How to Grow With the Client in Estate Planning, with Stephen Kirschenbaum

0:01 Welcome to [The Estate Planning Podcast]. One of the challenges that is that sometimes the attorney is the right attorney at one stage of your life of your estate plan may not be able to grow with you for the next stage. And I'm I'm really excited to share today somebody who I know personally who's an estate planner who really focuses on helping people grow and going with the client as their estate plan needs to change. Steve Kirschenbaum who is from Los Angeles area as an estate planner. Steve, thanks for joining us today. Thanks for having me, Bill. Appreciate it. Talk about some unique challenges. You know, you meet somebody at their one stage of life, maybe they're new, they have a business or successful. What is it What happens over time that requires you to pay attention to adjust to them or help them adjust their plan to meet the future goals rather than be static? So, I think I think the you know, the question that you ask kind of answers The answer is hidden in the question, right? Because when somebody comes, you obviously have to address their immediate needs, their immediate goals, their immediate wishes. But, depending on the circumstance, depending on how they're projected to grow, their age, their business model, just the general industry that they're in, you also have to have a you while you're planning for the immediate you know, time at that you know, when we're you know, kind of implementing a trust or just thinking of a plan, you also have to have foresight as to where they will hopefully be 10 years, 5 years, 20 years, 30 years from now, whatever the case may be. And set up the business, set up the investments within a context of a framework where it can grow.

1:34 And the client can maximize the growth as much as possible while also protecting themselves and taking advantage of, you know, everything that they have that they can take advantage of at their disposal. So, give [snorts] me an example. What's the type of investment that's going to grow with somebody versus one that's going to be static and isn't appropriate for

1:52 Mean, let's say you have someone who's in real estate or who is some kind of a professional with and plans on growing out the business with multiple locations and multiple offices or something like that. There's real estate involved in that. there is corporate structuring involved in that. And so if you have a framework, let's say you have someone who has a trust, a husband and wife or whatever the case may be, has a trust. So maybe you would form some kind of a holding company or an LLC that would hold interests in the properties that are involved. That each property would be contained in its own LLC. The business would be would be an LLC or a corporation, but it would all kind of filter through or funnel through, let's say, this holding company, this holding LLC, which would ultimately be owned by the trust, right? So you have it like that, as a person grows, you could really kind of plug it in as you go. And if you grow extensively over time, so then you can mirror what you did initially a second time around. And then, depending on the nature of the properties, the assets, the debts, whatever the case may be, the tenants, what how much income is generated, you can restructure it accordingly as well, right? So there's protection there because, you know, you have all these different corporate entities. but there's a framework involved also.

3:10 And then that also opens the door if, let's say, you want to bring in any family members to the company or to the overall framework. You want to start gifting other types of irrevocable trust potentially can get involved. So, you know, from the from the beginning or not even from the beginning, at any point, like, you know, it's something along those lines. You have an eye on the future, it really helps you moving forward. So, one of the common themes, of course, I'm a real estate, people sell their house when they move, or look for a house somewhere else. but it seems to me the common topic amongst, you know, high net worth people, ultra high net worth people, is either A, moving or B, protecting assets as best they can from California's increasing tax rates. Now, it seems that other states are doing the same thing. So, you must have customers who are clients who call you and say, "What do I do?" What are some of the common questions you're getting? What are some of the common tactics or strategies that you're helping them employ?

4:07 Well, some people just straight up move. But, if let's say if you have real estate if you have different properties, but they're located in California, they're California sourced, right? So, it's hard to avoid California tax and things like that. That being said, there are ways, meaning if let's say they're not moving, which I wouldn't expect them to necessarily, even though a lot are, there are different types of trusts out of state that you can or a family can implement from a tax standpoint, right? Nevada, South Dakota, Wyoming, all these states are way more advantageous from a tax standpoint than California. Frankly, most states are more advantageous from a tax standpoint than California. But, I mean, you know, those are some of the options that that a client can avail him or herself of. From a protection standpoint, there are a lot of trusts that you can handle also, right? The key is to kind of get the most of both worlds. So, that just depends on the client and that client's balance sheet and things like that. But, I mean, from a protection standpoint, an irrevocable trust. Well, we touched upon corporate structuring, so that's protection in and of itself. But, further protection is when certain types of irrevocable trusts are involved. And again, depending on the situation, depending on the goals of the family and the clients depending on the nature of the assets, all of and their plans moving forward and down the line, different types of trusts can very much be relevant, right? There is One example is is that is the concept of a SLAT.

5:47 A SLAT is an acronym for Spousal Lifetime Access Trust. And it's basically a husband implementing an irrevocable trust for the benefit of the wife and a wife implementing an irrevocable trust, a SLAT, for the benefit of the husband. And what this does is let's say you have just a property. and so rather than the property being owned by the husband and wife together, you would divide it up. You would kind of segregate bifurcate the interest, 50% to one SLAT number one, 50% to SLAT number two. And when that happens, number one, a property or an asset that has multiple owners already, there's inherently less incentive for somebody to go after. But given the fact that again, there's multiple owners on this property and each of those owners are irrevocable trust, that that affords the clients even more protection. I'm just taking a step back, I should probably explain what an irrevocable trust is broadly. So, there's a concept of a revocable trust or irrevocable trust and an irrevocable trust. A revocable trust I is, you know, the person, let's say you have a husband and wife forming a revocable family trust. It's fully in the husband and wife's control. It's fully revocable, fully amendable. I have a client, I would advise against this, but that's not the point of me bringing it up now. I have a client that's on their 28th amendment to their revocable trust.

7:18 Wow. They came to me at 20 at amendment number 25. and it's as of late, so I guess that they finally they're okay with what they decided, but the point is they could do that. And they could do another 25, 28, 29 if they wanted to and then the next day they could revoke it as if it never happened. It is fully in their control. And because it's fully in their control, there's not really a lot of protection that could be afforded them. however, an irrevocable trust is the grantors, the people implementing the trust and establishing the trust I are separate and removed from the assets contained in the irrevocable trust. It is a different entity. It has its own tax ID number. And if it's maintained that way and managed accordingly, since it's separate and removed, like that's the irrevocable trust and this is me, so an asset contained in the irrevocable trust would be difficult for someone if they're want to sue the husband, it'd be difficult for them to reach the assets contained in the irrevocable trust. Again, there's a lot more to it, but in broad strokes, that's kind of the difference between the irrevocable and the revocable trust. The irrevocable trust, the husband and wife do not have control. Now again, there are ways to structure it where the wife can benefit, you can still have some authorities, there's no question about it, but in broad strokes, that's kind of what it is. So the SLAT is SLATs are is a is an irrevocable trust between spouses.

8:49 And that's just one irrevocable trust. There are a bunch out there. you know, you have a gifting trust and that that that could be a dynasty trust, an ILIT, which is a life insurance trust, which we can get into if you would like, which people might want to hear because it's Anyone who has a life insurance policy would make a lot of sense to have an ILIT involved. Talk about that cuz I know that's I've been I think we have a mutual friend, Rick Brown, who's really involved in insurance and has probably estate planning experience. And frankly, this area I'm not very familiar with, but I know it's a very powerful tool when used properly. Yeah, so a life insurance trust, let's say well, here, let's get let's take a step back again. we every kind of election cycle, the concept of the estate tax comes up. generally speaking, one party likes it. the benchmark, the threshold to be higher, and another party generally likes it to be lower. What does that mean? So, every dollar of a person's estate beyond the estate tax threshold is taxed roughly, give or take it around 40%, 37-40%. Every dollar below the threshold is not taxed, right? So, for high net worth individuals, right now it's 15 million dollars per person, so 30 million dollars for a couple. So, let's say you have a couple worth 35 million dollars, as a net worth of 35 million.

10:13 So, 5 million you know, 30 million to 35, 5 million will be taxed with the estate tax of that 40% estate tax. So, generally speaking, one party likes it higher to allow more people to not be taxed. Another party wants to tax, you know, people who are more, are more wealthy in the country, so they'll lower the estate tax threshold to 5 million, to 10 million, whatever the case may be, at least they'll want to. And that way more people will be taxed. So, that's what the estate tax is. Every dollar in that that's included in the estate will go towards this estate tax calculation. Now, life insurance, if let's say has someone has a policy worth the death benefit of 10 million dollars that 10 million dollars is includable in the calculation for that person's estate, right? So, if let's say somebody's husband and wife is worth 25 million dollars, or whatever the case may be, and they have a 10 million dollar policy and they both die so in theory, that 10 million dollars is includable in the estate, and they have an estate value of 35 million dollars, in which case again they'd be taxed, their estate would be taxed at 5 million dollars with the estate tax. If the policy is owned by an irrevocable life insurance trust, Like I said before, an irrevocable trust is separate from me, separate from her, separate from him, whatever the whatever it is.

11:39 So, because it's owned by an irrevocable trust, it's not includable in the estate. So, that $10 million policy is owned that $10 million policy is owned by the trust, by the ILIT. The insured is obviously the husband or the wife or both. Let's say a second to die policy. And upon death, the proceeds of the life insurance policy is is transferred into this irrevocable life insurance trust account. The beneficiaries can be the children, whatever the grantors, whatever the clients, however they want to structure it. And it's basically from an estate standpoint, it's free money to the estate. That way, if there is an estate tax, they don't have to liquidate assets, real estate, if investment accounts, whatever [clears throat] it may be, they can utilize that $10 million death payout from the life insurance policy, pay off whatever the estate tax they need to do, and do whatever else they want. So, an ILIT is it's very useful. I would say, you know, it doesn't cost a ton to implement to draft and implement an ILIT. So, if a if a husband and a wife or just anybody has life insurance, it would at least be sensible to contemplate. Well, particularly if they all the assets are illiquid, right? If you have a large portfolio of real estate and don't have stocks and bonds. And I have a client who that was his case, and he did very well. The problem is you have you have taxes that are due, and if the only assets are real estate, now you're selling real estate, you know, and you know, you're under pressure, maybe not the stress, but there's pressure to get it sold a certain period of time, and sellers know or buyers know that. And I think also the other problem I see as a as professional real estate agent, that the decedent like really knew the property. Now, because he's gone, you're not really selling the property with the best information, with the best strategy, with the best you know, knowledge about the property. The wife knew nothing about it or the children knew nothing about it. It's just It's just an asset to them. And I

13:42 Feel like the family's really at a disadvantage to sell when they don't want to sell, but have to come up with cash versus insurance policy. Boom, he has some cash. He can use that to pay your taxes. And they you know, you can sell the property over time as it's comfortable rather than having to do it right away. Yeah, and a couple of points to that. So, I mean again, let's say you have a $10 million policy

14:02 [clears throat] you know, 5 million is taxed at 40%, right? So, you know, do the math, whatever it is. There's There's remaining money from these proceeds. The beneficiaries, the kids or whoever the beneficiaries are, they have free money. They're you know, they're they're receiving money. They can do whatever they want. They can they can make a down payment on a home. They can pay for their kids' college tuition. Who knows? It doesn't The point is it's you very useful. another point I will say you remind me while you were talking. I had a client once. She came to me. I didn't do the planning but her husband passed away. It was actually kind of sad. The her husband, they had 11 kids. Around. Not around. Give or take. At that point.

14:46 [clears throat] Now, they had 11 children. [laughter] The nicest people. And she comes to me and her husband 3 weeks prior was talking about it. He's like, you know what? He Oh, sorry. He was a lawyer. He had his own practice. He had his own firm. He had 10 or 11 attorneys working for him. He had 60 staff. This was kind of like an enterprise. He had zero planning done. And they were kind of, you know, old school where everything was basically in his name. Right? She had access, you know, all that stuff, but everything was in his name. And he had said to his assistant the week prior, "I really got to like kind of just do some planning, at least the basics. We got to do it, you know, my wife and I, whatever." So, she's like, "Okay." So, she's like, "Do you want me to reach out to a estate planning attorney, whatever?" So, he said, "Yeah, that would be great." A week later, he dropped dead. Mhm.

15:40 [snorts] Like I said, everything was in his name. They had no trust, they had no planning, they had no nothing. It was in his name personally. So, what happened what happens when this in this is kind of situation? All the accounts get frozen. Right. You go to probate, you get letters of administration, the surviving spouse is appointed, Right. all that stuff. And you know, we try we did everything we expedited everything, and frankly, I'm not really a probate attorney, but I do it as it relates to kind of like trusts and things like that. So, she called me. This is a woman that was worth roughly $25 million. And she called me from a bank, I'm not going to say which bank, in tears, because she couldn't she didn't have access to any funds to buy groceries. Right. Everything was frozen. Right. And I was like looking through all the documents. She had come to me 2 days prior. Like, she came to me after her husband passed away to try to do an administration and then planning afterwards for her and her whole family and everything like that. So, I did some digging and I found that he had she forgot about this, but I found it in like one of the files. She had a life insurance policy where she was designated beneficiary, no trust or anything. But, I called up the life insurance company. I was able to kind of get them to transfer the funds immediately, like right away.

17:00 And the funds from that life insurance policy were able to hold her over until we were able to unfreeze and gain her access to all of her accounts.

17:10 [snorts] and so, that's not a an argument for the ILIT, per se. I mean, if it was in an ILIT, it's still that wouldn't have been a problem either. But, you know, this the concept of life insurance and things like that, it could be beneficial for a lot of people. I'm not saying it's it should be universally done, that's for sure not. Right. Well, a plan should be universally done. I think you have to think about these transitions. I was involved in one as well where the decedent passed and he didn't have a spouse. He did have a child, but the child didn't need the money. But, the business did. Like, the at this time the bank he was banking at that time with First Republic, which you know, since went bankrupt, but at that time was So, [clears throat] because they're being bought out, they were very careful with paperwork, were ridiculously careful. And so, what should have been a quick process, here's a letter of authority, they wouldn't they took weeks and delayed and delayed and delayed. Then, they got bought by you don't want to say the name of the bank. I like to put the names of the bank on it cuz they're responsible, Chase. And Chase had just bought First Republic and gave us the excuse they're busy for weeks and weeks and then took them weeks literally had to be sued, literally had the power of attorney had to literally go to follow a motion in court to bring them to court to get them to recognize letters of authority. Meanwhile, how are we making payroll? And in the case of if your case is worse because the spouse knows nothing about the business. You have all these attorneys who, you know, need to get paid. You have You have, you know, frontline employees who, you know, they're living paycheck to paycheck. The money could be in the account. In this case, they had $40 million liquid. But, they couldn't access a penny of it even though they had a bunch of it that should have been because the banks are so incompetent.

18:45 So, I think this is where planning has to also come Who's who's going to step in and take charge of this? Who's going to run the business? Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. No, I'm saying who's running the business and how where's the money going to come from temporarily to kind of keep things moving because it's not a simple thing. You have an enterprise the size you're talking about. You're talking about payroll, you know, in the tens of thousands of dollars every couple weeks. Somebody's got to write those checks. Yeah, 100% and it's a good segue cuz another way that life insurance and ILIT can be beneficial and useful is if, let's say, you have a business or a practice or whatever. Let's say you're you have a dental practice and you and your partner, or it doesn't matter. I'm just picking a random thing. I guess I picked a dental practice cuz I recently had a filling, so, yeah. But, let's say you So, each of the dentists' spouses know nothing about dentistry. Nothing. The legal owner of the dental practice. So, what you do is you can use an insurance policy. This happens in planning. You can utilize through a buy-sell agreement, you can utilize a life insurance policy. Each dentist takes out a policy, on himself and the owner of that policy is the other dentist via this buy-sell agreement. And basically, what happens is if one say if dentist number one passes away, dentist number two uses the proceeds from the life insurance policy of dentist number one and buys out Right. spouse. Right. And vice versa. And then, you have trusts involved, you have all that, you know, you mean but these are all ways in which people can think about their business lasting or, just kind of like the next generation, right? And I mean, there are tons of ways in which, you know, when you're planning in terms of maximizing, protection and taxes and all that other kind of stuff, you also obviously have to think in the context of your family situation, right? And the dynamic that's involved. So, you know, all these things play a role. And if

20:48 Your goal, I mentioned it a gifting trust, that's something else, right? If you want if you're like if you say, and I had a client like this, super impressive, honestly, that, you know, she was worth quite a penny. Her husband passed away 10, 15 years ago. And no, not that long ago, but whatever. Her husband passed away and she's like I have enough money. Like what do I need to save like I want to just give it to my kids and my grandkids. Like what do I need all this for? Like and she was like very like selfless and generous about it. And like she didn't want to keep a lot of the money. She's like I don't want this. I don't need this. Just give it to my kids and grandkids now. I said yeah, but that's not what your trust says. Like I can't just magically do it. But some of it I could, but not for all of them. And you know, that's something to be to think about. Now, a gifting trust, like I said before, what can be helpful number one, it maximizes protection because you're getting money out of your estate and you're quote unquote transferring it downward downstream to your kids or grandkids. But what happens is is that let's say you have let's say you have a couple of kids that are relatively young or you have a couple of grandkids that are relatively young and you have you have three children and they all have their own kids and those kids are pretty young. So, irrevocable trust. I call it a gifting trust.

22:08 Excuse me, other people call it different names. And there's an exemption an annual gift exemption. Just like I said, there's a lifetime exemption of 15 million and that the estate tax benchmark, that's for the lifetime overall, the overall estate. Annually a person a donor can gift and it changes from year to year, but now it's $19,000 annually donor to donee. What that means like I can gift to you 19,000 to your spouse 19,000 to my friend 19,000 to my partner next door for me 19,000 and it's all exempt from taxes up to that $19,000 annual threshold. But you can do it year over year 19,000 or whatever that exemption is. So, if let's say you have three children and five grandchildren, that's eight people overall. You make them the [snorts] beneficiaries of this irrevocable gifting trust, you can contribute whatever 19,000 * 8 is year after year annually, right? And the trustee can then invest that money. You could so borrow against the money contained in the trust and you can grow and grow and grow so a nice nest egg for your family down the line, right? Cuz it'll constantly be invested. You're contributing annually to it if you want. You don't have to, but you know, you can and [clears throat] it really that's also very good planning for and you can have other assets contained it's an irrevocable trust, right? If you're okay with the framework that that trust how the in which and the manner in which that trust is structured and the trustee who's managing the trust. So other assets can be held in there as well. Business interests, yeah, investments, whatever the case may be.

23:49 So like I said, I get there are a lot of different types of instruments out there that a client could utilize. It's just a question of what makes the most sense for them in that situation. yeah. I think we talked last time you mentioned that you have clients who are like creators or have, you know, significant intellectual property. And I know in LA that's becoming an increasing source of wealth of the businesses that we seem to attract and are growing. Talk about some of the unique issues cuz obviously it's hard to value some of these assets. They can generate tremendous income, but they may or may not last. They get replaced by some other app. So what are some of the issues in estate planning when you have a creator who has, let's say, some substantial IP. It's not money in the bank, it's not real estate, but it's an asset worth a lot of money.

24:37 Yeah, I mean this the most recently was like with crypto, let's say, where you know, you ask you can ask 100 people what's the value of this crypto asset or account or whatever and you'll get like 150 different answers. Like there's really very difficult way to value it, but also with some of these it's

24:58 [clears throat] just as hard to title it in a way that you want. To have it in your name or I mean from my standpoint in your let's say your trust name, whether it be revocable or whatever. yeah, it's I mean I actually I mean I'm a partner at Leech Tishman right now. I moved here about a year and a half two years ago from another firm in Century City. There I worked with the IP attorney and I actually have specific language for digital assets. Mhm. if it's relevant obviously to the client, right? So whether it be tech, whether it be you know, accounts, bank accounts online, that kind of thing, whether it be you know, just straight up old school IP. You know, writings, novels, you know, whatever the case may sometimes I'll carve [snorts] out completely separate provisions specifically with regard to the IP and have Well, let's say we have person number one designated as the trustee of the trust overall, but for the IP they'll be the that another person will be the IP trustee. Mhm. Manage those assets, right? So they're depending on those So number one, it's structuring the trust and the provisions in the trust specific to the IP that we're dealing with, but also and this is this also applies to everything.

26:29 Ensuring that it's properly titled, whatever the IP is, whatever the asset is Right. in the trust, cuz otherwise it's worthless. What's the point of having the trust? I always say this to people, if you have a trust and you don't actually title your assets in the name of the trust, it's like having an a an empty bucket and it serves zero purpose. So How do you title like domain names and YouTube channels like

26:50 Exactly. It's a very Yeah, like it's it's you have to really because there's no real way to do it. You have to go out of your way to be as specific as possible. I know that I mean personally I've some I've been thinking about some building you know business based on a couple you know YouTube channels and followings I've come across

27:08 I have a successful podcast obviously. It's done well and yet you know who owns the domain? Well, if you go on to the registrar it's me which for now it's not that much money it's not really it's not really worth worrying about today but the goal is it should be worth something at some point and those things are tricky to transfer or again if YouTube if YouTube insists this in Bill Gross and I in my corp or my LLC I imagine somebody can make a case that that becomes probatable or whatever. So that actually yeah, you remind me of so that's another way of doing it, right? If you could title some of these digital assets in the name of like let's say an LLC. That's very easy because it's in the name of the LLC and then the member of the LLC the owner of the LLC can be your trust and that makes it much easier, right? So I did this a couple of times where there was an LLC that contained all the digital assets. You just put everything you title everything as much as you can in the name of the LLC and the member of the LLC was the trust and that's it. I have another client who has a bunch of albums and recordings from like the 70s and the 80s.

28:11 [snorts] Really very interesting guy. And I said we got to get this all in your trust. He's like I don't even know where to begin to do something like that. Like I'm like do you have any documentation? He's like I have it somewhere. So you know it requires some digging it requires creativity. Yeah. I actually one time wrote like one of these insight articles about digital assets and estate planning. I can try to find it. but yeah, I mean it's it's that and it's like an evolving sub specialty within estate planning I would say. Because there's no clear thing to do everyone has an opinion, you know? Everyone say, "Well, this makes sense and that makes sense." You know, I limit myself primarily to the real estate world. I listen in on the other discussions, but like in real estate, technically speaking, if there's an LLC and the member of the LLC is the trust, or even if the let's say not trust, let's say they didn't plan ahead. You just have an LLC and it's owned by the individual. This trust owned by the individual. So, there are opinions of judges who allow us to transfer property and title companies will insure it that we can transfer title of property in the LLC, even though it's in probate. And so, where normally you might need to go through probate approval, let's say confirmation sale if it's contested or notice of proposed action if it's not, because you're not selling real estate, you're selling shares of an LLC and it's structured that way. Well, that's debatable cuz we had attorneys who were arguing about that it wasn't and it was just interesting to watch. and I know that there are judges who've approved it. I've been involved in them and that's a big victory for the estate if they can make that change. and yet, you know, it's controversial. So, like I say, a lot of these things are evolving. They're not written out in stone tablets handed to Moses on the mountain. Well, that basically hinges on that discussion revolves around kind of the nature of the interest ultimately and the ownership the person that the decedent the nature of the ownership interest

30:14 That the person had. Was it an LLC interest or was it a property interest? That's kind of where that discussion lies. But, yeah, no, you're 100% right. I mean, there is there's a lot of like nuance to this to do it right, especially when it comes to digital assets cuz again, it's it's as we go with AI and all these other things, so many new issues pop up, you know? So talk about the kind of nuts and bolts of the practice as we as wrap up. I'm kind of at the end of my time with you, but you know, if somebody has questions in these areas, these are very complicated issues, obviously, because they can ask a simple question, but it's part of a complicated trust situation. Yeah. The answer requires you to get a lot more information, a lot more digging. So at what stage should somebody just feel comfortable reaching out to you? Or is there What's the process look like if somebody starts these questions?

31:04 Out whenever they want. That's for sure. That's number one. Number two, you know, I work My firm is not a trust and estates firm. I am a member of the trust and estates practice group within my broader firm, but the my firm has a corporate department, a transactional, real estate, bankruptcy, labor and employment, litigation, you know, anything that really has to do with business. And so that, you know, it happens all the time where depending on the client and the industry that the client works in or whatever the case may be. We have a big healthcare practice as well. So I can bring in or I can reach out and often collaborate with my colleagues in those areas and with that's relevant to the client's matter. And so they bring me in whenever there are trusts involved. Very often, I can give you stories about that. And I bring them in. Right? And we also have We have offices across the country. not in every city, but in a in a decent amount. And so I have a client that I brought in There are I have There are two attorneys in the Pittsburgh office in my firm that specialize in SEC compliance. Mhm. So my client has a couple of businesses in which he really needed an attorney like that. And so we collaborate with attorneys in Pittsburgh, right? the attorney next door to me is a real estate attorney. That we collaborate all the time, as you can imagine, between trusts and real estate.

32:32 So if any if a client ever has a question come up obviously in the context of trust and estates, but also, you know, otherwise, but it's it they could see how this could relate to their trust or the lack thereof, they can always just feel free to reach out and just ask a question. I'm not I'm not picky. We'll put his We'll put his contact information below. Steve Kirschenbaum is a partner at Leech Tishman and it's leechtishman.com is the website. Down below we have the contact phone number, email, and such to get in touch with him. And if you're listening to this while you're driving or something, feel free to reach out to me. I'll be more than glad to make the connection. I full disclosure, I see Steve socially a couple times a week, it seems like, so I can get a hold of him even if he's avoiding his phone. I can get a hold of I can find him. Don't worry about it if ever interested. Steve, thanks so much for your time. I think we really learned a lot about some of the details of these more complicated estate plans. Look forward to continuing the discussion going forward. Thanks so much, Bill. I really appreciate you having me on. And for those of you listening, this is [The Estate Planning Podcast]. We get together every week and usually talk to an estate planning attorney. So often times not as complicated as Steve handles. He handles really some high-net-worth and ultra-high-net-worth. It was really interesting to learn some of those issues today. if I can help in any way, please reach out at Bill Gross Probate. And as always, make today your best day ever. Thank