Activating a Trust Before You Sell the House, with Attorney Jennifer Sawday

0:01 Okay, so the bad news is somebody has passed that's dear to you and we all have those losses and the good news might be they left a property that can be liquidated and sold and generate income and wealth for people who remain family members and such or other causes. and so you get all excited because hey I got this property let's just go ahead and sell it. And you call a real estate agent and next thing you know it's on the MLS ready to sell. But is it ready to sell? It may not be. Today we have really returning one of my favorite attorneys. I met her on her LinkedIn and if you really want to follow a spicy LinkedIn and I don't mean cooking spices, I mean she's going to tell you where it really falls. Jennifer is a partner at TLD Law. Jennifer, thanks for coming back. What are you just selling because somebody's passed and it's in a trust, right? There's some other steps involved.

0:52 Yeah. Well, thank you for having me back. I am a little spicy and that's okay. I [laughter] love it. No, I love it. Okay. So, I do love my real estate agents, all of you. But I need everyone to understand how trust administration works. First, we want to make sure that the property that you're trying to sell is actually in the trust.

1:16 So, I want you to talk to your title rep, pull a premium title profile, and pull the last vesting that shows that it's actually owned by the trust. When you do that, that deed is probably shown in the name of the dead person as trustee of their own trust. So the person that you're talking to may be what we call the successor trustee. You need to make sure that they have authority to do the work.

1:45 Hold on. Hold on one second. You just ran over a piece of gold there. I'll make sure that the agents listing in particular and attorneys understand that that that you can actually do the research before you sell the property and the best practice is when somebody says hey I have this property and I do want to sell it is to order prelim title report and most companies will accommodate you now you have an actual record and also usually give you a free tool you can use to check online records we have the MLS you can see the last deed and verify for yourself because customers will say I have a trust And what they're referring to is they did an estate plan and the attorney gave him this great book, this big notebook, no hydide or leather, but they never put the property into the trust legally. And so a very important step is start off with a prelim report and or a minimum the last deeds in. So you jumped over that. That's a key step I think that we all as agents can do and attorneys can require before you get too far.

2:39 Yeah. You want to your title rep will give you into the database or they'll do it for you. Yeah. Do you want to double check to make sure that the property that you're talking about is actually vested, registered, or owned by the trust,

2:51 Right? You can confirm that with the property tax bill in California. It'll say the word TR after someone's name. So like my home in Long Beach says S family TR. So you know my husband and I have it in the trust. So that's step one. You do it privately. And then you want to ask to see a copy of the trust. You have to. And if the property owner has died, you'll want the death certificate. So you need three things. It's in the trust, a copy of the trust, and then the death certificate.

3:20 And then one second just so because again, you're just dropping gold here, and I don't think you realize, and for those watching, this is why I love her. So copy of the trust. So does a copy of the trust literally suffice or do you need to get a copy from the original? What's the what's the standard requirement? Yeah, we don't need the original. Some title companies will require it. It's odd when they do. They think so something fishy. You haven't done your homework. You're backtracking on the deal. You're in a rush. You're trying to close tomorrow. No, I want you to do it all up front. A cop is usually fine.

3:57 Okay. but you want to make sure that the copy that you have is the latest version, right? So if the date shows that it was done in 2014 and you have a 1998 version, there's a disconnect there. So you have to look at names and dates, they make sure you have the right trust.

4:13 Then you have to ask, is there an amendment? I don't know. When I do a trust with someone and I send them home with a binder, they may amend it themselves or with another attorney and there's overlay. So what's in my file electronically may not be the rated. So we have to do a little bit of research and double check. You go

4:31 Hold on. There's another piece of gold right there. Now, let's because oftentimes customers will just send you the trust and you go, "Oh, that's and I've had this happen. Oh, that's great." Then you find out that they restated the trust or they amended the trust 5 10 years later and made dramatic changes as to who's the trustee or what assets are in or out. And so, again, piece of gold there. I and I'll admit, I've never even asked that question. I know I got caught blindsided once and I never thought to make that a procedure, but make sure you have the list. At least ask them the question to their knowledge. Do they have the most? And again, this also explains why sometimes attorneys are hesitant to provide what they may or may not have because they don't know if it's the latest. They don't know if it was amended. So, I'm sorry, just dropping some bombs here, so I actually recapture.

5:11 Yeah. Yeah. But understand that if the trust itself has been at least dated in the first page or so, it'll say anything vested in the first date or as amended and it with all the dates, it's considered part of this new baby. If that's the case, you're good. So, if I did a trust in 2004 and I amended it and restated in 2026, inside that trust, it should list all my dates and it should have a sentence. Anything that's in any of these states or permutations is considered part of this trust. That's good. That's all we need. But now we have a dead body on title as a trustee. We need to replace that person. So, we need to do an affidavit of change of trustee. And that trustee that's in charge needs to prepare a document called a certificate of trust or certification of trust which is a legal document in California that says they're now in charge. So has recital how the trust got formed who died with the death certificate and put in terms of the trust that shows that they're the trustee that needs to be done. I can do it, the client can do it, meaning the seller or the real estate agent could do it through escrow, but it needs to be done.

6:25 So that has to be recorded. There needs to be a chain of title, right, Sharon, we have a guy here. Yeah. So that's another key point again, you just dropped some bombs here that the title company and the proper process is that you send the documents to the title company. They're the ones who issue the title report. They say who the trust is and then you give them a copy of the death cert and you give them a copy of the trust certification or the escrow can prepare it. And then once they review these they should say either go or no go either hey all this looks good or hey in this certificate it mentions some other restatement or amendment that you're not providing and something doesn't look right. But again all this can be done ahead of time and should be done ahead of time. The other thing is you don't need the whole trust because as Jen mentioned, you can get a certificate of the trust which will authorize the escrow company to make the transaction. It's better than a driver's license. That's all they get on a seller who's alive and human. So again, these are things that these are stages you learn the process and we want to make as efficient as we can.

7:24 Yeah. But that certificate of trust or certification is notarized, right? So it's usually notarized with a draw, which means you're swaying that the information is true. So that goes a long way. Now you have a copy of the trust. You have the deed. You have a death certificate. Now you have that.

7:40 But now you can't just go sell it. You have to open up a bank account in the name of the trust. So if you're the trustee, let's say Jennifer is the trustee. It has to say Jennifer, successor trustee of the name of the trust. I have to open up a bank account. Now social security numbers go to the grave when people pass. So now we have to get an EIN number. It's called an employer identification number for that trust through the IRS to use that number to report the sale of the property. So, you get all those documents, you get your certificate of trust, you get a bank account open, you put $100 in there, you advance money to the trust, you use the EIN number for the bank, and now you have an account open. So, as you go through the process and you're getting ready to close, escrow knows to wire the fund to a trust account. The escrow won't wire the fund to a non-trust account. So, you have to set it up,

8:37 Right? And now, here's the part. You have to work with a trust friendly bank. Banks are not it. I will go on the record to say it. That bank down the street that has 100 ATMs and it name starts with a C ain't it. go to a trust friendly bank. Your local bank or hey, even better, the banker that I suggest. My banker already knows my documents will open it. I'm not involved. I'm just giving you a key to say this bank's pretty good.

9:08 So, Okay. So, again, some bombs here because the classic case is the person doing it doing it themselves runs down to one of the big C's or BFA or Wells Fargo and says, "Hey, and I can name names. It's my podcast, so I'm gonna go ahead and name names." and they'll say, "Oh, I have a trust. I have an open account." They'll say, "Oh, well, you need a, you know, court order." Well, no, you don't need a court order. This is not a probate. And then you come back and say, they'll say, "Okay, well, we need a, you know, a notarized copy of

9:38 This." Okay, now we need a certified notarized copy of that. Yeah. And they don't even know what they need. What they do know is if they open account, there's a problem, they're going to get fired, and that's all they care about. And so, my experience is, now I'm just curious. Do you want to give a promo a shout out to your bank? Which bank do you recommend? So, I don't mind the credit unions. I think most of my local credit unions in Southern California do a good job.

10:00 Wow. They're very client friendly, very trust friendly. So, all of the credit unions, you know, talking Navy Federal, Schools First, LBS Financial, Partners, Connector, all the credit unions, Arrowhead, they all do a good job.

10:14 Affiliated with the credit union, go for it. Your local regional bank that's stepped down from the big ones, it's probably fine. I do have a couple favorite bankers that I like at local branches and I have one girl that I adore in particular. I've never met her, but I just send the packet and she does it. but if people want those referrals, I'm happy to give them offline, but I don't want to kill my business by saying this is the best. But that's the point. I've been doing this for 20 years. I know what I'm doing. I can make it happen. It's like an orchestra. So, if I give you advice or suggest and if you want it to be easy, go for it. But when you come back to me and you say, "Wow, you were right. Lago gave me a hard time. I don't know what else to say. I already told you." [sighs and gasps]

11:01 So, and I think also this is what separates the people who want to do probate and trust administration from those who do it every day. That you know, just because you have a law license to practice it or a real estate license to sell it doesn't mean you know what you're doing. And when you do these things for a period of time, like I have my favorite banker to recommend to attorneys because sometimes attorneys have cases where they want to maybe the customer's not bondable, they want to be able to sign, but they don't want the liabilities. There's a bank that I work with, American Business Bank, does a great job of controlling security to enable an attorney to safely co-sign on checks with their clients. But I wouldn't recommend them for all consumers. It's really it's really for a professional fiduciary, professional attorney. And then like you say on the retail side there are banks that do these things like all online which is great because most people don't want to ever go to a bank. Why would you ever want to go to a bank in Los Angeles all there are people sleeping on the [laughter] ground when you want to bring up your point I do have a banker that will open up the account with you electronically by FedEx.

12:02 Nice small very fiduciary based bank. It's hard to get over the hump you know to understand that they will keep your money safe but they actually do a better job of watching all the transactions. You don't get a checkbook. You just get online access. And as you need to distribute money, they issue cashier's checks for you free. But that's that's a model for them. We can talk about that.

12:21 But let's say so let's say you've done all those things right now. As you've done all those things, you also have to give notice.

12:30 Okay. So, the title company finds out that you're representing yourself and you have an heir that's been disinherited or someone that's missing and they read the trust and they see a problem and you haven't given notice, you've got a problem there. They want to make sure that's done. So, we can talk about that a little bit. And then you also have to notify the assessor separately. There's a form, it's called death of your property owner. You have to tell the local assessor within 150 days of someone's passing. It's required by law if you're the trustee to fill out this form and send it in. Then that form creates a series of forms where we talk about Prop 19. So there's three things that need to be done. Establish your authority, get that bank account open, do the trust notification, and then also notify the assessor. Three things happening all at once.

13:23 And that's why I consider really trust administration as a job. Whether you hire somebody to do it for you or you hire yourself to do it's a business. You know, if you have a million dollars of property to liquidate, you've now become the CEO of a company whose business is liquidating a million dollars worth of stuff. And the fact they happen to be your parents previously or your siblings doesn't change the fact it really is a business and is also a business you're probably only do once in your life unless you're professional. and so every single step is a learning stage versus your current business is something you're probably more familiar with. So people will say, well, I'm I run a big business. I'm, you know, I'm used to making these kind of decisions all day long. That's true, but you have a certain set of vendors you work with, a certain set of adviserss, consultants, employees, critical people who help you do these things. And that's the beauty of having an attorney, I think, a good point. I we do work with a lot of business professionals that think it's easy. It is. But you're right. You've got to hire us to help you. And so, as the trust attorney, I don't attract litigation because I'm not a litigator, right? I don't attract it. I don't create it. I don't want it. I mean, my firm can serve you, but that's not what I bring to the table. Most people hire clients that most, let me say it again. Most clients hire attorneys that have similar personalities. This is that. So, I'm very anxious. I'm very hyper. And I'm also very by the book. I do everything one step at a time. So those clients that work with me would tend to get it done and do it fabulously.

14:55 I don't mind if you're the right person doing it and we'll do it. But you've got to work with me and let me help you right. We can have a young match in the office. I did that last week with a doctor. She goes, "Oh, I've got to sell my mom's house." I said, "Yeah, that house is a hot potato." She goes, "Yeah, I'm going to put on the market in December." I go, "What are you going to do that for? You're stupid." And she looked at me, "What do you mean?" And I go, "That means you're filing a trust tax return because you're going to close escrow in 2027. You're going to file that tax return in 2028. Why are you going to do that?" And she looked at me. She goes, "Oh, I had no idea." Go, "That house is a hot potato. It's vacant. You live in the East Coast. Put it on the market tomorrow. Sell it before Thanksgiving so you can file the final tax return for the trust in 2027." And she's the only kid. And she looked at me and she said, "Thank you." I had no idea,

15:49 Right? And she yelled at me. We pushed back and we go back and forth, but everyone's got an understanding of how my brain works, what you're thinking about, and then you can decide, but you've got to hear it,

15:59 Right? You have to. Yeah, I think obviously the courage, one thing you have is the courage to tell people the truth. I like to think I do, too. I think that's why I enjoy you so much is I aspire to be as honest and clear, I think, as you are. And I like the way you approach that. So, okay. So let's so we talked a bit about getting the authority. Let's talk about the second stage which is notice. So you know you become the successor trustee to this trust and you have to notice the county about the death because if you don't inevitably there's going to be a reassessment and all you're doing is you're waiting you're pushing off the date for that reassessment happen. What I understand in LA County is regardless of how you fill the form out they're going to send you a reassessment.

16:39 Yeah. And then force you to challenge it and you have a deadline to challenge it. If you don't, then you lose, even if you have the form out correctly originally. Is that your experience?

16:50 Yeah. So, LA County is pretty bad right now in terms of property tax assessment. Orange County and the other smaller counties are better staffed. They have less property dealings, so you're able to get them on the phone and work with them.

17:05 If you fill out the form correctly, there should be no issue. Yeah, it's it's hard. All deaths of all property owners is 100% reassessment no matter what unless there's a exclusion. There's only two exclusions that apply. One is it's for a surviving spouse or surviving registered domestic partner. That's it. You have to be married or connected to that person. Spouse or domestic partner. You said you have to say that. If you don't throw off the form to say it, they don't know. And you said specifically registered domestic partners. The fact that you lived like a spouse

17:44 Doesn't have that legal weight. You have to actually have there's a process that you kind of like getting married a marriage certificate called registered domestic. Yes. You have to pay the fee with the secretary of state. Get a piece of paper. It's blank. It's white. It has blue and it says that confirms your registered domestic partner.

18:00 Right. Or you have to have a marriage certificate. You have to tell them because they don't know, right? And you might buy property together with someone and then get married after. Or your spouse may have held it in their name in their trust and now you're the surviving spouse. You have to tell them. If you fill out the form and you sign the back of it says under the penalty of perjury that is true. They believe you. But if you don't send it in, they don't know.

18:27 So that's one category. The other category is more tricky. It has to be a child and it has to be the primary home of the parent and the primary home of the child and you have to fill in the form, send it in and then you also have to fill in a secondary form called the homeowners exemption within a year of death. Those forms in LA County, we send them by registered mail. We get confirmation that they've been received and they still reassess. They're reassessing about 40% of the time. I'm finding appeals left and right in LA County all day long.

19:06 Yeah, I'm pretty upset about it. I almost want to figure out how to talk to the assessor to say, "Look, bro, how can we fix it? I sent it in and you're still messing up. What's wrong?" In other counties, I can call them Orange County, San Diego, Riverside, San Bernardino to say, "Hey, I sent it in. What happened?" And they go, "Oh." And you can hear them quick. Oh, thick. In LA, they say pay the bill.

19:32 Yeah. File the appeal and wait two years, right, to get an appeal, hearing and then you may get a refund. It's bad,

19:40 Right? So, I do encourage my property owners in LA County maybe to walk in the form. I can mail it in, but you walk it in. Together, we can make it work.

19:51 But LA County is a hot mess. And I don't mean it in a bad way. They're just overwhelmed. You know, in 2025, we had those fires, right? So, we had the fires in Altadena, we had the fires in Pacific Palisades. So, all those property structure that got damaged, the property tax bills had to be zeroed out, reset, and adjusted. 13 to 18,000 structures. That's a nightmare in terms of staffing and logistics.

20:16 Yeah, but they were they were this far behind before that. I believe I mean, I'm not running for office or anything. I [laughter] I don't know what else to do. I'm I'm just an attorney. I feel like I'm in the Richard Gary book. I'm the lonely worm. There's nothing I can do. So, I can sit on your platform. You get me on YouTube and maybe someone in the assessor's office will say, "You know what? This attorney the pain in the ass, but she's not wrong. Let's come."

20:40 No, I think I think I think they know that you're right. And I think this is a way they collect extra money because many people will just pay it.

20:49 I don't know about that. I think they just don't have the training and they don't have grace to give us a little bit of time or chuck the mail and they have stacks of mail. I asked an examiner the other day, "When do you get these forms? How do you get them? Do you get them assigned by neighborhood?" And they go, "Oh, no. We just walk over and just pick up a pile." I go, "Really? There's no method to this madness?"

21:12 No. So, yeah. Okay. So, that's a whole debate we can get. we get another time.

21:21 So, and now noticing the county for property taxes you mentioned. there's another notice when I tell my clients I make them sign a letter now, the property taxes are going to be reassess unless the F qualify for one of these exclusions,

21:36 Right? I do tell them they're going to get what we call a supplemental tax bill after the property's been sold. Yes. So, let's talk about this. When you sell a property this month or next month when someone has died, the assessor doesn't know to reassess it until later. So, a couple months behind. So, when you sell the property and in the closing statement, you put down the estimated property tax proration. That's the old amount. That's the amount before the homeowner died. The reassessment doesn't kick in that fast. You're going to get a bill for the difference. It's going to go up from date of death until you close escrow. You're going to get a supplemental tax bill for that difference. It's not secured. It's not tied to the property. It's going to be sent to you. So, when you get the money from the sale, you can't distribute the entire account to zero. You have to hold back money. We have to hold back 30 40 $50,000 to file the trust tax return, pay capital gain taxes if we have any final expenses and for the property tax reserve because it's coming.

22:42 It's coming. You can still consider the trust terminated, do the major distribution, but you're holding back what we call a kitty for the little small stuff, but you keep that in a non-interest bearing account so you don't have to file another return again. But that's how you do it. If a administrator distributes too much or let's say all the funds and then realizes they have a bill due that should have been from all partners from all the heirs or beneficiaries are they able to call back from the beneficiaries are the beneficiaries obligated to return

23:11 They can but what a mess I've I've had a couple times. Yeah. Yeah. So I tell I tell them just hold back enough. You know the property tax is a good calculation is to take the value of the property that you sold it as a selling price a million bucks or whatever and then take a function of that amount and hold that as the reserve. It might be too much but that's better than not having enough

23:34 From the data. I usually do one and a half% or 2%. To hold back and again this is this calculated from the date of death. This I mean I've seen trusts where they didn't do anything for five, six, seven, eight years. I'm in litigation now with a large trust where you never file any tax returns or any reassess any

23:53 It's hard. I mean that that's why it's important to make sure that when you take a listing you've got to check title. I don't want you to email me on Sunday to say I'm closing Monday. We found out that it's not in the trust. [laughter] And I'm dealing with agents that I know in the area that have 30 to 40 years of experience. And I'm like, you know better. And it's usually the title reps that are calling me say, "Jennifer, what can you do?"

24:22 Well, that's why I do this podcast, Jennifer. Yeah. They don't you know how they can do better. I don't I mean, as a real estate agent, they don't teach us this material. There's nowhere in car for association realtors. Our brokerages really don't teach this stuff. The associations of realtorization will teach you how to get more listings. And so that's why I saw through this podcast and that's why I'm glad to have you on. And I also and I say this, I really enjoy reading your LinkedIn. I mean, how where can I learn these things? Well, following people like you and so I follow you on LinkedIn and we comment a couple times on I asked you a question. You were nice enough to answer it on the LinkedIn and I said, "Well, I don't even know her, but I'll give her a call and see if she'll come on my show." And you did. So, that's great. Let me ask one other one last year because I know you have limited time with you today. on notices, there's a whole another group we haven't talked about yet, which is noticing either other beneficiaries who are expecting to receive some distribution or what are called heirs at law, meaning they would normally receive a distribution. They may or may not based on how the trust is written. So, talk a bit about the requirements to notice those people.

25:22 Have one. I mean, there's a Probate Code section out there. It's 16061.7. And when a trust becomes irrevocable, the trustee changes or someone has passed, there's a duty to give a notice on paper and serve it by mail. With a notice saying they have the right to see the trust and that notice limits the contest period. So I usually prepare it. The client signs it. I include a copy of the trust and all the amendments, the whole packet, and I mail it. From the day that I mail it, every person that's on that list has 120 days to contest the terms of the trust. So, in theory, you're supposed to give notice to everyone named in the document. Even if they're getting a dollar or they've been disinherited, give notice. So, if you have an ex-husband and you name him, he's getting noticed. Like why would you put them in there? You don't. But we have that. And then you have to give notice to natural next of kin. So there's people in there that are missing that should have been included. They were married. They got married after the trust was done. The children that they're not providing for. People missing. You have to give notice to everyone.

26:40 If you've given proper notice to the last known address, they would have all that. and 120 days has gone by and they come back and they file a contest, we can usually beat that in court. Say we gave you notice, the time period is passed, you're getting nothing, you're done. Otherwise, if they want to litigate, they have to do it within that window. So, when we have info per sellers and agents, the title company will often say, "Hey, your attorney didn't give me a certificate of trust. Your attorney didn't record an affidavit." So, now they know that you're self-represented. your fun went around. They see in the trust that a child has been disinherited. They're going to say, "Wait a minute. Did you get noticed?" And they're going to say, "What? What? What?" And now the whole sale is going to get hung up. You may even be in breach of contract because your agent may not even hit a trust sale in there. So now we've got a whole host of problems. Well, I'm slowing everything down if I get hired. I've got to go back and give notice. We're going to wait 120 days and then we're going to move. And [snorts] I'm not going to run to court. there's nothing that the judge can do for me. We have to go back to step one.

27:49 So, just to be clear, you're talking about the notice of the trust and then additionally the on a trust cell, there'll be a notice of proposed action if there's other heirs involved besides the administrator. so

28:02 You have to read the trust, give notice to every person named, every charity, every organization. Everyone physically typed out in the trust get the notice.

28:15 People name people, but they leave someone out. So I have to say to them, this says an equal share to Jennifer and Donald. And I'll say, "Oh, your mom just had two kids." They go, "Oh, no. Nicholas is not in here." I said, "Oh, well, where is he?" "Oh, mom didn't want him to get anything." So I have to go back and say, "Oh, mom had three kids." So it's nice in the trust when the trust says, "I have three children. I'm only providing for two." Nicholas just not being provided for. And she could put down a reason or not, but there has to be a mention. Or if we do a trust and then someone gets married and they don't do an amendment, I'm now married. We have someone that's been omitted. when you have someone omitted either on purpose or not, that omitted person's entitled to notice.

29:02 So, they can go back theoretically and sue if there's a house, they can push for their distribution. And if it's all been sold and liquidated, I guess they can sue the administrator for not noticing them and giving them the chance to contest. Even if they were meant to not get anything, they've really opened the door for all kinds of potential legal problems.

29:22 Yeah. Now, I mean, now this can be waved. We can send a packet to say we're supposed to give you notice. We understand that mom gave you life insurance money or mom bought you a house before

29:33 And you are getting nothing. Do you agree? You could sign a paper. But I don't want you to think like that. We want to do everything the right way. Right? So we want to get the trust activated activate. We want to get the bank account open. We want to give notice. We want to report to the assessor. We want to we want to do it all at once. It's like a rainbow. Do the whole thing at once. When is a notice of proposed action to sell property required?

30:01 It's not a notice to propose action to sell the property, but it's a notice that there's a trust. If the trust is not being monitored by the court, the trustee can just sell the property. If the trustee is experiencing problems with the beneficiary, that beneficiary has to make their objection known and then everything comes to a halt. It's hard because you can Well, let's talk about theory and practice. When someone passes away and I see them right away, the faster I do it, the less likely the beneficiary are going to challenge because they've not had time to sit and think and get upset. It's like ripping a band-aid off. Just do it. So, everybody's mad that mom died. Everyone's upset or say, "I give out notice and they're not opening envelopes." Oh, well, I've done my job. And then six months later they go, "Oh, I protest." You go, "Well, that's too bad. That house is a hot potato. It's empty. It's vacant. It's uninsured. It's in a trust. Go sell it. Just get rid of it." And if you're just fighting over cash, it's easier. But I've done nothing wrong, right? I've given notice. I've waited. And if my beneficiary grieving, didn't open the mail, doesn't understand, that's not on me. 120 days is a long time. It's four months. And we kind of have to, you know, judge it.

31:22 Most of my families already know when there's a fight. I can feel it. They know. Yeah. So we have to address it at that point. That was interesting.

31:31 You know, Jen, I've gone a little over time scheduled with you and I, it's so interesting because I, you know, we really just talked about what I call standard basic fundamentals. I mean, this is kind of like the basic blocking and tackling of trust administration. We didn't really get any detail. And look how much it was to cover. And I know I had to cut you off a few times to kind of focus on what I what I'm interested in most. And I don't mean to be disrespectful. I really respect you and want to learn on those topics. There's so much to do. And I think the thing I'd like to maybe bring it all to the end if I can say is so many people think they save money by doing it themselves. And you know, it doesn't mean necessary you have to hire an attorney for the rest of your life in the estate to manage everything, but it seems to me that people should at least start with a consult and say, "What do I need to do? What are the key steps? What can you do efficiently? What can I do on my own efficiently?" and get a handle that. So, talk a bit about when people come to you and say, "Oh, I'm just going to do it on my own." What's your, you know, what's the process?

32:30 Tell them, "Look, I hear you. I understand everything you're saying. I just tell them hire me to activate the trust. That's it. Let me do the notice. Let me get the EIN number for you. Let me recommend my banker. That'll be a good fit here. Let me do the form to the assessor and let me tell you what's going to happen with property taxes. Let me do it for you. You hire me, do the consultation, pay a little bit, 1,500, 2500, a little bit. I do the activation work and you're done.

32:57 You will come back to me if you need me. And you'll know, Jenny. You wouldn't believe it, right? and then we solve that problem. Otherwise, you're a golden. But if you want help at the end, I can help you at the end. Most of my clients enjoy that approach. Just the activation piece. I set you up. We customize my consultation for what you need in that trust and then you're done. Most of my clients when we do it that way, I never hear back from them until they're ready to set up their own trust.

33:27 And I say, you know what, that's fantastic. And I want to say that if you don't do that and you have one objection along the way, it's going to cost you way more than that consult is or that activation fee. So definitely worth it. I it's just, you know, again, I appreciate people doing their own work and I do appreciate, you know, trying to save money or be effective. At the same time, we want expertise and we want to recognize it when it can really make a difference online. So you know, again, I know Joe, we covered a lot, but we really covered some basics. I really appreciate your time here today on trust administration. And I always appreciate how giving you are. If you want more information from Jen or her team, tldlaw.com is a website, tldlaw.com. phone number [phone number shown on screen]. and Jennifer Sawday is also very active on LinkedIn. Definitely a salty post. And again, I just want to say you're going to get the straight scoop. She's she is not going to sugarcoat it. So if you want to go over there, you can learn some stuff. Jen, thanks again for being on the podcast. really appreciate you.

34:28 Yeah. Well, thank you so much. Yeah. And have a good day. I think I made it. You too. Thanks so much. And for the rest of you, this was [The Estate Planning Podcast]. We get together a week and talk with attorneys about either plan planning ahead of time or in this case once the plan's in place, how do we administer the trust. I think Jen gave us some great insights and some things to avoid. I hope you enjoyed it. Give me a like, a comment, send information if I can help in any way. at Bill Gross Probate on social media. As always, make today your best day ever. Thanks so much.