What Is a Well-Executed Estate Plan? with Beverly Hills Attorney David Soffer

0:00 Wish I was promoting something. Well, we're going to promote you, David. This is Bill Gross, and I'm a real estate broker. I work with estate planning attorneys. I get asked all the time, who should I talk to for estate planning? And today we're lucky to have somebody who is if you're going to pick the profile of a website, at least. Now, maybe it has nothing to do with his business, or he has 50 websites, but you go to his website, sofferlawgroup.com, and has areas of practice, estate planning and administration, meaning he's a specialist, and that's what you look for because people specialize in something do a good job. David, thank you for joining us today on our podcast. Thanks for having me, Bill. Appreciate it. Now, as you know, so many of your colleagues do, you know, estate planning and like two, three, five, or 20 other things, and it seems to me that the law's so complicated just to keep up with one, if you do it well, is going to keep you busy. How did you end up making the decision to focus deeply and solely on estate planning and the related administration? It wasn't a direct choice at the beginning of my career. I tried some other practice areas, and a little bit of process of elimination. I spent time at the beginning of my career in some of the largest law firms in the world, and in one I was at in civil litigation, in another I was in mergers and acquisitions and corporate work, and in both I felt there was a bit of bureaucracy working at the big firms. I felt like there was a bit of difficulty in being myself and being able to specialize in something. And so, while I was at my second stop, I had exposure to trusts and estates. This is where I was on a deal with the Frank Sinatra estate, and I had a crossover deal with one of the T&E attorneys who was doing a nonprofit deal, and at the same time I was newly married, and my in-laws were doing a round of estate planning, and said, "Oh, we have the new lawyer in the family. Why don't you come and give us your advice?" So, all of these things

2:03 Kind of lined up at the same time where when I decided it was not big firm life for me. I wanted to see something that I could do on my own, something that I could have individuals as clients, and so the tax side of what we do made a lot of sense to me. I've always had a mathematical bent. So, all of these things lined up to a practice in trusts and estates. It seems to me once you find your niche or voice, everything kind of lines up with it, and it becomes kind of high verse. So, it sounds like I experienced that in the same you experienced that as well. So, one of the common one of the common misperceptions is that if I have an estate plan, I will avoid litigation. Like, nobody can sue me. Now, I know it's not true just because I deal with estate matters that are being litigated. So, I know it's not true. Talk about that. How often And also, when people ask me, I say, if there's enough money involved, somebody will always sue you. I just assume that's what it looks like, but you're actually the practitioner and do estate plans. I presume they don't all end up in litigation. What's it look like from your side? How common is it when somebody passes that there is litigation? And then what are the best things, besides having a plan, what are the best things in a plan to help minimize or eliminate litigation? Yeah, you're absolutely right. Having an estate plan does not necessarily dissuade or eliminate the threat of litigation. It's a very cliché thing that people say, "Somebody can sue for anything at any time." It's It's It is While it is true, what we can do is make it very hard for them to be meritorious or even an attorney to take their lawsuit. So, with an estate with an estate plan, somebody, for the most part, can't come in and say, "I don't like what I got, or I don't like that I didn't get, and so I'm suing." They have to have a reason. The law's job is to uphold the I'm going to call him the client, the testator, the trustor, the person's wishes, the decedent's wishes.

4:00 And in this case, you have to have a reason to say why this isn't the decedent's wishes. And so, it can be things like fraud, duress, mental incapacity, undue influence. All of those things can be the beginning of a lawsuit. What we do in our practice is we practice prophylactically. So, we try to anticipate if those things may be alleged, or even if they're not, because we don't know which ones they will be, we try to go through steps to make sure that we can address those claims if and when they come up. For instance, this isn't a practice that every estate planning attorney has, but our practice is we want to view the signing, even if we're not physically present. We want to watch it on video to see that nobody is over somebody's shoulder saying what to do, or telling them to sign it. We want to make sure that they have their faculties, they understand what they're doing, they follow the formalities. This is the way that we get in front of those types of claims. I love that. You know, I've I've never a lot of these interviews, I don't think I've ever heard anybody say that so clearly that you want to be at the signing. I know people use mobile notaries, and you know, there's there's no reason why you can't FaceTime or Zoom or with technology these It's free. I mean, for the most part, so why would you not Well, and have And now you can record it with their permission, obviously. Now you have a record of it.

5:21 You can record what's going on behind the scenes, who's talking to them, and have a record. You can't say there wasn't somebody there, but you can say, "I didn't You know, we videoed, didn't appear to be there. We don't hear anything." Wow, that's phenomenal. So, those are some proactive, as you said, prophylactic things. I don't know I would use that word, but if I use it doesn't sound as professional as when you do. That's part of you being a better than those attorneys, I guess. Let's talk about the flip side, though. What are some of the most common mistakes you must see people come to you who had an estate plan elsewhere, when it comes time to administer that they're having problems, they're getting sued or objections or whatever? What do you see as one or two of the most common mistakes that are made in preparation of estate plans? So, there are two types of lawsuits in this field. There are the what are called contests, the I don't like the estate plan because, or it is not a valid estate plan because, as opposed to the administration, I don't like what the trustee is doing or what the executor is doing. The plan itself is fine. I think your question has to do with the first one rather than the second one. In the first one, the

6:23 Let me make it easy. I'm going to ask the next question. You can guess what that's going to be, but go ahead. Sure. Well, the answer to the second one, I don't like the trustee's what the trustee is doing is listen to us. Follow our guidance. Help make this a collaborative effort, and we will keep you out of trouble with that that type of thing. Trustees have a lot of discretion, and there are all sorts of missteps that can be that can take place, but that isn't the issue with the estate plan. The issues with the estate plan that I can see, well, are some legal and some non-legal. I think it's pretty standard practice and best practice to have what's called a no contest clause in your estate planning documents. That means that if somebody does sue and does not win, they are kicked out from inheriting. That's a good dissuasion for lawsuits. Those are in every one of our documents. They are not ubiquitous, even if they're best practice, and so you do not see them in every single document. I think that's low-hanging fruit number one. Number two, people ask me, "Well, should I give somebody a dollar to make sure that they're there is something to lose?" My feeling is no. If you give them a dollar, all of a sudden they now have some rights that they may not otherwise have had. That that does not seem to be the what we're looking to do, and you have to make the number that they're potentially going to lose big enough for it to matter to this person.

7:49 Number three, and this isn't legal advice, but consider who you're naming as your trustee. Consider what your what conflicts you might be creating. If you're If you are setting up one kid to be in charge of everybody's money, you may have the family that that is a perfect and everybody's in alignment, but I've seen that create friction where it doesn't otherwise exist. So, be mindful, be thoughtful about the choices you're making. And along with, you know, which child you're naming as the successive successor trustee, how many people you're naming is an issue, right? Because I've seen cases where you have they named two people. Well, guess what? If they disagree, guess what you just created. That's exactly right. Are you creating co-ownerships with property? Because I mean, that's not necessarily in the administration of it, but this is this is the continuum, right? Are you Are you setting people up to potentially butt heads? So, it seems to me that there's two philosophies I've talked to attorneys on the creation of the substance of the administra- of the estate. Some want to define things as much as possible per the terms of the client at the time. And others look to try to understand in bigger picture what they want to accomplish, and give the trustee more flexibility because sometimes splitting properties aren't best tax-wise, or aren't best economically, and there might be a better way to handle the solution of splitting 50/50 than giving both an interest in a property, for example. So, what are some common cases you come up with where maybe you advise a client, "Okay, what are you trying to accomplish here?" And then in your case, are you trying to codify that and make that happen, or are you trying to be more flexible, but have the goals more clear?

9:33 My feeling is, all things being equal, flexibility is key. Be as flexible as possible, especially because we often write our estate plans that might last generations, or at least decades. It is impossible to forecast exactly what the circumstances are going to be over that amount of time. And so, the more flexibility in your document, the better. If there isn't a particular issue or situation that you need to work around. If there is, we work around it even if it creates inflexibility. Yeah, tax laws change and so much markets change and yeah, there's so much going on that you want to plan it 5 years from now, you're going to miss an opportunity or end up paying a lot more in something you don't want to do. So, at what point do you recommend somebody not picking a family member but using a professional to be the administrator of the estate? Now, obviously you're assisting the you do trust administration and so you're legally representing the administrator. Do you act as the fiduciary upon certain cases upon request or is that something that you work for the estate but you hire a third party to be the administrator? How do you handle that? I'll start with your first question which was about professional trustees and executors and fiduciaries. The answer is not all the time. I would say that the majority of our clients pick friends and family to be their successors. However, there are plenty of situations which call for a professional including the ones that we were just alluding to with maybe a child or children are not the best parties. Maybe they don't have somebody who necessarily jumps out in their in their life.

11:11 Perhaps it is the idea of not putting the kids in a in a potentially contentious situation. All of those things are good reasons. Or sometimes it is just the complexity requires somebody who's a professional. The question about our me and others at our firm working as the trustee or as the executor. The situations have come up. I'm very picky about it only because it is one thing to draft somebody's documents. It's another thing to get in bed with their family financially so to speak. And so, I reserve it traditionally only for families that I know very well for a long time with a well-established history. Much more frequently I'm going to go to a third-party neutral and happy to represent them if the situation calls for it. But that seems to be often our mode of choice. Yeah. Yeah, it seem like it seem like there are enough of those people who are good and worth cuz it's expensive you have a third party doing the job. If there's a lot of work, somebody's going to get paid a lot of money. I think sometimes the family doesn't understand they're doing that same work for free but they're not doing something else while they're doing that work cuz it is work at the end of the day, right? It's still It's it's a tremendous amount of work. In fact, I think it's generally undercompensated. But friends and family can get paid for the same work just as a professional can.

12:36 They often don't take it because either they are doing it out of honor or the goodness of their heart rather than for financial reasons or they are the beneficiaries themselves and it doesn't make sense to take money out of one pocket and to pay the other. But it is a tremendous amount of work and there are often times even after the fact after the death of somebody we frequently get a third party in even if they're not named to administer the estate. There are some cases that we will we won't take unless we have a professional because they're too hairy. Right. Yeah, I would say as a real estate professional I do think though I've done a couple of administrations. You know, I did one in California at a time without a license. I had somebody ask me if I would do it professional and I did it. And it sounds easy. It's like a lot of money. The answer is it's a lot of work for the money. I've done it subsequently another time for good client. I wouldn't do it again for free ever and even I got paid on it, I didn't think it was really great business. It was it was work, you know, it's like anything else but the people who do that full-time but they have certain procedures and systems and they can do it more efficiently and I think they those people enjoy that type of work. It's a little different. seems to me that one of the biggest challenges that you have as a practitioner is the dual requirement to both be logically and technically proficient on the law and knowledgeable with the soft skills of the communication, right?

14:04 Typically those don't go together. You have to work on how two different things. And so, as you think about it in your business what percentage do you see yourself as the attorney just doing the legal work but then on the other side the business person who has to make customers happy and make them feel loved and feel communicated making that extra phone call that you know you don't have to make but they need it so you make those phone calls. How do you balance those two or how do you see that balance? It's challenging. You are absolutely right. All those hats. I frequently say I spend half my day playing therapist. It is a it is a challenging job. It is you know, part art part science and there is the to your point technical skill mixed with bedside manner. And some people have it and some people don't. Yeah, I don't have my wife will tell you I don't have the best bedside manner. But I'm pretty good at absorbing abuse and not getting engaged and so I've customers who are upset, they're tech they're frustrated, they're upset. They'll yell about me about something that has nothing to do with me and they'll apologize. I say that's okay, you're client, you know, you can you're allowed to yell at me all you want. I don't I don't you can't yell at the staff. You can't yell at you know, other people and reflect on me but you can yell at me all you want. I you know, I get it's tense. I get it's emotional. It's I'm in an emotional business. That's how it is. Yeah, that's a skill being able to absorb that abuse. All that or maybe I just don't have the sensitivity other people have. My wife will tell you it's the latter. That's a whole another discussion. Okay. So, to me obviously being the real estate agent, the one mistake I see more often probably by a higher percentage than reality is that the plans created but the assets aren't put in the plan. It's like buying a safe and they you know, you cart the safe in your house, you put it in the middle of your living room. Isn't it great we have a safe?

15:46 But you don't put the gold and the you know, guns and the collectibles in the safe, close the door and spin the lock. In an estate plan that means that you create the estate plan but you don't title the assets into the plan meaning in real estate you transfer title from you to your estate plan or trust. And same with certain types of assets. So, talk about and I'm sure you see people who go through the process and don't fund the plan. What do you do to make sure your clients get their plan funded so they can be effective? Yeah, you're right. We see this constantly and we see this in our estate planning practice and we see this in our administration and probate practice. Deeds are public record. It is a matter of course that when they sign their trusts or their updates, we have them sign deeds. So, those often at least if they are estate planning clients of ours are not an issue. So, let's stop there cuz that's not common. I don't know if you know that. It's not you probably see the results and it's not but I don't think that gets done but 10% of the time or less. So, what you're saying is that for example, if you have a real estate which is why many people get prompted to have an estate plan your firm will create the deed that moves the plan from Bob and Mary into the Bob and Mary trust. They sign it notarized I imagine as part of the package. And then do you record it? Do they record it? Do you verify it's recorded? We record it. We make sure that it is recorded properly. And I know you do. I asked you that the last time I had you on my other podcast because that's so important most attorneys don't do this. So, for those watching, this is the difference. You pay a little bit more for them I guess it is but it makes all the difference if it's not done.

17:24 Like that's the whole ball game. I have an estate right now, $40 million of assets. He has a great estate plan. Never got executed. Worthless. Have him call me. Well, he's passed. If I could have him call you, I'd be a real magician. Yeah, I know I got probably anybody to try that one but yeah, that's but I see this all the time. And so, talk about you know, that's not common. Two things you just said. One executing the deed from the person into the trust and two recording the deed. Talk about what prompted you to make that standard cuz that's not common. Yeah, I think it was the it was the one of the things that we can absolutely do somewhat independently of the client once we get their signature. Whereas, compared to other assets like for instance, a bank account, a brokerage account, something at an institution, typically they want to talk to the client. They don't want to talk to me. And so, while we can help them, we can facilitate and we can give them instructions, we can answer questions, we can't really do the work for them. Traditionally, it takes longer to get us authorized than to just have them. Even though it's an easy process in my opinion, those are some of the times that you'll see assets left out of a trust. But indeed, it seems like to the to the extent that we can take care of something and know that it is done, it seems like that is the reason we are being hired. That it was never a question in my mind as to take care of that. So as you say that because I think it is why people hire attorneys to do estate plans is they want the property in the trust. Like that's 80% of the time in my world. Now, I imagine bigger higher net worth individuals might have a lot more stocks, bonds, maybe privately held companies or portions of large corporations. But you know, in the vast majority of number of estate plans they're doing it cuz they have one or multiple piece of property they want in the plan. And in my way of looking at it as a businessman, I'm not an attorney but if you don't have the customer sign the deed in your office and prepare the

19:26 Deed for them, sign the deed and then get it recorded so you know it's been done you really haven't done your job. Like I'll give one for I'll tell you I think the clients don't know what they need or want. Of course. Many do but some of them are just looking to us to say, okay, tell us what we need to do and we'll do it including funding the trust. They wouldn't know to ask that. They wouldn't know to do that on their own unless we told them. And for those real estate agents watching this, I recommend obviously work with attorneys that do this stuff, cuz that's why you're recommending them. And then but if they don't, at least follow up, meaning I can go on [unclear] if the deed was recorded 3 days later, and I can call the customer back and say, "I noticed the deed wasn't recorded. Did you finish it?" I've had customers say, "Oh, yeah, I have that. I didn't realize I was supposed to fill that out." Yes. and it seemed the attorney that I think if I went online and pulled a copy of a recorded deed 3 days later, you know, there's a difference between having the deed, which is gets mailed back to the attorney or the customer, but also knowing that it gets scanned in the online system. It takes about 10 days now. If you go to LA County, you won't notice the deed recorded for about 10 days. Well, just knowing it's been done and done properly is a value. It's not life-changing, but it's worth downloading the document, send it to the customer, send the attorney, "Hey, notice this has been recorded.

20:43 Congratulations, you did a good job. Thank you." So, that's absolutely critical stuff, and I think that getting it funded, to me, seems like it should be I just like the way you said that. What else you If you're not doing that, what else are you doing? Like, what's the whole point of the whole thing besides getting paid? Yeah. Okay. So, here's a question. I'm sure you can't answer with a number, but I'm going to ask you anyhow like you can. How often should somebody have their estate plan reviewed? You're right, there is not a set number. it Some of it depends on stage of life. If you are a younger, let's say a younger couple who's just done their first set of documents, you may not need it at a set interval. You I might suggest you take a look when you have a life event, like a birth, a death, a marriage, a divorce, something like that. As opposed to perhaps the older clientele who often want to make sure that everything's up to date only because it may be a shorter amount of time before it's needs to be enacted. They want to they want that security. They want so maybe there is a every 3, 5 years, something like that, to just take a look. Doesn't even have to be the attorney. Could just be revisiting their choices, making sure they're still aligned with their wishes.

22:01 Seems like in California, we should be paying attention to stuff regularly cuz there's There are so much of changes in real estate and state law every year. I can't even find all of it to even analyze all of it and understand what it all means. Right. That's right. So, public court, I know there was this change last year on you know, a smaller, more streamlined, efficient process for limited probates, but the law got passed and the forms weren't done. So, like, nobody could do one. Nobody really knew what was going to happen. And even still, I've talked to a couple attorneys doing a couple, but even they don't know if they're doing it right cuz there's just no process that's been done by the county. Correct. You're exactly correct. And sometimes things are passed just like this without understanding what the ramifications or even the process is going to look like. Yeah, but lawmakers have never done a probate, and so they just feel, "Well, let's change the law." And it's like, "How could that possibly hurt?" Well, it causes all kinds of problems and who knows. okay. So, one of the challenges I find also on estate plans administration is you have heirs who feel like again, this is not maybe your client's administration work, but you know, heirs will come to me and say, "Hey, my brother's managing the estate, and I don't know what's going on. I feel like he's doing something I should know about it." I believe there are certain requirements by law when there is a trust that when it went from I guess revocable irrevocable to revocable, when the scene passes, there's notice requirements to people who are heirs at law by probate.

23:40 There's there's notice requirements to beneficiaries of the trust. There's opportunities to get a copy of the trust. And I know different attorneys have different strategies. Some purposely disclose the whole trust to all parties who are entitled. Some want to want to do it piecemeal because they're concerned about the giving up too much information. So, talk a little bit about what those requirements are for notice, and then what your strategy is on providing that to the various parties. You detailed it well in terms of the requirements for notice, specifically legal notice as to irrevocable aspects of a trust and sending a copy of the trust. Our strategy on that is often first to defer to the client if there is a reason to go one way or another. And secondly, our if all is equal, we'll send the entire copy of the trust for a couple of reasons. One, we don't want to look like that we have anything to hide cuz because we do not. And number two, it can extend the statute of limitations on the notice period if the copy is requested during that time and it hadn't been sent. To your earlier points about my brother is doing stuff and I should understand what's going on, trustees and fiduciaries have an obligation to keep the beneficiaries reasonably informed. And that that can be interpreted differently by different people.

25:03 Often times, we do want to keep the beneficiaries informed for variety of reasons, including just satiating them and making sure we don't have animosity bubble up. But we also don't want to give them every single detail because that is the way that this grinds to a halt with deadlocked because they object to one or another thing that our trustee is doing, and all of a sudden we can't move forward because we have issues. So, reasonably informed, but not overly informed. Right. Yeah, I think you know, classic case for me is when we would sell property, you know, either you list it or you or you're in escrow at a price. And of course, every heir compares that price to Zillow. "Oh, it's 100,000 below Zillow. What are you doing? You're giving away the property." If only Zillow bought the property for that price, I'd be glad to sell it to them, but they don't buy any property at the price that they estimate. So again, just to recap, anybody who would be an heir at probate, family member, spouse, children, would receive notice that so-and-so passed, has an estate plan, and your rights are affected at some level. And that So, how long does the administrator have to issue that notice to those parties?

26:23 There is a statute that says that it's notice is supposed to be sent. I believe it's 60 days. and then there is a once the notice is sent, there is a 120-day contest period that begins on trusts. And so, the strategy of sending it right away is that that 120 days has also started when you send it out rather than another 60 days. And so, it just seems in general, the sooner you get any time started, and the less times you give people to think about a decision, the better for your client, right? Well, we want our trustees to have clarity when they move forward. And so, for instance, if there is going to be a contest, we don't want them to make distributions before we know that with finality. And so, we often counsel our trustees not to make distributions until that contest period has expired, which the sooner the better. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. Yeah, and so, and now there are cases where the trust has distributions that will cause conflict by their nature, right? There's, you know, they want to punish a child, they want to punish a particular heir by giving them less than the rest. And when they see that, if the trust is written the way it says, you know, "Son A gets a million, Daughter B gets a million, Son C gets $10,000." To me, that's just like, you know, kindling fire and paper, gasoline, and you're handing them a match. and so, how do you avoid, or is that just the way it goes? If that's the decision you're going to make, then you're going to have to have a be willing to stomach through the process.

27:55 I think the latter. It may be that is just how it goes. I would say the choice and the discussion has to happen with the client when setting up the estate plan because the ramifications will follow. It is not the type of thing that we can really maneuver around once the person's passed, and the set of instructions are what we have to follow. So, one of the things just kind of moving kind of towards a wrap-up, but I'd love to talk about the business development side. I'm a real estate agent, and obviously, every realtor in the world would love to have you send every real estate that has to be sold to them as a referral. And I try to say, "It doesn't work that way." In any business, you have to be give and take. You earn your business, you earn it by creating value for your customer. What are things that real estate agents have done in the past to earn your business and say, "Wow, this person's an asset to my business, and so when I have the opportunity, I will refer business back to them." Frequently, we refer our real estate, specifically, to professionals who do this type of work, either exclusively or predominantly. The reason being there are nuances. It is still a real estate sale just like any other, but there are nuances that, although there aren't a ton of them, they make a big difference. And there are the real estate professionals that are educated and experienced with this type of work make our lives easier in that we don't have to educate them on these pieces, and they are able to take that piece off our plate.

29:23 It is infrequent that we get referrals from real estate agents. It almost always goes the other way, which is perfectly fine. It is the type of business we are in. The relationship business. And there are certain relationships where we receive referrals and rarely give, and there are certain relationships we give referrals and rarely receive. And that is all perfectly fine. The idea being that we try to choose people or do good work to make us or them look good in front of the clients and make everybody's lives better. But that's the piece I think, the experience with specific probate and trust sales are going to make our lives easier and that's who we're going to choose every time. It So I appreciate the words good work. I hear that from an attorney I know I'm talking to the right kind of attorney. I don't know where that phrase comes from, but I just know that's always coming from an attorney that I want to do business with because they specialize and they're very hyper-focused on the results of the clients, not just the not just their business. Though you have to be in business, you got to make a profit. So if you had a nephew or niece that was getting into real estate and let's assume they learned about probate, they took classes, they really knew how to service the special needs that you had, but they need to develop business, need to create relationships. What are one or two activities you'd recommend them to do either to avoid or one or two activities you'd recommend them to do to generate some business?

30:46 I would say I think I built my business based on networking. I think that that is the key. I think people want to do business that with other people that they are comfortable with, that they know a bit, that they trust. And sometimes that trust doesn't have to just come from the work itself. There's got to be a way to get in the door and spending some time with others and potential referral sources. Those potential referral sources are probably the attorneys and the professional fiduciaries. Those are the people I would at least start by spending my time with or trying to. And so I'm sure every market's different. Here in LA we have a number of bar activities, we have kind of third-party organizations for fiduciaries and attorneys in law and real estate. So we're going to events like that would be one of the ways that you would network if you recommend you know somebody to build business like this? Depends on the person. I never thrived at those types of giants meetings. I did much better with one-on-ones and warm introductions. So mind your network. Mind your mind the people The people in your personal and professional life around you are potential referral sources or potential introductions. That's who I would go to, the people that you already have an established rapport with. They already know, like, and trust you so they know people who are likely to know, like, and trust you as well. David, great advice both business-wise and specifically on estate planning and estate administration.

32:07 And we're not going to get into any other types of law that one might provide. I just I love that. I love it when I went to your website the first time. I said, "This is a guy that I want to promote, I want to do business with." sofferlawgroup.com is the website. And I just went through his practice cuz I find that kind of fun to deal with. And then down below is his contact info, phone number, and email. Of course, if you lose or misplace that, you're listening online, you can reach out to me and I'd be more glad to make those connections. David, thank you so much for your professional standards that you're raising the industry. And thank you for your time today sharing it with us. Thank you, Bill. Really appreciate it. And the rest of you, this is Probate Weekly. Oops, that's not right. Don't do that yet. this Probate Weekly we get together every week. I'm sorry, this is [The Estate Planning Podcast]. Wrong podcast. We get together every week most commonly with estate planning attorneys, sometimes vendors, to learn to help our clients get the results that they want and to be more effective in doing that. If I can help at all, please reach out at Bill Gross Probate on social media. As always, make today your best day ever. Thanks for