Purposeful Estate Planning: Helping Clients Leave a More Conscious Legacy, with Curtis Kaiser

0:01 You know, you can have the world's best estate plan, but the plan will only achieve the goals it does set out to get. And the key is, what's the bullseye that you want the plan to get you to that spot? Curtis Kaiser is an attorney and estate planning attorney who specializes in purposeful estate planning. How to help clients leave a more conscious legacy. I sat recently with that topic at the Estate Planning and Trust Council of Long Beach. I couldn't make it there, so we're lucky to have him here today. Curtis, thanks for joining us today. Good to see you, Bill, and look forward to, like your emails, having a nice and spicy conversation with the truth the truth and our opinions on the truth, right? Might as well. You know, I mean, people like you are going to do business with any house. You might as well tell the truth, and if it's spicy, I think it is sometimes. So, thank you. I think you were referring to my Monday morning where I'm a little spicier on real estate topics than I am on estate planning, more educational. But, thank you for that. So, let's talk a bit. You know, I know you were an estate planner at some point you kind of had a I remember in your story kind of change of heart or change in focus about what the direction of estate planning would be. Talk a little bit about your origin story and how kind of the consciousness and the legacy became important to you in your estate planning practice. Yeah, so I've been an attorney for about a quarter century, and I've had my own estate planning practice for let me do some math, maybe like 18 years.

1:26 And when I when I first started having people come to me for a trust administration, the project or process of carrying out the trust because someone has passed away or someone is incapacitated it was usually pretty messy. And the clients who brought the situation in, let's say the spouse had passed away, a parent something like that, they were already grieving, distraught. And then when I told them that things weren't quite in line, it was extra upsetting. And I would read the estate planning documents and think man, I wish these clients had come and seen me. I know I would have drafted these documents better. It would have been more technically sound. And I would have saved them this grief. But then something humbling happened, which was that over the years, my own clients started passing. And while I knew that the documents were drafted technically correctly, I had done them. I'm a board-certified specialist in estate planning. The same ultimate result was happening. The ultimate result was that the plans weren't working. The plans weren't working as intended. And the trustee who was hiring us was upset, disappointed, frustrated.

3:08 And so I was like, wait a second. I know I drafted these. This isn't what I want to see. This not why I'm in this practice to have the families not going well, to have the families not doing well. And I was trying to figure out why. And around the same time so maybe 7 years ago I had a health issue. And I needed a kidney transplant. And as I was getting close to that, my wife said, "Hey, what's up with our estate plan? Is everything taken care of?" And so I said, "Well, let's do a dry run." Let's I asked my team to say, "Hey, is everything on track?" And I had Have you heard the Bill, the adage about an attorney who represents himself? No, I've heard the shoemaker, I think, but not the attorney, but Okay, well, this was kind of a cobbler's kid situation, but an attorney who represents himself has a fool for a client. He's the Oh, yes. Yeah. You heard that one. So, I wasn't a fool when I did my own estate plan. I had a colleague that I respect. She drafted She drafted it for us. And my team, when I did the dry run, came back and said, "Hey, there's these handful of things that are not set up correctly." And I said, "That's surprising because I know my attorney's good and I paid her this money." So, I called her.

4:38 And she said, "Well, did you read the section of the binder behind tab number seven that explained what you were supposed to do with the assets to make sure they were in the trust?" And I said, "No. you know, I paid you all that money, and we took all that time, so I figured it was done." So, I kind of fell under that same spell, and it made me really kind of understand why the clients go through that. So I kind of realized that the problem was what we most of us as estate planning attorneys do is inadvertently put a false sense of security in our clients that, "Hey, they came in and they saw Curtis. He seems nice. There's a few diplomas on the wall. He said he's board-certified. Everything must be taken care of." So, I got a binder. I have a beautiful binder with a bunch of tabs on it. And I'm sure Curtis wouldn't have led me wrong, not after the money I paid and the time we took. So, I'm sure things are right. And so kind of that epiphany led us six seven years ago now to start what we call a legacy program where it's saying, "Hey, instead of it being the documents, we're really going to focus on the assets, making sure they're connected up with the plan, and making sure the family and the beneficiary knows the deal, knows the drill, so that at game time and game time is not when you sign the estate plan, game time is when something happens to you that at game time it actually works like you think like you envision it working for your family.

6:30 You know, so far you used that analogy. I was watching a quarterback who played yesterday. And there was a play they ran that didn't work. And Are you talking about the Browns two-point conversion? Yeah. Yeah. And the reporter asked the quarterback who was taken out on that play, you know, how you feel about being taken out? And he's a humble kid, said, "You know, whatever. The coach called the play, and I'm fine with it." And he said, "Well, did the play work in practice?" And the quarterback looked at him and said, "Well, of course we're not going to run a play in the game that we didn't run in practice successfully." And it was just interesting, you know, that so often in what you're talking about here, you know, there's only one game time for most people. You did something unusual to test to you know, to test the process and discovered what I have find that I deal with more customers maybe who don't yet have a plan or had one they're not happy with, which is the plan they thought they paid for isn't the plan that they got. That's right. And it And it doesn't mean that they had a bad attorney. It may mean, you know, the one of the ways that I kind of try and get prospective clients into the frame of mind for my way of thinking is to say, "Okay, you're here for something. You're You're here for something, and what's that something? The something is some sort of plan, some sort of pieces of paper, some sort of documents that are going to make things go smoothly when something happens to you." And then I say, "Okay, well, I'm a board-certified specialist in estate planning. I work with ultra-high-net-worth clients through or people in peer groups through Tiger21. I have this program. I work with the multimillionaire next door. So, I know many of the answers, but I don't know when you're going to need this plan to work. Is it 2026? 2046?

8:25 I don't know what your assets are going to be, like the level, how much, what physically the assets are going to be, what your perspective is going to be with your family, the relationship with the laws are going to be. So, how am I supposed to draft the plan now to make sure it works at that point in time at game time?" I say, "I mean, I don't know. Draft some flexible language." And I say, "I will. I'll do the best I can there. It will be flexible, but so many things are going to change. How are we going to do it?" And they'll say, "I don't know. Maybe I need to stay on top of it and update it every so often." Oh, maybe they say I say, "Yes, but people don't. People don't. And so, my philosophy or kind of what we've come up with is through this program, we lovingly make you we lovingly make them update it because it's so hard for people to get out of that mentality that if they've accepted, "Hey, bunch of people told me to do the plan, my parents, my financial advisor, my CPA, my realtor. I did it.

9:43 I did the plan. Well, we know today, you know, the old model of financial advisors was you had a stock a stock broker. And the stock broker would make trades for you when you wanted, but there was no like ongoing financial planning and with our knowledge of today's ongoing financial planning it you would be silly or laughable for someone to create a financial plan at age 40 and then have the advisor just pat him on the back and say go get him. You know what to do, save a lot, don't spend too much, invest in the stock market, let us know if you have any questions. So that's how our evolution has come about Bill. So one of the things in researching a little bit was that you talk about a renewal rate. I don't think I've heard any attorney even talk about such a concept. So that implies some sort of ongoing relationship. So talk a little bit about what that means to you and as you as you look at your practice is and being different and that sounds to me different than anybody else I've talked to. Yeah, I'd been searching for a way to do it and couldn't find anything that felt right for me and my clients. I'd heard of a couple of attorneys that would charge an annual small fee, a modest fee to say that if you called they would answer your questions or make an update to the estate plan.

11:16 But that was kind of if they called and we had tried to get people to check in every few years and that sort of thing and didn't have success with that. Even when we said it's free. so I had a mentor out of Boston, Massachusetts, a suburb of Boston called named [unclear] and he had started a program similar to this and so I did some coaching with him and one of the keys and I think you'll appreciate this Bill from where you sit. He really kind of saw it and I agreed with him. He saw the key as being the assets and the connection of the assets to the plan. And the way I think of it is that you have this plan, but every single asset needs kind of its own plan under that plan. For example, if you own a fourplex or you own a couple of investment properties and you have one or both of them in LLCs, that's great. And the LLCs would be connected to the plan because perhaps they would be owned by the trust. And so if the property is owned just by the individual, right? That heads to probate and we know we know that route heading to court. If it's owned by the LLC, but the LLC isn't connected to the trust, we have another pro we have another problem there. So really kind of started with focusing on the assets because that's the first thing we do when we're doing a trust administration is can we help the trustee take control of the assets?

13:03 And if the answer's yes, we had the assets linked up to the plan or to the beneficiary designations correctly, then we're off to a really good start and if we don't then even whether it's a full probate or a mini probate or a Heggstad petition, we're going to court, which isn't what the family had in mind. There wasn't a game plan that we really wanted to execute, but we got to respond to the cards as they're played. So talk a bit about how do you I know you talk about getting the assets ready for the heirs and the heirs ready for the assets. You know, sometimes the decedent has have a case where you know, he was a very successful commercial property investor and built up commercial property management company and he had staff. He had a beautiful estate plan, you can appreciate this. It was one of the most beautiful binders I've ever saw. He just never signed it. So he dies basically intestate and the only heir in this case is a son who lives halfway across the country, has no experience in real estate. You know, nice guy, smart guy, but that's owning property in [unclear], commercial property is a whole different world. And so you know, obviously the heir wasn't ready for the assets. Now it turns out, you know, we got a fiduciary and we're able to service them, but that's not the ideal plan or at least maybe it would have been better had we had it done ahead of time.

14:28 Identified everybody and got everything right. So talk a little bit about getting the heirs ready for the assets as well as the assets ready for the heirs. Well, that that's actually my favorite topic to talk about Bill is and one of my favorite books that like of someone who's a real deep thinker on this topic and talking about a family's financial capital, but other forms of capital that the family has as resources to make this transition go well is a book called Family Wealth by James Hughes or Jay Hughes. He's really a pioneer in that movement and the movement would say that the client, the successful client is spending their lifetime building up the value of their assets and maybe if we're lucky they've spent a little bit of time with their estate planning attorney and their financial advisor setting up a plan to provide for a transition of a smooth transition of the assets to the intended beneficiaries like the son in your case. But if we haven't brought the son into the conversation and the metaphor that Jay Hughes uses is like a meteor. It's like a meteor hitting the next generation.

15:53 That doesn't mean that it can't be like you know, a seismic event that changes their life for the better, but it is a seismic event and if they're not prepared for it quite challenging. I mean the emotion that comes with it, the responsibility, the feelings of guilt. And so I try and meet my clients where they're at in terms of their ability and willingness to talk with the kids about the different aspects of the program, but I have to start by saying, hey you know, you're not the one that's going to be carrying out this plan, right? So it's great that we've been talking about this for hours, weeks, months, years, but you've set up your brother to be the trustee. How much have we told him about it? Let's have a conversation with him and not just one conversation. So let's make sure he's educated as to your wishes to know what you want him to do and that once he hears it that he's still up for carrying it out. And then the next step, once your beneficiaries hit a reasonable age, let's talk to them at age appropriate levels. Hey, we've got a plan and just so you know, here's the plan. This is let's say for us, 18 year old. We've got a plan to pass the assets to someone to take care of us if we're sick, down to you guys if we're gone and here's the person in charge. Do you think that you could work well with them?

17:26 Here's our attorney, here's our financial advisor, here's a couple other people that we're close with. Those are people you'd be talking with. And then at 28 it's a different conversation and at 38 it's a different conversation and it's never going to be easy when the kids step into those shoes, but this way they're more prepared. I'll go back to a football analogy. This is as if the parents are in the huddle drawing up that crazy play and if it's a significant net worth they're basically bringing in the kid off the sidelines and saying, just go deep. Like it's like kids in a school yard. Just go deep. I'm going to throw you a 50 yard pass. There's going to be some coverage there, but you just catch it, okay? And ready, set, hike. As opposed to, hey, we're in training camp. We're going to here's the play. Let's run the play a few times. Here's your coaches. Here's where you go if there's problems. Oh, you want to get more educated. All right, let's go to training camp. So Yeah, I think you know, there's some great analogies in NFL football where you know, quarterbacks come in after injuries and they're taking over and teams have these very complicated play calling and the quarterback's listening on the radio hearing this whole big nomenclature they had three days to look at and I'm thinking about Baker Mayfield when he joined the Rams last year for a little bit or two years ago and his reaction to that like I don't know what the hell this guy's talking about, but I know how to call play. So he you know, whatever he worked it out, but I think in this case that's not really ideal.

19:00 You really want to make sure everybody's on the same page. And what strikes me about this is you know, most of us when we think about a great estate planning attorney, obviously technical knowledge and degrees and certifications and all of that are important, but seems to me in my experience that equally important are the soft skills. Have nothing to do with your education, nothing really to do with your certification. Maybe it doesn't that it shows you're committed to learning it, but it seems to me that the key to make or break this stuff is really your ability to have the hard conversations with people that may think they're going to get X and they're going to get you know, half of X or they're going to get Y instead and why that's okay and you're there in the middle of conversation. It seems to me that's an important part of your practice if you're going to be successful. Yeah, I think empathy. You know, I had a meeting with a client this morning who's carrying out a loved one's trust administration and I was telling them hey these people who are going to inherit money they're in grief their loved one passed away they are scared they don't know what's going to happen they are defensive they want to be patient and honorable but they also feel they owe it to their loved one who passed away to make sure they don't get screwed and so they're a little bit on guard and all that's okay like as long as they don't cross the line so I think just I think just empathy and putting yourself in the person's shoes whether it's the beneficiary who's not my client or the trustee and I agree with you I would say what we've had success with and what that I'm kind of passionate about and evangelizing about since then is what I call a traditional way of estate planning where you come in

21:02 And you have a nice conversation with an estate planning attorney for an hour or two maybe a follow-up conversation maybe just go straight to the signing and even if the documents say what you want to say that's not going to cut it at game time whenever game time is so I guess what I'm passionate about is saying is that people should have either with their attorney some sort of program like we have with the legacy program where clients pay us an annual price and we stay on top of things take care of them or some sort of alternative to make that happen even beyond an open door even beyond just hey call us when you have a question because people don't and one of the challenges with the traditional model is it's it's hard for it was hard for us before we had this program to figure out how to help someone who did a plan eight years ago and called back with a question and as a result we have a lot of people who say yeah I did a plan six years ago called my attorney and I never heard back and I'm sure you hear that all the time

22:14 All the time. All the time and partly it's yes some disorganized people I apologize on behalf of my fellow professionals and the other is that it's kind of like it's kind of like calling a doctor's office to try and ask some for something when you don't go through the channel of making appointment a month from now it's just they're not set up for that and it's why a lot of people have gravitated towards concierge doctors because just for the simple fact of like I can talk to the doctor I can get a response and so this in some ways a little bit like a concierge estate planner because I know you pay me every year I know what's going on we're taking care of you Right. Yeah you can get a hold of me that's how it goes. Yeah I think people there are there are there's a segment of people willing to pay that extra for the extra service obviously a segment who's not and those who are going to get better service they paid for and I think you as a professional can pay attention to them more effectively so yeah interesting. Yeah the we my tagline is purposeful estate planning for the multi-millionaire next door and that's kind of a nod to well one the book from the late 90s the millionaire next door from Stanley and I forgot the last name but love that book that along that is like hey don't keep up with the Joneses take it easy and then I also like die with zero by Bill Perkins which is well don't save too much you know have some good experiences but that reference to the multi-millionaire next door refers to yeah that's who's going to want to explore working with someone like me doing that type of program.

24:01 Well somebody who has a position with assets that they accumulate more than they spend because they have something they want to do with it you know their life would be family or kids or some cause or something so to me it makes sense that that they're going to use your service while they're alive to preserve that legacy I know in talking to you before and one thing you mentioned I saw online that you're involved with the organization Tiger 21 I think you're the chairman of Tiger 21 what is can you describe what that is and how that affects your practice? Sure that is an organization that is a smaller and different flavor of other organizations like Vistage or YPO have you either have you heard of either of those Bill?

24:40 Mhm yes for sure. So Vistage is probably Vistage and YPO more commonly known names and those organizations have been around for maybe 75 years and have I don't know probably 30 40,000 members and those organizations are designed to provide peer support for business owners as they go through the successes trials and tribulations of creating and building a business. Tiger 21 was started 25 years ago by a guy who had a loved his peer learning experience through Vistage but then sold his company and had different challenges around legacy investment management going from being a concentrated entrepreneur to a more diversified investor and so excuse me Tiger 21 is peer learning for those who've already reached a level of financial success and so I chair two groups for the organization one in Los Angeles and one in Newport Beach and so my job is to put the right people in the room set the right agenda set the right conversations so that they learn from and give value to each other on things like investment estate planning life kids grandkids family legacy purpose philanthropy and so I do that alongside my practice and well one of the interesting things I learn I learned from that was I expected that the Tiger 21 members would have their plans buttoned up because they're at a high level of net worth and the stakes are quite high but the percentage of them that have things tight isn't that much higher than just a normal affluent person so it's

26:46 Just human nature right that keeps us from having those sorts of things in our life dialed in right but what I love about Tiger is getting to have those deep conversations about the difference between generations and the first generation's cre- creators of wealth and the second generation and the third have you heard the saying about shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves in three generations Bill? I don't think so. That one is just kind of an aphorism that is present across many countries and cultures the idea that someone rises up through hard work and ingenuity and determination often through difficult circumstances and through sheer force of will creates significant wealth and then stereotypically historically the second generation maintains that wealth they're a little more polished a little more cultured a little more educated than the first generation but they have the direct connection to the work and the philosophy that created it so they kind of first creates second maintains and third it dissipates because the wealth is in the air like oxygen it can be taken for granted the connection and the visuals to the hard work the first generation put in and so that's the fear the prophecy that all of my members are trying to avoid and we're working together to avoid that with best practices around love discipline and gratitude and instilling that in the kids so that so that we avoid that that nasty prophecy right that's a nasty prophecy.

28:42 Well even if it's not even about maintaining wealth just raising families is you know my I have a daughter who's married and has now with three grandkids and I tell her all the time that life is much harder now for her raising kids than it was when I had one hand my mother had a harder she was a housewife raised three kids they didn't have disposable diapers they didn't have DoorDash they didn't have a lot of the accoutrements so somehow she managed with hard work to get us all you know raised educated and move forward and today in some ways it's a lot easier but those temptations make it harder and so she's looking back now saying now she wants to raise her kids how do you with all these you know conveniences and you know I don't know about wealth but you know significant you know resources how do you get children to grow up and appreciate hard work when so much of what you do is devoid work and so that's the I think the challenge is that you have to have some purpose that's willing to work for whether not you're pushing buttons or you're you know mining coal you still have to put the effort in at something that's of value to your family I would think and but as I imagine particularly for wealthier families, this is a big challenge when on one hand they want to you know, hide them from all the stresses of life. The other hand, those stresses would build character in some regards.

30:00 You know, that reminds me of a metaphor that I saw a speaker recently share, a gentleman named David York, who's an estate planning attorney in Utah. And he was talking about the Biosphere project in Arizona. Do you remember that? Where it was kind of like a like a fake civilization in a bubble. They were trying to recreate it. And he was talking about it that a challenge they had there was growing the trees to sufficient length and to sufficient height in this bubble. And they were testing what was the problem. Was it the soil, the nutrients, the air, not enough carbon dioxide, or what was going on? And they later figured out it was the wind. There was no wind in this Biosphere. And the trees, for lack of being tested by the wind, didn't develop enough resilience, strong enough roots in the ground to allow them to grow tall. So, that was kind of the metaphor that he used to talk about, you know, facing some adversity and developing some resilience. And you know, the truth of it is the kids of the wealthy members of these groups, when the member achieved the zero-to-hero wealth journey, they grew up with nothing.

31:38 There is no way that their kid is going to walk the same road as them. It's just not going to happen. Correct. They have lifted their family out of that. And so, that adversity is not possible to recreate for them. And even if the lessons and the end result is what the member wanted, that was one of the driving forces for how hard they worked is they didn't want their kids to go through it. So, it's almost a bit of I can't think of the word for it, but like, you know, turned around like the resilience you want them to have, they can't have it. Even, you know, it's not like you can pretend that you're completely poor, right? And give them the same childhood you had. You don't want them to have that. So, somebody I lean on, an author named James Grubman, he talks about the antidote to shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves is instilling love, discipline, and gratitude. And he talks about how that can be done at any level of wealth, right? If with your mom who had to really cut corners, she instilled that in you, love, discipline, and gratitude. And there's no reason that someone worth a lot of money can't install instill those same values in their kids. And to start from an early age and take it from there. So, I really enjoy being thoughtful with those people about it. We spend we spend a day a month together. this Thursday down I'll be down in Orange County. And you know, one of the questions that the member is going to be asking the group each month. It's a different member's turn to share their financial portfolio and to share their life story and to share questions with the group.

33:34 Wow. And one of them his quest one of his questions this month is how do I measure success in terms of my relationship with the kids when they are adults? And my sense is that I measure it by do they want to hang out with me? And so, here's how I'm building my life right now to try and set that up. Am I on the right track? And so, that doesn't have that much to do with financials. We're not talking about investment, but these are successful people talking to each other about how do we get this right? you mentioned your daughter you're having a conversation. And yeah, like you want her to call you every once in a while. You want to see your grandkids. You want to have her lean on you during tough times and during good times. And so, I think I get to have those deep conversations every month. And I try and bring those back to my clients to go beyond, okay, who's going to be the trustee? Who are you? What percent is going to go to each person? And so, I think that's how they relate to each other. In my system, I mean, I purposely I'm in a community where we put a premium on living near each other and living near our family. And so, I can walk and see my grandkids where but most people don't have that. And you know, when kids particularly wealthier families, they send their kids to great schools. They're going all around the world. my sister's daughter is literally on a first job. And they loved her so much, they're sending her to Australia. Which is great. I think it's a great experience for her. I think she'll learn a lot. I think she'll grow a lot being away from the family. Yet, you know, she meets an Australian guy, gets married there. You know, you're forever flying to Australia to see your grandkids. So, it's one of those things where you better be thoughtful about it. And I think, you know, I know my wife and I were and we felt like we're reaping some benefits there. And I know a lot of our friends didn't really plan it out and are kind of surprised.

35:29 So, these are great questions to think about while you still have some influence in the process rather than regrets, you know, if it's too late. So, I can see where the process I talked about is so important. So,

35:40 May I may I mention something on that, Bill? You know, there's a book I recently read by a guy named Jamie Weiner, w e i n e r. And it talks about how difficult it can be for some kids to grow up in the shadow of highly successful parents.

36:01 For sure. And what he talks about is that and you know, just your friend's daughter moving to Australia. Was that your friend's daughter you were talking about? My sister's daughter. My niece.

36:14 Oh, your niece. So, what it talks about in kind of an ideal world from a successful family, they, you know, hit 18, 19, 20, 21, you know, whatever age they feel ready to leave and go do their own thing, they leave, they go out into the world, they have one foot planted in the values of their family and their roots. Right.

36:41 Their other foot is going out to see the world, to learn for themselves, to know who they are as part of the family, who they are apart from the family. And then someday, when they're ready, ideally, they come back to the family.

36:55 Correct. And the family is strengthened by the new perspective. And you know, by something that let's say your sister didn't have. A perspective she didn't have that is now brought back to the family and additive to the family. Even though we didn't want our little baby to go away and do all these things, it's us letting go, them breaking away. And then ideally, we've created the conditions for them to come back and share that knowledge and strengthen our family and avoid that shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves. In my case, my daughter got married to a boy from New York, but brought him back here and brought him into our family. He's brought so much to us. He's very different. He's I mean, he had some same values and some different. And I think that that that your metaphor is spot on. So, I know I'm a little bit over time here. I can just ask one last question. May be talking to an attorney who's either, you know, starting out or maybe in his practice is struggling a bit like maybe you were back when you made this pivot. You know, I know it's important for any attorney, same with real estate agents, to have a focus or a niche that you can become a specialist and known for. You found this one. Obviously, it's right for some people and not for others. How do you recommend attorneys approach that issue in their practice of finding an area to specialize in so they can both go deeper, provide more value to the customers, and then of course, at the same time it becomes more profitable business.

38:21 Bill, are you talking about within estate planning specifically or saying in the broad area of the law? However you see it. If I was an attorney and I was maybe doing some estate planning and doing some other related things, what would your advice be to for me to determine is estate planning right for me or not? And if so, you know, how do I approach it differently than the other estate planners? In your case, I feel like you've laid out a few important distinctions that both you enjoy, brings joy to you in your work, and it and it's going to attract the right kind of customers to you. So, whether it be in estate planning or outside, what advice would you give to a young attorney to find that spot for them? Well, I kind of had a similar example. My nephew, I just visited him right before Thanksgiving in Texas. And he's a college junior and he's very interested in the law. And so, he was asking for some advice. And one of my pieces of advice, he's getting ready to apply to law school. And one of my pieces was, and I said, you know, to his mom and dad, I hope this is okay that I'm saying this, but I don't think you should go straight from college to law school. I think you should take Well, if it was up to me, I think you should take a year and go backpack. and then I should think you should take a second year and go work at a law office in the field that you think you're most interested in for the person that you think is the most interesting that you can learn the most from.

39:46 And you won't pay for that school, you'll get paid to be going to that school. And if after 6 months you say, "I hate defending physicians insurance companies for medical malpractice." Well, then great. Do the Do the next 6 months somewhere else. So, I'd say working for someone who you really respect in a field that seems interesting to you. For me, I can only work in stuff that I'm fascinated by. If I just find it like, "Eh." I personally can't do it. So, that's kind of the advice I give somewhere else. If it really gets your juices flowing, then try that and try and work with someone you find interesting and then figure the rest out later. That's That's my philosophy. I think it's great advice. I always advise people get Just get a job in the field you want to be in and learn. And they're going to pay you rather than paying for grad school, you're getting paid for real grad school, which I think is way more valuable in the long run. I think that's fantastic advice. Yeah, I mean like if someone if someone went and worked for you for a year and then said, "I really want to do this inside real estate and I've done this and I want to do that." Well, okay. You've got some real-world experience to build off of and a few dollars in the bank. Yeah. And if you don't Like you're saying, if you don't like it, you know, rather than spending all the time and just I also feel like seems like attorneys who graduate law school and get their first job and find out it's not what they want, it's like a humiliation. No, you discovered what you don't like. It's not your fault. You just discovered it's not, you know, what you thought it was. And or maybe the that firm weren't the right people for you. You know, they're the most prestigious firm, but maybe not the right mentor, not the right office, not the right whatever setup. And I think that your advice is right on that find an area that you want to be in and work there and figure it out from the inside. I think that's fantastic.

41:39 Well, again, cuz I know we're going long here and you're LA rate, I got to cut it short. Just kidding. I'm going to charge you for this. I really appreciate so much your willingness to share and your you know, like I said, I saw you speaking in Long Beach online and I couldn't make it, but wanted to get a chance to meet you. if you want more information from Curtis, you can go to kaiserlg.com is the website. And in the down below we'll have his contact information. Curtis, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate you explaining to us, I think, some interesting aspects of estate planning that we don't get a chance to be exposed to all the time. Thank you so much for your time today. That was fun, Bill. Thank you. Great. We'll do it again sometime. And for the rest of you, this is [The Estate Planning Podcast]. We get together every week and interview typically estate planning attorneys or vendors related to helping make us better professionals, whether you're an attorney or a real estate agent or related in the business somehow. if you like this, please like, comment, send me information. If you're an attorney who wants to be interviewed on this, send me an email as well. I'd be glad to talk to you about it. As always, if I can help, reach out at billgrossprobate. Make today your best day ever. Thanks so much.