, which it feels like I am, but that's another topic. So those points So say again, what are the four things you said? They had to be heard, seen, valued, And I used to say seen, heard, and validated, but then I realized that valued is well, you know, is is very important in building the safety to be honest. So the process behind that is if you want someone to be honest with you have to create an environment that is safe, right? So who's going to come talk to you if they know that every time they open their mouth, you're going to roll your eyes, or you're going to tell them why they're wrong, or And again, these are just skills we haven't learned. And people pick them up pretty quickly once they understand the dynamic that's not working or and not working for them. But it really helps to have a third-party neutral. I always say I am I am good at my job and I'm not being egotistical. I've worked really hard to become good at my job, unless it's my own conflict. Because when it's

13:05 When it's our When it's our own conflict, our brains play these tricks on us that are all about protecting ourselves and make us hard to see the big picture. And I think that's the kind of one of the best things that mediator do is help both sides see the other side's big picture as well as your own big picture, and then you begin to see this big overlap where the pictures really have a lot in common. You know, on my podcast I often talk about marital advice to singles because I've been married 38 years and I just feel like if you last that long, at some point you get credit. Whether or not you're good or bad at it, you know, I made it one more day, I get credit for that. and I'll tell people I am I know all the right things to be married. I know all the right things to get married. Do I do them all? No. That's a different discussion on what you do and how you act because your emotions get involved and you get triggered and you're tired or you're hungry or whatever your personal battles are. So, that's got to be a challenge. And I think the other thing I would ask you is you know, this these skills clearly relate to every relationship. I mean, I'm sure it feels nice for you to put on a business suit and go into a meeting and people are paying you and they listen to you and they pay you respect and you resolve a conflict, but you go home with whoever it is in your life, your family, your friends, you're just you again. You don't get that respect. That must be a challenge to deal with that outside of that room.

14:30 Yeah, I mean, you're talking about the difference between our work person and our home person and I have a friend who told me a long time ago, I know some of the best leaders in the workforce who are just terrible spouses or parents, you know. I think I think the best we can do is find our authenticity and bring the best version of ourselves to both places, but I also think in that particular case, it's about valuing the family as much as we value the job. And not taking the family for granted. One gives us a paycheck and one is really challenging, but the one that's really challenging is our opportunity for growth. And it's just sometimes a matter of choosing relationships over money, but that's a whole 'nother story that I don't think you want to get into. We won't go down that rabbit hole. No, but I do I do think the point is that these are skills you're talking about that are applicable to all relationships and I think Absolutely. One of my favorite things about mediation is that people come out just from going through the process with better skills. And so many of my clients will apply them what they learned or agreed to in mediation and it works until it doesn't and agreement will work until it doesn't. It doesn't work forever all the time and you go back to the table and renegotiate. So 1 year, 2 years, 3 years later they come back and say, "Okay, we're stuck in this again.

15:51 How do we move forward?" Because the process works, we just need help going through the process until we get really good at it. One of the challenges I imagine is when you have two people in conflict. I know this is true in marriage that when either party says, "You know, we need help. We need a third party to resolve this." The other party hears, "Oh, I'm wrong and you're right. you need somebody to help fix me and I resent that person without even knowing who they are." It's very difficult in my experience watching friends through this period to get their spouse on the same page just to find a independent third party. So, what's the process you'd recommend for somebody, let's say, in and we're talking about executors and in trusts and estates and such? What's the recommendation when they're in a conflict with their brother, sister, cousin, uncle years of conflict, years of crusted over difficulty? How do they get somebody to agree to a third party? Because the you as a mediator are only as effective as both parties buy into your authority, right? Yeah. No, you're right. It is sometimes hard to get both parties or all parties to the table. And the reason that I've found that to be true for the most part is fear blame. which is why even in marriage you can have a hard time getting people to go to a third party that they'll be named as the one who's right or wrong. fear of someone taking sides and also fear that they really are the problem. Like who wants to find out that that what they've been doing is contributing to it. So, everybody comes into mediation a little bit nervous and a little bit scared and I always build into my letters to people when they're, you know, coming on board that the process is not about blame.

17:39 Blame is not a solution. It's just not. It's about how do we move forward better. And yes, we do have to deal with the past, but most people ask me how is conflict management mediation different than counseling? And while counseling very often is is going back to the root of a problem and individual personalities, conflict management and mediation not so much because it's not about mental illness or though that can be tied in some that can play a part in the actual conflict, but it is more we are here in this moment. What do we want the future to look like and how do we get there? And I think if you have a conflict manager mediator who is, you know, trying to decide who's right or wrong, you go find a new one. Because there is no place and you know, who are we to judge? We don't have the whole story. So, when I train in mediation, I tell people if you think you know what's best for someone else as a mediator, that that's literally arrogant. Because we have a snapshot of people. We have a snapshot of people in their worst moment and they're a motion picture and we do not know their whole story. So, we help people figure out for themselves what it is they need they need.

18:56 Now, in addition to being a practitioner, you're an author as well in the subject. I am. Yes. want to talk a little bit about your book? Yeah, so I was a registered nurse for about [unclear] years. I still have my license. I worked in trauma and then as I became a mediator and saw all the unclosed loops in decision-making between being 30 and being 69 or whatever the point is, where we have decisions that we haven't made because we haven't talked about end of life. So, my book is the legal decisions that need to be made, the health care decisions, celebration of life decisions. I believe that your life is your story, and your story is your legacy, and we want to write that well all the way to the end. So, how to leave your story as your legacy and leave the ending that you want. So, I also have a chapter on mitigating for conflict because it's not uncommon to have conflict in families, and then lastly, how to use mediation as a tool for having these conversations. We have to be able to talk about the end of life and the fact that we're going to die because in the absence of that, people are losing quality of life, and that matters to everybody.

20:20 So, the website, if you scroll down, there's a buy now button as well. She has speaking engagements, and you can get reviews and all that other good stuff. Best Conflict Solutions is the website. Thank you for sharing that information. And I think that, you know, part of my, you know, thinking about this is there are people going to watch this who are executors, administrators, currently in conflict. Well, that's the time you realize how the pain of not making good decisions about your own life is, meaning George who started Executorium scratched his itch because he went through the process of cleaning up some trusts, and said, "This is a difficult process." And came up with this as a solution. But, for those of us individually, when we're in the midst of our parents or whoever's other trust we're involved with, it's a good time to say, well, what's it going to be like when I pass? What am I leaving behind? And how to live forever might be a great tool to help you ask those difficult questions now when you have your full faculties and more resources to answer those questions than later. So, Kimberly, thank you so much. And again, to contact you, I think the best the website is bestconflictsolutions.com. And on there you have a some online courses. You want to talk a little bit about the resolution online courses? Well, there will be more coming soon, but right now I have a conflict management for healthcare professionals on there, which is like a 7-hour video with a workbook and content. And then I have one on emotional intelligence and conflict. Along that contains an assessment of your emotional intelligence and it and again, why how we show up in conflict matters for running an organization, for relating to people, for everyday work and that sort of thing. So, I'll be doing one for HR soon.

22:06 And then I'll be doing a mediation practitioner program on there as well. Well, you're certainly busy, Kimberly. I appreciate taking time out today to join us on Executorium Podcast. Thank you so much. My pleasure. Thank you, Bill. And for the rest of you, this is Executorium Podcast where we interview practitioners who help executors in estates, trusts work through that. At Executorium Podcast, we continue the conversation on Facebook. There's a Facebook group called The Executorium Podcast. Feel free to put your questions there. If you're looking for referrals for vendors or advisors not on the Executorium directory, and then the Executorium is a great resource for executors and people managing trusts. There's four main blocks. There's the directory of vendors. I'm on that. Kimberly's on that. Directory of government resources, where you can get forms for filing legal information, getting information and such. And then there's our articles and learning, great resources to learn as well about the process. You'll find them of interest to you as well. So, again, I'm Bill Gross. And again, thank you, Kimberly. Thank you to all those who listen to Executorium podcast. Please, if you like this, like it, and subscribe. And as always, make today your best day ever. Thank you so much.